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13:13:08 yea tho my classification scheme (pun) is weak 13:13:15 :l 13:13:38 well, in some ways lisp and forth aren't that different 13:14:28 ok but list is all data & heap & forth is all stack... not a critisim just an observation 13:14:39 s/list/lisp/ 13:15:01 well, yes... but the forth stack.. could be a list~ 13:15:02 !! 13:15:14 seriously, 10 10 +, + 10 10.. 13:15:39 ok but the parameterless less function model in forth seems different 13:16:09 that just means it easier to have n parameter functions ;D 13:16:23 but bleeh. i440r should speak! 13:16:45 you mean that (+ a b c) is easier to do in lisp? 13:17:10 in know a b + c + but... 13:17:52 how about "procedural" 13:18:22 eh ? 13:18:24 * rafe cogitates a bit 13:18:30 clisp won't execute anything more than a single term beyond the second argument! stupid.xzvc 13:18:41 so the multi-arg thing for + is deceptive! 13:20:27 procedural yes (no comp sci degree) so i'm not really sure about the definitions 13:25:44 all forth has is function calls and a stack 13:25:48 and memory access 13:25:59 no frame tho 13:26:13 what do you mean frame? 13:26:24 just globals & micro locals... no stack frame 13:26:42 so locals in the "c" sense are frowned upon 13:26:42 it has two stacks instead of stack frames 13:26:56 very much. there usually aren't locals 13:27:42 topic is drifting but no blem 13:27:48 "globals" are are just a function that returns an address for a spot on the heap 13:28:02 or a constant that returns a value 13:28:17 yeah, a constant is a function that returns a value 13:28:49 there are only functions ("words" in forth terminology) and numeric literals 13:28:49 now... why not a 3rd stack for when stack juggling gets too intense 13:28:59 (in the source file that's all there is) 13:29:03 why not 128 integer stacks?! 13:29:19 differnet purposes no? 13:29:24 and 32 tos <> register areas 13:29:42 if you have intense stack juggling, you need to rewrite, you don't need language features. 13:30:33 wossname: not to multiply w/o reason... Herkamire: i can buy that up to a point 13:30:44 :(~ 13:31:00 where do you need 3 stacks? 13:31:41 i don't but this exploration into forth & (yes lately lisp) has got me thinking about what's the good & bad of ANY language 13:31:47 stack juggling is a (very useful) sign that you are doing something in the wrong order, or that you're using the stack too much. 13:34:24 forth is about as far from the more familiar c that i've gone & tho there's a lot that i hate about c there is a kernel of a good idea in the language 13:34:31 Have any of you ever used the dictionary as a stack in a crunch? 13:35:01 no i haven't done more than rewite c progs into forth yet 13:36:17 dictionary as a stack... how? 13:36:48 Ah. I had a friend learning basic C in college. He kept asking me all these questions, and I'd have to write him example code for him to understand. Well, finally I just wrote that three page C lab project in 4 lines of Forth.. He stopped asking questions. 13:37:04 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 13:37:38 no i'm trying to be critical of forth... just trying to get to what's good about it 13:38:28 rpn is easy but some of the funtions i wrote in c just plain don't translate well 13:38:32 Because the dictionary is usually a linked list you can 'mask' previous definitions. There fore you can define many variables with the same name (pushing) and then later undefine them (poping). 13:39:05 male: ok & the way the heap is grown this is relatively quick I can ess that 13:39:17 s/ess/see/ 13:39:36 Of course, there are more efficient ways to make a stack.. But theyaren't nearly as clever. 13:40:38 but for compile/edit time it can be fast enuf... in the loops never 13:40:45 rafe: shoe us some example 13:40:51 s 13:40:55 of... 13:41:11 01-29 22:42:54 < rafe> rpn is easy but some of the funtions i wrote in c just plain don't translate well 13:41:13 C not translating well. 13:41:47 at work now all i have here is some notes of things that did work 13:42:34 FYI, you shouldn't even look at the C code when you're writing in Forth. Just figure out what it does before hand and try and do that in Forth, from scratch. 13:42:43 You'll end up with much better code that way. 13:43:11 Very very programming languages can be translated literaly. 