00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.03.03 00:05:24 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 00:38:09 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 00:38:26 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Client Quit) 01:05:46 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 01:47:27 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:48:33 --- join: Speuler (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4b90.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 02:00:54 --- quit: Speuler ("Client Exiting") 02:02:10 --- join: Speuler (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4b90.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 02:06:42 --- quit: Klaw (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 02:51:47 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 03:03:38 --- join: serg (~serg@h138n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 03:03:57 --- nick: serg -> serg_log 03:04:19 z 03:04:38 hi 03:05:11 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 03:08:04 am i logged ? 03:08:59 good, log is really on, i see ! 03:42:32 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 04:10:10 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 04:55:39 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 04:56:03 hi 05:12:36 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 05:34:29 --- join: skylan_ (sjh@207.164.213.40) joined #forth 05:45:48 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:04:28 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 06:16:55 --- nick: skylan_ -> skylan 06:37:32 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 06:52:50 * Kitanin pokes his connection to make sure it's up. 06:53:03 * Robert pokes Kitanin. 06:55:00 EEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! BAD TOUCH! BAD TOUCH! 06:55:36 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:59:03 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 07:05:57 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:06:47 --- join: Speuler (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4b90.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 07:09:58 --- quit: Speuler (Client Quit) 07:19:02 --- join: tathi (~josh@ip68-9-58-105.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 07:19:22 Hi tathi 07:20:01 --- join: Speuler (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4b90.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 07:21:22 beg you a decent day 07:21:38 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 09:08:30 --- join: gilbertdeb (~gilbert@fl-nked-ubr2-c3a-29.dad.adelphia.net) joined #forth 09:08:34 hello 09:08:48 hi gilb 09:08:57 Speuler: you're running debian right? 09:09:03 right 09:09:11 2.2.20-idepci 09:09:16 I need to upgrade that. 09:09:20 but I don't see the docs 09:10:05 what kernel do you have? 09:10:15 2.4.19 09:10:26 I need to get one of those . 09:10:42 I really like apt-get . 09:10:51 just grepped through docs for idepci 09:10:51 it reminds me of all that was good about freebsd :D 09:10:58 nothing found 09:11:16 there was a command for upgrading using apt-get 09:11:33 someting like apt-get instal kernel-image-2.4.18something 09:11:35 just 4 files referring to idepci 09:11:58 have you compiled a kernel before ? 09:12:13 for freebsd 09:12:16 and long ago for suse 09:13:04 consider getting kernel-source 09:13:08 build your own kernel 10:02:23 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 10:02:31 --- join: tathi (~josh@ip68-9-58-105.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 10:05:29 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:07:14 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 10:32:01 --- join: I440r (~mark4@ip209-183-83-88.ts.indy.net) joined #forth 10:50:40 --- quit: gilbertdeb ("Client Exiting") 11:38:35 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again") 12:50:30 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 13:00:16 --- join: Speuler (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4ab6.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 13:05:41 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:07:06 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 13:25:40 --- join: ramnull (~nicad@12-241-145-39.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 13:49:51 Anyone here using IsForth? 13:56:29 Yes. 13:56:40 I440r just left a few hour ago, though. 