00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.03.08
01:01:35 <Robert> Now he is.
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04:38:21 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
04:46:51 <Robert> Hi :)(
04:48:01 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Robert...what is that smiley?
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04:52:59 <Robert> TheBlueWizard: Typo 
04:55:41 <TheBlueWizard> ah...hehe...for a second I thought it might be a severe case of tics :)
04:57:21 <Robert> Haha, not really
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05:50:51 <gilbertdeb> .
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06:02:09 <gilbertdeb> .
06:03:00 <ramnull> What's up?
06:03:13 <gilbertdeb> your text now.
06:03:18 <gilbertdeb> nothing much else.
06:03:36 <ramnull> I outta make a Forth IRC client for all that.
06:03:44 <Speuler> 'morning
06:04:44 <gilbertdeb> ramnull: which new forths have you seen?
06:04:47 <gilbertdeb> lately that is.
06:05:24 <ramnull> Actually, I'm keeping it down to GForth, Bashforth, and IsForth.
06:05:29 * ramnull grins
06:05:33 <gilbertdeb> :D
06:06:04 <ramnull> It's a hell of a lotta fun playing with the compilers, even though I cant really do much yet.
06:06:59 <gilbertdeb> much by way of... ?
06:07:34 <ramnull> Text processing really. I can move numbers around easy enough though.
06:07:50 <gilbertdeb> text processing in forth?
06:08:00 <gilbertdeb> I think it is begging you to write a library for it .
06:08:14 <Speuler> ramnull: for gforth, text processing gets simple with  http://logilan.info/~l/stringstack.f
06:08:23 <ramnull> I think it is too.
06:08:27 <Speuler> or write your own :)
06:08:39 <Speuler> gilbertdeb: you were quicker
06:09:02 <gilbertdeb> heheh.
06:09:56 <gilbertdeb> I found a book at my local library yesterday called 'cellular automata machines' and it uses software called camforth
06:10:06 <gilbertdeb> has anyone heard of or seen this software?
06:10:06 <ramnull> I might do a little of both. I get the impression that Chuck Moore is descended from the Amish sometimes.
06:10:22 <gilbertdeb> ramnull: he is a born again turingite.
06:10:35 <gilbertdeb> some stuff doesn't seem too far from brainf*ck
06:10:46 <ramnull> Hmmmph, well then that might explain it.
06:11:25 <gilbertdeb> too much minimalism and you end up with a single instruction computer.
06:11:27 <ramnull> gilberdeb: If you want a hackers language, take a look at the language and database software over at www.kx.com
06:11:31 <gilbertdeb> with one instruction.
06:12:32 <gilbertdeb> Speuler: how did you manage the none 'cut' solution?
06:12:35 <gilbertdeb> did you use IFS?
06:13:25 <Speuler> gilbertdeb: like   a=abcde ; echo ${a:0:1}
06:13:56 <Speuler> take a look at unpack
06:13:57 <Speuler> that's what's called by accept
06:14:10 <Speuler> unpack splits a string into a char array
06:14:21 <gilbertdeb> accept is the forth listener right?
06:15:14 <Speuler> ( a n1 -- n2 )  gets n1 chars from std in, writes them to a, n2 is # of actually entered chars
06:15:25 <Speuler> same as the ANS accept
06:16:32 <ramnull> Alright, I'm a little fuzzy on allocating space without using cells. It's "create foo , , " for eight bytes right? on a 32 bit system.
06:16:44 <Speuler> 1 constant cell
06:17:01 <Speuler> 1 constant char
06:17:04 <Speuler> :)
06:17:24 <Speuler> ramnull: what forth are you talking about ?
06:17:49 <ramnull> Speuler: I'm dicking with IsForth again.
06:18:00 <Speuler> (you see, that's the problem when NOT using cells)
06:18:08 <Speuler> gets system specific
06:18:36 <ramnull> Yeah, I know. But I'm doing it as an educational excercise.
06:18:55 <Speuler> if you don't use cell, , commaes on basic word width
06:19:08 <Speuler> depending on your system
06:19:16 <ramnull> Gotcha.
06:19:24 <Speuler> in isforth, cell is 4. in bashforth, cell is 1
06:19:47 <Speuler> , allocate a cell
06:20:01 <Speuler> it may do   4 allot, or 2 allot, or 1 allot
06:20:06 <Speuler> sooner or later 8 allot
06:20:23 <ramnull> Same with "allocate"?
06:20:40 <Speuler> if your source says  "cell allot", you'r source is more portable
06:20:54 <Speuler> right
06:21:31 <ramnull> "Cell" is like a freaking C preprocessor directive.
06:21:50 <Speuler> cell means "the number of memory address increments required to create the room for one stack element"
06:22:01 <ramnull> Gotcha.
06:22:15 <ramnull> Cells are good.
06:22:32 <ramnull> I just wanna know how to do it by hand.
06:22:39 <TheBlueWizard> yup...though there are a few who hate the word "cell"
06:22:51 <Speuler> it does NOT necessarily mean "bytes per stack element"
06:23:13 <Speuler> TheBlueWizard: hi. 
06:23:22 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Speuler
06:23:28 <Speuler> TheBlueWizard: who failed to bring up any argument against it yet
06:23:30 <gilbertdeb> TheBlueWizard: you spoke AGAIN!
06:23:31 <gilbertdeb> :)
06:23:34 <Speuler> except emotional ones
06:23:54 <TheBlueWizard> gilbertdeb: "again"? what do you mean?
06:24:02 <Speuler> and "it is not difficult to rewrite a program# :)
06:24:19 <TheBlueWizard> I think I440r is one such guy who hate "cell"
06:24:37 <Speuler> that's why there's no cell in isforth
06:24:52 <ramnull> Aha, I got it.
06:24:57 <ramnull> I can go places with this.
06:25:00 <Speuler> but he looks to much "interpreter", not "program source"
06:25:18 <gilbertdeb> TheBlueWizard: nothing at all ...
06:25:29 <gilbertdeb> Its just I am too used to some lurkers never speaking :D
06:25:32 <ramnull> Your talking to an Ada junkie. I know all about program source.
