00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.02.09
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01:31:37 <mur> terve
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03:15:43 <mur> hello deluxe
03:17:19 <deluxe> mur!
03:17:25 <deluxe> howdy
03:18:33 <mur> i try to get netpbm working
03:18:46 <mur> i dont understand why there are pnm, ppm and pbm differently
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08:18:46 <Speuler> 'morning
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08:29:28 <mur> evening Speuler
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09:10:25 <Speuler> does anyone in the u.s. follow the news, concerning rumsfield's visit in europe ? how are the discrepances beetween u.s. and german positions portrayed there ?
09:14:06 <Speuler> rumsfeld didn't make himself many friends here, and it is talk about permanently damaged relationship between german foreign minister and rumsfeld. did any of that make it into u.s. news ?
09:14:32 <Robert> You betray us all. You're with Saddam against the free world.
09:14:45 <Robert> etc.
09:14:51 <Speuler> we got powerful friends in libya and cuba
09:15:26 <Robert> Yep, the other two of the "three-four countries" supporting terrorism.
09:16:34 <Speuler> cuba, libya, north vietnam, germany
09:16:46 <Speuler> ahem
09:16:56 <Speuler> corea
09:17:17 <Robert> North Vietnam, Speuler, you're waaaay behind your time ;)
09:18:17 <Robert> Anyway.. That's one of the most stupid things I've ever heard. He makes it sound like Germany is some sort of terrorist-supporting country.
09:18:55 <Speuler> that's why i wonder how much of that makes it into u.s. news
09:19:34 <Speuler> that is, whether u.s. people have any notion of what's going on 
09:22:24 <Robert> They have... most of them are fully aware of the fact that their country and their freedom is being threatened by the arab states.
09:22:57 <Speuler> two anti-war demos on two consecutive days here in munich. after demo one, rumsfeld scourged germany verbally. next day's demonstration saw a tenfold increase of demonstrants here in munich
09:23:30 <Robert> Hehe.
09:24:09 <Speuler> one can say, he manages to activate the masses :)
09:25:57 <Robert> If the majority of the Americans can't even vote away Bush, you little Germans certainly are no threat.
09:26:16 <Speuler> i wonder whether he represents u.s opinion, or just mouthes his own
09:27:15 <Speuler> but he seens to have a twisted perception of reality, whatever "reality" is
09:28:09 <Robert> Today's government rarley represent the "people's" opinion.
09:28:12 <Robert> Just look at Sweden.
09:28:13 <Speuler> some of his quotes indicated some ignorance, or at least that his statements are based on false information
09:28:41 <Robert> Most of the Swedes are against an attack on Iraq, but the government won't say anything if the UN votes yes.
09:28:56 <Robert> Which one?
09:29:24 <Speuler> for example, that there are only 3 or 4 countries in the world which do not support the u.s course
09:29:49 <Robert> Ah, yes.
09:30:03 <Robert> More like, one country actually supporting it ;)
09:30:40 <Robert> Although I'm not sure if there actually are any other countries than the UK.
09:31:15 <Speuler> quite a limitied field of vision
09:33:00 <Speuler> "behind every bush lurks a terrorist"
09:35:10 <Robert> Hehe. :)
09:35:25 <Speuler> "bomb texas, they've got oil too"
09:37:39 <mur> actually most europeans are against war to iraq at all circumstaces
09:37:45 <mur> there was research about this matter
09:38:47 <Robert> mur: Yes.. but not the government, it seems.
09:39:00 <Robert> Like the Il Duce 2 down in Italy.
09:39:37 <Speuler> telephon polls concerning the course of the (impopular) german cancellor yield 75% agreement, 25% "should change his course"
09:41:56 <Speuler> considering that only about 25-30% of voters would vote for the government party now
09:42:25 <Speuler> and the opposition party does not back his course
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09:43:41 <Speuler> switzerland has offered asylum to saddam hussein
09:45:05 <Robert> :)
09:45:31 <Speuler> nuke'm
09:47:02 <Robert> Switzerland?
09:47:13 <Speuler> seriously
09:47:36 <Speuler> oh. not the nuking. offering asylum i mean
09:47:46 <Robert> ;)
09:50:24 <Speuler> maybe germany should intensify the trade with cuba.
09:50:39 <Robert> Yes, buy some sugar.
