00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.03.16 00:53:02 --- join: Klaw (chuck@ip68-4-77-247.oc.oc.cox.net) joined #forth 01:37:09 --- join: serg (~serg@h138n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 01:38:04 hi 01:38:29 seeing how long my modem can last :) 01:38:43 :) 01:38:46 going for ar record 01:39:02 What, 2 inutes? 01:39:02 := 01:39:20 yeah, w/ mail in parallel, 65 k sucked 01:59:02 --- quit: serg ("Lost terminal") 03:54:29 --- join: Speuler (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4111.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 04:23:59 'morning 04:26:45 Hi Speuler 04:39:37 hey rob 05:29:32 --- nick: Speuler -> CaffeineJunkie 05:32:24 :) 05:47:47 --- join: murrr (ammu@baana-62-165-184-116.phnet.fi) joined #forth 05:48:01 --- nick: murrr -> mur 06:02:40 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ip-207-198-223-183.nyc.ny.fcc.net) joined #forth 06:02:46 hiya all 06:02:56 terve 06:03:00 why up this time? 06:03:48 oh i have question fo ryou 06:04:18 hiya mur...go ahead 06:04:52 is hand sign language iconographic like chinese or how much variations are there? are there inflecions? and how is owner ship declared in abstract cases (like names)? 06:04:56 cuz today's Sunday, and I decide I need to get over with a few computer stuff :) 06:07:25 hmm...each sign language has its own grammar, so I will answer only for ASL: some signs are indeed iconic, but there are many signs which are merely arbitrary...like the sign for "please" for example 06:08:04 hm 06:08:21 ASL doesnt have articles right? :) 06:08:31 (a, an ,the) 06:09:13 I would consider inflection to mean variation on the sign, and in ASL there are enormous variations...perhaps too enormous to even think about. A good example is the "move" sign...it can have thousands of possible variations 06:10:37 nope, ASL doesn't have articles....no use for it....the closest one I can think of would involve deictical "inflections" 06:10:58 * mur doesnt see usage for articles in spoken languges either :) 06:12:06 ownership.....I am not sure what is the problems with it regarding abstract nouns, like "love"... 06:13:24 hehe...I occasionally mess up the use of the articles in English, so, yeah, I personally don't see the need for the articles...but it is weird that if one doesn't use articles in English, it somehow comes out weaker or wrong 06:14:04 hmm probablu because the language have evolved to have articles 06:14:10 and people used to usethem and see 06:15:05 yeah...I think the a/an article originally came from the word "one"...makes sense 06:15:58 I also understand that Finnish is evolving to use "it" ("se") as a generic pronoun...right? 06:16:03 in nordic related languages (swedish, norwegian, dutch) a, an articles are the same word than one 06:16:20 mmhmm 06:16:20 in spoken language se is widely used 06:17:22 but some people use hän for humans 06:17:30 depends on the another person 06:19:58 hmm...interesting 06:20:48 i feel like hän woudl be used for those persons that are respected .. 06:21:01 someone might use hän for the loved one 06:21:23 but anyhow hän is not entirely disappeared from colloquial language 06:21:33 some dialects use that very well 06:21:36 something like the "familiar you" found in French and German? 06:23:27 hmm i dont know that 06:23:49 i guess most people dont use hän at all in colloquial langauges 06:24:04 and less educated the less probable to hear/see hän 06:24:17 this is just my prejudice, although :P 06:31:13 I see...thanks...by the way, do Finns palatize certain consonants, like the lj in "kyljen"? 06:31:36 palatise? 06:33:40 oh it was you 06:33:51 * mur was wondering about "transistor ":) 06:33:51 Russian has a lot of palatized consonants...basically, those consonants sound as if they got a y in it 06:34:00 liudennus 06:34:23 no 06:34:23 * TheBlueWizard is puzzled 06:34:33 liudennus is the word in finnish for palatise i think 06:34:44 palatizing 06:35:02 no finnish has geniune j and it is used there 06:35:02 ah...hmm...lemme grab the dictionary :) 06:35:13 j doenst altern, but is said there 06:35:43 "This is a message to get language stuff... Thanks. Bye" ? 06:36:39 rats...not listed in my dictionary...ok 06:36:58 I am not saying bye 06:37:11 i was wonderhting that message 06:37:25 what do you mean? :) 06:37:54 * TheBlueWizard is now confused 06:40:24 did you send me email? 