00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.02.12
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02:54:59 <Klaw> Speuler: I've been idling for awhile -- but i'm new.
02:55:27 <onetom> hello klaw
02:55:39 <onetom> whats the news?
02:55:51 <Klaw> i have news?
02:57:03 <Klaw> well another day without being sexually harassed :(
02:57:31 <Klaw> thinking i need to go to cafepress and get a tshirt : I'm a programmer, please squeeze my nipple
02:57:37 <Klaw> something to that effect.
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06:18:38 * arke is away: sch00l
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07:31:27 <gilbertbsd> whoever speaks first loses this game.
07:31:28 <gilbertbsd> :)
07:42:47 <Robert> I like to lose stuff.
07:43:12 <gilbertbsd> hi robert.
07:43:14 <gilbertbsd> how are you ?
07:43:23 <Robert> Quite fine
07:44:42 <gilbertbsd> have you written a forth today?
07:44:44 <gilbertbsd> hmm?
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09:11:53 <Speuler> 'morning
09:12:08 <gilbertbsd> hi.
09:16:06 <gilbertbsd> did you find 0 yet?
09:18:13 * Speuler sticks two charge-inverted universes together
09:20:10 <Speuler> they disappear in a cloud of orange smoke
09:20:33 <Speuler> the cloud of orange smoke disappears too
09:20:38 <gilbertbsd> and whats left?
09:20:44 <gilbertbsd> where does it go to?
09:20:59 <Speuler> didn't go anywhere
09:21:07 <Speuler> nothing to go anymore
09:21:38 <Speuler> there's not left nothing because nothinh has disappeared too
09:21:46 <Speuler> :)
09:23:38 <gilbertbsd> how can that be?
09:23:41 <Speuler> everything what's left is ...
09:23:50 <Speuler> potential
09:24:08 <gilbertbsd> I was thinking while riding back home last night ... (yes I am the only person who rides a bike in Miami :D) 
09:24:22 <gilbertbsd> truth, reality and such ... all those metaphysical questions.
09:24:26 <gilbertbsd> there is an answer.
09:24:34 <Speuler> 42 ?
09:24:39 <gilbertbsd> hmmm. I wonder why the concern is with truth and not falsity  :)
09:24:48 <gilbertbsd> yes 42 is one of _the_ answers.
09:25:29 <Speuler> maybe originally it was thought that there would be less truth than falsity
09:26:05 <Speuler> there's an almost infinite potential of "false"
09:26:13 <gilbertbsd> I think it can all be determined in the entropy context.
09:26:17 <Speuler> but only a limited of "truth"
09:26:24 <gilbertbsd> false is entropy :)
09:26:32 <gilbertbsd> truth is extropy.
09:26:44 <gilbertbsd> but it is also true that false is entropy ...
09:27:10 <Speuler> the same way as is false tat true is entropy ?
09:27:45 <gilbertbsd> yes.
09:27:50 <gilbertbsd> those should be the basic premises.
09:27:57 <gilbertbsd> the absolute axioms of metaphysics :D
09:28:09 <gilbertbsd> its nice and circular and out of the way.
09:28:21 <Speuler> hmm
09:29:33 <gilbertbsd> lets give it a name so that it doesn't dissapear.
09:29:38 <gilbertbsd> Tentrolse
09:29:39 <Speuler> there's one state of entropy, but many of extropy. 
09:29:42 <gilbertbsd> tentropalse
09:29:52 <Speuler> how does that translate to "true" and "false" ?
09:30:04 <gilbertbsd> True == extropy.
09:30:10 <gilbertbsd> False == the tarpit == entropy
09:30:23 <gilbertbsd> there are several truths mind you.
09:30:38 <gilbertbsd> reason: perception differs depending on the observer.
09:30:50 <gilbertbsd> also observer changes what is perceived. sometimes.
09:33:18 <Speuler> observer can't exist in an entropic state
09:33:46 <gilbertbsd> then it is null. nothing is observed.
09:34:28 <Speuler> i can't imagine that entropic state can be any stable
09:34:34 <gilbertbsd> no its not!
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09:34:56 <gilbertbsd> ideals, perfection etc ... they are highly unstable and subject to collapse
09:35:10 <gilbertbsd> Eg, a perfectly beautiful woman. 