13:43:23 ahh... yes but i *don't* look at how it's written for forth BUT i do need the basic algos from my previous code 13:43:34 cause i can read my stuff even years later 13:44:08 any of you folks familiar with the edit distance algo? 13:44:34 But chances are that alogorithm has been influenced by the environment it was created in. 13:45:36 Edit distance has been done in Forth many times. I'm sure you can find some PD code. 13:45:50 ok that make sense 13:46:07 ok then i'll google & learn 13:47:16 * rafe hates to goole for forth the "back &" problem 13:47:49 Put -"so forth" -"back and forth" on your query. 13:48:10 yes i do that 13:48:13 :) 13:48:38 There should be a technical search database and a non-technical one. 13:48:39 needed: www.google.com/forth ;) 13:49:04 * rafe see i need to add -"brought forth" 13:49:58 There are also some AND's that help. "Moore" pulls a lot. Forth words help finding source code.. so VARIABLE SWAP ROT.. 13:50:41 male: i didn't think of that d0h! 13:51:00 * rafe smacks himself smartly 13:53:54 If only Chuck had started prefixing the names of his Forth's a little earlier. Finding colorForth cmForth or "Machine Forth" is a breeze. 13:54:12 heheh. that reminds me of the Amstel light beer ad with the brewmeister smacking themselves on the forehead. 14:04:28 no luck. 14:04:32 oh well 14:04:46 what is that algorithm? 14:04:46 even in groups.google.com ? 14:04:53 We could always use another wheel, right? ;-) 14:05:06 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again") 14:05:33 :) hey aren't you suppposed to rewrite everything anyway? 14:05:46 --- quit: Herkamire ("leaving") 14:06:09 Well, that's what Chuck would say.. But some of us have arthritis. 14:06:32 in their fingers 14:07:21 Most especially in their fingers. 14:08:47 anyway i can post code snippets tomorrow (or friday) if i'm still unhappy with the code & you all could can pounce & refactor it into 3 elegant words 14:09:16 Ha. You had better bring doughnuts. 14:09:44 ;-) 14:09:46 ok but sending them thru the wire isn't going to be appetizing 14:10:11 Mmm... Digital doughnut.... 14:11:58 sure you can Rafe: digitaldoughnutdeliveries.com ;) 14:12:01 just fish out that visa 14:12:46 ahh ahh my wife has the credit card... yea that's it 14:13:31 hawww. 14:17:28 Hmm. I guess a crowd of forth people isn't the best group to ask if 127 s too low a an argument limit for procedures in a macro language. 14:18:34 Most here would say that three is enough ;-) 14:33:35 --- quit: gilbertbsd ("Client Exiting") 14:52:38 --- join: TreyB (~trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 14:55:13 --- quit: rafe (""That TV isn't going to watch itself, you know."") 15:08:48 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote closed the connection) 15:21:42 Mmmmmmm... Deferred semicolon goodness... 15:25:27 --- quit: Kitanin (": war postpone peace ; immediate : freedom postpone slavery ; immediate : ignorance postpone strength ; immediate") 15:26:31 Deferred semicolon you say? 15:37:44 --- quit: wossname ("i am an army of none") 15:49:05 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 15:58:52 deferred semicolon is nice 16:02:21 Gee, what interesting conversations we have in here. 16:03:49 t'is quite a controverse issue 16:04:27 forth traditionalists are scared of the concept 16:05:49 Well, when he says deferred semicolon I assume that means a semicolon that exits the definition, and not one that terminates it. Correct? 16:06:15 Rather like the way colorForth uses them. 16:06:29 i'd understand a semicolon of which the runtime behaviour can be changed on-the-fly 16:07:12 so you can use it to teminate anything, not just colon definitions 16:07:46 such as code: nop ; 16:08:05 code: sets semicolon to end-code 16:08:23 What's special about that? 16:08:35 I've always done that sort of thing ;-) 16:08:48 end-code does end-code and sets semicolon to "didn't expect a semicolon here" 16:08:50 I still don't see what's "defferred" about it. 16:08:56 defer ; 16:09:04 ' foo is ; 16:10:05 you know about deferred words, don't you ? 16:11:05 Well, you have to understand that my system uses the word in a very different sense. I do what DEFER does by other means. 16:11:47 i mean defer as it's usually understood in forth. no idea what your systems makes from it 16:13:46 In my system DEFER means to look a word up at run time instead of compile time. 16:15:46 'code branch code< definitions '; : end code ; > definitions 16:15:58 i avoid header referencing at runtime, as i tend to seperate headers from bodies, and have them discardable, so that just body portions remain for execution 16:16:06 code< foo bar baz ; 16:16:16 Would be close to your above example. 16:16:55 even don't have a pointer from bodies to headers 16:17:23 Are you that strapped for memory? 