00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.03.17
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04:13:37 <Serg_Penguin> hi folks !
04:13:44 <Serg_Penguin> now from stable link :)
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05:27:03 <KRISHNA> hi ppl.
05:33:33 <Robert> Hi :)
05:36:48 <KRISHNA> is unicode supported in any forth impl. ?
05:37:06 <Robert> Eh, no idea.
05:37:18 <KRISHNA> ok.
05:37:23 * onetom_ hasnt met such an implementation
05:37:28 --- nick: onetom_ -> onetom
05:38:34 <KRISHNA> how good is string manipulation in forth ?
05:38:53 <Robert> Better than in BASIC. ;)
05:42:09 <Speuler> KRISHNA: www.forthfreak.de/stringstack
05:42:13 <Speuler> or
05:42:18 <Speuler> KRISHNA: www.forthfreak.net/stringstack
05:43:02 <Speuler> 'morning
05:44:25 <KRISHNA> sorry I never used BASIC
05:46:25 <Robert> Good. 
05:48:55 <KRISHNA> stringstack ?
05:49:04 <KRISHNA> a seperate stack for strings ?
05:49:36 <Speuler> right
05:49:45 <KRISHNA> portable ?
05:49:50 <Speuler> ans
05:49:55 <KRISHNA> ok ok
05:50:10 <KRISHNA> url unreachable !
05:50:14 <Speuler> (should be)
05:51:00 <Speuler> www.forthfreak.net
05:51:04 <Speuler> i can get there
05:55:51 <KRISHNA> ok whatz the ip ?
05:55:57 <KRISHNA> seems like a DNS prob.
05:56:53 <KRISHNA> ip for forthfreak.net please !
05:57:47 <onetom> KRISHNA: sec. hold on
05:57:53 <Speuler> can you get to  http://logilan.info/~l/stringstack.versions ?
05:58:11 <onetom> connection refused :/
05:58:26 <KRISHNA> its not an ip prob.
05:58:47 <Speuler> looks like an apache problem
05:58:53 <KRISHNA> yes.
05:59:06 <Speuler> ssh hangs trying to access the log
05:59:40 <KRISHNA> Speuler: did you implement stringstack ?
05:59:49 <Speuler> yes
06:00:25 <KRISHNA> ok. so the stack is implemented entirely in forth using cells. right ?
06:00:46 <KRISHNA> sorry for being so naive - I'm still a newbie.
06:00:46 <Speuler> string chars are in bytes. string len is cell
06:01:10 <Speuler> oh. on the stack, there's just a pointer to the strings, which are on the heap
06:01:33 <Speuler> if you dup a string, a reference counter is incremented
06:01:35 <KRISHNA> this is kinda OO
06:01:47 <KRISHNA> the stack acts like a VTABLE
06:01:50 <KRISHNA> ?
06:02:11 <Speuler> well, if call it behaving like a stack :)
06:02:14 <Speuler> i'd 
06:08:07 <Speuler> www.forthfreak.net should be ok now ?
06:12:05 <KRISHNA> yes.
06:12:43 <KRISHNA> but it says forthfreak.de ?
06:13:06 <Speuler> both domains point to the same ip
06:13:16 <Speuler> reverse dns should say bean-fw.net
06:14:19 <Speuler> it is just that net sounds somewhat more international
06:14:27 <KRISHNA> ok.
06:15:10 <KRISHNA> Speuler: why is string manipulation implemented on a stack as opposed to using the data stack ?
06:15:49 <Speuler> so you can have lots of string on it, and access them, without having to take care of the data on data stack
06:16:18 <KRISHNA> ok. is this a common idiom in forth ?
06:16:23 <Speuler> about the same reason why you got floats on a seperate stack
06:16:56 <Speuler> no, wouldn't say so
06:17:39 <Speuler> just felt like the right thing to do
06:18:26 <KRISHNA> i think the stack is useful coz of the lack of syntax - more so with value types - ?
06:18:47 <Speuler> bit the primitives in there could be modified for use without string stack.
06:18:59 <Speuler> but
06:19:21 <Speuler> problem w/o stack is, where do you put the string ?
06:19:46 <KRISHNA> true. that is where the lack of syntax comes in.
06:20:08 <Speuler> if you put them at pad, there's only one pad, thus you'd need a management system, ti keep string from being written into same address
06:20:50 <Speuler> putting them on string stack make them collision-free too
06:20:58 <KRISHNA> yes.
06:21:05 <Speuler> and i can use the primitives i'm used from numbers
06:21:10 <KRISHNA> so it does like an idiom
06:21:19 <KRISHNA> so it does look like an idiom
06:21:46 <Speuler> from that viewpoint, you may be right
06:22:10 <KRISHNA> when manipulating a number of value types, create a seperate stack and store the values there - prob. solved.
06:22:59 <Speuler> i don't want to end up having zillions of small stacks :)
06:23:16 <KRISHNA> but a few would defnly help.
06:23:43 <Speuler> it is common to implement float support by using an additional stac
06:23:45 <Speuler> k
06:24:25 <Speuler> but when it can be avoided, i tend to simulate additional stacks by putting data on an existing stack
06:25:42 <Speuler> for example, catch/throw doesn't use its own stack, but a linked list through frames on the return stack
06:26:12 <Speuler> there are implementations of catch, throw, alloting a seperate stack to those
06:27:20 <KRISHNA> is it possible to suspend execution in a word and jump elsewhere ?
06:27:46 <KRISHNA> something like a coroutine ?
06:27:50 <Speuler> just call another word
06:28:14 <Speuler> oh, you mean, by not returning to the calling word ?
06:28:34 <Speuler> where do you want to return to instead ?
06:28:37 <KRISHNA> yes.
06:29:00 <Speuler> catch/throw should do
06:29:10 <KRISHNA> i'll give another word as a param that can be used to return
06:29:29 <Speuler> : foo    key esc = if   5 throw then   ;
06:29:55 <Speuler> : bar  ['] foo catch   5 = if   ." escape pressed"  then   ." common code"
06:30:23 <KRISHNA> i'll have to run this thing to understand .
06:30:25 <Speuler> the "coroutine" would be code following catch
06:31:36 <KRISHNA> will the catch/throw mechanism resume or just escape to another word ?
06:31:42 <Speuler> throw stops execution immediately, and "jumps" (returns) to code following catch, cleaning up stacks, putting the throw value on stack
06:32:08 <Speuler> w/o throw, it is returned to catch too, with 0 on stack
06:32:14 <KRISHNA> so its an exception handling mechanism
06:32:19 <Speuler> 0 throw is effectively a no operation
06:32:32 <Speuler> yes
06:33:01 * KRISHNA is confused - plenty of reading needs to be done to understand forth ...
06:35:06 <Speuler> variable path    1 path !    : foo   path @ if ." path1"  1 throw then    ." path0" ;
06:35:28 <Speuler> : bar  ['] foo throw   if  ." path1" else ." path0" then   ;
06:35:43 <Speuler> 0 path !  cause bar to follow path0
06:35:48 <Speuler> 1 path !  follows path1
06:36:22 <Speuler> mistake ...
