00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.02.11 00:01:27 --- quit: Herkamire ("sleep at last") 00:14:52 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 00:15:15 Hi serg 00:15:42 hi 00:16:25 * Serg_Penguin is burning flashroms 2 run CuMine 1100 on Slot1 m/boardz via soldered-up 370 adaptor 00:17:43 what is u'r nowdays school topic about computers ? 00:19:13 "School topic about computer"? 00:19:18 What do you mean? 00:19:57 what do u learn in schol about computers ? 00:20:21 Nothing. 00:39:27 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 01:19:09 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 03:10:48 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 03:46:24 hi 03:47:00 hi 03:55:53 ah, sergeant penguin 03:56:20 is your nick from a userfriendly cartoon ? 03:56:32 not sergeant 03:56:39 Serge, just my real name 03:56:42 the one with the "we can customize our colonels" ? 03:56:46 ok 03:57:40 what're you working on ? 04:00:52 crap cheap refurbished slot1 m/boards 04:00:59 reflashing BIOS 04:01:16 stand-alone forth ? 04:01:27 and my workmate shorts some pins in PGA370 adaptor 04:01:37 no, no, no 04:01:50 i'm not so bright to write BIOS forth 04:01:59 despite i was thinking on it... 04:02:09 don't doubt yourself 04:02:57 good words )) 04:03:31 but then i tryed 2 write self-boot pmode hello-wordie, i discovered i know ASM too damn poor 04:04:17 getting cpu to pmode first is not exactly trivial 04:05:11 i have code to setup cpu, hostbridge, dram in pmode, written in asm 04:05:30 took me a while to figure it out 04:05:33 we all have it - linux kernel 04:06:04 i have the wery 1st released one 04:06:17 oh. i mean, self made. 04:06:54 and, linux starts after bios has setup board hardware 04:08:07 the code i refer to runs stand-alone, no bios. goes to pmode, then initializes board hardware 04:09:07 a-a-ah ! 04:09:15 u work on open-firmware ? 04:09:39 sort'd. my input has been minimal, lately 04:10:29 oh. that code is not related to openbios/openfirmware 04:10:43 AFAIK, bios has a 'boot-block' what sets up m/board and can do recovery reflash 04:10:43 i just intend to contribute the knowledge gained with this 04:11:02 probably 04:11:21 and one can change everything BUT bootblock, at least by AWDFLASH 04:22:33 IIRC init code is board specific 04:22:57 otherwise, every BIOS will fit to any board, at least 4 same CPU 04:23:10 but it's not so, i tryed 04:23:36 Chaintech 6BTM0 != 6BTM 04:24:06 it does not start w/ foreign BIOS 04:25:41 --- join: semtex (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4128.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 04:26:05 sorry, got disconnected. was typing into empty sapce 04:26:09 flash chips usually allow you to set a page or several to non-erasable, by that protecting the contents 04:26:09 there's a stand-alone version of eforth 04:26:09 used to flash into video rom of an old video card 04:26:09 so you could stick the bootable forth into the machine by inserting the video card 04:26:31 * semtex alias Speuler 04:29:13 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:29:26 --- nick: semtex -> Speuler 04:29:42 ha-ha, never heard of bootable video card 04:29:56 damn, good ! 04:30:36 bios extension on video card hooks up interrupt by being executed during boot 04:30:53 so, rather than hooking up interrupt, the interpreter is started 04:32:19 When does the BIOS call the video card? Before POST? 04:32:27 after 04:32:33 boh 04:32:48 yo ! can u send BIN ? 04:32:59 we got some old ISA trident :))) 04:33:12 i haven't. nut would be available on the net 04:33:18 but ... 