09:35:20 <gilbertbsd> it doesn't take much to tarnish that image...
09:35:26 <Speuler> but it's the state things go to
09:35:47 <gilbertbsd> the final resting place of it all.
09:36:08 <Speuler> "final" implies "stable"
09:38:00 <gilbertbsd> isn't entropy stable? nothing comes from it but everything goes to it.
09:38:03 <gilbertbsd> except itself.
09:38:14 <gilbertbsd> the 3rd axiom 
09:38:17 <gilbertbsd> or axiom 0
09:39:40 <Speuler> i like to think of "potential" as a physical quantity. if so, "potential" wouldn't be part of entropy
09:42:05 <gilbertbsd> do the metaphycisists know anything about entropy?
09:43:00 <Speuler> not sure. "knowing" and "anything" are on two different ends of the spectrum
09:43:38 <Speuler> it encompasses too much to judge
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09:44:01 <gilbertbsd> but they have to have some axioms...
09:44:10 <gilbertbsd> otherwise all the do is BS :D
09:44:45 <tathi> I thought that was the _point_ of theoretical cosmology?
09:45:18 <Speuler> i could feel happy with "they think they know something"
09:45:51 <gilbertbsd> tathi theoretcial cosmology == metaphysics ?
09:46:17 <hp48nik> <>
09:47:56 <Speuler> if i would have to redo the universe, i'd do it in forth
09:48:30 <gilbertbsd> why in forth?
09:48:44 <hp48nik> ": create-universe god drop science dup dup dup ;"
09:48:49 <Speuler> it is highly portable, and extendaböle
09:49:19 <Speuler> doesn't need lots of hardware to run on
09:49:44 <gilbertbsd> this world is highly configurable though not necessarily portable.
09:50:46 * Speuler remberers having started a fun project some years ago. i came to randomly chasing particles through a 3-d matrix
09:51:01 <gilbertbsd> you chased particles?
09:51:13 <gilbertbsd> were the walls in this 3-d environment white?
09:51:15 <Speuler> stopped when i was refining particle characteristics
09:51:18 <gilbertbsd> and were there 'attendants'?
09:51:24 <Speuler> i wanted  them to clump together :)
09:51:38 <gilbertbsd> is this 3-d Life?
09:51:57 <Speuler> buckminster fuller inspired :)
09:52:53 <gilbertbsd> he was full of it on some occasions.
09:53:01 <gilbertbsd> he shouldn't have spent a whole year in isolation.
09:53:21 <Speuler> iig particles cling together in some kind of geometrical shape, they could organize themselves in more or less predicatable ways
09:53:38 <gilbertbsd> legos.
09:53:46 <Speuler> with 3 particles, i'd could be triangle-shaped
09:53:51 <hp48nik> logos/legos
09:53:54 <Speuler> 4, and you got a tetraeder
09:54:03 <Speuler> and so on
09:54:24 <Speuler> B.F derived his shapes partly from that approach
09:54:48 <gilbertbsd> was this on a computer?
09:54:58 <Speuler> B.F., or me ?
09:55:37 <gilbertbsd> you.
09:55:40 <gilbertbsd> B.F. didn't have computers.
09:55:43 <Speuler> B.F. was, i think, using pen, paper and wetware
09:55:45 <hp48nik> wetware
09:55:47 <gilbertbsd> it would have been a waste of his time.
09:55:54 <hp48nik> wetware >> hardware >> software
09:56:00 <hp48nik> "much greater than"
09:56:06 <Speuler> wetware = brain
09:56:23 <Speuler> yes, i used computer
09:56:33 <Speuler> no brain -> need machine :)
09:56:48 <hp48nik> wetware writes software and builds hardware to run the software on, in order to emulate wetware very poorly
09:56:50 <gilbertbsd> aha. the fact that you could use a machine means you had a brain.
09:56:57 <gilbertbsd> hahahah
09:57:00 <hp48nik> the wet/hard/soft-ware infinite loop of stupidity
09:57:35 <Speuler> layers on layers on layers
09:57:42 <Speuler> not a loop
09:57:46 <hp48nik> you are just an emulation of reality in my wetware simulation
09:57:50 <gilbertbsd> Right. 