06:36:29 <Speuler> : bar  ['] foo catch   if  ." path1" else ." path0" then   ;
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07:06:03 <Klaw> when am i going to figure out the interpret/compile [] stuffs
07:06:13 <Klaw> it's taking awhile to sink in
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07:34:29 <gilbertdeb> hullo
07:35:45 <Robert> Hi gilbert
08:05:33 <gilbertdeb> there are more accurate snipers than me.
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10:34:28 <Robert> There you are!
10:34:32 <Robert> Been looking for you ;)
10:34:55 <Robert> I'm using IsForth for my Forth compiler (for the VM)... but I have a few problems.
10:35:28 <Robert> First of all, I simply replace the standard set of words (drop, :, ; etc.), so writing macros is hard... any ideas what to do about this?
10:35:56 <Robert> Also, currently I have to do this to push e.g. the number "123":  123 #
10:40:43 <gilbertdeb> are you talking to yourself again Robert?
10:41:12 <Robert> Yeah, of course.
10:41:18 <Robert> (Smartass...)
10:41:32 <gilbertdeb> :P
10:42:45 <I440r> what do you mean - writing macros ?
10:53:15 <Robert> I mean
10:53:52 <Robert> For my Forth... since the compiled code can't be run locally, I have to write everything similar to macros in IsForth
10:59:45 <I440r> erm you need to target compile it
10:59:53 <I440r> i.e. not compile it as an extension to isforth
11:01:30 <I440r> thats what ill need to do too when i write the meta compiler
11:04:48 <Robert> Target compile?
11:04:51 <Robert> What does that mean? :)
11:05:06 <I440r> yes. normally when forth compiles it ADDS what is compiled onto the end of itself
11:05:23 <I440r> what you need is for it to compile to some TAEGET buffrer 
11:05:55 <Robert> Oh, yeah. That's what I do.
11:06:03 <Robert> But I pollute the name space a bit.
11:06:13 <Robert> If I can solve that, I can just use the normal words.
11:07:06 <I440r> lol no - your compiling the CODE to a target but the headers are part of isforth - you need it ALL to be target compiled :/
11:07:35 <Robert> No.
11:07:54 <Robert> I want the headers to be a part of IsForth
11:07:58 <Robert> Makes things alot easier,
11:08:34 <I440r> but then your forth cant run WITHOUT isforth
11:08:40 <I440r> that makes your forth.... ISFORTH!!!
11:08:41 <I440r> lol
11:09:37 <gilbertdeb> s/lol/muhahahahaha
11:11:08 <Robert> I440r: Yeah
11:11:16 <Robert> I440r: An extention to IsForth
11:11:31 <Robert> I440r: Otherwise I'd have to write 4327832 parsing words myself and stuff
11:11:38 <Robert> I440r: /me lazy
11:11:56 <I440r> lol
11:12:00 <I440r> so... the point is ????
11:12:02 <I440r> heh
11:13:04 <Robert> To...make programs!
11:13:08 <Robert> It's kinda like machineforth.
11:13:20 <Robert> For my vm
11:15:49 <I440r> heh
11:18:40 <Robert> Yeees? :P
11:18:48 <Robert> It works fine.
11:19:06 <I440r> ive changed isforth a bit
11:19:13 <Robert> How?
11:19:25 <I440r> and found a REALY FUCKING SERIOUS porblem with the mmap syscall
11:20:03 <I440r> i allocated a block of "grows down" memory for the return stack - this effectivly places no limit on either parameter stack or return stack useage
11:20:46 <I440r> but whoever coded sys mmap has their head up their ass. a grows down block of memory will only grow if accessed through the esp register
11:20:57 <I440r> it might also require a PUSH - 
11:21:12 <I440r> if you access it via ebp it segfaults instead of growing the buffer
11:22:47 <I440r> if i could post to any news groups (other than thru google) i would complain BIG TIME about that 
11:22:53 <I440r> its fucking moronic
11:24:40 <Robert> Heh.
11:25:00 <Robert> You could listen to chuck and avoid 10MB stacks :P
11:25:25 <I440r> heh
11:27:18 <gilbertdeb> I440r: can you avoid using mmap?
11:27:21 <I440r> previously i was restricting BOTH stacks to liek 2k each heh
11:27:35 <I440r> no you cant. there is NO way other tham mmap to allocate memory in linux
11:27:45 <gilbertdeb> hmmm.
11:27:48 <I440r> i got it working
11:27:53 <gilbertdeb> does fasm have this problem as well?
11:27:58 <I440r> i do what most other forths do anyway
11:28:02 <I440r> xchg ebp, esp
11:28:04 <I440r>  push eax
11:28:09 <I440r>  xchg ebp,ssp
11:28:11 <I440r> erm esp
11:28:17 <I440r> that pushes eax onto the return stack
11:28:35 <I440r> but its an addition of alot of bullshit unwanted code and it pisses me off
11:30:08 <gilbertdeb> write in pure hex I440r write in pure octal then: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3gmn58%24rbk%40DGS.dgsys.com&output=gplain
11:30:12 <gilbertdeb> :D
11:31:28 <TreyB> I440r: why not issue an SS: segment override?
11:31:51 <I440r> because ebp defaults to ss:
11:32:14 <TreyB> I thought so.  The Linux kernel tests explicitly for ESP?
11:32:22 <I440r> mov [ebp], xxx is the same as es: mov [ebp], xxx
11:32:27 <I440r> it must
11:32:35 <I440r> or it tests expliicity for a PUSH
11:32:38 <I440r> one or other
11:32:54 <I440r> tunnel vision on their part 
11:34:28 <TreyB> C code uses ebp for the stack frame.  And alloca() does stack-based allocation.  All of that would break if your premise holds true.
11:34:57 <I440r> ive tested it - its true.
11:36:25 <TreyB> You use EBP for the return stack?
11:37:36 <TreyB> And ESP for the data stack?
11:39:20 <I440r> yes
11:40:12 <I440r> i messed with this for hours. after allocating a grows down buffer i did 2 test functions
11:40:15 <I440r> foo:
11:40:24 <I440r>   mov ecx, some large number
11:40:25 <TreyB> The special caching that modern x86 CPUs do for the return stack makes this an unfortunate choice.
11:40:28 <I440r> .L0:
11:40:34 <I440r>   mov [ebp], 0
11:40:38 <I440r>   sub ebp, 4
11:40:42 <I440r>  loop L0
11:40:49 <I440r> always segfaults
11:40:57 <I440r> but a PUSH doesnt
11:41:17 <I440r> im currently allocating a 4k return stack.
11:41:48 <I440r> : blah 0 begin dup>r 1+ dup 100000 = until abort" success" ;
11:41:49 <I440r> works
11:42:19 <I440r> because im doing the xchg ebp, esp trick all over
11:44:06 <TreyB> Out of curiosity, why not use ESP for the return stack and EBP for the data stack?