04:36:27 afaik, bios chip has ome empty space in it, and something can be tossed out :) 04:36:42 Heh. 04:36:54 so one can place Forth w/o writing board-specific setup code 04:37:04 Serg_Penguin: that's the idea 04:37:14 by replacing or adding, not writing from scartch 04:38:07 as long forth uses bios- or hardware i/o 04:38:19 no os available, after all 04:38:43 machine would also be in real mode 04:42:22 --- join: arke (~arke@gen3-camarillo8-206.vnnyca.adelphia.net) joined #forth 05:08:26 later 05:08:36 --- quit: Speuler ("Client Exiting") 05:34:52 --- quit: arke (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 05:35:29 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:39:06 --- join: arke (~arke@gen3-camarillo8-206.vnnyca.adelphia.net) joined #forth 05:39:25 --- join: skylan (sjh@Riverview22.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 05:53:36 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:31:22 --- quit: arke (""bbl, school"") 06:35:42 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 06:36:06 Hey serg 06:37:27 hi 06:39:41 what free forth has metacompiler ? 06:55:28 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 06:59:49 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 07:17:59 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 07:37:13 hey, does one know any free forth w/ metacompiler ? 07:37:26 intel linux/dos/windows 07:38:33 --- join: tathi (~josh@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 07:39:31 hi 07:42:14 hi Serg 07:43:11 --- join: Speuler (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4248.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 07:43:16 --- join: semtex (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4248.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 07:46:02 --- part: semtex left #forth 07:46:08 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 08:23:41 --- join: jdavidboyd (~jdavidboy@tamqfl1-ar3-4-64-050-220.tamqfl1.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 08:30:33 --- part: jdavidboyd left #forth 08:38:30 --- join: I440r (~mark4@ip209-183-83-73.ts.indy.net) joined #forth 08:39:04 Hi 08:39:59 hi 09:36:15 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 09:50:10 --- quit: I440r (Excess Flood) 09:50:27 --- join: I440r (~mark4@ip209-183-83-73.ts.indy.net) joined #forth 09:54:35 --- join: tathi (~josh@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 10:06:12 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote closed the connection) 10:08:46 --- join: proteusguy (~username@216.27.161.121) joined #forth 10:10:55 --- join: rafe (~rafe@www.scinq.org) joined #forth 10:15:38 hi all quick question then it's back to coding... is there a better way to convert from forth stings to c-strings? 10:15:47 create host ," sql." \ the . will be converted to a null 10:15:51 host count + 1- 0 swap c! 10:15:57 ?? 10:16:56 --- join: gilbertbsd (~knoppix@67.97.122.120) joined #forth 10:17:07 seems roundabout but then again it may be the forth way 10:17:20 everybody shhhh. its a full house. 10:20:17 grr...I hate mozilla... 10:20:29 why? 10:20:32 its got tabs! 10:20:36 t 10:20:36 heh 10:20:43 yes, I know 10:20:54 it's just so slooow. 10:20:55 what else do you want from a browser? 10:21:04 oh. then get opera. its got tabs :D 10:21:19 I want it to be fast enough that I don't hit a key command twice because I think it didn't work the first time 10:21:37 yeah, I used opera for a while. Then for some reason it stopped displaying tables correctly :( 10:22:19 it was prolly the fault of the wwww authors. 10:23:40 rafe only SAFE way to convert a forth counted string to a c style ascii z string is to copy the string into a bugffer that was previously erased 10:25:04 I440r ok thanks... I was looking for a short cut 10:25:43 now I know better 10:27:37 anyway this MySQL interface is inching along 10:28:12 --- nick: rafe -> _rafe 10:28:23 rafe, what forth are you using for this? 10:28:36 <_rafe> gforth 10:28:55 well if you make sure the string is compiled as both counted AND ascii z 10:29:06 --- nick: _rafe -> rafe 10:29:20 i am makeing sure there's enuf room 10:29:26 for the null 10:29:50 & the strings (these at least ) are write once 10:32:09 tathi: i'm neither gungho nor against gforth at this point it's just it was the only one where i found an example of how to use c-libs for forth newbie interfacing 10:33:46 anyway back to coding. thanks again I440r (aka Mark 4th) 10:33:55 --- nick: rafe -> _rafe 10:34:05 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 10:34:25 :) 10:34:26 lol 10:35:06 * Kitanin wishes people would stop laughing when he walks into the room. :-( 10:38:13 Awww. 10:38:16 * ianni group hug. 10:38:17 : 10:38:18 :P 11:07:02 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:23:01 have any of you guys used terse? 