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08:19:45 i suppose so. 08:20:06 : recurse last @ name> , ; immediate 08:21:08 yes. works 08:22:20 name> , :)) 08:22:41 funny dict representation 08:23:30 tho, the full picture is still not clear 2 me 08:24:01 central "address" of a word is the word index. can easily index header, and xts through it 08:24:35 easy. 08:24:38 headers in array 08:24:43 xts in array 08:24:59 k 08:25:01 one-to-one correspondence 08:25:10 * onetom is investigating name> 08:25:17 contents of last is actually the word number 08:26:10 array x contains execution tokens 08:27:27 last @ name type 08:27:41 last @ name> execute 08:28:18 oh... why is it bash? 08:28:30 ah, okay :) 08:28:55 btw, u missed 2 increment the version number in hello 08:30:18 line 6 , version= , is what is used by hello. what does your version say ? 08:30:22 oh, 0.33 08:30:26 seen it 08:31:00 * Speuler hits himself on the head with a 12 ton steam roller 08:32:42 that vase ;) 08:34:17 "microsoft office on linux servers 08:34:31 " 08:34:31 " 08:34:31 shudder 08:34:39 codeweavers/tarantella 08:34:54 crossover office edition 08:56:18 7 seconds to include a file of 9 lines :) 09:06:24 onetom: after having loaded radix once, "dot" can be called from bash command line too 09:06:41 maybe add the echo $result to the fn 09:08:40 aha 09:13:11 Speuler: how can 1 do sed -e 's/xxx/...\n...' 09:13:12 ? 09:14:08 quote it 09:14:24 sed -e s/"xxx"/"xx\nxx"/ 09:14:57 i also tried 09:15:05 sed -e 's/xxx/... 09:15:06 works here 09:15:08 .../' 09:15:14 sed --version ? 09:15:30 4.0.5-4 09:16:17 hahhh 09:16:27 echo -e "aaaaaaxxxbbbbbb" | sed -e s/"xxx"/"yy\nyy"/ 09:16:30 * onetom says apt-get update / upgrade 09:17:33 --- quit: flyfly (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:17:33 --- quit: Klaw (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:17:34 --- quit: TreyB (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:17:34 --- quit: ChanServ (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:18:00 --- join: TreyB (~trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 09:18:00 --- join: Klaw (anonymouse@ip68-4-155-247.oc.oc.cox.net) joined #forth 09:18:00 --- join: flyfly (~marekb@ip164.ktvprerov.cz) joined #forth 09:19:16 onetom: quoting just the "\n" should be sufficient 09:19:17 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:20:49 Speuler: it doesnt work w pre4 seds 09:21:08 --- join: TreyB (~trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 09:24:00 * onetom is wondering how does color4th eliminates the create does structure 09:24:10 does anybody know ir? 09:24:12 it 09:37:30 --- join: joonas (jpihlaja@kruuna.helsinki.fi) joined #forth 09:37:53 hi all 09:59:53 Speuler: the compressed version of bashforth is on the way 10:00:02 Speuler: wanna c a preview? 10:04:52 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 10:04:52 --- mode: calvino.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 10:04:52 --- mode: ChanServ set +l 83 10:34:30 colorforth doesn't have create/does... 10:34:38 what did you want to know? 10:35:06 I think this is one of those "avoid the problem" things 10:48:49 go to go. bye 10:48:51 --- quit: joonas ("ircII2.8.2-EPIC3.004+Kasi --- Bloatware at its finest.") 11:14:18 --- join: Fractal_ (panav@2001:618:4:15f6:0:666:666:666) joined #forth 11:22:11 --- quit: Fractal (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 11:42:59 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 11:56:32 --- quit: semtex (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 11:57:40 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 12:35:27 --- join: semtex (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4280.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 12:35:33 --- join: Speuler (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4280.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 12:37:24 Hi there, Speuler. 12:49:02 --- quit: semtex (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 12:49:55 --- join: semtex (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4ec7.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 12:56:57 --- join: CaffeineJunkie (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4ec7.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 12:57:13 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:57:22 --- quit: CaffeineJunkie (Client Quit) 12:57:45 --- nick: semtex -> Speuler 12:58:17 onetom: compressed = source massaged ? 