00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.02.25
00:14:25 <Serg_Penguin> z
00:25:04 * Serg_Penguin sold monitor and sits w/o comp at home :(((
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04:32:50 <Serg_Penguin> hi !
04:33:16 <Klaw> ih !
04:33:29 <Robert> Privet :)
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08:14:22 <gilbertbsd> hi speuler
08:15:10 <Speuler> ah. hi gilbertbsd
08:15:39 <gilbertbsd> how is making portable bash?
08:16:27 <Speuler> found one problem with bash 2.05a
08:16:27 <Speuler> looks like bash bug
08:16:36 <gilbertbsd> whats that?
08:17:05 <Speuler> let  behaves inconsistenly together with bitwise and or
08:17:41 <Speuler> or'ed a variable with a bitmask, variable remained 0
08:18:12 <Speuler> but, not always ...
08:18:29 <Speuler> couldn't isolate the conditions
08:18:39 <Speuler> behaved erratically
08:19:03 <Speuler> suddenly it worked, then it didn't again
08:20:30 <Speuler> looking at the changelog of 2.05b will probably tell
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09:26:17 <Speuler> v0.29 speedups in comparisons, move, emits asciis 0...31 
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11:18:39 <Phactorial> knoppix?
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11:20:20 <gilbertbsd> yeah
11:20:26 <gilbertbsd> its linux/debian on a cd.
11:20:32 <Phactorial> Any good?
11:20:34 <Phactorial> I know
11:20:46 <gilbertbsd> I can't watch movies on my rh8.0 installation 
11:21:11 <gilbertbsd> only problem with knoppix is that you can't install many new things.
11:21:19 <gilbertbsd> otherwise I am doing just fine with it.
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12:13:52 <Herkamire> gentoo
12:14:02 <Herkamire> gentoo.org
12:14:29 <Herkamire> very cool source distro
12:14:41 <gilbertbsd> Herkamire:  I hear its an annoyance to use.
12:15:09 <Herkamire> not at all
12:15:33 <Phactorial> Herkamire: www.freebsd.org
12:15:36 <gilbertbsd> I find freebsd to be the most useable
12:15:38 <Phactorial> Very cool source distro
12:15:38 <gilbertbsd> touche...
12:15:43 * Phactorial nods at gilbertbsd
12:15:44 <gilbertbsd> Phactorial:  you shoulda let me finish ;)
12:15:47 <Phactorial> gilbertbsd: Heya!!! ;)
12:15:56 <Phactorial> gilbertbsd: Mind if I version you?
12:16:12 <gilbertbsd> heheh, for ease of use, if it is comparable to freebsd then its good enough :D
12:16:21 <gilbertbsd> I'm currently on knoppix remember?
12:16:29 <Phactorial> gilbertbsd: Yes, I wanted to check the kernel
12:16:35 <gilbertbsd> ah okay sure.
12:16:38 <gilbertbsd> if it will work.
12:16:44 <Phactorial> gilbertbsd: gilbertbsd- VERSION xchat 1.8.9 Linux 2.4.19-xfs [i686/348MHz]
12:16:55 <Phactorial> gilbertbsd: Hrm...what work have you done with FreeBSD?
12:17:11 <gilbertbsd> I used it from 99 until 2002 september.
12:17:26 <gilbertbsd> I have done a few kernel compiles :)
12:17:30 <Phactorial> What happened?
12:17:44 <gilbertbsd> I moved from ohio to miami and left the box in ohio.
12:17:51 <gilbertbsd> I still have to go get it.
12:18:41 <gilbertbsd> Phactorial: how long have you been on freebsd for?
12:18:50 <gilbertbsd> heheh 'been on' makes it sound like some drug.
12:19:09 <Robert> Pff
12:19:17 <gilbertbsd> don't say debian :D
12:19:28 <Robert> Debian is TEH GOOD.
12:19:33 <gilbertbsd> I have debian running undreneath this.
12:19:40 <Phactorial> gilbertbsd: Not sure
12:19:44 <Phactorial> gilbertbsd: Not too long
12:20:26 <gilbertbsd> Robert: Debian GNU/\s testing/unstable \n \l
12:21:07 <gilbertbsd> Phactorial what do you use it for? fun only?
12:21:53 <Phactorial> Yes gilbertbsd
12:22:00 <Phactorial> gilbertbsd: but I try to involve myself where I can help
12:22:53 <gilbertbsd> yeah I don't have 'helper' status yet.
12:22:59 <gilbertbsd> I am still a user/advocate :D
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13:08:58 <Speuler> v0.30 uploaded. respects base for . and number input
13:23:17 <Herkamire> I became disinterested in BSD (FreeBSD I think) when I found that sftp (and maybe scp) don't work on it
13:23:28 <gilbertbsd> at all?