11:45:09 whats that 11:45:18 www.terse.com 11:45:29 its proprietary terse assm or something. 12:00:51 what about osimplay ? 12:01:10 the bash asm ... forth is mentioned several times in the docs. 12:05:47 Well, the guy who developed terse certainly seems to like his logo. 12:12:59 the tersest language yet is J 12:13:07 why do they bother? 12:16:46 They're pining after APL. That _must_ be it. 12:19:14 but there is no need to pine. 12:19:40 apl has inspired apl, apl2, nial, kx, a+, j, and some of mathematica. 12:19:43 so whats the big deal? 12:19:51 and also the goo. 12:21:15 I do love their definition of "Effortless calculations." What do you think these tree lines do: 12:21:15 primerace=. [: +/\ _2: + 4: | p: 12:21:16 dat=. (;primerace) i.812000 12:21:16 plot 808000 }.each dat 12:21:37 three* 12:21:44 heheh. 12:22:01 I prefer nials approach to unreadable line noise. 12:22:07 it uses 'is' instead of =. 12:24:05 but what do you think of terse's syntax. 12:24:10 do you think its 1-1? 12:26:42 gilbertbsd: j uses asciis (words) where apl uses symbols. makes it less terse than apl ? 12:27:09 Speuler I don't think so. 12:27:12 'd evening all btw 12:27:37 i still don't understand why it is that when graphical terminals were hard to come by, APL insisted on graphical terminals. 12:27:45 well, function "rho" in j is greek letter rho, for example 12:27:50 now that they are standard ... they insist on ascii. 12:28:07 I think APL is just a difficult woman 12:28:30 and apl allows you to merge symbols together. 12:28:54 like "vertical bar" alt-backspace "rectangular box" 12:29:20 did you program much in it? 12:29:27 gives you "§rectangular box" with a "vertical bar"§ through it 12:29:41 was my first language 12:29:47 are you _kidding_ ? 12:29:50 learned it before basic :) 12:30:02 hehehe. 12:30:04 seriously 12:30:04 Okay. Speuler rocks. 12:30:24 Heh. I'm not sure if that's something to be proud of... :) 12:30:30 I think it is! 12:30:37 t'was fun to toy around with apl 12:30:51 I've got an old Sharp APL manual, but I've never gotten to use the language... 12:31:09 i learned it on a machine with real apl keyboard 12:31:10 I tried learning it ... I have Rosen's APL book but I got stuck somewhere. 12:31:31 I d/led a copy of APL from sharp for linux 12:31:51 oh yes, the ibm 360 emulator, with apl as application 12:31:59 Bluh? 12:32:08 * Kitanin goes searching through Sharp 12:32:18 * Kitanin 's website 12:32:20 kitanin its no longer called sharp. 12:32:25 sharp apl was original ibm apl, running under an emulated os on the pc 12:33:07 that apl on an ibm5100 was what i started programming with 12:33:20 Correct. It's not Soliton. Sounds like a subatomic particle, if you ask me... 12:33:33 (ibm5100 is one of ibm's apl machines) 12:34:00 now* 12:34:14 * Kitanin wonders why he's lost the ability to type... 12:34:50 kitanin according to the author of APL, you are typing too much :D 12:35:01 they invented j and called it j because its easy to type 12:35:10 :D 12:35:15 you could type less in apl if you had more keys on the keyboard 12:35:31 why can't computer keyboards be like piano keyboards? 12:36:03 Pianists have no problem with the spread approach and I don't hear that much about carpal tunnel amongst pianists. 12:36:37 (forth was my 4th language btw) 12:36:45 the third was what? 12:36:45 very adequate indeed 12:36:49 asm 12:36:51 asm 360 12:36:53 touche! 12:37:02 maybe not the 360. 