09:50:42 <Speuler> tools against rum, sugar and cigars
09:51:18 <Speuler> and medical specialists
09:51:27 <Robert> Cheap german candy <-> sugar maybe would be a good deal.
09:52:03 <Speuler> volkswagens against classic cars :)
09:52:55 <Robert> Che T-shirts against food.
10:01:50 <Speuler> wouldn't it be time to develop a car engine which runs on butter ?
10:07:58 <Robert> Lots of wasted fat, that'd be.
10:08:41 <Speuler> something like synthetically grown muscle tissue
10:09:08 <Speuler> devours sugar, starch, and hamburgers too
10:09:44 <Speuler> and excrets fertilizer
10:17:41 * Speuler watches "fear and loathing in las vegas"
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13:07:18 <ianni> how do i read from stdin (in isfoth)?
13:19:35 <Fractal> accept, more than likely.
13:19:44 <Fractal> Possibly except
13:19:46 <Fractal> I don't really know
13:21:50 <Fractal> expect I mean
13:22:38 <Fractal> Ya, addr 10 expect
13:22:47 <Fractal> Copies at most 10 byes to addr
13:25:35 <ianni> hmm, i wonder how im supposed to run this then
13:26:14 <ianni> aha #! ./isforth - fload
13:27:05 * ianni gets slowly closer and closer
13:27:17 <Fractal> To doing what?
13:27:21 <ianni> man i should probably try to write my own forth so im forced to learn this better
13:27:23 <ianni> doing anything useful
13:27:32 <ianni> hard when theres extermely loud blazing guns from video game behind me
13:27:33 <ianni> hehe
13:27:38 <Fractal> Heh
13:27:53 <Fractal> Seriously though, writing a forth is a learning experience.
13:28:09 <ianni> well i'd understand everything better 
13:28:15 <Fractal> You really ought to try it. At least understand how the inner interpreter works.
13:28:18 <ianni> it's like how you master algebra once you've learned calculus
13:28:31 <ianni> im totally lost at where to start.. im a high level weenie
13:28:31 <Fractal> Heh.
13:29:19 <Fractal> http://www.zetetics.com/bj/papers/
13:29:30 <Fractal> Read "Moving Forth" by Brad Rodriguez
13:29:42 <ianni> sweet, got it reading stdin now
13:29:46 <Fractal> It explains the innermost parts of the forth interpreter rather well.
13:29:52 <ianni> but it doesnt know where stdin stop,s i think that's a OS problem tho
13:30:33 <Fractal> Kind of... Forth wasn't really designed for a unix environment so most things like that are hacks - at best.
13:30:35 <Fractal> Er, BBL.
13:31:02 <ianni> thanks for the tip
13:31:05 <ianni> looks interesting
13:33:10 <ianni> im learning already
13:33:22 <ianni> everything just points to the machine code.. makes sense
13:47:54 <Fractal> Heh.
13:47:54 <Fractal> Back.
13:48:06 <Fractal> Yeah, much of forth is defined in machine code.
13:54:50 <Fractal> Oh, also you can almost completely ignore references to Indirect Threaded Code... It's almost completely obsolete.
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13:59:41 <Fractal> Hey I440r
14:03:27 <I440r> hi :)
14:03:51 <I440r> whussup ?
14:04:09 <Fractal> Not much, not much. Working on my DTC forth for TI83+ calc
14:04:12 <Fractal> You got one?
14:04:25 <I440r> i wish
14:04:44 <Fractal> It's working pretty well now. Base input is hardcoded to base 10 though now. :(
14:05:01 <Fractal> Damn. I need beta testers.
14:05:02 <I440r> aha
14:05:15 <I440r> make it "any base" as a future enhancement :)
14:05:22 <Fractal> Definitley. :)
14:05:37 <Fractal> Output is base any now though.
14:05:46 <Fractal> Oh, hey, what factor do you use for "."?
14:05:55 <Fractal> Cause you know how . prints the num than a space?
14:06:01 <Fractal> *then
14:06:02 <I440r> ?
14:06:15 <I440r> yes
14:06:25 <Fractal> I've got : . pnum bl emit ;
14:06:58 <I440r> i got something similar :)
14:07:15 <Fractal> Heh. Whatever, pnum will be fine. :)
14:07:54 <I440r> pnum being (number) yes ?
14:08:02 <Fractal> (number) ?
14:08:05 <Fractal> Ya, I guess so.
14:09:11 <Fractal> Ya, the 83+ is kinda neat. It's got a z80 in it you know.