13:56:48 * ramnull nods 13:57:14 I'm a little fuzzy on how IsForth does it's file IO. 13:57:58 What, do I do something like "foo.txt fopen"? 13:58:55 Not really... 13:59:30 I did a little bit of file I/O recently, but I don't remember. Check the sources :) 13:59:46 Hmm... I guess you should use the syscalls, though. 13:59:54 Looking over the /src/ext sources right now. 14:01:05 But I wondering, for the address in the syscall, does it need an inode number or something else. 14:01:31 Heh. 14:01:45 The address? You mean to the ASCIIZ string? 14:02:39 Yeah. 14:06:10 Of course not. 14:06:22 Just do like you'd do it with C or whatever... 14:06:39 But remember to use an asciiz string, not a counted one. 14:06:53 Gotcha. 14:08:35 The thing keeps segfaulting. I'll get it yet. 14:09:37 Hmm. 14:09:47 You should check out the code for "fsave". 14:09:52 It'll help you out. 14:12:13 * ramnull nods 14:15:22 Think I got it. Be right back. 14:15:24 --- part: ramnull left #forth 14:53:09 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:27:09 --- quit: Kitanin ("Client killed by developer sick of answering stupid questions.") 15:36:17 --- join: Speuler (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4ab6.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 15:56:17 'morning 17:03:50 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 17:59:36 --- quit: Fractal (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:33:58 --- join: I440r (~mark4@ip209-183-83-27.ts.indy.net) joined #forth 18:36:30 hoi 18:36:37 hi 18:45:01 'morning 18:49:02 * I440r is getting depressed again, every fucking embedded job applications has "oop" in its description 18:49:10 fucking morons :( 18:51:33 did you tell them that ? :) 18:51:34 maybe 18:52:17 but a *tight* oop system would at least stave off their demise if it wouldn't save them entirely 18:52:30 (hinthint) 18:52:43 brb, reboot 18:53:45 oop has no place what so ever in an embedded application 18:53:48 PREIOD 18:54:11 i may object 18:54:25 user-programmable embedded devices ... 18:54:49 or, client programmable once, to be more concise 18:54:53 ones 18:56:05 designs to allow no-brainers to be uploaded by the client, before further distribution 18:56:51 * Speuler thinks about electronic banking cards 18:57:12 and health insurance cards 18:58:17 final customization is done by programmers who know a bit of java 18:59:50 exclamation mark 18:59:58 java vm on a bank card? 19:00:02 yep 19:00:31 ahm.. 19:01:04 * Speuler worked on porting one 19:03:59 a regular smartcard? 19:05:01 and in the card itself? 19:06:15 regular smartcard. "card itself" ? 19:06:29 java vm standalone. asm 19:07:05 I mean was the vm in the card or in the card reader/writer 19:07:12 in the card 19:07:44 appalling 19:07:46 there's a whole computer in there 19:07:55 I know 19:08:09 transition from 16 to 32 bit is more or less completed ... 19:08:26 it's just that something the size of a java VM is tricky to get 100% bug-free 19:08:36 which a smartcard imho has to be 19:10:08 you won't get all errors out i suppose. suffice to day that rigorous testing is done to them. 19:10:27 there's more about the code too, but sorry no details there 19:10:53 they might sue my ass off :) 19:12:09 "if you think a jvm in a bank card is appalling you should see what went into the missile controller"? 19:12:56 i was on the contract without being a java specialist. 19:14:42 that doen't mean it's low-qual of course. but i had to learn while doing. 19:15:09 supposedly i'm not the only one 19:15:39 this is ridiculous 19:15:43 er, nm 19:15:47 thinking out loud 19:16:17 (sitting at a win98 box) 19:16:29 basically, i got the project because i new about virtual machines :) 19:16:40 *nod*, the bytecode itself doesn't look like it would need a java specialist to implement 19:16:46 and asm, specifically the targetted cpu 19:17:06 s/new/knew/ 19:17:18 which cpu if I may know? 19:17:25 sorry 19:17:37 Speuler - thats crazy.. 19:17:56 not totally unrelated to 68k 19:18:04 java vm on a bank card 19:18:05 coldfire? 