12:37:14 they tried to teach me asm360 12:37:24 but i skipped the lessons, learning apl instead 12:37:44 were you a math major or some such? 12:37:57 APL was not meant initially to be a computer language . 12:38:00 did my professional education at ibm 12:38:31 I wonder how useful the language is now that spreadsheets exist . 12:38:43 If you were interested in APL at the time, you may want to check out haskell now. It also is an exteremly powerful mostly interactive language with a boatload of operators. 12:38:56 Haaaskell? 12:39:04 APL and Haskell have overhead. 12:39:07 Er, many implementations are interactive. 12:39:22 with apl some knowledge of matrixes is in order. 12:39:25 Well obviously. Forth has overhead as well. 12:39:29 there's lots to learn 12:39:36 yes. with forth you _gotta_ know asm 12:39:43 considering python, ocaml, 12:39:45 no matter what you guys say, I am not convinced. 12:39:59 by overhead I mean knowledge overhead. 12:40:23 need to polish my *duck* c a bit too 12:40:23 Yeah, well with APL the basic unit type is an array I believe. With haskell it's a list. 12:40:35 Heh. 12:40:37 scalar 12:40:38 yes its an array in apl. 12:40:46 a vector 12:41:00 Well ya, arrays made up of many scalars. 12:41:20 but a scalar is a 0 dimensional array I think. 12:41:32 or was that 1? 12:41:35 basically another word for array 12:41:51 but apl calls it "scalar" 12:41:57 Array/A programming language. 12:42:44 attempting to learn apl lead me to yorick and python 12:42:52 I was crazier about python than about yorick. 12:43:10 Also, doesn't APL have an operator that will generate all the integers from 1 to n? 12:43:15 yep. 12:43:17 yes 12:43:21 Consider haskell, which has [1..n] 12:43:24 iota 12:43:28 fractal in python it is range(n) 12:43:29 ;) 12:43:33 And you can also do [1,1.5..n] 12:43:43 or range(1,1.5,n) 12:43:46 "vertical snaky line" 12:43:48 Or [1,.9..n] 12:44:01 whats up with the dots? 12:44:02 (To decrease by .1 every time) 12:44:05 thats redundant. 12:44:15 No it isn't. 12:44:19 sure it is. 12:44:23 .. = , 12:44:30 reduction in keystrokes. 12:44:33 It isn't though. 12:44:43 * Herkamire starts reading the backlog 12:44:46 This is also valid: [1,n] 12:44:48 5 2 vertical-snaky-line 10 outputs a 2d array with elements 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 12:44:56 Which is *very* different from [1..n] 12:45:02 it is even easier to create multidimensional arrays in apl/j 12:45:03 gilbertbsd: computer keyboards usually have more keys than piano 12:45:03 (forgot the rho) 12:45:17 5 2 rho vertical-snaky-line 10 12:45:19 herk but how many are used? the numbers and the alphabets mostly 12:45:22 and then a few other things. 12:45:24 gilbertbsd: [1..n] is shorter than range(1,n) 12:45:35 def range are 12:45:38 r(1,n) 12:45:38 :) 12:45:42 i 10 12:45:50 thats j 12:45:52 ( i for iota ) 12:45:59 --- part: rpc left #forth 12:46:00 Well you could define that in haskell like so: r i j = [i..j] 12:46:00 j uses similar syntax. 12:46:13 Fractal you might like kx even though its proprietary. 12:46:26 it uses lists instead of arrays. 12:46:34 and was heavily inspired by apl and lisp. 12:47:01 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-Sherbrooke-ppp79318.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 12:47:06 Well I'm not particularly a lisp or APL fan. The reason I like haskell more has to do with it's purely functional nature. 12:47:20 Debugging is a dream in haskell. 12:47:24 gilbertbsd: you don't use all the keys on the piano much either. 12:47:30 my string stack stuff is pretty finished now btw 12:47:33 heheh. 12:47:43 Fractal, apl/j is functional. 12:47:57 they have an extra name for it ... but I forget. 12:48:00 terse? no. 12:48:07 I forget the name they were calling it. 12:48:29 kx says its functional too. 12:48:42 I doubt it's purely functional. However, even mostly functional languages can be very useful. I may check it out. 12:48:59 SQL, for instance, is mostly functional. 