06:25:38 <Speuler> goes like this "using isforth, you know that cell is 4. so why would you need a constant for it"
06:26:21 <Speuler> idea of compiling source in another forth is difficult to relay
06:26:44 <TheBlueWizard> gilbertdeb: ah...I normally talk here...but I was searching for some tools on the Net, and checking out emails, etc...hence my lurking mode ;)
06:26:54 <Speuler> but there's no problem.
06:26:54 * gilbertdeb nods.
06:27:05 <Speuler> 4 constant cell   : cells 2* 2* ;
06:27:07 <Speuler> problem solved
06:27:12 <Speuler> no argument needed
06:27:50 <Speuler> or   : cells 2* 2* ;   1 cells constant cell
06:29:10 <Speuler> or    here 0 , here - dup allot negate constant cell
06:33:20 <ramnull> Gotta go. Gotta work. bbl
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06:35:04 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye all!
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07:54:18 <gilbertdeb> http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/im/cam8/
07:54:29 <gilbertdeb> anyone know what they ^ are talking about?
08:06:56 <Speuler> most known example for cellular automata is probably conway's game of life
08:07:16 <Speuler> array of entities with simple rules, affected by surrounding
08:07:29 <Speuler> as a whole, complex behaviour emerges
08:11:59 <gilbertdeb> Speuler: they did the main thing in forth.
08:12:22 <gilbertdeb> or at least according to the book I have, they use forth to run the CAM machine.
08:12:36 <gilbertdeb> but I don't have a cam machine.
08:12:49 <gilbertdeb> I wonder if they have it in software or it can be found somewhere.
08:12:50 <Speuler> you got a forth machine :)
08:12:59 <gilbertdeb> indeed :D
08:13:07 <Speuler> that scalable, parallel thingie just adds speed
08:14:06 <gilbertdeb> but if  i tell my forth what their book says, it won't work.
08:14:10 <gilbertdeb> they do use forth for sure.
08:14:31 <Speuler> try game of life which is very difficult to implement
08:14:37 <Speuler> ahem
08:14:40 <Speuler> NOT very ...
08:14:42 <gilbertdeb> why is it difficult to implement?
08:14:56 <Speuler> *grin*
08:15:00 <gilbertdeb> : life center 0= if 8sum { 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0  0} else 
08:15:23 <gilbertdeb>  8sum { 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0  0} then >plno ;
08:15:40 <Speuler> rules are iirc  no splot, 2 neighbour  -> create splot
08:15:51 <gilbertdeb> : 8sum north south east west n.west n.east s.west s.east + + + + + + + ;
08:15:53 <Speuler> splot, 3 neighbous ,  keep splot
08:16:03 <Speuler> splot, >4 neighbours,  splot dies
08:16:24 <gilbertdeb> that is their camforth life
08:17:01 <Speuler> : north   me   0 -1 d+  c@  ;
08:17:24 <gilbertdeb> how do you know that?
08:17:34 <Speuler> : n.east   me 1 -1 d+  them c@  ;
08:17:39 <Speuler> : north   me   0 -1 d+  them c@  ;
08:17:57 <Speuler> but can be optimized a lot
08:18:57 <Speuler> first and last line, 1st and last columns are something to watch out.
08:19:16 <Speuler> easiest is probably, wrap around
08:20:06 <Speuler> used life as starter into oo programminh
08:20:06 <Speuler> ing
08:25:30 <gilbertdeb> do you think the cam8 machine is doable?
08:26:44 <gilbertdeb> it already exists in some capacity ...
08:26:54 <gilbertdeb> but as a purely software thingamabob?
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08:27:22 <Speuler> parallel computing and cellular automata fit well together
08:27:41 <Speuler> extreme case would be, one node per cell
08:27:47 <deluxe> bon jour.
08:27:54 <Speuler> grias di
08:27:59 <Speuler> :)
08:28:06 <deluxe> :-)
08:28:22 <gilbertdeb> >:-))
08:28:25 <Speuler> snak je ook plats ?
08:28:35 <gilbertdeb> that looks like dutch.
08:28:45 <Speuler> not quite
08:28:47 <Speuler> almost
08:28:56 <gilbertdeb> dutch is german with double a o and 'u' vowels :D
08:29:09 <gilbertdeb> sometimes 'e' as well.
08:29:10 <Speuler> dutch would be "praat" instead of "snak"
08:29:26 <gilbertdeb> so what did you write ? was that german?
08:29:32 <deluxe> plattdütsch
08:29:32 <Speuler> and "nederlands" instead of "plat"
08:30:23 <Speuler> but, if i talk to somebody from northern germany, say, hamburg, in dutch, he understand everything
08:30:30 <Speuler> and the other way around too
08:30:51 <gilbertdeb> ah .
08:30:54 <gilbertdeb> moin moin 
08:30:54 <Speuler> plat german and dutch are very similar
08:30:55 <gilbertdeb> ;)
08:31:27 <gilbertdeb> I know a few northern germans.
08:31:35 <gilbertdeb> lefke, tomke, bente
08:31:42 <gilbertdeb> all the men are called jan.
08:31:57 <gilbertdeb> i have to visit bente sometime.
08:48:30 <deluxe> Speuler: didn't have any time yet to look further on bashforth, but will... :-)
08:50:49 <Speuler> no problem. no obligation
08:51:14 <Speuler> deluxe: what version do you have ?
08:51:27 <deluxe> active Forth coders appreciated ;-)
08:52:26 <deluxe> few days ago dl'd them all
08:52:52 <Speuler> .36 is pure now. compiles considerably quicker from source too
08:53:07 <Speuler> "pure" = no external commands used anymore
08:53:36 <Speuler> used cut before, for input line processing
08:53:41 <Speuler> not anymore
08:54:32 <deluxe> have you once tried the assembler written in bash?
08:54:48 <Speuler> looked at it
08:54:50 <Speuler> not tried
08:54:58 <deluxe> same here
08:55:25 <Speuler> was considering adding code words, by assembling, and executing file
08:55:44 <Speuler> but parameter passing through stack wouldn't be efficient
08:56:02 <Speuler> nor would executing a file for a code word be
08:56:40 <deluxe> did you read moore's "interview" here on the #?
08:57:33 <Speuler> recent one ?
08:58:02 * deluxe knows about one only
08:58:24 <Speuler> cm was on this channel several times
08:58:25 <deluxe> when?