19:18:09 nope 19:22:33 ianni: popular demand 19:22:41 what in the.. 19:22:55 so the java vm runs on a microcode vm for the cisc instruction set 19:23:25 68000 related, bit riscy 19:23:27 but 19:24:06 not motorola 19:25:27 not even u.s. 19:25:57 u.s.? 19:26:21 usa 19:31:09 Japan? surely it was designed in some country where the designers can't think straight because of the heat 19:31:33 was actually working with japanese there 19:31:58 that's where my few words of japanese vocab came from 19:33:04 ohaiogosaimas 19:33:40 was that good day or good morning, I can't remember 19:33:46 good morning 19:35:03 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@pca8dn1d.ppp.fcc.net) joined #forth 19:35:12 woosh 19:35:20 hiya all...will be brief 19:35:26 shoot 19:35:58 'll call you rincewind 19:36:34 "wizzard" 19:37:17 * Speuler likes pratchett's books a lot 19:37:57 hmm? 19:38:07 * TheBlueWizard quietly pokes I440r 19:38:25 discworld 19:39:30 i've been declared "artist" 19:39:43 huh? 19:39:53 for an event 19:40:17 i'm probably the only "artist" who's not going to use a computer :) 19:40:42 at least, not a conventional one 19:41:09 i'll be using a downscaled biologic computer 19:41:18 *grin* 19:41:28 --- join: Fractal (tsxqhkl@my.behaviour.is.due.to.many.doses.of.stronglsd.com) joined #forth 19:41:54 downscaled because i won't get the 15000-20000 people together for the full design 19:42:09 are you trying to build something? 19:42:44 sort'f ... after i was declared artist, i needed a project for that event 19:42:53 so i thought about: 19:43:35 Speuler - that sounds like fun work 19:43:37 teach people to remove their hand from an assigned shoulder when they got two hands on their shoulders 19:43:57 hiya Fractal 19:44:13 that is, human NAND gates 19:44:49 with 15000-20000 gates, i could try to implement an error tolerant cpu 19:45:01 error tolerant for the pee breaks 19:45:10 lol 19:45:14 and then port forth to it 19:45:28 if you teach people to pee in their trousers you could get by with a thousand or so 19:45:54 at an estimated 5 billionth of the speed of a real cpu 19:46:12 or teach them to pass the pail around... :) 19:46:19 lol 19:46:26 well, gotta go...bye all! 19:46:28 TheBlueWizard : Hey man. Sup? 19:46:32 Er, heh. Bye 19:47:01 heh...bye Fractal 19:47:06 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 19:48:24 so i'm going to use a few simple designs 19:48:47 a logic tester for new gates (5 people) 19:49:03 a human traffic light (about 12 or 13) 19:49:28 a oscillator to drive the traffic light (3 gates) 19:49:38 and some more simple stuff 19:49:38 alol 19:49:49 brilliant 19:50:09 the "real" artist seem to like the idea 19:50:29 im sure they do - that's a very powerful art! 19:50:43 i mean, even a fake, has got to see something interesting in that 19:50:44 my tools will be: some concrete, and a piece of chalk 19:51:09 i'll draw feet on the ground 19:51:22 and lines, to indicate the assciated shoulder 19:51:36 needs careful routing 19:51:49 because arms have only limited length 19:52:43 they wanted some stupid computer animation, or something alike first 19:52:51 *shudder* 19:53:23 i thought, as the only real computer freak, it would just fit to NOT use a computer 19:53:53 especially as most of the other designs will employ computers 19:54:42 visualizing the function of electronics sounded nice. 19:54:43 1.11b released 19:55:00 just adds my memory manager realy 19:55:13 so i recycled the valve computer concept 19:55:16 i440r: docs coming ever? 19:55:41 I440r: cool 19:56:07 I440r: i'll be soon able to host on forthfreaks.net again 19:56:53 expected kk to be completed today 19:56:56 i hope so, ill see what i can do 19:57:01 but dont hold your breath 19:57:02 but not the case 19:57:13 sma pulled out of doing that :/ 19:57:25 sma ? 19:57:35 stephen ma 19:57:37 he is in here now :P 19:57:39 but idle 19:57:44 ah 19:57:46 futhin? 19:57:48 * Speuler blind 19:58:04 ah sma 19:58:06 * XeF4 blind 20:02:59 Morning, people. 20:04:24 hi robert. you can download 1.11b now - i figure the memory manager is about as debugged as i can get it for now :) 20:04:32 Cool. 20:04:56 It's 5 am, I only managed to sleep 2 hours tonight ;/ Don't know why I'm this messed up... 20:05:19 morning rob 20:05:41 Hi Speuler 20:06:20 feeding your ice bear ? 20:06:30 It's asleep. 20:07:40 robert@argon:~/software/isforth$ make linux 20:07:40 make[1]: Entering directory `/home/robert/software/isforth/src/kernel' 20:07:40 memory.1:568: error: symbol `scanz' redefined 20:07:40 make[1]: *** [kernel.o] Error 1 20:08:00 Any idea why NASM would do that? 20:08:08 robert@argon:~/software/isforth$ nasm -v 20:08:08 NASM version 0.98.35 compiled on Dec 24 2002 20:08:33 Maybe Santa brought me a broken version of NASM? :) 20:09:31 erm 20:09:39 scanz is one of the words that was changed 20:09:45 bug fixed actually 20:09:53 oopts 20:09:58 im getting that too now 20:10:01 let me fix it 20:10:04 shoot 20:10:18 :) 20:10:24 Tell me when the new version's up. 20:11:09 go to memory.f 20:11:13 search for scanz 20:11:16 you will find 20:11:20 code 'scanz'.... 