11:44:38 <I440r> because that would complecate a hell of alot of other words
11:44:42 <I440r> code +
11:44:47 <I440r>   xchg ebp, esp
11:44:49 <I440r>  pop eax
11:44:53 <I440r>  add ebx, eax
11:44:56 <I440r>  xchg ebp, esp
11:45:00 <I440r>  next end-code
11:45:18 <I440r> every word that pops anything off the stack or manipulates it in any way would become more complex
11:45:30 <I440r> even if i didnt need the xchg ebp, esp i would still need to do
11:45:34 <I440r>  mov eax, [ebp]
11:45:38 <I440r>  add ebp, byte 4
11:45:42 <I440r> add ebx, eax
11:45:42 <I440r> etc
11:45:50 * TreyB digs out some code where he used this assumption.
11:50:17 <TreyB> No luck so far.
11:50:21 <I440r> :)
11:51:06 <TreyB> I spent some time writing the primative words for a forth with this assumption.  I need to find the source file, but I may not have it on a machine I have turned on :-)
11:51:46 <I440r> heh
11:53:51 <gilbertdeb> I440r: is there gonna be a sparc isforth?
11:54:27 <gilbertdeb> or a mips isforth for that matter.
11:54:27 <I440r> only if i can get someone who can code it for me :)
11:54:34 <I440r> i dont have a sparc or a mips
11:54:34 <gilbertdeb> I have a sparc.
11:54:42 <gilbertdeb> I am spoiling to learn sparc asm.
11:54:46 <I440r> i seriously doubt there will ever bee a bsd isforth either :(
11:55:01 <gilbertdeb> only thing stopping me is it uses gas.
11:55:10 <gilbertdeb> why won't there be a bsd isforth?
11:55:34 <I440r> i want there to be a freebsd version but doing lots of different versions is a HUGE task because i absolutely flat REFUSE to have ANYTHING what so ever to do with conditional compilation
11:55:46 <I440r> im not going to have 289479824657985 different versions of isforth all in the same sources
11:55:51 <gilbertdeb> I440r: which asm are you using? nasm?
11:55:57 <I440r> each version will be in its own source tree
11:56:00 <I440r> yes im using nasm
11:56:09 <gilbertdeb> so nasm is the one causing the problems right?
11:56:16 <gilbertdeb> the incompatibilties?
11:57:35 <I440r> no
11:57:40 <I440r> the problem isnt nasm
11:57:56 <I440r> i can use any assembler (except gas - theres no fucking way i will ever use that abomination)
11:58:32 <TreyB> Kernel API.
12:00:12 <gilbertdeb> I440r: the only asm on the sparc is gas :D
12:00:30 <gilbertdeb> there is ofcourse openboot forth so it already has a forth.
12:15:39 <I440r> heh
12:15:55 <I440r> then someone needs to write a REAL assembler for the sparc
12:16:04 <I440r> not just a "backend to the c compiler" pile of shit
12:21:50 <gilbertdeb> yeah 'someone'. 
12:22:06 <gilbertdeb> but what should the syntax look like?
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12:22:19 <gilbertdeb> some people are dissatisfied with the x86 asm syntax
12:22:30 <gilbertdeb> and a lot of people POSITIVELY HATE the gas syntax.
12:27:24 <Speuler> shouldn't it be comparatively easy to write an asm2asm translator, to generate gas source from intel notation source ?
12:28:06 <Speuler> using awk, or perl, or alike 
12:28:13 <gilbertdeb> Speuler: it is too important to hate gas :)
12:28:26 <Speuler> well. one still can hate it
12:29:19 <gilbertdeb> I always thought the solution to having to write in asm was forth.
12:29:38 <I440r> heh
12:30:58 <Speuler> when i don't need a full asm in forth, i do something like   : mov_[addr]_eax  ( addr -- )   opcode c, opcode c,  ... ;
12:31:23 <I440r> heh
12:31:38 <Speuler> i.e don't factor out adressing modes or operands
12:31:46 <Speuler> but code it into mnemonic name
12:32:11 <Speuler> no good pf course of you need many mnemonics, or a full assembler
12:32:13 <Speuler> of
12:32:47 <I440r> i cant post to clf :(
12:32:59 <Speuler> try google groups
12:34:25 <gilbertdeb> why does google groups take so long to post though?
12:34:30 <gilbertdeb> at least 9 hrs!
12:45:13 <Speuler> 3-9 they say
12:45:37 <gilbertdeb> with a strong preference for the 9 apparently.
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13:30:13 <Fahr> speuler, u daar?
13:30:18 <Speuler> jo
13:30:22 <Speuler> dag fahr
13:30:25 <Fahr> lo
13:30:44 <I440r> hi fahr do you code forth ?
13:30:53 <Fahr> nope
13:31:00 <Speuler> (not yet :)
13:31:01 <Fahr> just looking for Speuler, sorry
13:31:02 <I440r> or speak english ?? (doesnt matter either way heh)
13:31:08 <Robert> Haha.
13:31:13 <Robert> Meanie
13:31:14 <I440r> thats ok
13:31:23 <I440r> non forthers are welcome in here, were not anal about that sort of thing :/
13:31:38 <Fahr> good :P
13:31:54 <Fahr> for work I program VC++, I await my ban... :P
13:32:12 <I440r> lol
13:32:16 <Speuler> magic word
13:32:23 <Speuler> wrong answer :)
13:32:24 <I440r> you deserve one - but like i said,....
13:32:26 <TreyB> work
13:32:31 <I440r> besides thers hope for you yet, you joined the channel :)
13:32:47 <Fahr> yeah, well, in non-work life I am much of a Linux person
13:33:01 <Fahr> but sometimes one's gotta do what one's told to do...
13:33:59 <Robert> Good! IsForth is for Linux, you know.
13:34:13 <Fahr> I thought Forth was Linux only ?
13:34:35 <Speuler> bull
13:34:57 <Fahr> ok, my bad
13:35:45 <I440r> no - forth is everywhere. isforth (my compiler) is linux only
13:36:37 <Fahr> cool, you code compilers?
13:37:03 <Speuler> hardly anybody who doesn't, here :)
13:37:26 <Fahr> isn't that extremely complicated?
13:37:27 <I440r> heh
13:37:31 <I440r> no. 
13:37:35 <I440r> if it was c it would be 
13:37:38 <I440r> but this is forth
13:37:59 <Fahr> yeah, but you coded it in asm, it says
13:38:04 <I440r> 99% of all forth coders code their own compiler at one time or another. or they very heavilly modify someone elses
13:38:26 <I440r> the kernel is coded in assembler. the rest is coded in forth
13:38:44 <Fahr> so, what doer Forth offer that other programming languages lack?
13:38:50 <I440r> the inner core of the compiler is mostly assembler.
13:39:03 <I440r> do you code assembler ?