09:58:05 <hp48nik> but my mind is a programme running in the superbrain of some alien, probably
09:58:24 <hp48nik> http://www.tmcm.com
09:58:43 <hp48nik> BBL... bye
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10:01:20 <Speuler> i'd go as far to say that we live in a potential-driven system
10:01:58 <Speuler> no potential -> utter staticness
10:02:20 <Speuler> state may resemble entropic state
10:03:21 <Speuler> thus, potential would have to exist in isolated or seperated form too
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10:04:05 <gilbertbsd> we need several 0's.
10:04:55 <Speuler> potential could have the power to tear "nothing" apart in "positive non-nothingness" and "negative non-nothingness"
10:06:37 <Speuler> or maybe the "nothing" was too concentrated to be stable
10:07:21 <gilbertbsd> I wonder if there is a culture some place far away that has answered some of these questions fruitfully...
10:07:41 <gilbertbsd> and we suffer over it because we are missing a concept like 0 the way the ancient greeks/romans did?
10:08:21 <Speuler> ah. thatÄ's the idea of the several 0es
10:08:30 <Speuler> didn't get it right away
10:08:42 <Speuler> but, yes, i think so
10:09:12 <Speuler> vacuum is not nothing. but ...  visitor, brb
10:11:50 <Speuler> several "zero" concepts are often confused with each other
10:12:10 <Speuler> that's what you want serveral "0"s for ?
10:12:54 <gilbertbsd> I don't know.
10:12:58 <gilbertbsd> not 0 itself.
10:13:09 <gilbertbsd> but I think each system has a blind spot...
10:13:25 <gilbertbsd> and I was wondering if some other group didn't have the same blindspots.
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10:15:37 <gilbertbsd> eg. the roman/greek system had a blind spot which prevented them from really 'seeing' 0.
10:15:53 <gilbertbsd> and then when it did come about they smacked their heads and went 'duh do we look dumb'.
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10:59:38 <onetom> 1word2wrd1 wrd24dec25hex2;
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10:59:46 <onetom> 1word2wrd1 wrd24dec25hex2;
10:59:55 <onetom> 1word2wrd12wrd24dec25hex2;
11:00:10 <gilbertbsd> what does it mean?
11:00:15 <onetom> Speuler: hmm... what about such a representation?
11:00:50 <onetom> gilbertbsd: "typeable" color4th representation on irc
11:01:26 <onetom> the numbers r the functionkey number what generate a specific coloured space
11:01:30 <onetom> 1 - define
11:01:33 <onetom> 2 - compile
11:01:38 <onetom> 3 - execute
11:01:44 <onetom> 4 - decimal
11:01:46 <onetom> 5 - hex
11:01:50 <onetom> 6 - address
11:01:57 <onetom> 7 - postpone
11:02:03 <onetom> 0 - comment
11:02:52 <onetom> u can type such spaces in irssi like this: ^V1^O
11:03:08 <onetom> its rather slow ofcourse :/
11:03:34 <onetom> but more than nothing
11:04:14 <onetom> & its still readable & concise
11:09:22 <Speuler> onetom: i'd like to say "that looks really nice" but somehow i fail to experience it as such
11:09:47 <Speuler> it looks like a corrupted string to me
11:09:50 <gilbertbsd> colorforth scares me.
11:10:01 <gilbertbsd> can we just talk about zero instead ;) ?
11:10:08 <Speuler> hehe
11:10:39 <Kitanin> I suppose the question is, how many people are using an IRC client that doesn't support the colour codes in the first place?
11:11:48 <Speuler> i used to code my "words" to show word type. for coding, i think stack effect is more important than word type
11:12:10 <Speuler> 7 constant seven     : seven 7 ;     
11:12:17 <Speuler> same stack effect
11:12:24 <Speuler> same behaviour
11:12:33 <Speuler> what would i need different colors for ?
11:12:55 <gilbertbsd> I think ChuckMoore is eventually going to convince all of you to code in some abstract pure turing machine with one instruction.
11:12:57 <gilbertbsd> keep following him.
11:13:21 <Kitanin> Well, he's got us down to 17 instructions.  Not that much further to go.  :-)
11:13:46 <gilbertbsd> oh he can't do 0 instructions.