14:09:47 <I440r> i never learned z80 :/
14:10:16 <Fractal> Consider yourself lucky. It's kind of a bitch of a processor actually.
14:10:19 <Fractal> :)
14:11:24 <I440r> i learned 6502
14:11:54 <Fractal> Ah yes, 6502... That's what was in the apple IIs right?
14:12:10 <I440r> and the c64
14:12:16 <I440r> and the commodore pet i believe
14:12:19 <Fractal> I never actually had anything by Apple until they put out their macs.
14:12:22 <Fractal> Oh, cool.
14:13:01 <I440r> i never owned anything apple
14:13:02 <Fractal> Actually, some of the new TI calcs have 68000s in em.
14:13:22 <Soap`> Anyone have an idea why a 386 protected-mode ISR would crash on iret? I've restored all the saved registers and stuff.
14:14:10 <I440r> well - did the isr PUSH anythig itself that didnt get popped ?
14:15:19 <Soap`> Nope
14:15:57 <Soap`> See, this is why I'm considering running away and joining the circus.
14:16:10 <I440r> could the registers that were pushed have gotten mashed on?
14:21:26 <Soap`> Here's a better question... after it started screwing up, I tried cutting the routine down to a single iret instruction and the computer still reset. What I'm wondering is: should the just-a-iret ISR actually work, anyway?
14:21:31 <Soap`> Or did I just replace one problem with another?
14:22:31 <I440r> yes
14:22:42 <I440r> thats one way to neuter an interrupt
14:22:46 <I440r> just revector it to an iret
14:26:29 <Speuler> Soap`: for hardware interrupts, you need to signal "end of interrupt" to the interrupt controller too
14:26:55 <Speuler> Soap`: or it won't pass any lower-priority interrupts to the cpu anymore
14:27:16 <Speuler> Soap`: you do that by writing 0x20 to the interrupt controller base port
14:27:17 <I440r> that wouldnt make it crash tho
14:27:25 <Speuler> I440r: depends. 
14:27:40 <Speuler> I440r: it may cause the machine to hang, by that appear to have crashed
14:28:24 <Speuler> hi all btw
14:28:41 <I440r> hi :)
14:29:21 <Soap`> Well, I'm not resetting the interrupt controller... but it's rebooting, not hanging :/
14:31:00 <Soap`> Mmm. Clown. Acrobat. Lion tamer.
14:31:06 <Soap`> All in-tent jobs, no heavy thinking.
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15:50:23 * ianni decides to learn some assembly first
16:31:37 <ianni> If im writing a forth program that will parse a lot of strings, should i set a maximum size by just doing "variable array 1024 1024 *" or something?
16:31:47 <ianni> like i'd feed it a file
16:33:36 <ianni> is that bad practice to initialize such space?
16:33:40 <ianni> i guses i cant think of a better way
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16:44:11 <Klaw> you need to use 1 meg at a time to parse the strings?
16:46:25 <ianni> i dunno, what if i want to feed it 1000000 strings?
16:47:03 <ianni> can i create a variable in a word?
16:47:17 <ianni> even then, i'd need a finite amout of memory space to append the address pointers to
16:47:24 <ianni> which i what I'm thinking anyway
16:48:46 <Klaw> you want it to process 1 million strings simultaneously?
16:48:58 <ianni> well, sort
16:49:06 <ianni> so yeah
16:49:22 <Klaw> well if it's a file, then you're processing it as a stream and not "strings", i'd think
16:49:49 <Klaw> and yeah if you are doing something like a sort, you will need to process the entire file before you can output
16:50:09 <ianni> right
16:50:20 <ianni> ill need to be able to reference any of them in the loop
16:50:53 <Klaw> well as long as you only initialize the amount of space you'll need, i've got no problems with it
16:50:57 <Klaw> :P
16:51:13 <Soap`> Hurrah! The interrupt routine works
16:51:24 <Soap`> Much rejoicing! Tickertape! Dancing in the streets!
18:08:07 <ianni> congrat
18:08:08 <ianni> s
18:14:21 <Speuler> i just put me (another) string stack together. this one allocates space for strings upon push, uses a refcount, and frees mem if a string is not ref'd anymore.