13:39:10 <I440r> if you dont your not a real coder. most c codres are NOT real coders
13:39:17 <I440r> interactive development
13:39:17 <I440r> watch
13:39:24 <I440r> : blah lots of forth code in here ;
13:39:31 <I440r> i just created a new function called blah
13:39:39 <I440r> now i cant test it interactivy and debug it
13:39:46 <I440r> when it works i can use it...
13:39:46 <I440r> : foo ...... blah ..... ;
13:40:04 <I440r> now i created a wored called foo that calls the already debugged blah
13:40:04 <I440r> now i can debug foo
13:40:24 <I440r> at each stage of development everything that has gone before is already fully debugged
13:40:47 <Fahr> hmm
13:40:54 <Fahr> so it's kind of on-the-fly compiling
13:41:01 <I440r> no more "write 50 thousand megs of code, wait 3 weeks for it to compile and link" and then tryh debug
13:41:08 <Speuler> incremental compilation is the word
13:41:18 <Fahr> sounds cool
13:41:20 <Speuler> leads to incremental development
13:41:23 <Fahr> and complicated, but overal cool
13:41:24 <I440r> compiled forth is about half the size of the equiv assembler 
13:41:37 <Fahr> that's really amazing
13:41:38 <I440r> actually thats not quite true any more, not for a 32 bit forth....
13:41:49 <Fahr> I always thought ASM was the smallest compiled format available
13:41:54 <I440r> for a 16 but forth any non trivial application will compile to about half the size of the equiv assembler
13:42:02 <I440r> forth is extensible
13:42:07 <Speuler> byte-threaded forth can be pretty compact, even on 32 bit platforms
13:42:21 <Speuler> but some people refuse to call byte-threaded forth "forth"
13:42:32 <I440r> well it probably is more efficient that in a 32 bit forth but there are more 16 bit forths than 32 bit
13:42:54 <I440r> yes - token threading
13:43:48 <Fahr> well, it all sounds very interesting
13:44:02 <Fahr> I'll look into it when I have some spare time
13:44:13 <Fahr> most of my development is currently limited to desktop applications
13:44:22 <Fahr> I never really did any lowlever programming
13:44:28 <I440r> also, forth is UNTYPED and has "user defined syntax"
13:45:10 <I440r> people who have never coded low level should not be coding high
13:45:21 <I440r> you realy should lean assembler to be a good coder
13:45:55 <Fahr> I agree
13:46:02 <Fahr> but ASM is so deadly HUGE and complicated
13:46:08 <I440r> assembler is FAR FAR simpler than c/c++
13:46:22 <Fahr> well, also consider I NEVER studied for what I know :P
13:46:53 <Fahr> I just started VB as a scriptkiddie, then Delphi and VC++ and PHP...
13:46:59 <Robert> Awww.
13:47:06 <I440r> no. its SIMPLE - not complex
13:47:11 <Robert> I440r and Speuler will guide you to the right path.
13:47:24 <Fahr> I'm sure they will ;)
13:47:26 <I440r> ooh you do php ??
13:47:31 <Fahr> yup I do
13:47:39 <Fahr> it's what I mainly do at work really
13:47:50 <Fahr> PHP and VC++ for online/offline database interaction
13:48:05 <Fahr> import and export modules between a work DBase and an online eCommerce DBase
13:48:09 <Fahr> that's my job :P
13:48:26 <I440r> i want my projects web site to use php 
13:48:26 <I440r> but i cant be bothered to learn it :/
13:48:46 * I440r needs a job :(
13:48:49 <Robert> Well... I converted mine FROM php to straight html.
13:48:58 <Robert> You can become a web designer! ;)
13:49:27 <I440r> thats boring :/
13:49:28 <Fahr> well, I prefer static HTML, but for functionality one needs PHP or ASP or Perl or whatever
13:49:34 <Robert> (Since your isforth site has been in the Top Ten Ugliest Web Pages for ages ;)
13:49:36 <I440r> im a CODER !!!
13:49:38 <Fahr> I need dynamic content
13:49:48 <Fahr> hehe, same here :PPP
13:49:54 <I440r> i know. hehe
13:49:55 <Fahr> I REALLY can't do design
13:49:59 <Fahr> only background coding
13:50:02 <Speuler> i've put forth-based cgi together
13:50:13 <I440r> i just need ANY content hehe
13:50:27 <Fahr> well, PHP is really simple
13:50:28 <Speuler> supports javascript mouse-over
13:50:30 <Fahr> I mean; it's script
13:50:36 <Fahr> took me maybe 5 days to master
13:50:41 <Fahr> given you know SQL
13:50:44 <I440r> if i can interface apache to my forth ill be able to have forth embedded in web pages. ASSEMBLEWR TOO!!!!
13:50:52 <Speuler> I440r: you can
13:51:02 <Speuler> I440r: forthcgi is on download
13:51:06 <I440r> i dunno nuttin about databases :P
13:51:14 <Speuler> is not very polished right now
13:51:14 <Speuler> but works
13:51:20 <Fahr> well, databases are usually essential in programming PHP :P
13:51:38 <Speuler> I440r: www.forthfreak.net
13:51:46 <Speuler> under misc
13:55:42 <Fahr> say I440r, how long did it take you to learn ASM ?
13:59:24 * I440r goes to look
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14:01:04 <Fahr> Excess Flood ?
14:01:06 <Fahr> what was that about ?
14:01:18 <I440r> my network cable on this laptop keeps disconnecting itself
14:01:23 <I440r> if i move it disconnects
14:01:23 <Fahr> hmm I know the problwm
14:01:24 <Fahr> em
14:02:27 <Fahr> so what about ASM then ?
14:02:34 <Speuler> asm is easy
14:02:45 <Speuler> writing complex things in asm is difficult
14:02:58 <Fahr> well... here's a goal;
14:03:00 <Speuler> cause you need to do everything yourself
14:03:08 <Speuler> every detail
14:03:10 <Fahr> I want the ASM loader code to execute a file from memory
14:03:21 <Fahr> without writing it back on HD before having an OS exec it
14:04:12 <Speuler> ram disk ?
14:04:26 <Fahr> for instance
14:04:35 <Fahr> or a TFileStream; as created by Delphi
14:04:41 <Fahr> I have a memhandle, so I know where it is
14:04:55 <Speuler> jmp addr
14:05:06 <Fahr> addr  == handle?
14:05:13 <Speuler> not necessarily
14:05:17 <Fahr> hmm
14:05:19 <Speuler> can be
14:05:24 <Fahr> and jmp addr   is it ??
14:05:33 <Speuler> yes
14:05:39 <Fahr> oh
14:05:45 <Speuler> if there's code at addr, it will be executed after jmp
14:05:53 <Fahr> then why does something like UPX have complete ASM files ?
14:06:11 <Speuler> upx = exec compressor/decompressor ?
14:06:20 <Fahr> yes
14:06:23 <I440r> ?