08:58:57 <Speuler> last time i remember was maybe half a year ago
08:59:18 <Speuler> wasn't always around
09:00:29 <Speuler> he was on euroforth too
09:00:41 <Speuler> bit more than a year ago
09:00:49 <Speuler> nearly went there for a presentation
09:01:00 <Speuler> last time is was there was '95
09:01:30 <Speuler> but was in the middle of a project.
09:01:37 <Speuler> rush one
09:01:52 <Speuler> difficult to drop out then
09:02:11 <Speuler> wasn't just the time for the conference. would have needed some preparation
09:02:39 <Speuler> the thing got presented anyway, but w/o me 
09:03:52 <Speuler> cm presented the x25 there
09:04:15 <deluxe> Internet Chat Room Log with Charles Moore
09:04:15 <deluxe>  05/04/2002
09:04:27 <deluxe> http://www.ultratechnology.com/chatlog.htm
09:04:39 <Speuler> april 2002 .. yes, think i was on the channel then
09:04:49 <Speuler> not sure though
09:05:04 <deluxe> was the first
09:05:19 <deluxe> another session after?
09:05:42 <Speuler> yep
09:05:49 <deluxe> oh
09:05:57 * deluxe curious
09:06:36 <deluxe> the session i mentioned is full of wisdom
09:06:58 <Speuler> i thin thin (then fuzzin) took the job of coordinating the question onto him
09:08:46 <Speuler> futhin
09:18:59 * Robert Was There (tm)
09:19:48 <deluxe> robert, you missed the point ;-)
09:19:59 <Robert> I never read what you said
09:20:01 <Robert> Except
09:20:04 <Robert> 18:04:13 < deluxe> Internet Chat Room Log with Charles Moore
09:20:15 <Robert> :)
09:20:50 <deluxe> tztztz.
09:25:33 <deluxe> out of that log i read a proposed straight path
09:26:08 <deluxe> it's a subjective impression only
09:26:24 <deluxe> ...
09:26:38 <Robert> ---
09:27:13 <deluxe> Robert: what?
09:27:50 <Robert> Oh, just wanted to continue on that three-eyed monster.
09:30:11 <deluxe> Speuler: "proposed straight path" was the thought relation to bashforth
09:30:28 <deluxe> Speuler: just an idea
09:30:34 <Speuler> ?
09:30:59 <Speuler> ah. low threshold forth
09:31:29 <deluxe> not only
09:32:53 <gilbertdeb> low threshhold?
09:32:57 <gilbertdeb> MIF?
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10:17:46 <Speuler> robert ?
10:18:07 <Robert> Yes, Speuler?
10:18:19 <Speuler> just listening to gwar: linux penguin attack :)
10:18:37 <Robert> Neat...
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10:18:45 <Speuler> got some heavy stuff.  like  "america must be destroyed"
10:19:07 <Robert> Heh.
10:19:12 <gilbertdeb> gwar?
10:21:37 <Speuler> gilbertdeb: kind'f noisy band
10:22:06 <Speuler> found the linux penguin attack title funny
10:22:27 <Speuler> fist band i know who has a song about linux
10:22:28 <Speuler> first
10:26:54 <deluxe> on the knoppix cd there's one too
10:27:37 <gilbertdeb> knoppix rules.
10:27:38 <Speuler> by whom ?
10:28:07 <gilbertdeb> it is a techno thing. not as pleasant to hear as bjork :D
10:28:51 <Speuler> ah. gwar is rock, quite heavy
10:28:57 <Speuler> most of them
10:29:14 * gilbertdeb is away: "off to find the meaning of 'brb'"
10:29:55 <Speuler> titles like "saddam a go go"
10:32:56 <deluxe> not sure if it really is a techno style song. i'll tell you by whom occasionally.
10:34:07 <deluxe> btw just in case, is the bashforth site uploadable?
10:34:27 <Speuler> "o canada" is not heavy at all
10:34:27 <Speuler> nope. need passwd to upload
10:34:57 <Speuler> soon, hopefully, forthfreaks will be on again
10:35:06 <Speuler> uploadable
10:35:40 <Speuler> for the moment, i need to put things on. you can mail them to me
10:36:06 <Speuler> what's there will go over to forthfreak.net when it's available again
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11:59:54 <Robert> Hey
12:05:47 <I440r> !!
12:05:51 <I440r> i changed for/nxt
12:06:14 <I440r> so that 10 for r@ . nxt shows 9 to zero instead of 10 to 1
12:06:31 <Robert> Good :)
12:06:43 <I440r> yea. i meant to do it ages ago but kept forgetting:P
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14:45:59 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
14:46:17 <gilbertdeb> hullo
14:47:48 <TheBlueWizard> hiya gilbertdeb (I'm "talking" lol :)
14:53:17 <Robert> Heh
14:53:26 <Robert> Hi gilbert, Mr Wizard..
14:53:56 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Robert
14:57:07 <XeF4> The: if I may know, wtf were you trying to ask in #debian-fi?
14:57:29 <gilbertdeb> fi?
14:57:47 <XeF4> finland
14:57:59 <gilbertdeb> ah.
14:58:02 <Robert> Hah.
14:58:17 <gilbertdeb> now I am confused.
14:58:25 <gilbertdeb> are XeF4 and TheBlueWizard finnish?
14:58:42 <Robert> No. :)
14:58:54 <XeF4> from the looks of his text,  TheBlueWizard isn't :)
14:59:05 <XeF4> and er, I'm not
14:59:58 <gilbertdeb> the finnish must be confused as well!
15:00:45 <TheBlueWizard> gilbertdeb: no, I am not a Finn...just learning a bit of Finnish :)
15:00:56 <gilbertdeb> oh.
15:01:55 <TheBlueWizard> XeF4: ah...I was asking whether it is for Debian candidates re /topic (a:a:nestysintoa)
15:02:25 <XeF4> ehdokas=candidate
15:03:16 <XeF4> ehdokkaat=candidates (or ehdokkaita in partitive)
15:03:18 <TheBlueWizard> yeah...but I need to make it a plural, and that stumped me LOL
15:03:23 <XeF4> not "ehdokahit"
15:03:26 <TheBlueWizard> ah!
15:03:35 <TheBlueWizard> I was wrong LOL
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15:04:42 <TheBlueWizard> so: Debianinehdokkaaixxxko? (where xxx represents "for")
15:04:52 <Robert> Argh.