12:58:31 hi rob 13:00:22 --- quit: TreyB () 13:04:52 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:05:55 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 13:12:45 i was thinking about the following: 13:13:33 lets say a forth interpreter is written, using pseudo-code 13:14:17 "A forth interpreter is written, using pseudo-code." :-) 13:14:31 now we take a database, for different languages, which translates the pseudo-code into program statements of the targeted language 13:14:47 we run the targetted compiler over the generated code 13:14:56 and produce a native version of forth 13:16:34 Kitanin: not necessarily, often they are written in assembly lang 13:17:15 it is easier to translate pseudo-code into asm then asm into pseudo-code 13:17:51 Erm... I wasn't debating you. That was the obligatory lame-joke response. :-D 13:18:31 that goes along with my thoughts about how to proceed to get bashforth to generate a native-code version :) 13:19:50 i wouldn't mind if the process of generating a target version is slow because the interpreter is 13:20:10 It's not going to be a _great_ version of Forth, but aside from that, methinks that could work. 13:20:55 it would be as great as you put great things into the pseudo-code version (call it the template) 13:21:33 the rest would be loaded from forth source anyway 13:22:46 But the core of the Forth is still built less like an Assembly core and more like a C (for example) core. 13:23:16 hmm. no. just virtual. the translater would make it c-alike or asm-alike or whatever 13:23:25 s/ater/ator/ 13:24:58 i mean, if my pseudo code for "next" would be (ip+)->w ; (w) , 13:25:09 what would be c-like about it ? 13:25:42 (this assumes indirect threading 13:25:43 ) 13:26:03 could think about making the virtual version less model-specific 13:26:36 Well, when you convert the pseudo-code to C, the resultant code is going to make C assumptions. 13:26:37 maybe, just "next" is pseudo enough 13:27:05 yes, "when translated to c" . sure. must do. 13:27:45 So, the resultant core is probably going to be less efficient than an assembly-coded core. 13:28:00 but, if you translate it to cobol, there are probably not much c conventions in the generated source anymore 13:28:11 Ba. 13:28:11 Rum. 13:28:13 Bum. 13:28:23 :-) 13:28:26 what if we translate it to "cpu xxxx assembly" ? 13:28:52 (done so already) 13:29:01 that is, virtual forth to misc asm 13:29:08 Is that going to save anything over just writing the core in assembly to begin with, though? 13:29:12 better, virtual asm to real asm 13:29:55 --- quit: flyfly ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.2.1") 13:29:59 t'is about the same. difference would be that the interpreter components would go into the language database 13:30:20 along with translations for other cpus and languages 13:31:02 and, for those words we haven't got a low-level version in the target lang, we'd use a high-level implementation 13:31:57 low-level = target language , high-level = forth colon definition 13:34:07 difference to "just writing the core in asm" is that you could for example easily change the threading type. say, byte code 13:34:30 just retranslate, choosing a different target 13:35:24 Well, if you change your threading model frequently... :-) 13:35:35 an interpreter that portable could easily set a de-facto standard, as fig did 13:36:56 yes, you change frequently, because you frequently create a system for new machines. 13:37:16 Well, you do. I keep recreating my system for the one machine. :-) 13:37:44 ok, if you run one machine only, or several identical ones, there's limited use to being able to port easily 13:38:03 but then, you just don't use the translator :) 13:39:27 robert might say "please roll me out an avr version, byte token threaded" 13:39:48 i might say "pxa direct thread please" 13:39:58 Roll me something, Speuler. 13:40:22 I'd like a subroutine threaded Forth for the AVR VM. 13:40:34 Robert: i need your help with the avr 13:40:51 What are you trying to do? 13:41:12 read the last 60..80 lines 13:42:20 step 1 would probably (again:) a stripped-down interpreter 13:42:45 s/ly (a/ly be (a/ 13:43:04 ;) 13:43:10 Okay, wait a minute. 13:43:14 well, that's easy to do 13:43:30 step 2 is vitualizing it 13:43:33 virt... 13:44:18 i'd target bash first :) 13:44:36 quick turnaround cycle ... 