14:06:23 <Fahr> there's a source
14:06:32 <Fahr> for win32 it has a complete ASM loader file
14:06:37 <Fahr> to execute a file from mem
14:06:42 <Fahr> MUCH more than just    jmp addr
14:06:51 <Speuler> afaik, upx decompresses in mem, and runs from mem
14:07:13 <Fahr> I think the decompression is not coded in ASM
14:07:24 <Speuler> i think it is. 2 k overhead
14:07:35 <Fahr> huh? overhead/
14:07:51 <Speuler> adds 2 k of code to the compressed executable
14:08:38 <Fahr> ah I see
14:08:43 <Fahr> it does do decompression
14:13:31 <I440r> i just found a copy of "termcap and terminfo" in ebay!!!! yee ha :)
14:13:41 <I440r> now to see if my dad will BID on it for me :/
14:13:44 <Speuler> snipe it
14:13:57 <Fahr> hmm, a very quick test in Delphi gives me an Access Violation :(
14:14:31 <Speuler> jumped to a non-executable segment
14:15:08 <Speuler> data is often set as non-executable
14:15:11 <Fahr> I guess so... :S
14:15:18 <Fahr> then Handle is NOT the mem address
14:15:21 <Fahr> I'm afraid
14:16:48 <Fahr> hmm
14:16:58 <Fahr> one would expect that a pointer to an object is in fact its handle...
14:17:04 <Fahr> or mem address
14:18:11 <Speuler> a handle can also be an index into a table of addresses
14:18:22 <I440r> isforth defaults to allocating memory as +rwx :)
14:18:22 <I440r> tho you can change this
14:18:41 <Fahr> hmm
14:18:58 <Speuler> or a pointer to a structure which includes the address
14:19:00 <Fahr> well, I wouldn't know how to get a memory address from this object then :S
14:19:32 <Speuler> ' object :)
14:19:43 <Fahr> well, it's most definately not recognised as a structure or object...
14:19:51 <Fahr> does any of you know some Delphi/Kylix?
14:20:05 <Robert> I've used Deplhi.
14:20:07 <Robert> *hides*
14:20:08 * Speuler doesn't
14:20:23 <Fahr> ok, then take a look at this;
14:20:23 <Fahr> ==
14:20:26 <Fahr>   FS := TFileStream.Create('e:\blindwrite_full_setup.exe', fmOpenRead);
14:20:26 <Fahr>   Addr := @FS;
14:20:26 <Fahr>   asm
14:20:26 <Fahr>     JMP Addr
14:20:26 <Fahr>   end;
14:20:28 <Fahr>   FS.Free;
14:20:30 <Fahr> ==
14:20:34 <Fahr> one would expect it to work
14:21:21 <Speuler> exe address is probably not on offset 0
14:21:34 <Fahr> what do you mean ?
14:21:52 <Speuler> jmp address jumps to the first address of object
14:22:08 <Speuler> not sure whether it is code there
14:22:42 <Speuler> with msdos style headers, there would be a cd 20
14:22:57 <Speuler> which is code for  interrupt $20
14:23:12 <Speuler> you can abort com programs with that
14:23:16 <Speuler> but not exe
14:23:24 <Fahr> ok
14:23:36 <Speuler> com programs start at $100
14:23:42 <Speuler> but exe bot necessarily
14:23:46 <Speuler> not
14:23:53 <Fahr> hmm
14:24:06 <Fahr> so how do I find out where it starts? :S
14:24:09 <Speuler> the exe map contains the exec address somewhere
14:24:19 <Speuler> don't know exactly where
14:24:20 <Fahr> and where to jump to, for that matter
14:24:42 <Fahr> and if I do this on a COM file it should work, in theory?
14:25:03 <Speuler> loading without executing is an undocumented function in msdos
14:25:11 <Speuler> reserved for debuggers :)
14:25:18 <Fahr> drats
14:25:51 <Speuler> jumping to addr+$100 could work with com files, yes
14:26:11 <Speuler> or, load at offset $100
14:26:37 <Speuler> the com map is not part of the file, but the offsets in a com file are set to $100 as base address
14:26:55 <Speuler> the psp, it is called (first 256 bytes)
14:27:15 <Speuler> contains things like the commandline
14:27:24 <Fahr> hmm
14:27:33 <Fahr> still Access Violation :S
14:28:39 <Speuler> mark program start with something you'd recognize, check whether it is where you jump to
14:29:34 <Speuler> for example , $90 is nop
14:29:54 <Speuler> put some nops there, see whether they are at your entry point
14:30:15 <Speuler> brb
14:30:39 <Fahr> uhm, nops? :S
14:30:50 <Fahr> remember I don't have any COMs I progged mysqld
14:30:54 <Fahr> *myself
14:31:15 <Fahr> and I dunno ASM :P
14:31:24 <Fahr> this is my first lesson
14:31:28 <Fahr> so to say
14:33:59 <Fahr> hmm, the pointer gives $1480A8
14:34:04 <Fahr> is that a possible value?
14:35:18 <Fahr> ah nevermind, I'll play on tomorrow
14:35:23 <Fahr> right now I'm gonna sleep
14:35:27 <Fahr> bye people :)
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14:51:05 <I440r> ho wossname
14:52:26 <wossname> hello
14:55:09 <Speuler> hi woss
14:56:03 <wossname> hi speuler :)
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15:21:55 <bubba1034> Anyone here?
15:23:48 <Robert> Yes
15:23:52 <Robert> But not for long.
15:23:55 * Robert prepares to go to bed.
15:24:08 <I440r> hi
15:24:12 <I440r> bubba codes forth ?
15:24:33 <bubba1034> A couple of days ago I asked if Forth was a good "scripting" language.
15:24:52 <bubba1034> I really couldn't say what I meant, but now I can.
15:24:52 <I440r> it is :)
15:24:55 <I440r> or - it can be
15:25:18 <bubba1034> Say my boss comes to me with a project. He wants it in a "mainline" language.
15:25:31 <I440r> im working towards having isforth useable as a scripting language similar to bash or even for use in web pages
15:25:40 <I440r> ok
15:25:52 <bubba1034> C/C++/Java/Perl/PHP on the odd side Python or Ruby.
15:25:54 <Robert> Speuler is working in the opposite direction, converting bash to a forth!
15:26:22 <bubba1034> So I start by writing low level C. Which I need to write tests for.
15:26:40 <bubba1034> So I need a language where I can call C routines.
15:27:00 <I440r> that would be possible in forth - if you added the capability
15:27:07 <bubba1034> THen I get higher and higher, and I need to see if code "pastes" well together.
15:27:27 <bubba1034> Eventually I might need to script COm objects.
15:27:40 <I440r> btw - is this rhetorical ?
15:27:50 <I440r> or are you doing this NOW - for work ?
15:27:55 <bubba1034> Yes and no. 
15:28:01 <I440r> my isforth isnt ready for this yet - will be a while before it is too
15:28:02 <bubba1034> Definitely not *now*.
15:28:17 <I440r> i would suggest just doing the whole thing in forth or even assembler
15:28:23 <I440r> forget c/c++ bleh
15:28:42 <bubba1034> The point is that I'm looking for a language where I can do prototypes like this.