20:11:24 followed by the same line 20:11:29 delete the second instance of that line 20:11:52 OK :) 20:12:31 Wee... 20:13:06 : I440r ." The bug man!" cr ; ok 20:13:06 I440r The bug man! 20:13:06 ok 20:13:10 Works fine. 20:16:18 yup :/ 20:16:20 anyway, i gtg now 20:16:20 robert 20:16:20 do 20:16:23 fload help/mmtest.f 20:16:26 burn 20:16:29 watch it allocate and free up 20 thousand buffers 20:16:43 assuming you have enough memory :) 20:17:08 l8er 20:17:11 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again") 21:34:38 hi, anybody still awake? 21:35:54 sort'f 21:36:17 Speuler: looking back at previous conversation.... 21:36:30 Speuler: as i440r said, 21:37:08 Speuler: i've pulled out of IsForth -- latest victim of i440r's flamethrower 21:37:23 * Speuler sympathizes 21:37:39 * sma says thanks 21:37:51 could not justify investing 21:37:55 no need to justify 21:38:10 large effort if i440r was going to be obstructing anyway 21:38:41 hope you still enjoy forth 21:39:09 a bit burned out tho :) 21:39:39 you get over it. we're kind of used to i440r 21:40:04 i should have listened to you guys before starting 21:40:37 yes, i hope i'll get over it 21:40:43 i don't remember having said anything to you related to your beginning project 21:41:05 not you, but others here 21:41:16 (onetom, i think, and x-something) 21:41:18 ah :) 21:42:26 :) anyway, what forth should i help out with now, in your opinion? 21:42:51 what's your interest ? 21:43:59 just play, mostly. on Linux. no real time, no multithreading, just straight fun applications. 21:45:15 how do you want to put forth/linux to use ? 21:45:55 well, at one time i was considering doing my compiler project in forth, 21:46:14 that's always a supportable effort 21:46:22 but i know better now. i'm still interested in forth for playing and for esthetic reasons. 21:47:20 what do you mean by supportable effort? 21:47:22 considered using forth for generating html ? 21:48:00 no, i was hoping to use forth's assembler to build a native-code compiler for a new language. 21:48:35 but nothing available on Linux seems to have the right infrastructure: 21:48:41 IsForth - no assembler 21:49:08 i mean: it is a good plan to write ones own compiler. the learning benefit is high. and it is quite satisfying. that's when in thought you mean forth compiler" 21:49:24 ah. 21:49:40 : nop $90 c, ; 21:49:46 gforth - slow, and register assignments change with each version 21:50:21 ok 21:50:28 assembling by hand was what i did with isforth, but that quickly became painful 21:50:31 forth for a simple cpu ? 21:50:37 machine language ? 21:51:25 --- join: Jim7J1AJH (~jwt@n1.dskk.co.jp) joined #forth 21:51:31 no -- using forth on Linux to generate x86 native code to run on Linux -- but now i'm looking at using something else 21:52:02 consider putting an avr emulator (available for linux) on your box, and ask robert whether he'd like the idea to get his avr forth, machine code, build together. 21:52:28 is avr some kind of cpu? 21:52:42 microcontroller. single chip computer. cheap. 21:53:05 can develop for and on emulator, but run it on real chip too 21:53:23 ah. well, my goal is x86 native code. 21:53:42 write an assembler 21:53:53 bigforth maybe ? 21:54:28 "write an assembler" -- i'm doing that now -- actually, an assembler generator. 21:54:39 there is an assembler in bigforth ... 21:54:51 bigforth - crashes too much, 21:55:17 to fix it requires browsing from within bigforth, which crashes too much, .... 21:55:26 not bigforth. it just doesn't protect from programming errors 21:55:44 not many forths do 21:55:49 gforth does a bit 21:56:03 reading bigforth's block files requires xbigforth, but xbigforth doesn't really work. 21:56:21 (bigforth's kernel is stored in block files) 21:56:59 catch-22 unfortunately. that's what drove me to isforth. 21:57:48 no need for xbigforth 21:58:02 just started bigforth. 21:58:11 can n list forth.scr 21:59:01 ah. you mean, there's no editor ? 21:59:20 are xbigforth's xref features available in bigforth? 21:59:55 what features do you require ? 