13:23:35 <Herkamire> at all
13:23:50 <Herkamire> I read up on it and found that it hadn't been ported
13:24:15 <gilbertbsd> how recently?
13:24:22 <Herkamire> a year ago
13:24:28 <Herkamire> it put a bad taste in my mouth
13:24:40 <gilbertbsd> as in 12 months ago or more?
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13:24:59 <Herkamire> yup
13:25:14 <Herkamire> and I like linux. I'm using the syscalls. I'm not about to change to bsd.
13:25:35 <Herkamire> I'm sure some of the BSDs have better kernels and networking or something.
13:25:58 <Herkamire> but I want compatibility
13:26:05 <gilbertbsd> http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/url.cgi?ports/ftp/sftp/pkg-descr
13:26:14 <gilbertbsd> its there.
13:27:01 <Herkamire> coool
13:29:19 <gilbertbsd> I do not know what the version of linux is, but on freebsd its still in the 0.9's.
13:29:27 <Herkamire> maybe it wasn't ported at the time because it's useless :) I use scp and rsync
13:31:53 <gilbertbsd> it wasnt ported because the 'porter' stopped work on the project.
13:35:32 <Herkamire> mostly I don't switch because I haven't heard good reasons for doing so, and I like what I have (and I know linux)
13:36:49 <tathi> and FreeBSD seems to be the biggest of the BSD thingies, and it doesn't run on PPC last I checked
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13:37:40 <gilbertbsd> yes it does'nt run on ppc.
13:37:45 <gilbertbsd> openbsd does though.
13:37:53 <tathi> and NetBSD, I think
13:38:11 <gilbertbsd> yes. openbsd is a netbsd fork
13:39:01 <tathi> basically I've always been planning to switch to my own OS once I get off my ass and finish writing one, so I'm not too worried about whether I'm using the best *nix kernel :-)
13:39:12 <gilbertbsd> I managed to run openbsd on a mac se/30, but I had one of those 'windows nt in 24 hour' tomes on a shelf... it fell and broke the mac's tube.
13:39:30 <tathi> it wasn't meant to be...
13:40:09 <gilbertbsd> I should have kept the mac covered, not exposed.
13:40:18 <gilbertbsd> it was a sad, sad demise.
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13:40:51 <gilbertbsd> tathi is your own os going to be colorforth?
13:41:00 <Herkamire> an operating system shouldn't be complex enough to crush the box...
13:41:17 <tathi> those windows people will do _anything_ to stop you from switching platforms :-P
13:41:27 <tathi> gilbertbsd: yeah
13:41:34 <gilbertbsd> tathi:  it was completely surreal.
13:41:46 <gilbertbsd> I could not believe what was happening. it was more than just 'accident'.
13:42:20 <tathi> I don't see anything to stop me from providing a normal forth interface as well
13:42:21 <Herkamire> lul
13:42:25 <tathi> but personally I like colorforth
13:42:28 <Herkamire> s/u/o/
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14:54:12 <gilbertbsd> hi tcn
14:54:19 <tcn> hey
14:54:24 <gilbertbsd> do you have bashforth too?
14:55:14 <tcn> nope :)
14:55:21 <gilbertbsd> :O
14:55:40 <tcn> I guess RetroForth is coming along pretty good
14:55:44 <gilbertbsd> speuler bashforth is here:-> http://logilan.info/~l/
14:55:48 <gilbertbsd> whats retroforth?
14:56:32 <tcn> this Forth-OS I started.. someone else is working on it now
14:57:31 <Robert> Hmm... I got to write a Forth for my AVR board, now when I got the flash chip to work.
14:57:59 <Robert> That's going to be nice, coding Forth _on_, not just for, a microcontroller :)
14:58:35 <tcn> what's avr?
14:59:01 <Robert> Atmel's 8-bit microcontroller family.
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16:47:38 <Speuler> v0.31 uploaded. pictured number output  ( <# # #s sign #> #>type ) added
16:49:08 <Speuler> special feature: <#   #>  may be nested
16:49:36 <Speuler> such as in    123 <#     456 <# #s #> type space   #s #> type
16:54:42 <Speuler> oh. i forgot "hold" :)
17:12:27 <Speuler> fixed in v0.31a . uploaded
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17:32:45 <Robert> Fractal, he sold his IPv4 address to the devil.
17:34:26 <gilbertbsd> Speuler:  I thought you said you were getting rid of 'code' or was that only in that one section?
17:35:04 <Speuler> gilbertbsd: i got rid of "primitive"
17:35:21 <gilbertbsd> ah okay.