13:45:17 Hmm. 13:45:27 Isn't that kind of the idea with a high-level language? :) 13:45:46 Do you mean that we should create a high-level language, just to implement a Forth in it? 13:46:04 basically, yes. or no, not quite. more, a notation 13:46:13 a translatable notation 13:46:23 or use an existing one 13:47:24 Hmm. 13:47:36 Quite an interesting idea, actually. 13:52:14 Robert: i've written the forth runtime part for PIC which should be similar to avr 13:52:52 i could upload hi-level forth word to the pic, and execute them 13:53:06 only about 80 bytes ram available :) 13:53:36 compilation and upload was done by another cpu in the same system 13:54:09 pic was only the i/o controller. with the vm, programmable i/o controller :) 13:55:07 was for the 16xx series, i.e. 14-bit code cpu 13:55:38 too ram starved to allow a full interpreter 13:56:00 The AVR is _a lot_ more programmer-friednly than the PIC. 13:56:16 The PIC is wierd, and a bit too minimalistic. 13:56:40 yes, people told me "you can't upload programs to it" 13:56:51 http://robert.zizi.org/mtv.html <-- where my project is hosted, btw. 13:56:54 ok. i can't upload new primitives 13:56:59 Hm. 13:57:39 I got the DataFlash code to work, so now I have 256 kB of memory to play with. :) 13:57:49 That could be used to create a big Forth system. 13:58:36 indeed. pic 16c73 had i think 4 k of rom, and two register banks of 128 bytes, where the first i think 32 where mirrored 13:59:14 quite a difference 14:02:04 with plenty of registers, you might consider using a stack cache for tos 14:02:59 "Stack cache"? 14:03:25 It takes one cycle to load TOS. No cache should be needed. 14:03:50 Would take even more if I cached it :P 14:03:59 with stack cache, it takes no cycle 14:04:09 and saves some instructions 14:04:25 dup: pop push push versus push 14:04:39 or load push versus push 14:05:02 Right, but the upper half (the most usable one) is already occupied for other things. 14:05:04 a few primitives get more complex, but most geet simpler 14:05:27 pick, fetch, unaries get simpler 14:05:34 1+ inc tos 14:05:40 no indirection used 14:08:19 example: not from your code 14:08:24 ld, com, st 14:08:27 versus 14:08:28 com 14:09:36 about each unary primitive would save two instructions 14:10:27 that is two cycles each, even if accessing tos on stack itself doesn't involve a penalty 14:11:31 as stack is accessed often, you're continously popping and pushing tos 14:11:42 where it could just as well stay in a register 14:12:53 "monadics" is i think the term for the unaries 14:13:20 even with two elements, you gain advantage often 14:13:39 because, often oyu have reg to mem or mem to reg, but no mem-to-mem instructions 14:13:58 for example, with swap 14:14:15 if you can exchange reg with mem, you're done with one instruction 14:14:28 if both sit in mem, you're not 14:17:49 if not exchange, only ld and st, you get 3 instead of 4 instructions for swap 14:18:10 [sp]->tmp, tos->[sp], temp->tos 14:18:39 that is. only two mem-reg and reg-mem, instead of 4 14:19:46 you can swap without extra tmp reg too :) 14:19:56 --- quit: Herkamire ("leaving") 14:20:11 xor [sp],tmp xor tmp,[sp], xor [sp],tmp 14:20:20 but 3 reg-mem again 14:21:41 where one is read-modify-write 14:24:54 All right... 14:25:17 You can't do swapping or arithmetics with memory data, btw. 14:25:30 But still, I don't feel like rewriting it all ;) 14:25:55 i didn't say you'd have to rewrite 14:26:19 that's only to take into consideration should you move to version 4 14:26:20 Or modifying, even. 14:26:23 Hehe. 14:26:25 :) 14:26:28 Thanks. 14:27:43 there are two-element stack caching implementations, but i think the added complexity doesn't pay back 14:27:56 one element seems just about right 14:28:42 with native-code compiilers, it is a different issue 14:29:02 as complexity sits in the compiler, not in the generated code 14:29:16 those can profit from stack cache > 1 14:29:35 but forth vms don't 14:30:44 to get an idea how stack caching affects primitives, have a look at iforth or bashforth. both use it 14:30:52 isforth, i mean 14:31:12 i440r was kind of reluctant first too :) 14:31:32 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc1-login44.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 14:31:39 I know, I've been playing quite a lot with IsForth. 