18:14:35 <Speuler> i got these words now:
18:14:49 <Speuler> \ stringstack:
18:14:49 <Speuler> \  push$  ( a n -- )    pushs a string to stringstack
18:14:49 <Speuler> \  pop$   ( -- a n )    pops a string from stringstack, marks it as freeable if last ref
18:14:49 <Speuler> \  dup$   ( -- )        duplicates string on stringstack
18:14:49 <Speuler> \  drop$  ( -- )        drops a string on stringstack, marks as freeable if last ref
18:14:50 <Speuler> \  swap$  ( -- )        swaps top two strings on stringstack
18:14:52 <Speuler> \  over$  ( -- )        pushs a copy of nos string
18:14:54 <Speuler> \  free$  ( -- )        frees memory used by freeable strings
18:14:56 <Speuler> \ string count is cell size, i.e. strings > 255 bytes are ok.
18:15:00 <Speuler> anyone want this ?
18:25:21 <ianni> whoa
18:25:27 <ianni> thats just the kinda stuff i was needing
18:25:39 <ianni> you rule
18:26:38 <Speuler> happy to share
18:27:07 <Speuler> new stuff, not extensively tested, but seems to work ok
18:27:29 <Speuler> t'is not on my server yet. i could email it to you
18:34:23 <ianni> ipojman@jmlafferty.com thanks!
18:37:03 <Speuler> sent
18:38:57 <Speuler> i've included my personal extensions, which are used in the strings routines, at top of file
18:50:50 <Speuler> for what you intend to do, as described above, you might want to implement pick$ 
19:01:14 <ianni> looks erally nice
19:01:31 <ianni> im sure ill ahve some particularly silly questions later
19:03:07 <Speuler> it solves me two problems.
19:03:34 <Speuler> 1. where to put strings if you want to handle several at once (buffer if out of question)
19:03:45 <ianni> yeah
19:03:48 <ianni> thats what ive been trying to do
19:03:57 <ianni> quitejust tonight
19:04:00 <Speuler> 2. how to keep them on stack, but still being able to release mem when they are not used anymore
19:04:02 <ianni> just tonight rather
19:04:10 <ianni> thats beautiful
19:04:57 <ianni> so if you pop it, it's ref count is 0? 
19:04:58 <Speuler> hope it works for you too
19:05:06 <ianni> and you've got to push it back on before  you leave?
19:05:13 <ianni> well im a newbie
19:05:16 <Speuler> if it is ref'd 3times, after popping it is ref's 2 times
19:05:28 <ianni> but i want to make some very quick sorting modules
19:05:28 <Speuler> dup, over etc increment ref count
19:05:45 <Speuler> dup$, over$  i mean
19:05:56 <Speuler> drop$, pop$ decrement ref count
19:05:59 <ianni> right
19:06:08 <ianni> so drop just decrease the count?
19:06:10 <ianni> and nothing more?
19:06:19 <Speuler> when ref count is 0, memory handle is put on flushstack
19:06:43 <Speuler> free$ frees mem handles on flushstack
19:07:16 <Speuler> push$ sets ref count to 0
19:07:35 <Speuler> (means: no additional reference to string)
19:07:45 <ianni> ohhh
19:08:12 <ianni> so what is flushstack pop ?
19:08:23 <ianni> oh n/m need to read the first one first
19:08:37 <Speuler> pops a memory handle from flushstack (a string which is not referenced anymore)
19:08:46 <ianni> got it 
19:09:25 <Speuler> can't free right away, string, after pop$, is still in use (probably)
19:09:52 <Speuler> you want to able to access the string, and don't expect it to be reclaimed already
19:10:20 <Speuler> so freeable strings are just stored on flushstack
19:10:27 <ianni> makes sense
19:10:43 <Speuler> you free$ when you don't use the popped string(s) anymore
19:12:27 <Speuler> i keep popped strings in allocated mem, because i don't know where else to put them
19:12:53 <Speuler> (can't copy to buffer, or 2nd pop$ would overwrite 1st pop$)
19:13:47 <Speuler> and it makes no sense to copy them to allocated mem, after all, that'S where they are already
19:14:32 <Speuler> i'd just complicate handling, and postüpone the decision when to free mem
19:18:34 <Speuler> i consider to put stringstack and flushstack in allocated mem too, because that can be resized if required
19:18:57 <Speuler> and freed
19:20:07 <ianni> how can you resize? make new space and free the old space somehow?