15:04:56 <Robert> Finnish... :(
15:05:24 <XeF4> er , what is a debian candidate anyhow?
15:05:33 * XeF4 somehow doubts "ehdokas" is appropriate here
15:06:55 <TheBlueWizard> Robert: sorry!  but I find it interesting and challenging
15:07:19 <gilbertdeb> TheBlueWizard: I hear it is related to hungrarian.
15:07:21 <gilbertdeb> is that true?
15:07:29 <XeF4> "ehdokkaille" = "to the candidates" remember that a long vowel (aa) shortens with the plural -i-
15:08:35 <Robert> TheBlueWizard: It's OK, as long as I don't have to use it ;)
15:09:12 <TheBlueWizard> oh right re: shortening the vowels...I sometimes mix vowels up :)
15:09:43 <TheBlueWizard> Robert: no, you don't have to use it...but it is easy to learn how to say hi (hei, terve) :)
15:10:05 <TheBlueWizard> gilbertdeb: Finnishly is distantly related to Hungarian, yes
15:10:17 <Robert> I know... I'm a Swede you know, all swedes know "Yksi, kaksi, kolme... Terve..." :P
15:10:26 <Robert> Er.. know x3
15:10:38 <XeF4> or as the Danes put it "yksi kaksi kossu" 
15:11:07 <Robert> If that was a joke, I didn't get it. :)
15:12:14 <XeF4> kossu is Finnish booze
15:12:55 <TheBlueWizard> lol
15:13:47 <Robert> "Kossa", is what swedish babies call cows.
15:15:18 <TheBlueWizard> ah
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15:30:20 <Robert> HCN, welcome.
15:30:51 <TheBlueWizard> hiya tcn :)
15:31:41 <tcn> hey
16:04:29 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go....bye all!
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16:42:07 <Speuler> 'morning
16:42:14 <gilbertdeb> speuler someone I spoke to in the sml room said your bashforth was nuts!
16:42:21 <gilbertdeb> I think they finally understand :D
16:42:51 <Robert> Not smerdyakov, I hope. :P He's a true Forth hater.
16:42:59 <gilbertdeb> hahaha. no emu
16:43:09 <gilbertdeb> smerdyakov is an odd character.
16:43:25 <Speuler> gilbertdeb: oh sure. plenty of qualifications like insane, nuts, etc
16:43:32 <Speuler> that's good
16:43:55 <Speuler> better than people say that it is boring :)
16:44:13 <gilbertdeb> I think they are intrigued.
16:44:47 <Speuler> how come people in sml to know about it, anyway 
16:45:29 <gilbertdeb> <gilbertdeb> hahaha
16:45:29 <gilbertdeb> <gilbertdeb> is ml a small language the way forth is a small language?
16:45:29 <gilbertdeb> <emu> what way is that
16:45:29 <gilbertdeb> <emu> SML has a fairly sizeable standard basis library, which is nice
16:45:29 <gilbertdeb> <gilbertdeb> not the library ...
16:45:30 <gilbertdeb> <gilbertdeb> the core language itself pre-libraries.
16:45:32 <gilbertdeb> <gilbertdeb> eg you can write a whole forth kernel/interpreter in bash .
16:45:34 <gilbertdeb> <emu> you really can't separate that
16:45:36 <gilbertdeb> <emu> yes I've heard of the bash forth interpreter
16:45:38 <gilbertdeb> <emu> its nuts
16:45:40 <gilbertdeb> spam alert.
16:46:06 <gilbertdeb> anyway thats how come.
16:47:04 <gilbertdeb> oddly though, they couldn't properly explain why even though ML is taught mostly at top universities to top CS students who get top jobs, they have not influenced the industry at all.
16:47:46 <tcn> from what I've seen ML is too goddamn verbose
16:48:07 <gilbertdeb> haha. they said ml produced shorter code than c++/java
16:48:37 <Speuler> user satisfaction of ocaml users seems to be quite high
16:48:51 <Speuler> but i suppose so is java users'
16:49:18 <gilbertdeb> ocaml users seem to be very popular at icfp contests and no where else.
16:49:48 <gilbertdeb> if these languages are so superior, why isn't it proven with at least a webbrowser. java has a webbrowser!
16:50:02 <tcn> Java is crap too
16:50:19 <gilbertdeb> yeah but the designers don't deny it.
16:58:25 <ianni> *shrug*... i think java works well for serverside stuff
16:59:00 <ianni> its a nice clean oo abstraction of everything..
17:04:12 <gilbertdeb> java on linux SUCKS!
17:12:57 <Speuler> guess there's a difference betwen the java compiler and the java vm
17:13:14 <ianni> Speuler: there's a defeinite difference between the language and the platform.. yeah
17:13:48 <ianni> people can write java stuff in ada and c too, or anything else with a java compiler
17:14:00 <ianni> there's even a java assembler.. funny to think about 
17:14:03 <Speuler> when i was looking through a java vm, i was strangely reminded of forth
17:14:10 <ianni> hm
17:14:12 <ianni> how's that?
17:14:16 <Speuler> dup
17:14:17 <Speuler> drop
17:14:21 <Speuler> brach
17:14:23 <Speuler> branch
17:14:30 <Speuler> similar way to handle literals
17:14:32 <ianni> jvm instructions or somethin?
17:14:36 <Speuler> yep
17:14:38 <ianni> im not too familiar 
17:14:39 <ianni> ag
17:14:41 <ianni> itneresting
17:14:55 <gilbertdeb> Speuler: where did you see the vm ?
17:14:59 <Speuler> on the byte code level, there are similarities
17:15:04 <Speuler> i ported one
17:15:12 <gilbertdeb> from where to where?
17:15:16 <ianni> gilbertdeb the source and specs are all open..
17:15:18 <Speuler> from one cpu to another
17:15:44 <Speuler> well, to be concise, i helped porting one
17:17:08 <gilbertdeb> Speuler: what kinda interesting job is this you have?
17:19:39 <Speuler> consultant esoteric languages
17:19:44 <Speuler> such as forth
17:20:08 <ianni> did they want to do it in forth?