16:17:32 usually not 16:17:33 How to you decompile? 16:17:52 following headers till cfa matches 16:18:54 i don't do that because of mem shortage 16:19:38 rather, i can move around headers freely, even put them into a data base, without the need of updating bodies 16:20:05 on a slow system, i may just sort headers, and use a binary search on them 16:20:33 for find 16:21:21 or i can discard specific headers, and fill the gaps by moving the remaining headers together 16:21:35 have no link field 16:22:46 lenbyte namestring lenbyte namestring ... 16:23:28 that doesn't invide much to reference headers at runtime 16:23:51 search is possible of course 16:23:56 but results may differ 16:24:13 Hmm.. 16:24:41 i see headers as mainly a compile time data structure 16:25:35 Well, that all depends on the sort of things your doing at runtime ;-) 16:25:40 sure 16:26:36 there ARE cases where i do use headers at runtime 16:26:52 for example, a word echoing its own name 16:27:09 such as :) 16:27:19 tag: 16:27:42 or shell: command 16:28:12 but that's more the exception here 16:28:41 i'm quite aware that different people use forth to do different things with it 16:29:05 i think that's good 16:29:25 but voc searching is potentially slow 16:29:42 not good for run time 16:30:24 compile time speed is much less of an issue 16:30:25 There are some virtual dispatch type situations that require it, though. However, if the dictionary is in a hash table the lookup isn't really a big concern. 16:30:38 --- part: lament left #forth 16:30:48 it is less of a concern, agreed 16:30:57 hi lamentus 16:31:37 --- join: Rk (~arke@gen3-camarillo8-206.vnnyca.adelphia.net) joined #forth 16:31:44 hi arke 16:32:15 It seems to be filling up in here. 16:32:24 * Speuler thinks i made it into many /ignore lists 16:33:30 I hate it when that happens ;-) 16:33:32 oh 16:33:50 lament left, didn't join 16:35:22 Speuler: hello 16:36:35 my cgiforth starts to come together 16:38:04 color mixer 16:38:27 yellow 70 % white 90 % mix 16:38:50 So then cgi == computer generated images? 16:39:08 common gateway interface 16:39:11 html generator 16:39:51 That's what I thought at first, but you confused me with the bit about color ;-) 16:40:10 there are colours used in html too 16:40:52 That's true, but I don't know why you would want to build them up that way. 16:41:10 Why not just use the standard HTML color names? 16:41:29 #C73E62 ? 16:41:48 No, you can say color=cyan and whatnot. 16:41:56 my background is #597F59 16:42:23 that's white 70 % green 30 % mix 16:42:40 http://www.w3schools.com/html/html_colornames.asp 16:42:49 which one is clearer ? 16:43:28 I think the names are much more obvious. Especially because your program doesn't have to be concerned about them. Just pass them through to theoutput. 16:43:56 white 70 % green 30 % mix color: brightgreen3 16:45:30 What I'm saying is that is valid HTML. 16:46:17 You don't have to use the hex tuple notation. 16:46:46 i don't. the html generator does. i give colours by percentages, or mix'm 16:46:51 Triple, rather. 16:47:18 brightgreen3 60 % red 20 % mix 16:47:39 i don't know which name gives which color 16:47:53 That's what the table is for ;-) 16:48:06 but i got an idea what colors to mix to get the color i'm looking for 16:48:38 so, you got some nice color, just a little bit off 16:48:44 want to add about 2 % red ... 16:49:07 looking through the table again ? 16:49:10 Yes, but no two web browsers + computer monitor / printer will show that color the same way. 16:49:20 true 16:49:36 So why not just settle for color: Green. 16:49:41 but they get the color specification the same way 16:50:01 i can settle for green 16:50:09 no need to mix there 16:50:34 why would you look into the table if you'd settle for green ? 16:50:55 Sigh. I think we're having a miscommunication. 16:51:17 well, no. 16:51:32 The reason HTML supports named colors is to free you from having to deal with this exact thing. 16:51:36 we post arguments for/against the one/other approach 16:52:35 but i am free of having to deal with hex-notation colors 16:52:42 And it has the added benefit of making your source code more readable. 16:52:55 the browser will understand. 16:53:04 the "source" for me is forth 16:53:18 I know the source is forth. 16:54:02 "color: blue" is much better than "red 0% green 0% blue 100% mix" 16:54:20 i don't need to do that. i can use blue just the same 16:54:24 blue same as blue 100 % 16:54:32 Perhaps that was a bad example. 16:54:47 Right now your cgiforth has to "understand" color, right? 