06:40:38 or was it then someone else? 06:41:33 my only email address that I sent you is TheBlueWizard at pressroom.com....if it isn't that, you can ignore that one 06:42:33 hmm 06:42:34 From: "transistor" 06:42:42 is this someone else? 06:42:49 if it is what does he mean then.. 06:43:32 that email address isn't from me 06:43:46 hmm then i wonder the message 06:43:57 it coudl be traced back to years ago 06:44:03 but i dont remember any with such email. 06:44:21 hmm...well, I can't help you with that 06:45:20 i coudl send him email and ask :) 06:46:51 :) 06:47:34 TBW are you sure this is not your email? ;) 06:47:43 hmm 06:47:44 no wait 06:47:57 oh yes 06:47:59 * mur is silly 06:48:03 * mur goes to eat instead 06:48:10 hehe...ok 06:50:35 --- join: gilbertdeb (~gilbert@fl-nked-ubr2-c3a-29.dad.adelphia.net) joined #forth 06:50:44 ." hello " 06:52:02 ok 06:52:44 104 emit 105 emit 121 emity 97 emit 06:52:54 s/emity/emit/ 06:53:35 :) 06:53:36 :) 07:01:29 * mur returns 07:02:35 emity emity emity emit 07:02:45 lol 07:04:51 terve mur 07:05:15 terve taas, gilbertdeb 07:08:13 puho suomea TheBlueWizard? 07:10:33 puhutko, puhua = to talk, puhu! = talk! -ko is question suffix 07:10:43 laulat = you sing, laulatko? = do you sing? 07:12:05 are there finnish songs? 07:12:11 traditional? 07:12:23 thre are enourmous amount of finnish songs 07:12:50 what do they sound like? 07:12:59 all styles are available 07:12:59 :) 07:13:09 some songs make me sick and I cannot listen to them. 07:13:24 the vibrations in the song shake me improperly. 07:15:02 finnish music life is very rich 07:15:26 who is the most famous finnish musician? 07:15:31 apart from the composer. 07:16:09 blurrggh 07:16:12 en puhun...luen ja kirjoitan [a bit of] suomea :) 07:16:25 a bit of = vähän = a little 07:17:45 kiitos TheBlueWizard. 07:17:57 kittos, mur 07:18:12 mur how do you say 'english'? 07:18:50 language or country? 07:18:59 language 07:19:02 englanti = english language, england 07:19:06 let's see...luen ja kirjoitan vähän suomea...oikeako? 07:19:18 oikein. 07:19:26 :) 07:20:33 en puhun englanti, TheBlueWizard 07:20:51 * TheBlueWizard laughs 07:21:39 puhunpa englantin! :) 07:22:19 englantia :) 07:22:49 er....actually, read and write English....(though I can speak it, some don't understand me...*shrug*...so much for state-mandate speech classes) 07:24:16 why do'nt they understand you/ 07:24:16 ? 07:25:41 um...not sure...then again, that's typical situation for many deafs 07:27:33 they do not understand because they are not listening! 07:28:03 I conducted an experiment with a friend of mine in a pool, he would say some words in the water when we were both submerged and I would try to guess what it was. 07:28:08 have you met a deaf person in rl? 07:28:15 yes a few. 07:28:22 and on tv too :) 07:28:33 ok...tried to understand their speech? 07:28:39 I have. 07:28:43 ok 07:29:16 it takes a little more effort, but it is possible to understand. 07:29:47 anyway, what we concluded from the experiment was that it was easier to hear if we knew what words to listen for. 07:32:06 right...and there are a lot of info that cannot be deduced from watching the lips alone....simple example: pan ban....or more complicated one: "How to recognize speech?" versus "How to wreck a nice beach?" 07:32:32 hehehe. 07:32:51 ;) 07:33:05 there are many synonyms in english AND it is possible to make one's speech less ambigous. 07:33:56 perhaps too many synonyms. 07:33:57 * mur thinks he knows whom he'll give vote to in the national elections 07:35:27 to top it off, there are numerous dialects etc. that makes lipreading so hard. I remember counting my years when I can get out of the school system just to escape speech classes (it is so fscking boring!) 07:36:26 why didn't you just skip? 07:36:32 or was that illegal somehow? 07:36:38 the problem was in teaching 07:37:12 nah. English can be rather inconsistent due to the many influences on it. 07:38:05 * mur thinks finnish dialects will be even harder :) 07:38:18 how many dialects do you have running around? 