17:20:18 <Speuler> nope that was asm to asm
17:23:05 <Speuler> but i've been, for another project, working on forth oo, modelled after java
17:24:00 <ianni> ah
17:24:06 <Speuler> project leader was ex-java converted forth
17:24:07 <ianni> interesting
17:24:09 <ianni> wow
17:24:12 <ianni> i'd be interested in that
17:24:24 <ianni> jsut the langauge aspect of it right?
17:25:03 <Speuler> java structure, remodelled into forth
17:25:14 <Speuler> i.e. the java oo structure
17:25:23 <Speuler> not on the byte code level
17:26:10 <ianni> i see
17:26:35 <ianni> so abstract classes, classes and interfaces
17:26:58 <Speuler> then i was probably one of the few who had a good idea of how java was contructed but couldn't program in it :)
17:27:12 <Speuler> we were able to avoid interfaces
17:27:45 <Speuler> but, yes, classes, abstract classes, methods all java-styled
17:27:56 <ianni> yeah makes sense
17:28:01 <ianni> its just an abstract class with no implementations
17:28:10 <ianni> cool
17:28:16 --- part: tcn left #forth
17:28:23 <ianni> thats the best part of java lang - that and exceptions
17:28:51 <Speuler> reused forth throw for exceptions
17:28:56 <ianni> cool
17:28:59 <Speuler> and catch
17:29:17 <Speuler> was not the goal to model java as closely as possible
17:29:21 <ianni> forth ahs throw catch?
17:29:32 <Speuler> but to get oo onto forth, comparable to java
17:29:40 <Speuler> reason was, we needed to do something with it
17:29:50 <Speuler> the real part of the project :)
17:30:01 <ianni> ahah :)
17:30:08 <ianni> converting one of his applications? :)
17:30:10 <Speuler> java modelled because there was in-house knowledge
17:30:14 <Speuler> nope
17:30:38 <ianni> why did you want a java-oo style then particularly, if you dont mind me asking
17:30:40 <Speuler> written something new
17:31:00 <Speuler> i didn't want to. i didn't object. 
17:31:06 <ianni> i see
17:31:16 <Speuler> project leader knew java well
17:31:23 <ianni> got it
17:31:47 <Speuler> so rather than starting with something totally different, we chose something he felt at home with
17:32:18 <Speuler> was strongly influenced by him of course. he coded himself too
17:32:35 <ianni> and he pays the checks im sure :)
17:33:05 <ianni> i need to get more into forth
17:33:12 <Speuler> not that, but he'd hired me
17:33:27 <Speuler> were two coders on that project
17:33:34 <Speuler> him and me
17:33:45 <ianni> wonder what the best way to go about writing my own would be with no asm knowledge
17:33:54 <gilbertdeb> bashforth!
17:33:59 <ianni> hah yeah
17:34:00 <ianni> well
17:34:07 <ianni> maybe
17:34:08 <gilbertdeb> don't you bash?
17:34:12 <ianni> I was looking through the source
17:34:14 <gilbertdeb> there are a good number of c implementations.
17:34:17 <ianni> i use zsh yeah
17:34:21 <ianni> well
17:34:25 <gilbertdeb> ah you don't bash then.
17:34:26 <ianni> i'd like a plain english implementation :)
17:34:33 <gilbertdeb> ianni: wouldn't we all?
17:34:36 <ianni> haha
17:34:58 <gilbertdeb> prod Speuler into translating bashforth to english for you!
17:34:59 <ianni> i just got too far to go before i start implenting my own. and i figure i would understand language much better that way
17:35:52 <gilbertdeb> if it can be displayed on a flowchart, I can do it in forth as well.
17:36:32 <Speuler> ianni: wanna port bashforth to zsh ?
17:37:26 <ianni> Speuler: hrm
17:37:49 <Speuler> acutally, a string stack implementation would be easy to do in bashforth.
17:37:53 <ianni> i wonder if i am anywhere near up to that level
17:37:56 <Speuler> easier than in native code forths
17:38:09 <Speuler> much easier
17:38:18 <Speuler> reason:
17:38:26 <Speuler> a stack element can't just hold a number
17:38:30 <Speuler> it can hold a string too
17:38:46 <ianni> cause you can use bash stuff to get string length
17:38:47 <ianni> ?
17:38:52 <ianni> er
17:38:52 <Speuler> even if bashforth hardly makes use of that
17:38:55 <gilbertdeb> the way I see forth, it is the ultimate fundamental language.
17:38:59 <Speuler> to avoid confusion
17:39:00 <gilbertdeb> it is the language in which you write other languages.
17:39:18 <ianni> yes maybe bashforth is a god example to learn from actually
17:39:37 <gilbertdeb> ianni: I think #36 is the ultimate bashforth.
17:39:40 <ianni> s=()    ; s0=256 ; sp=$s0      # data stack
17:39:40 <ianni>  ?
17:39:46 <ianni> im reading 0.36
17:39:49 <ianni> what is $s0
17:39:56 <ianni> oh
17:39:57 <ianni> im blind
17:39:59 <gilbertdeb> s0 = 256
17:40:01 <ianni> hahah
17:40:12 <ianni> what is sp stand for ?
17:40:18 <gilbertdeb> stack pointer
17:40:18 <Speuler> stack pointer
17:40:22 <gilbertdeb> I've been reading :D
17:40:23 <Speuler> thanks gil
17:40:36 <gilbertdeb> yah my friends said 'wtf you are reading bash'?
17:40:41 <gilbertdeb> and I bowed my head.
17:41:12 <ianni> whats $*
17:41:21 <gilbertdeb> in bash it is the arguments
17:41:27 <gilbertdeb> all the arguments its just read.
17:41:40 <gilbertdeb> the individuals being $1...$9
17:41:42 <ianni> nteresting
17:41:44 <ianni> yeah got it
17:42:03 <ianni> what this then    compile "$*"
17:42:07 <Speuler> compile  gets the rest of the line with it
17:42:26 <ianni> looking at colon
17:42:40 <gilbertdeb> speuler what is the ultimate kernel of bashforth?
17:42:50 <ianni> it is niec to see this is terms i can understand easier than C or ASM
17:42:53 <gilbertdeb> where all the remaining forth words can be bootstrapped?
17:43:12 <Speuler> i'd go for .36
17:43:22 <Speuler> most bugs weeded out
17:43:35 <gilbertdeb> but it still has a lot of things which can be written in bashforth.