15:28:59 <bubba1034> Then replace with C?C++ to satisfy my boss.
15:29:57 <bubba1034> I440r: Unfortunately my boss won't forget C/C++.
15:30:09 <I440r> i didnt think he would :)
15:30:30 <I440r> tell him this. take any non trivial project. you code it in c++ and ill code it in forth.
15:30:40 <I440r> you might take 6 years, ill take 3 weeks
15:30:46 <I440r> ive SEEN that first hand
15:31:02 <I440r> ive seen a project take 6 years that i could have done in forth in 3 weeks
15:31:05 <I440r> literally
15:33:44 <bubba1034> I've seen it go both ways ( not with Forth but with other languages ).
15:34:16 <bubba1034> It helps to have good programmers.
15:34:21 <I440r> ya
15:34:45 <bubba1034> So can Forth handle this kind of stuff?
15:38:07 <I440r> it can if you can handle adding it to a given forth compiler
15:39:07 <bubba1034> Forth compilers don't come with this capability?
15:41:18 <I440r> not sure if there are any that do. but they CAN do it
15:43:27 <bubba1034> aaaaHey. It gets complicated. You have to be able to access object files, shared object files/dll. You have to translate C strings to Forth strings, C ints to Forth ints, C structs to ...
15:43:37 <bubba1034> It can take quite a lot of work.
15:44:09 <I440r> yes
15:44:14 <I440r> and it might not be worth it :/
15:48:28 <bubba1034> Can you recommend something that runs on both Linux and Windows?
15:50:47 <I440r> erm... 
15:50:52 <I440r> yes
15:51:01 <I440r> if you want to fork for a commercial forth compiler
15:51:10 <I440r> well - there are linux and windows versions of it
15:53:32 <bubba1034> Well... the way I look at it, is free for learning, but pay when I actually use it commercially.
15:53:51 <bubba1034> The first language I looked at was Smalltalk, and they make that arrangement.
15:54:01 <bubba1034> So I'm spoiled ;)
15:54:18 <I440r> heh
15:54:36 <I440r> do a web search for "marcel hendrix" or it might be "hendrics"
15:54:37 <I440r> i forget
15:54:53 <I440r> he sells a commercial forht compiler that has both windows and linux versions
15:54:57 <I440r> its also heavilly optimizing
15:55:24 <I440r> and might have what you are looking for
15:55:54 <bubba1034> Is iot the one on sourceforge?
15:56:50 <I440r> no heh
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16:02:22 <bubba1034> Hmmm. iForth?
16:02:50 <I440r> yes
16:03:06 <I440r> note.. not related to my "IsForth" heh
16:03:40 <bubba1034> Doesn't seem that bad price wise ( Franz Lisp is like $5000 per seat ).
16:04:43 <I440r> ive not looked at the price for iforth
16:04:54 <I440r> write marcel with what you need and see if his compiler supports it
16:04:59 <I440r> or how much it would be to add it
16:05:13 <bubba1034> $100 for three compilers ( Dos Win, Linux ).
16:05:14 <I440r> im POSATIVE he would be reasonable about it
16:05:20 <I440r> thats realy good!
16:08:00 <bubba1034> Have to get going now. Thanks.
16:08:02 <bubba1034> Bye
16:08:04 --- quit: bubba1034 ()
16:14:36 <I440r> no prob :)
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18:57:29 <gilbertbsd> hehehe
18:57:50 <gilbertbsd> Oh hey gilbert :D
19:00:25 <gilbertbsd> bah
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19:59:25 <gilbertdeb> hullo
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20:27:49 <gilbertdeb> shhhh
20:29:01 * bubba1034 nods silently
20:31:22 <gilbertdeb> have you seen bashforth?
20:32:28 <bubba1034> NO. I presume it either translates bash scripts to forth programs or is a forth program that interprets bash.
20:32:40 <gilbertdeb> www.forthfreak.net 
20:32:54 <gilbertdeb> it is a forth written in bash by speuler.
20:34:24 <bubba1034> Euwww. Must be terribly slow.
20:34:34 <gilbertdeb> :)
20:34:37 <gilbertdeb> try it and see.
20:38:21 <bubba1034> I just stopped by to see if I would like forth. Can you recommend learning materials and an implementation that runs on Linux and WIndows.
20:40:02 <gilbertdeb> a bunch.
20:40:12 <gilbertdeb> hold on a sec lemme see.
20:40:20 <gilbertdeb> ah first, you can run isforth.
20:40:25 <gilbertdeb> also gforth is available ...
20:40:34 <gilbertdeb> and of course bashforth.
20:41:06 <bubba1034> Now bashforth would be slow on Windows, because bash is slow on Windows.
20:41:13 <gilbertdeb> for windows, you can download f-pc
20:41:22 <gilbertdeb> I believe eforth also runs on there.
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20:41:53 <gilbertdeb> hi krishna
20:41:56 <bubba1034> One that runs on both?
20:42:08 <gilbertdeb> ummm possibly gforth.
20:42:16 <gilbertdeb> but it might need cygwin on windows.
20:42:24 <bubba1034> Hi krishna. Do you live in Chicago?
20:42:38 <gilbertdeb> KRISHNA has a bunch of bookmarks for learning forth :D
20:43:05 <bubba1034> Ahh. I asked because I met a programmer named Krishna two weeks ago.
20:43:35 <gilbertdeb> okay see this: http://ficl.sourceforge.net/ficl.html#links
20:43:58 <KRISHNA> hi guys!
20:44:03 <KRISHNA> I'm from India
20:45:45 <gilbertdeb> this too bubba. http://www.geocities.com/matteo_vitturi/english/spectraforth.htm
20:45:53 <gilbertdeb> bubba1034: how did you hear of forth?
20:47:11 <KRISHNA> is it possible to produce standalone executables ?
20:47:36 <gilbertdeb> I am sure it is possible. 
20:47:40 <bubba1034> A long long time ago I owned a C44 and bought a Forth for it. Then I bought a book. But before I could try it, I sold the C64 for an Atari ST. 
20:47:43 <gilbertdeb> I have never tried it.
20:47:54 <gilbertdeb> which book did you buy?
20:48:12 <Speuler> 'morning
20:48:17 <gilbertdeb> hi speuler.
20:48:22 <bubba1034> I don't remember the title. I think the author was named Brodie.
20:48:24 <Speuler> hi gilb!
20:48:32 <gilbertdeb> bubba1034: it is a legendary book.
20:48:36 <gilbertdeb> I hope you didn't get rid of it.
20:48:40 <bubba1034> Looked for it, but can't find it.
20:48:45 <bubba1034> Sigh.
20:48:57 <gilbertdeb> bubba1034: if you did, you might have to pay up to $ 125 on abebooks for either of them.
20:48:59 <Speuler> stand-alone ?
20:49:10 <Speuler> what os ?