16:55:07 If you just pass it off to HTML then your application becomes less complex. 16:55:15 it "knows" about three colors 16:55:43 but, if i mix them, i make more colours from those 16:56:00 green red + color: yellow 16:56:21 Anyhow, names aside, why do you have to mix them? What's wrong with the #000000 notation? 16:57:05 what's wrong with green 40% mahagony 20 % mix ? 16:57:08 #800000 is 50% red 0% green 0% blue. 16:58:49 what's royalblue 40% mahagony 20 % mix in hex ? 16:59:16 I thought you only had red green and blue. 16:59:27 unless i mix them to new colors 16:59:34 which i can mix with others 16:59:51 That sounds nice, but is it really of any use? 17:00:20 haven't asked anyone about it. but, its use is optional 17:00:28 Hehe ;-) 17:00:42 In any case, what are you going to use cgiforth for? 17:00:46 i like mixing colours 17:00:53 two things: 17:01:08 i need some frontend to some server processes 17:01:44 as i'm no server-side scripting guru at all, i want to pack the server functionality into some forth code 17:02:03 those processes need to produces html output too 17:02:14 that' the cgi stuff for 17:02:33 the other is, 17:02:49 forthfreaks.net is without a proper home page 17:02:57 Hmm. The usual approach is to have the cgi program format the output of the other processes unbeknownst to them. 17:03:06 thought it may just be consistent to use forth generated html there 17:03:37 the process starts when invoked through a link on the web page 17:04:06 You what you're really writing is a cgi library. 17:04:16 basically, yes 17:04:26 as add-on to the rest 17:04:50 need to generate a crontab, for example, which will be downloaded 17:05:13 somebody did that already, but the code is horrible 17:05:40 needs to be replaced as soon as more than, say, 10 users are on the system 17:05:42 Well, it should be interesting to see what you do with it. There aren't nearly enough forth related websites actually using forth. 17:06:10 forthfreaks.net will be the test site. the real use is for a non-forth related site 17:07:31 need to do some parsing of downloaded files, and build that information into some dialog. the results from using that dialog will go into files which are downloaded to the client machine 17:08:03 such as, you select a tv program 17:08:42 and at the given time, tv comes up (projection screen) and switches to the proper channel 17:09:03 there might be other stuff running on that screen at that point. 17:09:07 coming form the same computer btw 17:09:10 from 17:10:18 for that, i need to download program information, put it into some kind of database, allow to choose from, and use the info to build the crontab from 17:11:03 Shouldn't that be an at job? Why use cron? 17:11:30 there are more events than switching tv 17:11:34 periodical ones 17:11:47 I see. 17:12:03 and, by sending a crontab, i can put all scheduling into one single file 17:12:10 simplifies matters 17:12:52 better, the presentation machine asks for new crontab. 17:13:12 after it has received a notice from server that "something" has happend, requiring update 17:13:25 it checks the server, getting a list what to so 17:13:29 do 17:13:42 server may tell "get yourself my new crontab" 17:13:57 it may also say "start showing this presentation right now" 17:14:16 or "update an information line on the screen with new text" 17:14:30 or "download new presentations" 17:14:37 and the like 17:14:58 "take a periodic snapshot, and send it somewhere to" 17:16:40 there are several sites, each one requiring independant set of actions/data 17:17:14 if i was about to do anything about it, i need to use forth 17:17:14 Sounds like quite an odd setup ;-) 17:17:32 public display systems 17:17:58 commercials, presentations for trade fairs and the like 17:18:12 remote controlled 17:20:53 pubs, shops. just anywhere where sort of presentation on display is needed 17:22:24 could even allow customer to mix his own colors :) 17:22:42 without the need to look into some color table, or learn the hex notation 17:23:58 ;-) 17:29:43 This doesn't apply to the conversation, but it seems to me that there should be a NEWWIN environment variable in unix that X, screen, and the like set to the command required to open an application in a new terminal. 17:30:03 rxvt -e app 17:30:19 --- join: I440r (~nospam@ip209-183-83-50.ts.indy.net) joined #forth 17:30:32 Right, but if you're under screen on the console that's not going to do you any good. 17:31:00 Hence the need for the environment. 17:31:04 you can set DISPLAY 17:31:22 Display has a very different meaning. 