14:32:05 But every time I try to cache TOS, I get 10 times as many bugs as I usually get :P 14:32:30 only affects primitives 14:32:34 Yep. 14:32:43 Guess where the bugs are! ;) 14:32:44 is transparent for hl words 14:32:49 I know. 14:33:03 hi tcn 14:33:07 g'd evening to you 14:33:10 hi 14:33:17 Hi tcn 14:33:44 so the "TOS in EAX" option is broken? 14:34:10 not that i know. isforth only used as example. talking about another implementation 14:34:34 oh.. eforth? 14:34:39 rforth 14:34:57 not retroforth, just rforth? good :) 14:35:02 rforth is robert's avr forth 14:35:38 Yet to be written :) 14:35:39 actually, mvt 14:36:10 mtv, that's the VM... no Forth for it so far :) Only a quick Forth cross-compiler I wrote in IsForth. 14:37:08 right now, mvt is subroutine threaded 14:37:29 how big is the return stack on avr ? 14:37:38 (pic was 8 elements ..) 14:37:42 Whatever size you make it :) 14:37:51 On the AVRs with RAM, that is. 14:37:59 I think it's like 4 or 8 elements on the ones without RAM. 14:38:11 But most AVRs have some internal RAM. 14:38:31 call/jsr can stack to ram ? 14:39:30 with threaded code in pic, i could extend the number of nesting levels vasly 14:40:02 cause the vm stored return address in a stack, using pic registers 14:40:52 Yes. 14:42:40 tcn: if you're interested in a really slow forth, there's bashforth, written in bash 14:43:10 http://logilan.info/~l 14:44:13 known bug with include (last version) : \ in source is suppressed. missing -r option with read in word "from" 14:45:07 according herkamire, it is 40000 times slower than his native ppc forth 14:45:14 heh 14:45:28 i would be interested in a better sh :) 14:45:38 there's a "bash" word in bashforth 14:45:44 but it only shells to bash 14:46:24 'sh' is a good concept but 'bash' is overkill 14:47:13 i mean it's so bizarre, it's easier just to write a C program, or even perl.. 14:47:40 writing forth in bash is not complicated, except for line input parsing 14:48:11 you must like bash more than I do.. did you write bash? 14:48:21 nope 14:48:29 better than command.com :) 14:49:04 i oughtta write a basic 'sh' with command line history/editing, that's all ya need. 14:49:16 dash 14:49:30 hmm 14:49:43 it better not use any freakin libraries 14:50:08 dash has been targetted towards floppy-based linux systems 14:50:59 is it the one for V2 OS? 14:51:36 only know it from dash being in debian dist 14:53:22 no cmd line editing though ... 14:53:53 backspace works 14:54:22 i did that kind of stuff for BBSes, I think I can handle it myself :) 14:55:00 see ya.. i'm gonna go write me a shell :) 14:55:10 bye tcn 14:55:33 --- quit: tcn () 14:57:48 * Speuler starts virtualizing bash forth 15:01:03 maybe "save-system" for bashforth first 15:09:33 first go looks like this: 15:09:46 targetname=bash35.test 15:09:47 target=bash 15:09:47 rm $targetname 15:09:47 function generate { 15:09:47 cat virt.$1.$target >> $targetname 15:09:47 } 15:09:49 generate prolog 15:09:51 generate next 15:09:53 generate nest 15:09:55 generate unnest 15:10:02 and so on 15:10:44 "database" is the choice of filenames. like virt.prolog.bash 15:10:51 or virt.prolog.cobol 15:12:22 ahem 15:12:30 virt.bash.prolog 15:15:33 improvement: 15:16:02 function generate { 15:16:03 for i in $* ; do 15:16:03 cat virt.$i.$target >> $targetname 15:16:03 done 15:16:03 } 15:16:14 allows: 15:16:21 generates next nest unnest 15:25:58 --- quit: Kitanin ("Client killed by developer sick of answering stupid questions.") 15:34:25 ok. result of first go still works :) 16:02:35 --- join: abc (~abc@p50805770.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 16:02:47 bon soir 16:04:35 Guten Abend :) 16:04:57 helo robert. 16:05:32 realmode is 16bit isn't it? 16:06:05 Yes. 16:06:24 what are you hacking atm, robert? 16:07:43 To be honest, I'm just talking on IRC, reading the Hitchhiker's giude to the galaxy, eating some candy and listening to Pink Floyd. 16:07:53 But if I would be hacking, I'd be hacking Forth! 16:08:10 :-) 16:08:43 You? 16:09:43 repairing&testing a box for a customer, not bad either ;-) 16:12:05 he wanted 2kpro, so i'll probably give him mdk 16:12:28 additionally, of course... 16:13:57 or should i install debian? 16:15:50 Haha. 16:15:54 Debian, of course. :) 16:16:11 Customer.. so you're old and working, eh? 16:36:09 am i? :-) 16:36:48 Or not. 16:37:09 You could be 12, your parents call you a computer "wizard", but the only one who knows how stupid you are, is you. 16:38:09 whom are you talking about, robert? :-) 16:42:16 Myself, in a sense. 