07:38:35 i dont know 07:38:40 but the words vary 07:38:52 quite much. like minä can be mä, mää, mie 07:39:05 "state-mandated"...I found out while in high school that NY state has the law that requires all deafs to have speech class...from grade 1 thru 12...and that totally pissed me off....y'know, the laws passed by them old *hearing* farts 07:39:11 and minun can be mun, miun and so on 07:39:23 TheBlueWizard: change it if you can. 07:40:01 ha ha ha....deafs are a minority and the state congress don't give a squat to those very small minorities 07:40:26 * TheBlueWizard knows what is like to be in a small minority 07:40:52 sometimes it's just good to be in minority 07:40:59 * mur is often in minority, but likes that 07:41:37 how are you in minority mur? 07:41:42 your opinions differ? 07:41:59 there are numerous advantages, yes...but when it comes to politics, you can forget about that :-P 07:42:15 Minorities get more attention usually 07:42:35 it is cheaper to do things to large masses and quality is worser than if you are in small minority 07:43:06 small grousp are easier to control and gain confidence and that gives more freedom 07:43:08 mur not always true. 07:43:12 yes i know 07:43:20 minorities don't usually get attention 07:43:26 depends if you care everyone or not 07:43:27 sometimes minorities are really treated very nastily. 07:43:36 * mur talks about finland 07:43:51 mur: grammatical correction: "worser" --> worse 07:43:52 i know that these can be the and are often the opposite 07:44:00 tbw :) 07:44:03 mur: this country has a lot of minorities, but their position is not very enviable. 07:44:17 yes i know 07:44:32 europe is more state ran wellfare system 07:44:53 which gives more to those who dont have and less to those who have more.. ideologically 07:45:03 not always it works but that's the goal 07:45:23 um...as Far as I know, Finland has one significant minority: Swedes...I suppose there are more, or is my knowledge out of date? 07:46:40 6% 07:46:52 there is education in swedish in universities 07:47:00 one or two swedish universities 07:47:00 mmhmm 07:47:19 and other level swedish schols 07:48:18 if certain amount of population in the muncipal are some langauge the services must be offered in that language too 07:48:41 some muncipalities in lappland has all the official documents and information in 4 llanguages 07:48:54 ah, well finnish and 3 sami, 2 languages but 4 versions 07:50:05 3 sami? as in three different Sami languages? 07:50:55 * TheBlueWizard forgot all about Sami people (he knows Sami people don't like the term "Lapps") 07:53:10 TheBlueWizard: people talk a lot of rubbish imo. 07:53:19 sometimes it is an advantage not to hear them at all. 07:54:01 sami congress have given statement that the sami dialects are one langauge (even though they can not understand each others) 07:54:31 who are the samis? 07:55:12 hmm! Methink it is more a political tactic to increase the size of minority 07:55:24 --- quit: CaffeineJunkie (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:55:43 not that I know much about Sami situation 07:55:56 http://www.lysator.liu.se/nordic/scn/faq23.html 07:57:34 eeek! snow!! 07:57:56 i dont know if this is such good link at all 08:01:26 its good enough. 08:03:27 --- nick: mur -> mur|voting 08:03:40 voting for what? 08:04:23 as in 'why bother' 08:04:29 ? 08:05:58 national elections 08:06:14 for parliamenty 08:06:21 gon 08:06:23 e 08:06:43 mur is in Finland, which may have a different atmosphere (e.g. not so cynical like we Americans are...at least I am....) 08:07:19 even so, I still do vote 08:07:29 bah. 08:07:30 have to try, in spite of everything 08:07:51 I understand your cynicism. reason things tend to be the way they are is because there are career politicians. 08:08:03 cynically yours, 08:08:04 gilbert 08:08:06 :) 08:08:31 career politicians have but one goal: to make sure they don't lose their jobs. 08:08:45 the dynamics involved are completely different in that situation. 08:11:03 that may be so...but I think they are more interested in serving big interests over the commons, that's where my source of cynicism burst forth from 08:11:43 the source of their wanting to serve big interests is their desire to remain in power for as long as possible. 08:11:59 ... and to retire comfortably. 08:12:01 --- quit: gilbertdeb (""Monk has left the building"") 08:12:17 --- join: gilbertdeb (~gilbert@fl-nked-ubr2-c3a-29.dad.adelphia.net) joined #forth 08:12:20 now that was silly. 