19:20:22 <Speuler> resize
19:20:22 <ianni> wouldnt it clip off everything on the dictionary
19:20:25 <ianni> how
19:20:30 <ianni> how's that work
19:20:48 <Speuler> optional word set:  allocate, free, resize
19:21:09 <Speuler> resize resizes an allocated mem chunk
19:21:26 <Speuler> works both ways, make it bigger, or smaller
19:21:38 <ianni> cool
19:21:51 <ianni> where is that found? what do you use?
19:22:15 <Speuler> t'is described in the ansi standard. i use gforth
19:22:24 <ianni> k
19:23:15 <Speuler> stringstack loads with vanilla gforth. no extra includes required
19:27:25 <Speuler> ah
19:27:37 <Speuler> misunderstanding ...
19:27:44 <Speuler> allocate <> allot
19:28:11 <ianni> whats the difference?
19:28:14 <Speuler> allocate requests a chunk of mem, usually from the os, dynamically. 
19:28:24 <Speuler> you say:
19:28:27 <ianni> hm
19:28:31 <Speuler> 100000 allocate
19:28:41 <ianni> and allot uses ?
19:28:46 <Speuler> and it gives you (if possible) that amount of mem
19:29:00 <ianni> whats the difference
19:29:07 <Speuler> allot reserves mem at the compilation address (the "dictionary")
19:29:25 <Speuler> can't dealloc memory, reserved with allot
19:29:45 <Speuler> prone to create holes
19:29:52 <Speuler> not with allocate
19:30:35 <Speuler> allocate gives mem on what could be considered as "heap" in other languages
19:31:06 <ianni> works fine in bigforth
19:31:19 <Speuler> would think so
19:31:29 <ianni> example yyy xxx xxx xxx
19:31:29 <ianni> freeing 1075433600
19:31:29 <ianni> freeing 1075433632  ok
19:31:35 <ianni> neat
19:31:36 <Speuler> xactly
19:31:45 <Speuler> the "freeing" msg you can comment out
19:31:50 <Speuler> t'is just for control
19:31:50 <ianni> :P
19:31:56 <ianni> aye'
19:32:46 <Speuler> nice about allocate is also that you can reserver LOTS of mem
19:33:19 <Speuler> under linux, mem gets only committed when you actually write to it
19:33:38 <ianni> cool
19:33:49 <Speuler> and you may allocate more mem than you got ram
19:34:00 <Speuler> (given enough swap space)
19:35:24 <Speuler> thus, for dynamic data allocation, it is preferrable to allot
19:35:24 <Speuler> allot is for static allocation
19:35:53 <Speuler> that's where i put the two stacks right now
19:36:12 <Speuler> which i consider to move to dynamically allocated memory too
19:37:25 <Speuler> t'is wasteful to allot the worst-case amount of mem, but very likely not using it
19:37:43 <Speuler> with allocate, you donÄ't care
19:38:22 <Speuler> as allocated memory can be reused after free
19:38:37 <Speuler> and is not used until written to
19:54:30 <Speuler> got some interesting sorting stuff too btw
19:54:47 <Speuler> a sort-anything :)
19:55:11 <Speuler> you define two words:  compare two items, swap two items
19:55:37 <Speuler> the adresses of those words are passed to the sort routine,
19:55:43 <Speuler> together with the number of elements to sort
19:55:55 <ianni> nice
19:56:00 <ianni> thats what im gonna be doing
19:56:02 <Speuler> the sort itself does not know anything about the data
19:56:03 <ianni> sorting
19:56:23 <Speuler> my preferred sort is a shell sort
19:56:41 <Speuler> (was just reading the channel log)
19:56:59 <Speuler> because shell sort is usually written non-recursively
19:57:23 <Speuler> it is often important for me to know the amont of stack space used beforehand
19:57:24 <ianni> recursion is bad?
19:57:30 <ianni> oh
19:57:50 <Speuler> the amount of stack used for recursive sort depends on the sort data
19:58:02 <ianni> I understand
19:58:13 <Speuler> non-recursive = predictable stack usage
19:58:24 <Speuler> and shell sort is quite quick too
19:58:31 <Speuler> sometimes faster than quicksort
19:58:46 <Speuler> mostly, not much slower
20:00:47 <Speuler> best results with shell sort i had with hubbard-sequence gap sizes
20:01:07 <Speuler> which is very easy to generate too
20:33:14 <ianni> never heard of that, hell i dont even know any of the sort algorithms by memory
20:33:19 <ianni> heheh
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