17:43:36 <Speuler> got include too
17:43:42 <ianni> so stack always starts at top
17:43:45 <gilbertdeb> I counted up to 20 words I think.
17:43:45 <ianni> and goes down towards 0
17:43:54 <ianni> from 256
17:43:55 <Speuler> indeed. wouldn't be necessary
17:44:02 <ianni> ?
17:44:19 <Speuler> starting at 0, push increments would possibly be better
17:44:33 <gilbertdeb> lemme see see if I still have my notes from the last time I read 'bash'.
17:44:40 <gilbertdeb> before  I got caught.
17:44:49 <Speuler> was too influenced by asm with that
17:44:50 <ianni> Speuler: is there any reason for using 256 as initial? because 0 is false or something?
17:45:00 <ianni> Speuler: is it because that is the way computer memory works?
17:45:09 <Speuler> push decrements stack pointer
17:45:19 <ianni> well yeah, im looking at dup
17:45:35 <Speuler> in asm, most often stack behaves that way
17:45:35 <ianni> and seeing it decrements stack pointer and puts somethign there
17:45:38 <ianni> ah ok
17:45:50 <Speuler> which would be unnecessary for bashforth
17:45:52 <ianni> is there any particular reason? 
17:46:03 <ianni> not familiar with hardware much
17:46:23 <Speuler> no, just because i always did stacks that way. thought about it too late
17:46:33 <ianni> ok
17:46:40 <ianni> fair enough
17:46:44 <ianni> just wanted to understand
17:47:05 <ianni> this is actually lots more sense-making than last i examined it :)
17:47:29 <Speuler> nest, next, unnest are important
17:47:59 <gilbertdeb> also header, compile, colon, code, semicolon, constant doconst I think.
17:48:14 <Speuler> those are just kind of macros 
17:48:24 <Speuler> no run-time code
17:48:43 <Speuler> helps me building primitives and colon words in bash
17:49:11 <ianni> yeah i think i frokked that from seeing code
17:49:13 <ianni> grokked
17:49:27 <gilbertdeb> if you were to have only those words necessary to bootstrap a forth from bash ...
17:49:32 <Speuler> implementations of nest, next, unnest are pretty conventional
17:49:36 <gilbertdeb> just nest, next, unnest will do?
17:49:42 <ianni> whats that bottom loop about?
17:49:47 <Speuler> you'll find the same construction in most forths
17:49:52 <ianni> why is there 12 copies ?
17:49:55 <ianni> or howerver many
17:50:01 <Speuler> speed
17:50:07 <Speuler> don't need to loop so often
17:50:11 <Speuler> loop is dead code
17:50:16 <ianni> i see
17:50:20 <Speuler> is sort of unrolled loop
17:50:22 <ianni> it's just like a unrolled loop
17:50:23 <ianni> yeah
17:50:28 <ianni> i see
17:50:50 <gilbertdeb> Speuler: what about ":"
17:50:59 <gilbertdeb> you surely need that to start putting things in the dictionary.
17:51:06 <Speuler> two commands on one line
17:51:14 <Speuler> that's same as next
17:51:26 <Speuler> but not calling next, for speed reason again
17:51:30 <Speuler> could be:
17:51:41 <Speuler> while :  ; do  next ; done
17:51:48 <Speuler> which would be slower
17:51:58 <Speuler> need to go through this loop with bash
17:52:05 <Speuler> not necessary with assembly
17:52:22 <Speuler> reason: if i go on calling next at end of function all the time,
17:52:33 <Speuler> bash's return stack would overflow
17:52:45 <Speuler> so i need to return from functions somewhere to
17:52:59 <Speuler> thus, i return to the loop calling next
17:53:11 <Speuler> instead of calling next at end of function
17:57:03 <Speuler> or putting code of next at end of function
18:01:36 <Speuler> ianni: the way does> has been implemented is not portable to native-code implementations
18:01:53 <Speuler> i took advantage of bash there
18:02:00 <Speuler> doesn't work in asm
18:02:36 <Speuler> so don't try to learn too much from this does> implementation
18:04:01 <gilbertdeb> speuler I would like to try a boostrapped version of bashforth. enough to let the beast live and then add the rest in forth.
18:04:03 <gilbertdeb> any pointers?
18:04:22 <Speuler> sure, just throw the overhead away
18:04:30 <gilbertdeb> :D
18:04:33 <Speuler> many primitives are not required
18:04:52 <gilbertdeb> what is required?
18:04:58 <Speuler> just written in bash because those are quicker than their high-level equivalents
18:05:07 <gilbertdeb> I have a looot of time to wait.
18:05:18 <Speuler> whereever there's a  colon xxxxx
18:05:26 <Speuler> it is followed by  $word $word
18:05:30 <Speuler> those are required
18:05:50 <Speuler> because the colon words, predefined in bash forth, use them
18:06:12 <Speuler> sometimes i call a primitive just by name from another primitive
18:06:18 <Speuler> those are required too
18:06:49 <Speuler> don't do that very often though
18:06:54 <Speuler> just looking for an example
18:08:08 <Speuler> in type i do that
18:08:15 <Speuler>    for (( i ; i ; i-- )) ; do
18:08:16 <Speuler>       count
18:08:16 <Speuler>       emit 
18:08:16 <Speuler>    done    
18:08:39 <Speuler> also in accept
18:08:49 <Speuler> code accept accept
18:08:49 <Speuler> function accept {
18:08:49 <Speuler>    read -ersn $tos tos
18:08:49 <Speuler>    swap
18:08:49 <Speuler>    unpack
18:09:58 <Speuler> in "dot" i call space that way
18:10:07 <Speuler> but echo -n " "   would do just fine
18:11:12 <Speuler> i'd proceed that way:
18:11:24 <Speuler> pick next primitive
18:11:24 <Speuler> search source
18:11:24 <Speuler> found not if
18:11:29 <Speuler>   primitive not necessary
18:11:30 <Speuler> then
18:12:15 <Speuler> decide whether primitive can be built as colon word from the remaining words
18:12:19 <Speuler> if
18:12:23 <Speuler>  comment out
18:12:25 <Speuler> then
18:12:42 <Speuler> test
18:13:12 <Speuler> "hash"  ( # )  uses:
18:13:18 <Speuler>    swap   
18:13:19 <Speuler>    oneplus
18:13:19 <Speuler>    r_from
18:13:19 <Speuler>    r_from
18:13:24 <Speuler>    slashmod
18:13:47 <Speuler> as example, those should do
18:13:54 <gilbertdeb> speuler? : fib
18:13:54 <gilbertdeb> word not found
18:13:57 <Speuler> colon words:
18:14:09 <Speuler> colon bracketquit                       \
18:14:10 <Speuler>    $init_stacks                         \
18:14:10 <Speuler>    $leftbracket                         \
18:14:10 <Speuler>    $query                               \
18:14:10 <Speuler>    $interpret                           \
18:14:10 <Speuler>    $prompt                              \
18:14:12 <gilbertdeb> is it all supposed to be in one line?