20:49:17 <KRISHNA> gilbertdeb: have you actually read SF & TF ?
20:49:26 <gilbertdeb> KRISHNA: I bought two copies yesterday
20:49:27 <KRISHNA> I could'nt find them
20:49:34 <gilbertdeb> they will get here by the end of the week from ebay.
20:49:37 <KRISHNA> whatz so special ?
20:49:45 <gilbertdeb> KRISHNA: Speuler read them and he liked them.
20:49:48 <gilbertdeb> you may ask him.
20:50:00 <KRISHNA> whatz so special about these books ? Speuler ?
20:50:16 <Speuler> starting forth is beginner friendly. fun to read
20:50:36 <Speuler> some cartoon characters in between, which represent different words
20:50:38 <gilbertdeb> KRISHNA some people are incredibly crazy about it. I shall find out when I get it.
20:50:48 <KRISHNA> i also saw a long thread on c.l.f
20:50:49 <Speuler> nice style
20:51:04 <gilbertdeb> KRISHNA: I was just about to mention that as well but you've been doing your homework.
20:51:10 <Speuler> such as the character for "forget"
20:51:10 <bubba1034> The thing is that I tend to jump in feet first. I spend a few weeks reading then start to write
20:51:25 <bubba1034> a "real world" program in it.
20:51:35 <KRISHNA> me too!
20:51:39 <gilbertdeb> you can write an OS if you want.
20:51:58 <KRISHNA> too complicated for my
20:52:01 <KRISHNA> s/my/me
20:52:18 <gilbertdeb> you can write a forth :)
20:52:24 <gilbertdeb> its the favorite thing of forthers to do.
20:52:36 <Speuler> on page i-don't-know, there that masked cartoon character, representing "forget". looks like a burglar. it says "forget you ever saw me"
20:52:59 <KRISHNA> where can I find stuff on the various threading techniques ?
20:53:01 <Speuler> twenty pages later, it appears again, saying "i TOLD ya to forget me!"
20:53:23 <Speuler> that's just good humour
20:53:43 <bubba1034> sigh. A lisper writing a lisp op a schemer writing a scheme is a thing to do too.
20:53:44 <gilbertdeb> http://www.figuk.plus.com/build/heart.htm
20:54:07 <gilbertdeb> http://www.zetetics.com/bj/papers/moving1.htm
20:54:27 <gilbertdeb> http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/threaded-code.html
20:54:36 <gilbertdeb> but the original papers were published in ACM.
20:54:51 <gilbertdeb> you might find the references on the last link posted.
20:55:20 <gilbertdeb> bubba1034: you can write practically anything in forth of course.
20:55:41 <gilbertdeb> it appears to be incredibly famous amongst embedded chip programmers too.
20:55:47 <bubba1034> Me I want to write prgrams that users want. More money in that.'
20:56:07 <gilbertdeb> ah for the money!
20:56:13 <gilbertdeb> lemme know when you find something 'they' want.
20:57:06 <bubba1034> I ask them. ONe at a time. I'm not smart enough to figure out what they want. Or I would be rich.
20:57:30 <gilbertdeb> what have they said so far.
20:57:32 <gilbertdeb> ?
20:58:29 <bubba1034> Depends. It's mostly been C/C++. A HTTP proxy, a web spider, a program that reads of flash
20:58:57 <bubba1034> cards and makes COM objects for the users, 
20:59:30 <bubba1034> an ( telephone ) operator system for foreign switches, a voice verification application.
20:59:40 <bubba1034> You want me to go on.
20:59:52 <gilbertdeb> telephone operator?
20:59:59 <gilbertdeb> forth might like that :)
21:00:15 <gilbertdeb> wait, are these things YOU have written or things they say they want?
21:00:35 <bubba1034> It was mostly MFC. It connected operators to phon switches and let them do stuff.
21:00:59 <bubba1034> They say then I write. Many involve many people.
21:01:09 <bubba1034> Like the operator thing.
21:01:55 <gilbertdeb> thats good.
21:02:25 <gilbertdeb> so do you suppose you sold your brodie book?
21:03:01 <bubba1034> Probably. I was a student back then.
21:03:13 <bubba1034> Not even a CS student, a physics student.
21:03:41 <gilbertdeb> forth was born in an observatory.
21:03:45 <gilbertdeb> you are in good company.
21:04:02 <gilbertdeb> but that was several cocoa seasons ago.
21:06:22 <bubba1034> Yeah. THree years ago I was happy with C++, but then I started looking at other languages to do tasks to simple for C++.
21:06:35 <gilbertdeb> too simple?
21:06:46 <gilbertdeb> like what kinda stuff?
21:06:54 <bubba1034> I've gone through Python, Ruby, Smalltalk, LIsp, OCaml.
21:07:18 <KRISHNA> all of them are terrific
21:07:29 <gilbertdeb> this is pretty good too: http://compilers.iecc.com/comparch/article/93-09-080
21:07:30 <bubba1034> Finding the links/shortcuts that don't have an associated file on a Windows machine/
21:07:53 <gilbertdeb> hah isn't that an exercise in walking through the registry?
21:08:39 <bubba1034> KNow searching the hd for files ending in lnk, then making some COM calls.
21:09:03 <gilbertdeb> that sounds like a scripting job.
21:09:09 <gilbertdeb> did you use vbscript?
21:09:38 <bubba1034> Another one is a CGI script that lists all the entries in a specified dierectory.
21:10:51 <bubba1034> Because I download a lot of web pages that I put on my own server.
21:11:03 <gilbertdeb> in windows?
21:11:32 <bubba1034> NO that one is linux.
21:11:50 <bubba1034> I have hundreds of these little programs I need.
21:12:50 <KRISHNA> I'm a chess freak and have quite a few chess utils in mind.
21:13:45 <bubba1034> Yawn. IT's been a long day. Time for me to go. 
21:13:49 <bubba1034> Thanks.
21:14:22 <gilbertdeb> no problema
21:14:33 <gilbertdeb> KRISHNA: vchess utilities?
21:15:05 <KRISHNA> vchess ?
21:15:10 <gilbertdeb> error
21:15:22 --- part: bubba1034 left #forth
21:15:25 <gilbertdeb> chess
21:17:00 <KRISHNA> a sample idea: build a chess board with pressure sensors under the squares so that when a move is made, it is transmitted to the computer where it is picked up by the software and dislayed on the screen - this combo of s/w and h/w can be used for demonstration boards in chess tournaments.
21:17:17 <gilbertdeb> ah interesting.
21:17:32 <gilbertdeb> possible embedded chip project.
21:17:37 <gilbertdeb> forth is right up your alley :)
21:17:43 <KRISHNA> the problem is I hardly know any electronics. But a friend has promised to help me out
21:18:08 <KRISHNA> actually something like a mouse 
21:20:15 <Speuler> hmm.. for demonstration you want the pieces have individual markers, so the sensors can pick up "white pawn" or "black bishop"
21:20:48 <Speuler> you want to be able to set up a board, without having to tell the computer which piece is where
21:21:10 <KRISHNA> why ?