08:14:01 actually, many seem to not just retire, but join companies that they serve, as a way of payback (of course there is a law about not doing that right away after leaving political seat) 08:14:46 or go on book tour, like Clinton did, raking in millions (and paying off legal expenses in Cliunton's case) 08:15:39 heheh. now thats clever. 08:15:49 he made sure he did things people would want to read about! 08:16:11 ... and he had fun before ... he is having fun after. 08:16:34 hehe...yup! 08:39:50 --- join: CaffeineJunkie (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4111.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 08:44:03 hiya CaffeineJunkie 08:44:17 --- nick: CaffeineJunkie -> Speuler 08:44:38 hi TBW 08:44:53 how goes ? 08:45:41 hello 08:45:55 oh 08:46:04 forthfreak.net has been transferred 08:46:31 going fine....though I will soon have to get off the Net (need to shower, eat, read newspaper, do laundry, ...) 08:46:58 yep it seems to be working speuler. 08:47:47 mur|voting: Vote for a good party, if you can find any! :) 08:49:25 * TheBlueWizard wonders which party mur is voting for 08:50:02 Probably the Finnish Fascist Party. 08:50:38 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-QuebecCity-ppp81671.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 08:52:48 lol....nah 08:52:54 hiya wossname 08:53:01 merry chrustchove bluewiz 08:53:24 huh?! 08:54:38 er, hello :) 08:55:23 ok...much more sane this time :) 09:10:10 --- join: KRISHNA (KRISHNAKUM@61.1.220.174) joined #forth 09:10:18 welcome 09:10:24 hiya KRISHNA 09:10:33 hi i'm interested in learning FORTH 09:10:35 have you seen bashforth yet KRISHNA? 09:10:36 any pointers ? 09:10:45 KRISHNA: do you know bash? 09:10:54 yes 09:11:03 www.forfreak.net 09:11:12 click on the link for bashforth. 09:11:17 speuler wrote it. 09:11:30 i was astonished by the performance of FCP under bigforth 09:11:43 realll? 09:12:06 y 09:12:20 lets see the rooms topics have a bunch of links. 09:12:29 I don't know if they are complete though. 09:13:26 FCP under bigforth solved the test problems in much smaller time when compared to C version of TSCP 09:13:51 interesting. 09:13:56 what is fcp? 09:14:01 oops 09:14:09 FCP => Forth Chess Program 09:14:19 hehehe. url? 09:14:38 forgot . but google should help 09:14:59 TSCP => Tom Kerrigan's simple chess program 09:15:50 www.forfreak.net not working 09:16:28 forthfreak 09:16:31 sorry :) 09:17:31 nice to see so many forthers 09:17:52 is bashforth a real forth ? 09:18:01 yes. 09:18:28 what other impl. are worth looking at ? 09:18:43 I already have gforth, bigforth, pfe 09:19:16 isforth 09:19:26 free ? 09:19:33 its url is part of the topic. 09:19:58 isforth is Free (modifed GNU GLP'd) 09:20:30 so is bashforth 09:22:00 is bashforth under standard GNU GPL? 09:22:22 so how to learn forth quickly ? (for starters like me it defny looks like a write-only language) 09:22:32 ah okay. 09:22:48 oh have you taken a look at the gforth files? 09:23:03 there are a number of relatively clearly written examples of forth in there ... 09:23:12 also there are some urls... 09:23:35 seems like bottom-up approach is the proper way to wrtie forth code 09:23:58 s/wrtie/write 09:24:23 wade through this ... http://www.eforth.com.tw/academy/ 09:24:59 and this http://www.eforth.com.tw/academy/classroom.htm 09:25:20 ok... 09:25:30 TheBlueWizard, Robert The Green party 09:25:35 is it possible to interface with shared libs/dlls ? 09:26:06 i'll bet this weForth business can 09:26:21 --- nick: mur|voting -> mur 09:26:22 now, if i could read this .tw stuff 09:26:38 here too .http://www.geocities.com/matteo_vitturi/english/spectraforth.htm 09:26:45 krishna I am not so sure. 09:26:52 Its been eons since I run windows. 09:26:57 haha 09:27:04 vittu is a curse word in finnish 09:27:07 naugty one 09:27:08 :D 09:27:12 ;) 09:27:25 no what I meant was the C interface 09:27:32 if not then how to interface with the system ? 09:27:33 that might be through gforth. 09:27:43 also, the gforth tutorial is quite extensive. 09:28:22 ok. looks like pfe has full foreign interface including multithreading ... 09:29:10 i also found this : http://pfe.sourceforge.net/Forthprimer.pdf 09:30:10 anu of you using forth in real apps ? 