18:14:16 <Speuler>    $branch -4
18:14:18 <Speuler> all required
18:14:45 <Speuler> yes, because compile reads the whole line, and then adds semicolon
18:14:58 <Speuler> if you remove semicolon from compile,
18:15:01 <Speuler> you can do
18:15:06 <Speuler> compile word1
18:15:11 <Speuler> compile word2
18:15:14 <Speuler> compile word3
18:15:20 <Speuler> semicolon
18:15:38 <gilbertdeb> : square dup * ;
18:15:38 <gilbertdeb> word not found
18:15:38 <gilbertdeb>  ok
18:15:41 <Speuler> right now, semicolon is added automatically by compile
18:15:44 <gilbertdeb> does it automatically say that?
18:16:08 <Speuler> ?
18:16:15 <Speuler> got dup, got *
18:16:19 <gilbertdeb> : square dup * ;
18:16:22 <gilbertdeb> word not found
18:16:42 <Speuler> : square  dup * ;
18:16:42 <Speuler>  ok
18:16:55 <gilbertdeb> hmmm. whats wrong with mine?
18:17:01 <Speuler> what version ?
18:17:22 <gilbertdeb> .36
18:17:28 <Speuler> what version of bash ?
18:17:30 <gilbertdeb> GNU bash, version 2.05a.0(1)-release (i386-pc-linux-gnu)
18:17:31 <gilbertdeb> Copyright 2001 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
18:17:34 <Speuler> ah
18:17:36 <Speuler> use 2.05b
18:17:39 <gilbertdeb> oh.
18:17:45 <Speuler> there's a bug in let in 2.05a
18:18:29 <Speuler> read line 5 of bashforth source
18:18:35 <Speuler> # requires bash 2.05b or more recent
18:19:24 <Speuler> could trace the bug down to let
18:19:38 <Speuler> didn't modify bashforth to work around
18:21:16 <Speuler> GNU bash, version 2.05b.0(1)-release (i386-pc-linux-gnu)
18:21:16 <Speuler> Copyright (C) 2002 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
18:23:39 <gilbertdeb> hey the bash sources are in c
18:23:47 <gilbertdeb> why didn't just go ahead and add stack.h ?
18:24:14 <Speuler> apt-get install bash    ?
18:24:22 <Speuler> you're a debian man :)
18:24:36 <Speuler> woody ? sarge ? sid ?
18:24:38 <gilbertdeb> it says this bash is the latest.
18:24:39 <gilbertdeb> woody.
18:24:43 <Speuler> ah
18:24:59 <gilbertdeb> so far I have everything working perfectly: sound and movies.
18:26:25 <gilbertdeb> if I try to push it too hard, it will break!
18:26:49 <Speuler> consider:   put temporarily   sarge instead of woody or stable into  /etc/apt/sources.list   (the line of debian main), then apt-get update , apt-get install bash, then return to sources.list to woody or stable
18:27:13 <Speuler> i'm running sid here
18:27:22 <Speuler> sarge is between woody and sid
18:27:42 <Speuler> wouldn't recommend sid to you
18:27:51 <gilbertdeb> now you tell me!
18:27:52 <Speuler> but sarge is pretty reliable
18:27:58 <gilbertdeb> I already started making bash!
18:28:06 <gilbertdeb> okay lemme see.
18:28:32 <Speuler> run sid only if you know how to fix the system :)
18:28:48 <gilbertdeb> I don't 'C'
18:28:54 <gilbertdeb> I also don't gcc
18:28:59 <Speuler> me neither
18:29:11 <Speuler> "fix the system" does not mean "fix the sources"
18:29:25 <Speuler> fix an install script, for example
18:29:33 <Speuler> but, don't
18:29:49 <Speuler> i don't want to be responsable for your broken system :)
18:29:56 <Speuler> that's sid
18:29:59 <Speuler> not sarge
18:30:02 <gilbertdeb> ah yes. broken systems...
18:30:28 <Speuler> consider too:
18:30:30 <gilbertdeb> I miss solaris already.
18:30:35 <Speuler> leave all on sarge,
18:30:42 <Speuler> put all on hold
18:30:58 <Speuler> pick only those packages you'd like to be updated
18:31:04 <Speuler> result:
18:31:16 <Speuler> basically woody, with some sarge updates
18:32:00 <Speuler> woody = server stuff :)
18:32:45 <Speuler> frozen for half a year before woody was declared "stable"
18:33:34 <Speuler> but a few bugs still slipped
18:33:48 <gilbertdeb> GNU bash, version 2.05b.0(1)-release (i686-pc-linux-gnu)
18:33:49 <gilbertdeb> Copyright (C) 2002 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
18:33:49 <Speuler> such as a "let" bug in bash
18:33:54 <Speuler> good
18:34:54 <Speuler> if thers's still 2.05a in woody, i have to consider a work around
18:44:44 <gilbertdeb> I did apt-get upgrade.
18:44:47 <gilbertdeb> is that a good idea?
18:44:53 <gilbertdeb> I haven't it 'y' yet.
18:45:53 <Speuler> no
18:46:02 <Speuler> update
18:51:37 <gilbertdeb> to what end?
18:51:43 <gilbertdeb> I already compiled it :)
18:51:47 <Speuler> reading packages lists
18:51:52 <Speuler> ok.
18:51:58 <Speuler> no need to do that anymore
18:52:20 <Speuler> change back to woody/stable
18:54:26 <gilbertdeb> but but, I like woody :D
18:54:39 <gilbertdeb> would it breakt it badly if I went ahead and upgraded?