12:49:04 O'caml is mostly functional. 12:49:33 fractal they SWEAR at its been extra-o functional. 12:49:57 ie j 12:50:21 Oh well who am I to doubt some guy I've never heard of's word? 12:50:41 Iverson? 12:50:52 He too inspired CM :D 12:52:00 infact, they entered the ICFP contest a while back and won a judges prize 12:52:06 Ya, he was actually an original APL guy... 12:52:13 I guess. 12:52:31 Iverson invented APL as a method of communication between mathematicians unambigously 12:52:52 Don't forget that a C program won second place last contest. 12:53:58 yah. 12:54:05 --- join: crtx (~crtx@p508AEF31.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 12:54:06 CILK won the year apl entered. 12:54:22 but the battle has mostly been between the ML's. 12:54:26 --- part: crtx left #forth 12:54:29 have you ever run Miranda or Amanda? 12:54:56 No. 12:55:06 they say its as pure as pure can be. 12:55:21 'they' say. I have never actually used it though. 12:55:38 its hard to come by. you gots ta pays for its to uses. 12:55:47 Well I don't doubt it. It's not hard to design a purely functional language. Making a *useful* purely functional language is the difficult part. 12:56:29 I like haskell because it combines the best of both worlds, IMO. 12:56:44 does it require a lot of handwaving to use? 12:56:52 Haskell? Not at all. 12:56:56 really? 12:57:01 whats a hello world like? 12:57:08 main = putStr "Hello world!" 12:57:16 whats that main thing? 12:58:05 That's the central monad, if you will. 12:58:15 and without it? 12:58:15 Generally in a compilation environment that will be evaluated. 12:58:30 Well if you don't have it you don't have a program. You have a module. :) 12:58:42 For instance, 12:58:47 so some handwaving is required. 12:58:48 blah = putStr "Hello world!" 12:58:52 main = blah 12:59:05 What do you mean? 12:59:16 in python its simply print "Hello World" . 12:59:17 * tathi waves his hands in gilbertbsd's face :) 12:59:19 straight forward. 12:59:25 Interactively you could evaluate just putStr "hello world" 12:59:37 That's because of python's imperative nature. 12:59:43 if you want it in a function, you simply put it in one like so: def hello(): print "hello world" 12:59:49 There is no sense of "program flow" in a functional language. 13:00:46 You write your program as a series of relationships between things: factorial x = product [1..x] 13:00:49 in apl it is "hello world" 13:00:52 (That's the classic example) 13:01:14 if it's not assigned to a var, it goes to std output 13:01:17 hehe. fractal in j it is */ i. x 13:01:36 ... i _think_ 13:01:37 a <- "hello world 13:01:38 a 13:01:49 See in haskell there is no "assignment" operator. 13:02:04 why is that? 13:02:05 Because that would destroy the functional nature. 13:02:12 are they afraid of assigning? 13:02:29 No, but if you have external variables you create "side effects". 13:02:49 whats the advantage? 13:03:32 Well the advantages are huge. I particularly like the debugging aspect. You can test and debug any part of your program interactively, no setup required at all. 13:03:32 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:03:46 I don't get it. 13:03:52 is it a big language? 13:04:19 ie do you have to know a large vocabulary to get going? 13:04:20 Yes, it's quite a rich, advanced language. As such, most current implementations are large. 13:04:28 I say we bean them on the head with an eggplant 13:04:41 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 13:04:46 Well you don't have to, but you'll want to. Many tasks are trivial once you know the whole scope of operators. Much like APL. 13:05:02 yah apl is a pain in the pattuty also. 13:05:46 an attractive aspect of python is that for most things, translating from flowcharts to pythonese is a snap. 13:06:03 It's kind of like forth also. There are hundreds of words that you don't really have to know, but it sure as hell helps. 