11:13:55 <gilbertbsd> but he can definitely do 1.
11:14:16 <Speuler> yes. "push"
11:14:26 <Speuler> like in "button"
11:14:38 <Speuler> or "click"
11:15:05 <Speuler> "fuse"
11:16:19 <Speuler> program memory passes along at constant speed. programs is inserted by fusing bits in program memory
11:17:31 <Speuler> inline code = pattern generator
11:17:43 <onetom> bbl
11:18:20 <onetom> gilbertbsd: c4th is very cool. me fater also gave it a try & he also liked it
11:18:59 <gilbertbsd> onetom is it better than the forth you are using?
11:19:13 <onetom> sure
11:19:24 <onetom> tho it runs standalone
11:19:35 <onetom> only, but it will change soon
11:22:01 <gilbertbsd> how do you use c4th in your work?
11:28:22 <Speuler> onetomÖ: how about  [1]word [2]wrd1 [2]wrd [24]dec [25]hex2;
11:33:33 <Speuler> gilbertbsd: isn't the notion of extropy incompatible with the observation that expansion if universe is speeding up ?
11:33:43 <Speuler> ahem
11:33:45 <Speuler> entropy ...
11:34:31 <gilbertbsd> is it?
11:34:41 <Speuler> i would think so
11:35:05 <gilbertbsd> I wonder why the universe is expanding.
11:35:10 <gilbertbsd> is it self aware?
11:35:17 <Speuler> possible
11:35:39 <Speuler> just a very slow thinker
11:35:48 <gilbertbsd> or very slow observers :D
11:36:58 <gilbertbsd> on the other universes...
11:37:01 <Speuler> t'is a complex system of interaction
11:37:28 <Speuler> interaction through gravity, for example
11:37:48 <Speuler> also means for information transport
11:38:11 <gilbertbsd> I should get the book: computational beauty of nature.
11:38:14 <Speuler> why shouldn't it be selfaware ...
11:38:21 <gilbertbsd> why should it?
11:38:23 <gilbertbsd> need it?
11:38:35 <gilbertbsd> software isn't self aware but can be made to self-modify.
11:38:42 <Speuler> no need. do humans need to ?
11:39:57 <Speuler> if universe is, it might be a survival trait
11:40:16 <gilbertbsd> Speuler I doubt humans need to.
11:40:25 <Speuler> but they still are
11:40:40 <Speuler> so why should there be a need for universe ?
11:40:45 <gilbertbsd> Based on the little I know about the Kalahari Bushman, I believe a lot of what we do is completely and utterly redundant.
11:40:49 <gilbertbsd> an elaborate game.
11:41:41 <gilbertbsd> if it matters to the Bushman, then it really matters :D
11:41:54 <Speuler> maybe humans wouldn't exist nowadays w/o self awareness
11:42:07 <gilbertbsd> why not?
11:42:50 <gilbertbsd> we can exist regardless.
11:43:04 <Speuler> cause it's remaining survival mechanisms would not have been sufficient
11:43:32 <Speuler> fear of death
11:43:44 <gilbertbsd> no need to fear death.
11:44:01 <Speuler> may be a side effect
11:44:22 <gilbertbsd> the lack of fear of death is a side effect?
11:44:40 <Speuler> fear of death may be side effect of self awareness
11:45:02 <gilbertbsd> fear of death is rather the side of effect of realizing there is no heaven :)
11:45:09 <gilbertbsd> it all ends here.
11:45:59 <Speuler> maybe, no need. but, no need to live, either
11:46:03 <gilbertbsd> true.
11:46:24 <gilbertbsd> I am going with what alan watts says: we are tubes which push things one end and let it out another end.
11:46:32 <Speuler> at least none we can discern
11:47:14 * Speuler is not a believer into higher goals
11:47:38 <gilbertbsd> do you think we die and its over?
11:47:54 <Speuler> difficult. 
11:48:15 <Speuler> the stats would suggest it's not over
11:48:24 <gilbertbsd> whats so hard about it? seal a person in a thick glass box with no oxygen and watch what happens.
11:48:32 <Speuler> your matter will be reused
11:48:40 <gilbertbsd> or make that a stray wildebeest.
11:49:09 <Speuler> without experience passing of time, it doesn't matter how long something takes
11:49:19 <gilbertbsd> how will the matter be reused?