17:36:23 <Speuler> can do  : foo   s" command" system ;  now
17:37:22 <Speuler> and i put "pack" and "unpack" in which convert a string ( a n ) to string in tos, and vice versa
17:37:30 <Speuler> that's kind of non-standard :)
17:40:42 <gilbertbsd> reboot
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18:08:17 <Speuler> v0.32 uploaded. system, cleaned up accept and name mess, added  pack, unpack
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18:54:54 <Robert> Hi, Speuler, Fractal 
18:55:02 <Speuler> hi the_rob
18:55:02 <gilbertbsd> net splitsplat
18:55:11 <Fractal> Hey Robert.
18:55:31 <gilbertbsd> fractal how did you come by that name?
18:55:43 <gilbertbsd> random choice?
18:55:59 <Fractal> Er... I don't remember.
18:56:04 <gilbertbsd> random choice.
18:56:06 <gilbertbsd> check :D
18:56:15 <Fractal> How did you come by 'gilbertbsd'?
18:56:20 <gilbertbsd> my name is gilbert
18:56:28 <gilbertbsd> I run freebsd for a good while.
18:56:41 <Fractal> Heh. That makes sense.
18:56:42 <gilbertbsd> and I thought it wise to use it since gilbert was taken here and on yahoo.
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18:57:09 <gilbertbsd> hahaha
18:57:21 <Fractal> I don't really like freebsd...
18:57:30 <gilbertbsd> have you used it much?
18:57:47 <Fractal> A fair amount
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18:57:53 <Fractal> I greatly prefer...
18:57:54 <Fractal> BitchX-1.0c18+ by panasync - OpenBSD 3.2
18:57:59 <gilbertbsd> aaah.
18:58:03 <Fractal> Much more of a simple design.
18:58:15 <Fractal> FreeBSD is practically a linux distribution.
18:58:33 <gilbertbsd> I heard theo was influenced by his forth programming (in?)experience.
18:59:07 <Fractal> Heh. Possibly.
19:00:44 <Speuler> does> has been broken since 0.29. fixed in coming 0.33 
19:02:52 <gilbertbsd> but doesn't openbsd crash much?
19:03:19 <Fractal> No, not at all.
19:03:32 <Fractal> It's rock solid.
19:03:42 <Fractal> Mostly because of it's well engineered, simple design.
19:04:24 <Speuler> if one needs to fix it himself, replace in does> line  "let tos=w+1" against "tos=$w"
19:04:33 <gilbertbsd> when I was running it on the mac se/30 i couldn't get a number of things to work.
19:04:53 <gilbertbsd> I think i had 28 on there at the time... before it literally got crushed.
19:05:05 <Fractal> gilbertbsd : Yeah, the m68k port isn't very well developed, but is still relatively stable.
19:05:22 <Fractal> It recognizes the ethernet in my centris, for example.
19:05:43 <Fractal> The linux/m68k port is much, much more advanced though.
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20:54:42 <Herkamire> weeee :)
20:54:47 <Herkamire> everyone should write their own forth
20:55:42 <Speuler> everyone should sew their own clothes
20:55:52 <Herkamire> I've got mine to the point where I wrote . in forth
20:56:12 <Herkamire> except that I don't have variables yet, so it only does decimal
20:56:16 <Speuler> everyone should grow their own food
20:56:31 <Herkamire> yeah, but I don't like sewing
20:56:47 <Speuler> glue them
20:57:19 <Herkamire> that was a rather broad statement though. I mean all programmers... or maybe to be safe I should say all forth programmers.
20:57:44 <Herkamire> heh :) or staples :) you can make some nice beanbags with staples :)
20:58:04 <Speuler> glueing clothes works
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20:58:24 <Herkamire> that's cool :)
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22:42:11 <Herkamire> heh :)
22:42:17 <Herkamire> bashforth is a little slow
22:42:55 <Herkamire> I just wrote a spin loop in my native forth, and it's about 40,000X faster than bashforth's spin loop
22:43:39 <Herkamire> it loops 400,000,000 in about the same time that bashforth does 10,000
22:44:15 <Herkamire> I expected 2 or 3 orders of magnitude difference, but not 4.5
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22:55:55 <Herkamire> my proc seems to get through that loop every 13 clock cycles
22:56:28 <Klaw> bash is not fast
22:56:41 <Herkamire> so my forth is a magnitude or two slower than asm :)
22:58:47 <Klaw> 4.5?
23:01:09 <Herkamire> 4+
23:18:16 <Speuler> threading in bashforth requires symbol search at run-time 
23:18:25 <Herkamire> threading?
23:18:43 <Herkamire> is threading something you do all the time?