09:30:18 s/anu/any 09:30:36 mur, hey. 09:30:52 mur: Did you vote on any Good party? :) 09:31:16 I think a number of people are secretly. 09:31:19 I am a hobbyist. 09:31:36 robert might be doing something secretly :D 09:31:39 right robert? 09:31:46 09:31:56 Er, sure. 09:32:37 in finland there is multiparty system, that meanst there are many parties (20 so in finland, 6 main parties) which each has ideology to follow, not intrest group. 09:32:49 bah too many parties. 09:32:51 we have 2 09:33:05 sometimes 3, but we always get rid of the third one when its time to do important things. 09:33:23 Hehe. 09:33:30 You're .us-ish? 09:33:35 miami 09:33:38 Awww. 09:33:42 hehehe 09:33:43 Evil and ++Evil. :) 09:33:51 vice city! 09:34:01 GTA wee 09:35:13 Robert yes 09:35:18 * TheBlueWizard can top Miami in terms of evilness 09:35:25 where do you live? 09:35:26 nyc? 09:35:43 gilbertdeb i woudlbnt call american groups parties relly 09:35:52 nope...I live not a mile away from Wash DC border! 09:36:00 oh. 09:36:01 they dont have ideological ... similarities 09:36:06 that might be a tad dangerous man. 09:36:09 your vote can go to any kind of person 09:36:12 mur: they are the same. 09:36:25 the electoral system presents us with 2 evils and we get to choose . 09:36:35 it really does'nt matter who is voted for at the top level. 09:36:52 but in finland 09:37:04 it is not the same with parties 09:37:04 Robert: so you agree that WashDC beats Miami in evilness? 09:37:20 TheBlueWizard: dc is just dangerous. 09:37:21 we do have actually still communist party.. or 2 actaully.. although, they haven't got to parliament for years 09:37:24 * TheBlueWizard isn't familiar with parliamentary system 09:37:34 gilbertdeb: heh 09:37:42 and thus they drop from party register and will be reregistered 09:37:54 and every year there are candidates but they never make through 09:38:13 TheBlueWizard: Evil and ++Evil refered to Dem. and Rep. :) 09:38:15 Anyway, brb 09:38:28 * TheBlueWizard understands that the Communist Party is a bit sensitive issue in Finland....correct him if he's wrong :) 09:38:35 nah 09:38:42 Robert: oh! hehe 09:38:49 why woudl it be 09:38:52 i think it is there more 09:39:06 to me it's okay what ever people vote 09:39:14 KRISHNA: one more for you. http://ficl.sourceforge.net/ficl.html 09:39:23 mur: nah? I read that Finns fought over this matter..."White Finns" vs. "Red Finns" 09:40:02 haha 09:40:11 it was about a 50 years ago 09:40:17 it doesnt bother anymore 09:40:27 there are left and right coalitions even here 09:40:29 hmm 09:40:48 so 09:40:51 guess the tone has mellowed out some then 09:41:14 anger is stupid to weight. it only has bad results 09:41:22 cooperation is much more fruitful 09:42:56 "anger is stupid to weight"? you mean to say "anger is way too stupid"? 09:43:06 uhm 09:43:09 no 09:43:21 it is stupid to stay angry for long? 09:43:25 or to consider? 09:43:26 i mean that it is stupid to weight anger. it just causes bad mind and such 09:43:28 i cant explain 09:43:31 :P 09:43:39 it poisons the mind you mean? 09:43:40 anger is hard burden to bear 09:43:44 kind of 09:43:55 it is stupid to stay angry consistently for long? 09:44:07 the word "weight" refers to the property of matter (generally) 09:44:45 and also to the importance of an issue. 09:46:27 hmm 09:46:33 perhaps if was finnish error in enlgish 09:46:36 weight is to bear 09:46:37 in finnish 09:46:39 i think 09:47:22 hmm...I think I know what you're trying to say 09:48:06 "it is stupid to keep being angry"...how's that? 09:48:30 keep on being angry is not worth it 09:48:46 or "being angry is such a stupid burden to have" 09:48:53 it eats other fruity ideas and cooperation and makes progressing harder 09:49:03 * TheBlueWizard nods 09:49:05 mur thats right. 09:49:18 it can be a poison or an impetus for action. 09:50:00 the original sentence "anger is stupid to weight" doesn't make English sense (especially that "to" expects a verb, not a noun) 09:50:54 "a grudge is a silly thing to bear for a long time". 09:52:26 well 09:52:29 what parties we have? 09:52:55 party name (ideology) -- comments 09:52:59 well, I must go...näkemiin [to all]! 09:53:10 moikka TheBlueWizard 09:53:17 näkemiin kaikki! 09:53:19 kaikille 09:53:27 bye mur 09:53:28 kaikki is colloquial, kaikille is literate 09:53:34 ah 09:53:49 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 09:54:15