11:49:46 <Speuler> that is, how long it takes until you find yourself in a configuration which could be called "alive" again
11:50:17 <gilbertbsd> the only way is to fuse with another person who has eggs.
11:50:45 <Speuler> get absorbed, added to another structure
11:50:51 <gilbertbsd> the 'thing' is a highly compressed form of you and the egg is a link to the tar xfsz command :)
11:51:56 <gilbertbsd> the notion of some life after death, very primitive and dating way back past the early pharaohs makes us put people into wooden boxes and then into concrete boxes.
11:52:20 <Speuler> onl prolongs the process of being reused
11:52:29 <gilbertbsd> unnecessarily.
11:52:31 <Speuler> ...until being reused
11:52:41 <gilbertbsd> but there is no death then.
11:53:09 <Speuler> there's "cease of life"
11:53:45 <Speuler> the process of ending function of the current configuration
11:53:49 <gilbertbsd> a person is dead if when given shared resources like food and water, one of the persons does not eat any of it for longer than 3 months :)
11:54:15 <gilbertbsd> a person is dead if he/she is no longer pushing things through one end of the tube and letting it out the other.
11:54:53 <Speuler> intravenous feeding ?
11:54:55 <gilbertbsd> but dead in only relative terms.
11:55:04 <gilbertbsd> it still has to come out.
11:55:12 <gilbertbsd> and it involves tubes ;)
11:56:14 <Speuler> brain death ?
11:56:31 <gilbertbsd> it is still being fed no?
11:56:44 <gilbertbsd> you push stuff through a tube and it comes out the other end.
11:56:51 <Speuler> but alive too ?
11:57:12 <gilbertbsd> it isn't alive if it is not feeding and defeeding :)
11:57:40 <Speuler> my car is alive ?
11:57:49 <gilbertbsd> can it feed itself?
11:58:14 <gilbertbsd> your car _is_ alive.
11:58:21 <Speuler> just as little as a brain dead person, or coma patient, can
11:58:45 <gilbertbsd> your car then is equivalent to a brain dead person or coma patient.
11:58:54 <gilbertbsd> there has to be a term for those...
11:59:02 <gilbertbsd> Feedablelifeforms.
11:59:09 <gilbertbsd> Feedableforms
11:59:24 <Speuler> self feeder vs autofeeders
11:59:27 <gilbertbsd> your bicycle is not alive though.
11:59:32 <Speuler> extrofeeder
11:59:35 <gilbertbsd> exactment. 
12:00:26 <gilbertbsd> its gotta be an autofeeder if it can find 'food' and feed itself.
12:00:30 <Speuler> talking 'bout food ...
12:00:48 <gilbertbsd> nooo!
12:00:54 <Speuler> i think i'll go out, get me a life
12:01:04 <gilbertbsd> be nice to your car.
12:01:05 <gilbertbsd> its alive.
12:01:12 <Speuler> 'll walk
12:01:18 <gilbertbsd> even better.
12:01:19 <Speuler> just 300 m
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15:45:08 <Soap`> wb
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15:49:15 <Kitanin> Over here, arke.  :-)
15:49:37 <arke> Kitanin: hello
15:49:58 <arke> please forgive me, masters of forthism! i have failed you! the subject which i was to manipulate to our godly religion of forth and abolishment of C has abandoned me and turned to C :'(
15:51:17 <Kitanin> Heh.  I accidentally converted someone to Ada, so I'm in no position to punish you.  :-D
15:51:34 <arke> Kitanin: *gasp*
15:51:51 <arke> Kitanin: an Ada programmer is not as bad as a C progeammer
15:52:27 <Kitanin> True dat.
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15:54:43 <I440r> fscking damned network connector
15:54:45 <I440r> i need a job
15:54:51 <I440r> arke dont give up on forth
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15:56:57 * Speuler burps noisily
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17:45:51 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again")
18:28:29 --- nick: skylan_ -> skylan
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22:21:57 <onetom> 1]word 2]wrd1 2]wrd 4]dec 2] 5]hex 2];
22:22:51 <onetom> 1_word 2_wrd1 2_wrd 4_dec 2_ 5_hex 2_;
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.02.12