18:55:18 <Speuler> no. wouldn't expect. but, i avoid upgrade. instead, i update, then put on hold, and pick just what i really want to upgrade
18:55:54 <Speuler> to upgrade, i'd pick more and more packages, install them iteratively
18:56:11 <Speuler> don't feel comfortable with upgrading all at once
18:56:26 <gilbertdeb> heh, what are you? AFRAID?
18:56:27 <gilbertdeb> heheheh
18:56:30 <gilbertdeb> j/k
18:56:33 <Speuler> careful
18:56:39 <gilbertdeb> cautious.
18:56:49 <Speuler> but, i may be influenced by sid :)
18:56:54 <gilbertdeb> why?
18:57:00 <gilbertdeb> whats so special about sid?
18:57:11 <Speuler> sid may break your system
18:57:45 <Speuler> incoming -> sid -> sarge
18:58:01 <Speuler> sid = maintainer upload
18:58:27 <Speuler> everyone makes mistakes
18:58:39 <gilbertdeb> like who?
18:58:43 <gilbertdeb> the debianites?
18:58:44 <Speuler> maintainers
18:59:12 <Speuler> if it breaks, i want to know what caused it
18:59:39 <Speuler> installing a whole bunch of new things makes that more difficult
18:59:51 <Speuler> but sarge is not sid
19:00:25 <Speuler> sid = character from movie toytown. the guy who breaks the toys
19:00:35 <gilbertdeb> hahaha
19:01:18 <Speuler> i'm running sid on the machine i work on myself. can control it there
19:01:41 <Speuler> on server, i tend to use woody, sometimes sarge, or parts of sarge
19:01:59 <Speuler> on other peoples' workstation, there's most often sarge
19:02:29 <Speuler> difference to woody is that often new versions or new programs become available
19:02:45 <Speuler> it's on you to decide what new stuff you want to install
19:02:55 <Speuler> that's why i find woody boring
19:03:03 <Speuler> doesn't happen much
19:03:10 <Speuler> i like to have a look what's new
19:03:26 <gilbertdeb> too many immature programs I say.
19:03:32 <Speuler> that's even more the case with sid
19:03:34 <Speuler> nope
19:03:56 <Speuler> sarge is, if it wouldn't be per definition not stable, pretty stable
19:04:10 <Speuler> but, only woody is declared stable
19:04:30 <Speuler> stable doesn't just mean "does not crash machine", but "doesn't change a lot"
19:04:47 <Speuler> sarge also doesn't crash your machine
19:04:52 <Speuler> sid may
19:04:59 <Speuler> but is unlikely
19:05:05 <Speuler> programs may crash
19:05:15 <Speuler> those won't make it into sarge
19:05:40 <Speuler> sarge is becoming the next stable release
19:05:50 <Speuler> sid will remain sid
19:06:03 <Speuler> always unstable
19:06:20 <Speuler> without crashing the machine
19:06:26 <Speuler> but no guarantee
19:06:49 <Speuler> otoh, even woody is not guaranteed to not crash your machine
19:06:55 <Speuler> it is just even less likely
19:07:59 <Speuler> at one point, sarge will be declared frozen
19:08:10 <Speuler> that is, only buf fixes go in
19:08:12 <Speuler> no new programs
19:08:27 <Speuler> no new versions which do not fix release-critical bugs
19:08:49 <gilbertdeb> what are they evolving the versions towards?
19:08:53 <Speuler> after a while of being frozen, and release-critical bugs weeded out, sarge becomes stable
19:08:59 <Speuler> the next debian release
19:09:17 <Speuler> so sarge is future stable in process of being built
19:10:05 <Speuler> when woody was frozen, sarge and woody were identical
19:10:13 <Speuler> a year ago, or so
19:10:48 <Speuler> 3. i dont't know. maybe 4.0
19:10:59 <Speuler> i guess, 3.2
19:11:12 <Speuler> t'is just "sarge"
19:11:16 <Speuler> no version number
19:11:34 <Speuler> woody became only then 3.0 when it was ready for release
19:11:49 <Speuler> and before it was just woody
19:12:12 <Speuler> hmm, no
19:12:19 <gilbertdeb> potato?
19:12:20 <Speuler> 3.0 was projected at freeze-time
19:12:25 <Speuler> 2.2
19:12:40 <Speuler> slink before
19:12:53 <Speuler> first debian here was 1.1
19:13:04 <Speuler> skipped 1.2
19:13:17 <Speuler> made it 1.3
19:13:37 <Speuler> explored other distributions
19:13:55 <Speuler> made it back to debian when potato was stable
19:13:59 <Speuler> using woody
19:14:47 <Speuler> used SLS, then slackware, before debian
19:15:19 <Speuler> : square dup * ;    ?
19:19:10 <gilbertdeb> : square dup * . ;
19:19:10 <gilbertdeb> word not found
19:19:10 <gilbertdeb>  ok
19:19:27 <Speuler> still running old bash
19:19:37 <gilbertdeb> nope.
19:19:44 <gilbertdeb> GNU bash, version 2.05b.0(1)-release (i686-pc-linux-gnu)
19:19:44 <gilbertdeb> Copyright (C) 2002 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
19:20:22 <Speuler> do:
19:20:31 <Speuler> : square   <enter>
19:20:46 <Speuler> dup  <enter>
19:20:54 <Speuler> *  <enter>
19:21:02 <Speuler> ; <enter>
19:21:13 <Speuler> wherew does it complain ?
19:21:52 <gilbertdeb> it stopped
19:21:53 <gilbertdeb> I run bash
19:21:59 <gilbertdeb> then I did . bashforth36
19:24:33 <Speuler> better chmod +x bashforth_v0.36
19:24:43 <Speuler> ./bashforth_v0.36
19:24:49 <Speuler> or bye will close the shell
19:25:04 <Speuler> but is not related to error
20:58:04 --- quit: gilbertdeb (""Monk has left the building"")
21:42:58 --- join: TreyB (~trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth
22:02:38 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
22:03:42 <fridge> I don't think there is a better langugage than forth for learning the skill of factoring
22:12:31 --- join: Speuler (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba499f.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth
22:16:29 <ianni> true enough
22:24:52 --- join: semtex (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba499f.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth
23:08:33 <Speuler> 'night
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.03.08