16:42:26 i've already learned the first three letters ;-) 16:42:32 Yay. 16:43:26 is that english, yay? 16:44:53 I guess it is. :) 16:45:15 what does it mean? 16:46:22 i mean for english ppl 16:48:10 Oh. 16:48:47 I use it like I use "Weee!" ;) 16:49:00 Don't think I speak English THAT well, heh. 16:49:51 onetom could have told you that too ;-) 16:50:46 so i wondered if that was really genuine english... 16:51:26 1tom uses his own version english which isnt similar 2 what we other would use 16:51:27 ;) 16:51:50 abc is used in australia as abbrev for "australian born chinese" 16:52:06 and in DE abc knows himself 16:52:39 greetz abc 16:53:27 LOL australian born chinese 16:53:57 you're creative tonight :-) 16:54:18 i didn't make that one up 16:59:24 --- quit: Klaw (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 17:01:44 --- quit: abc ("ChatZilla 0.8.9 [Mozilla rv:1.1/20020826]") 17:05:29 Robert: do you know music from "Gwar" ? 17:05:42 sounds a bit like mrbungle .... 17:05:57 No. 17:06:13 think i have to get me some more 17:07:00 --- join: abc (~abc@p50805770.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 17:07:47 hello again 17:07:53 tach 17:08:11 my kbd left 17:08:27 Aww... 17:08:39 it's like being devoiced 17:09:00 Makes you cry. 17:09:06 griasdi speuler :-) 17:09:36 grias di aa 17:09:58 aa? 17:10:02 auch 17:10:06 ää! 17:10:33 aahh 17:12:36 8 hops to you isn't far ... 17:13:04 festwiesn hier 17:13:32 apm is not working correctly on this box too :-( 17:15:30 so you're on a mission, Speuler? ;-) 17:15:46 a mission called "life" 17:15:58 or "survival" :) 17:18:19 haven't seen festwiesn a dekade ago 17:19:10 was winter tollwood 2 months ago 17:20:44 i like tollwood better than oktoberfest 17:22:02 they do jazz concerts there 17:22:29 there was a concert in the aenima today. (kunstgaragen) 17:22:37 quite fascinating fusion 17:24:01 aenima is about 400 m from the wiesn 17:24:08 i'm right in the middle 17:24:33 actually, closer to the wiesn than to kunstgaragen 17:28:38 * abc has to leave this box for now 17:29:09 Speuler, Robert: bb cu 17:29:26 --- quit: abc (".") 17:43:17 Heh, cute little song. 17:45:59 noisy but not destructive 17:54:56 --- nick: Fractal_ -> Fractal 17:55:02 --- quit: Fractal ("BitchX: coming soon to a theatre near you!") 17:57:12 --- join: Fractal (zotoving@2001:618:4:2000:0:0:0:10dc) joined #forth 18:13:18 --- join: gilbertbsd (~gilbert@fl-nked-ubr2-c3a-29.dad.adelphia.net) joined #forth 18:35:13 --- join: I440r (~mark4@ip209-183-83-112.ts.indy.net) joined #forth 19:12:33 Hi there 19:12:43 where ;) 19:12:50 THERE! BEHIND YOU! 19:12:59 * Robert shoots the I440r. 19:13:07 * gilbertbsd ducks 19:22:59 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 19:33:14 Robert: i gonna install the avr emulator 19:34:46 os-less machine, stand-alone, probably simpler for another translator target. don't need to grapple with executable format for the moment 19:35:31 and i can steal primitives from you :) 19:36:00 maybe you gonna run bashforth on the avr ... 19:51:22 hi gilbertbsd 19:51:31 hi bueler 19:51:35 didn't notice you coming in 19:51:48 I had to duck becaues robert was shooting. 19:52:22 got new plans for bashforth 19:52:33 on the way already 19:52:52 i'm just virtualizing its code 19:52:53 whats it gonna do? 19:53:03 stuff it in a database 19:53:20 language specific 19:53:41 what do you mean? 19:53:50 intention is to have a language-independent file 19:53:57 which, when translated, 19:54:12 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-64-169-95-29.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 19:54:14 generates source for language/cpu of choice 19:54:21 Sonarman: have you seen bashforth ? 19:54:34 hmmm Speuler for all bashes? 19:54:55 gilbertbsd: no, i haven't, i'm googling for it now, though :) 19:55:01 so it generates source for bash, or asm, or whatever language we got in the database 19:55:03 ah no, talk to Speuler 19:55:13 haha tab completion rocks :) 19:55:17 speuler ? 19:55:20 thats me 19:55:23 hehe. 19:55:32 Sonarman: logilan.info/~l/ 19:55:54 the bashforth source is now 69 lines long 19:56:06 wow, cool! 19:56:07 but need to split it up a bit more 19:56:24 looks like: 19:56:37 targetname=bashforth 19:56:37 target=bash 19:56:53