23:18:53 <Speuler> cfa is a function name
23:19:04 <Herkamire> that's not required
23:19:20 <Herkamire> cfa should be an array index
23:19:25 <Speuler> how to get to code in bash otherwise ?
23:20:02 <Speuler> even if i put function names in arrays, they still must be searched for
23:20:13 <Speuler> i can't just point to an address
23:20:17 <Herkamire> not if you save the index into the array
23:20:50 <Speuler> and, upon reading the array element, i have a function name ?
23:21:00 <Herkamire> cfa is the compiled code (or part of it) right?
23:21:16 <Speuler> in bash, there is no compiled code
23:21:32 <Speuler> there are functions, which are referenced by name
23:21:33 <Herkamire> your compiled code should be an array of numbers
23:21:45 <Herkamire> each number is an index into an array of function pointers
23:21:58 <Speuler> ok . i got a number. and now i want to connect that number to a function .
23:22:03 <Speuler> no
23:22:07 <Herkamire> (substitute bash equivilant to function pointers)
23:22:08 <Speuler> NO pointers to functions
23:22:15 <Speuler> only names of functions
23:22:28 <Speuler> i don't know their address
23:22:31 <Herkamire> that works right?
23:22:45 <Speuler> i can't use their address
23:22:51 <Herkamire> use the name then
23:23:00 <Speuler> that's what i do
23:23:16 <Herkamire> wait, are you saying that bash looks up the name when you call the word?
23:23:23 <Herkamire> in it's internal dict?
23:23:29 <Speuler> right
23:23:30 <Speuler> right
23:23:32 <Herkamire> oh
23:23:58 <Herkamire> I thought you were saying that your code did a dictionary lookup as part of the process of running compiled code.
23:24:29 <Speuler> nope. my primitives contain as their cfa a string. which is a command. usually the name of a function
23:24:44 <Herkamire> cool
23:24:44 <Speuler> but can be external command too :)
23:24:57 <Speuler> code bash bash
23:25:10 <Speuler> "bash" as string in cfa of primitive "bash"
23:25:18 <Herkamire> heh :)
23:25:36 <Herkamire> cool
23:25:37 <Speuler> "next" does   $cfa[bash]
23:26:02 <Speuler> and  "doconst" as string in cfa of constant
23:26:13 <Speuler> which executes the function doconst ...
23:26:21 <Herkamire> sounds like you've done it right
23:26:25 <Speuler> and that's where the run time search comes in
23:26:42 <Herkamire> I'm just amazed when I come across such huge numbers
23:26:53 <Speuler> because, when executing a function, bash needs to search it first
23:27:00 <Herkamire> yeah :)
23:27:04 <Speuler> that's runtime, from viewpoint of bashforth
23:27:20 <Herkamire> :)
23:27:41 <Speuler> i might get quicker by reducing the number of primitives :)
23:27:53 <Herkamire> maybe :)
23:27:56 <Speuler> set the path no empty
23:28:04 <Speuler> erase all aliases
23:28:09 <Herkamire> that's a good idea :)
23:28:12 <Speuler> s/no/to/
23:28:33 <Herkamire> BTW I didn't mean to put bashforth down, I was just amazed at the contrast
23:28:58 <Speuler> i'm aware that that's not a quick implementation. never intended to be :)
23:29:02 <Herkamire> maybe eventually I'll get used to it and find out how such amazing fast computers take 10 secconds to start mozilla and 50 secconds to boot.
23:29:37 <Speuler> felt i needed to react when reading that bash was slow
23:29:50 <Speuler> which isn't the only reason for bashforth not quick
23:29:55 <Speuler> see threading issue
23:30:05 <Herkamire> maybe bash really isn't that slow
23:30:21 <Speuler> i expected it to be worse
23:30:34 <Herkamire> that's not that bad for doing an internal name search for each word
23:30:59 <Herkamire> maybe it has a hash table or something
23:31:27 <Herkamire> it certainly seems to have issues when you change the binaries in your path
23:31:41 <Herkamire> anyway, I gotta go to sleep
23:32:06 <Herkamire> I would have a while ago, but I couldn't resist adding tail recursion to my forth
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23:32:47 <Speuler> setting path no empty doesn't make any difference
23:33:12 <Herkamire> (now ; checks the previous instruction to see if it is a branch. if so it pops the rstack etc)
23:33:24 <Herkamire> bugger
23:34:13 <Herkamire> hmmm... that's a cool optomization I just did, but straight tail recursion would be much faster
23:35:00 <Herkamire> I think...
23:35:24 <Herkamire> I think there's extry pushing and poping of the rstack the way I have it.
23:35:28 <Herkamire> oh well,
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.02.25