13:06:14 all you have to know is the for/while syntax; the if{elif}else syntax; and how to create a function. 13:06:48 much less handwaving :D 13:06:58 flowcharts ? those which allow you quite unstructured designs ? 13:06:58 or raindancing for that matter. 13:07:04 OK, I don't understand what "henadwaving" is. 13:07:12 ah but structure is a fiction invented by Djikstra 13:07:22 Yes, I'd definitley *not* want to design programs by flowcharts. 13:07:33 fractal a huge vocabulary to get a tiny thing done. 13:07:49 it was my believe that you need some kind of "goto" to be able to reflect flowcharts accurately in your program 13:08:01 surely you _Do_ want to design programs by flowchart. what other very vividly visual method do you have? 13:08:13 speuler not necessarily. 13:08:28 Programs are definitley not visual though. It's a mistake to try to design them as such, IMO. 13:08:33 ---<>---- does not require a goto :D 13:08:36 how does one implement a non-structured flow-chart design in python ? 13:08:51 fractal but why is it so darned easy to translate flowcharty stuff to python? 13:08:59 speuler I haven't tried. 13:09:18 Probably solid design and a rich set of operators. 13:09:30 * Herkamire beans gilbertbsd on the head with an unripe eggplant 13:09:50 |---#true-------<>----#false----| 13:10:10 fractal, I don't see the advantage of all that. 13:10:30 there is a godawful amount of typing involved in writing most programs today. 13:10:48 gilbertbsd: that means you're doing it wrong 13:10:54 No it doesn't. 13:11:07 OK, let me get this straight. You want to type as little as possible, but also have a minimal operator/function set to memorize? 13:11:09 you should spend more time thinking and planning and refactoring 13:11:14 * gilbertbsd points to prograph the failed. 13:11:24 actually, i want a foldable keyboard for my handheld, because of the typing 13:12:01 Speuler: have you seen the VIK? (virtually indestructable keyboard) 13:12:17 Confucius say: A picture is as good as a 1000 words. 13:12:22 is it the rubber-thing, which you can roll up ? 13:12:28 Confucius never programmed. 13:12:40 heck, Confucius say: "A picture is better than a 1000 words" 13:12:49 Speuler: yes. I read a site about it. 13:12:52 programming is no different from the act of writing prose or poetry. 13:12:55 seen it 13:12:58 tried it 13:12:59 the language is different, but thats about it. 13:13:13 Well, actually, the original quote was "ten thousand words". 13:13:14 gilbertbsd : Nonesense. Pictures and prose/poetry are not concise mathematical definitions. 13:13:17 Speuler: I have been very pleased with my Targus Stowaway keyboard. 13:13:25 Concise mathematical definitions of what? 13:13:32 Of the concept you're trying to express. 13:13:41 Speuler: how was it? 13:13:45 i'll go for the harmonica-foldable compaq one 13:13:54 Conciseness is determined by the language used. 13:13:56 the rubber thing didn't convince me 13:14:13 Fractal, you know what n! means for the most part. 13:14:15 key make/break not very accurate 13:14:35 it can be expressed algorithmically as well. 13:14:47 but I'd rather just do n! than type a whole damned function each time. 13:14:48 gilbertbsd : Yes, of course. So how could you express that as a picture? 13:14:56 n! is _the_ picture 13:15:04 imagine a rubber stamp with n! 13:15:06 :) 13:15:20 gilbertbsd: spoken language is not even vaguely resemblant to good programming 13:15:30 Herkamire yes it is. 13:15:49 Alright, that's a trivial example. Most objectives aren't inherently known by people and machines and hence have to be programmed. 13:15:50 Have you read vague philosophers like ummm Russel & Whitehead? 13:15:52 good programming is factoring properly 13:16:09 Fractal no program is written blindly. 13:16:12 unless for fun. 13:16:19 when you set out, you know what you want to see ... 13:16:39 you know what output you are expecting over a given range. 13:16:40 A better example would be, say... The product of all even numbers from 2 to n 13:17:13