21:21:17 <KRISHNA> the state can be maintained in the S/W
21:21:33 <Speuler> cause you don't necessarily start from initial position, but you put on problems too
21:22:24 <KRISHNA> yes, but it makes things complicated.
21:22:35 <Speuler> is possible
21:22:41 <Speuler> even with pressure sensort
21:22:44 <Speuler> sors
21:22:48 <KRISHNA> you can still manually setup the pieces on the S/W as well
21:23:02 <Speuler> would that be elegant ?
21:23:09 <KRISHNA> by using the piece's weight ?
21:23:26 <Speuler> much nicer of the computer knows what kind of piece is where
21:23:55 <Speuler> pieces, having a individual footprints
21:24:01 <KRISHNA> elegant indeed - but cost ?
21:24:11 <Speuler> footprint easy.
21:24:19 <Speuler> pressure sensor maybe not.
21:24:30 <Speuler> thinking of piezoelectric foil
21:24:32 <KRISHNA> alternatives ?
21:24:49 <Speuler> magnetic
21:24:59 <Speuler> or
21:25:01 <KRISHNA> how to transmit the moves ?
21:25:06 <Speuler> capacitive 
21:25:07 <gilbertdeb> sensors.
21:25:16 <gilbertdeb> capacitive? capacitors?
21:25:29 <Speuler> oscillators inder the board.
21:25:46 <Speuler> pieces modify the oscillator frequency
21:25:52 <gilbertdeb> you could also just make the move and type it out on a keyboard simultaneously :O
21:26:07 <Speuler> what keyboard :) ?
21:26:11 <KRISHNA> that defeats the whole purpose of the idea
21:26:27 <gilbertdeb> just kidding man.
21:26:34 <KRISHNA> ok
21:27:08 <KRISHNA> Speuler: in that case, a A2D converter is required isnt it ?
21:27:52 <Speuler> should be ways to get around adcs
21:28:31 <Speuler> say, footprint gives digital encoded pressure marks
21:28:53 <Speuler> such as, rock one long one short spot
21:29:04 <Speuler> pawn one short spot
21:29:14 <gilbertdeb> KRISHNA: for starters you could try a really simple tic-tac-toe game.
21:29:19 <Speuler> bishop three small spots
21:29:21 <Speuler> and the like
21:29:36 <KRISHNA> i'm not writing a game engine
21:29:40 <Speuler> instead adc, thresholding could be enough
21:30:06 <gilbertdeb> I wish I had the dedication to improve my chess .
21:30:11 <gilbertdeb> I am still a novice :(
21:30:29 <KRISHNA> I'm quite good at it. 
21:30:39 * KRISHNA holds a FIDE rating of 2215 at present
21:30:57 <gilbertdeb> how did you get good at it?
21:31:00 <gilbertdeb> you play everyday?
21:31:06 <KRISHNA> something like that
21:31:10 <KRISHNA> good books.
21:31:18 <KRISHNA> my icc handle is ezlux
21:31:19 <gilbertdeb> those books are stuffily boring!
21:31:39 <KRISHNA> true
21:31:51 <gilbertdeb> you deserve your rating for going through those books.
21:32:06 <Speuler> but i'd think, capacitive or inductive detection would be easier
21:32:07 <KRISHNA> when you start playing tournament chess, you will need tham
21:32:12 <KRISHNA> s/tham/them
21:32:50 <KRISHNA> Speuler: noted. my electronics is close to 0 but I'll work on it.
21:33:47 <KRISHNA> Speuler: parallel or serial port ?
21:34:16 <Speuler> wouldn't really matter. serial i'd prefer
21:34:27 <gilbertdeb> why serial speuler?
21:34:54 <Speuler> less critical for signal bleeding through, less wires, longer cables possible
21:37:44 <Speuler> you'd multiplex data from fields anyway, so you may just multiplex them on one line, rather than on eight
21:45:18 <Speuler> or take a single input line
21:45:43 <Speuler> 256 bit is enough data to transmit the whole board
21:47:34 <Speuler> there are twelve different pieces (incl colours) = 4 bit, on 64 fields
21:48:14 <Speuler> each field is one out of 13 possibilities
21:52:16 * Speuler lights up a beedie
21:53:39 <KRISHNA> beedie ?
21:53:44 <KRISHNA> is that an english word ?
21:54:02 <Speuler> don't know how you call them in india. but they are from india
21:54:15 <KRISHNA> its called a beedie in India
21:54:19 <KRISHNA> quite famous in Kerala
21:54:31 <Speuler> smallish rose-petal sticks
21:54:36 <KRISHNA> exactly.
21:54:39 <KRISHNA> what brand ?
21:55:08 <Speuler> pink-violet conical paper thing around
21:55:29 <KRISHNA> yes.. whatz the name of the company ?
21:55:34 <KRISHNA> ur using 
21:55:34 <Speuler> yellow sticker
21:55:41 <KRISHNA> is that the name ?
21:56:19 <Speuler> *searching*
21:56:29 --- quit: gilbertdeb (""Monk has left the building"")
21:56:55 <Speuler> there's "pany" left on one edge
21:57:05 <KRISHNA> ok leave it.
21:57:09 <Speuler> might have been "company"
21:57:31 <KRISHNA> coming back to the demo board - will forth be good choice ?
21:58:12 <Speuler> if you would go to a BASIC channel, and ask the same, no doubt everyone would say "yes, of course" :)
21:58:43 <Speuler> you don't expect me to say "forth is useless for that app"
21:58:50 <Speuler> actually, it isn't
21:58:57 * KRISHNA chucks
21:59:25 <KRISHNA> so where would you use forth ?
21:59:33 <Speuler> for control apps, forth is actually quite good at
21:59:43 <KRISHNA> i mean, in the context of the demo board, where would you use forth ?
21:59:52 <KRISHNA> I want the S/W to run on linux
22:01:49 <Speuler> if you encode date from the board with a mc, forth would be good there. question is whether you want/can do without
22:02:30 <Speuler> depends on you sensor technology
22:02:52 <KRISHNA> mc ?
22:02:59 <Speuler> micro controller
22:03:14 <Speuler> the smallest ones are just too small to run forth
22:03:35 <Speuler> thinking of pic 15xx
22:03:42 * KRISHNA feels there is so much to learn ...
22:04:08 <Speuler> those are cheap
22:04:28 <Speuler> but probably best programmed in asm
22:05:35 <Speuler> in general, hardware control is one of the areas where forth excels
22:06:32 <KRISHNA> Speuler: thx for the useful info and happy puffing ... :)
22:07:08 <Speuler> if there's a microcontroller, small enough to barely run forth, there's probably no other (serious) lang which can run on it
22:07:34 <KRISHNA> ok. bye
22:07:40 <Speuler> ok. see you
22:07:41 <KRISHNA> c ya later.
22:07:43 --- quit: KRISHNA ("Client Exiting")
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.03.17