22:00:01 well, i can't seem to find anything in bigforth, even if i'm sure it's in there somewhere 22:00:33 n1 n2 index 22:01:27 features in bigforth? most important: doesn't crash when using editor 22:01:49 unlikely 22:01:50 (i mean editor in xbigforth) 22:02:15 happened to me a few times, 22:02:30 were talking "bigforth" 22:02:31 now i'm afraid to breathe on it :) 22:02:43 x interface has afaik a few bug 22:03:08 "a few bugs" -- yep 22:03:21 there's the "see" feature in bigforth too 22:04:06 the text commands (like "list" and "index") don't seem to be documented 22:05:21 list has been historically in forth, for showing contents of blocks. with ans forth, blocks are optional, and those are not widely used anymore 22:05:49 index was widel used too, but don't know whether it was standard. i think not 22:06:07 it is easy to implement 22:06:09 index not in ans 22:06:22 so about any block based forth had it 22:06:24 nor list of course 22:06:41 nope. index is also for block based file system 22:06:46 the old blocks-based editors were just too painful 22:07:00 true. 22:07:05 i've been spoiled by Emacs, i guess 22:07:53 anyway, in order to whip bigforth into shape, i have to understand it thoroughly, and 22:08:02 but, there are plenty of plain ascii files with bigforth 22:08:08 that would be too painful using only the blocks commands 22:08:39 not required to use screens 22:08:46 just plain ascii files 22:08:50 editor of choice 22:09:26 yep, lots of ascii text files, but the kernel source is in blocks 22:09:45 wanna edit the kernel source, or view it ? 22:10:01 view and edit, because i suspect a segfault bug there 22:10:30 i suspect a bug causing segfault in your source :) 22:10:47 try / 22:10:54 result: segfault 22:11:02 try 0 @ 22:11:05 segfault 22:11:19 about anything illegal segfaults 22:11:20 no, i'm sure it's not my source because i had no source :) 22:11:37 was just browsing, using bigforth's built-in features 22:11:46 then, by what you typed 22:12:30 / is a "built-in feature" 22:12:58 or, to be sure, make it 0 / 22:13:32 you mean "by trying out the available word, without knowing in detail what they do" ? 22:13:38 yes ... but i was not entering any forth commands.... was just browsing around the blocks containing the kernel source.... boom segfault 22:13:52 xbigforth, or bigforth ? 22:13:59 xbigforth 22:14:13 the "x" is the difference 22:14:46 forth is usually too simple to contain lots of undetected segfaulting bugs 22:14:55 but x interface isn't 22:15:28 maybe.... i also noticed an error while building bigforth: 22:15:32 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 22:15:57 s/:/ kernel:/ 22:16:06 "branch offset out of 1-byte rangebranch offset out of 1-byte range" 22:16:22 wow 22:16:29 8-bit branches 22:16:30 version 2.09 (latest?) 22:16:43 yep... so i wanted to look inside the kernel 22:16:47 got 1.22 here :) 22:17:00 ah... maybe that's why you're so happy :) 22:17:45 i hardly use bigforth 22:18:03 what do you use most? 22:18:03 consider, alternatively, eforth 22:18:30 ok, i'll take a look at eforth. thanks. 22:18:37 depends on where i use forth. on pc, linux, i tend to use gforth 22:19:32 i don't like gforth because the register assignments change with each version, 22:19:48 eforth is smaller than bigforth 22:19:51 they are even different between gforth and gforth-fast 22:20:06 from the same release 22:20:12 about 30 k executable 22:20:32 has no blocks 22:21:47 eforth might be interesting, thanks. 22:22:05 well, i have to go soon. thanks for your help, Speuler. 22:22:15 it says "the best docs is the source" 22:22:20 np 22:22:29 my pleasure 22:23:05 :) "best doc is the source" uh oh :) 22:23:30 dup works the same in about any forth system 22:23:52 the most important words do 22:23:58 across standards 22:24:06 yep, it when you get into the deep details (required for writing compilers) that things change like dreams 22:24:15 ignore them 22:24:20 write your own :) 22:25:02 hah! i just might write my own if i get the urge :) 22:25:21 quite feasable 22:25:33 wrote a forth in 3.5 days shortly ago 22:26:01 a threaded kernel is simple enough, 22:26:22 that is, 3.5 days till the outer interpreter worked complety, allowing me to do colon defs, and the like 22:26:31 but i need a good reason to produce "yet another forth" 22:26:43 educational 22:27:13 well, i already know how to do it, so education is not important to me, 22:27:37 ok. i sometimes write a forth just for fun 22:27:40 i just need to justify producing yet another implementation of much the same thing 22:28:04 fun is a good reason :) 22:28:15 my last creation is bashforth 22:28:22 forth written in bash 22:28:29 (that was the fun) 22:28:47 heh, that must have been quite a hack :) 22:28:56