17:31:36 DISPLAY is the X server's display number. 17:31:56 it allows you to set the display and screen number. often possible on command line too 17:32:33 When I say "screen" I mean GNU screen a text terminal multiplexer. 17:32:44 I don't use X a lot. 17:33:09 there was an X in your statement 17:33:24 ... unix that X, screen, 17:33:48 I know ;-) I'm looking for a way to make simple programs that desire to use multiple windows X agnostic. 17:33:52 but there's "open" too 17:33:58 openvt 17:34:06 Yes, but open is for virtual consoles. 17:34:30 if not vt, and not X, where to put output in that case to ? 17:34:50 screen can open a new "window", that is, split the console. 17:35:00 like splitvt 17:35:15 there's a console window manager, text mode 17:35:16 Yes, but splitvt is just a toy. 17:35:24 forgot its name 17:35:26 Twin? Yes, I use it a lot. 17:35:30 twin, right 17:35:35 This would apply to Twin as well. 17:36:14 NEWWIN=twterm 17:36:18 hi mark 17:36:28 xeyes 17:36:30 :) 17:37:04 hi 17:37:06 i tried twin about half a year ago, and it crashed frequently. is it any better now ? 17:37:16 Much. 17:37:21 will retry 17:37:40 Of course, you need a big monitor and high-res card to make it usable. 17:37:57 In fact, I'm inside twin right now. 17:38:04 got big monitor at home, using dual-head here 17:38:23 x resolution there is 1792x1344 17:38:29 Nice. 17:38:31 here two small screens 17:38:36 xinerama 17:39:20 haven't setup fb or svgamode to support 1792x1344 yet 17:40:10 Anyhow, I think I'm going to put some heuristics in my shell init to set NEWWIN appropriately. 17:44:53 ~ 17:44:59 I mean hey. 17:47:11 hey fractal 17:47:20 What's new? 17:47:29 wassup ? 17:47:45 Not much... 17:48:21 Working on a z80 forth for my TI calculator. 17:49:02 z80 is kind of an interesting processor actually... 17:49:16 i might run twin in an xterm :) 17:49:30 have full res there, plus xinerama . 17:49:32 Umm... What? 17:49:43 Fractal: told male 17:49:53 Or you could just use the framebuffer ;-) 17:49:54 What's xinerama? 17:50:25 several monitors, screen area combined to form a virtual big monitor 17:50:43 Oh ok... That could be useful... 17:51:06 Not as useful as 2 networked computers, each with a monitor though, I imagine. :) 17:51:46 Fractal: move mouse from one to the other. drag window from one to other. have window stretched over both screens... 17:52:34 Couldn't you just run 2 different X servers? 17:52:38 more computers on the net can still have their own monitors 17:52:54 fractal: how would i move a window from one to the other ? 17:53:22 Hm... There's gotta be a way to reattach process on one xserver to another. I'd be suprised if there wasn't. 17:53:43 It's a non-problem, Fractal. 17:53:44 fractal: don't need to reattach. just move it over 17:54:18 Yeah, well it sounds cool. Have fun. 17:56:40 ah. twin supports X output 17:56:51 Yes, it does. 17:56:58 I think it has some lame graphics support now too. 17:57:16 good. haven't gpm installed :) 17:57:55 would have to change x setup, so gpm wouldn't fight x for mouse control 17:58:07 It isn't that hard. 17:58:08 but don't want to exit X now... 17:58:22 Ahh ;-) 17:58:24 but can't be done without restarting x 17:58:59 twin looks much nicer than i remember 17:59:38 has somehow a borland-look 18:00:07 Oh, I don't remember what it used to look like. I've got the rc file totally redone. 18:12:51 This is very neat.. Now I just say $OPEN command & and it opens in a new window, in X, in Twin, and in Screen. 18:13:12 Too bad I can't count on that working on anyone else's system. 18:17:15 how do you open a new window in twin from a non-twin shell ? 18:18:09 Well, that's not what I'm doing. But you'd have to set TWDISPLAY. 18:18:20 ah. thanks 18:18:52 twfindtwin will show you what it should be. 18:18:55 Or so I recall. 18:20:12 --- quit: I440r () 18:21:18 Ahh. and now I can have gdb open in a new window on the program I'm editing from vim in a few keystrokes. 18:23:42 twin? 18:23:44 what is it? 18:24:01 a text mode window manager. 18:24:33 Like screen but with more GUI like windows. 18:24:45 ie. mouse support. 18:27:08 hmm 18:27:15 is it 4 linux? 18:27:33 based on turbovision by chance? 18:28:24 Something like that. 18:28:33 I'm not sure how linux specific it is. 18:28:44 url? 18:29:00 You can't look it up yourself? 18:29:03 twin.sf.net ;-) 18:30:00 the author's email adress is ...@linuz.sns.it 18:30:01 okay, its also included in2 woody 18:30:03 thx 18:30:09 sounds pretty linuxy 18:30:29 Well, that doesn't mean it isn't portable. 18:31:03 oh, yeah its abs turbovision like 18:31:05 true. and the fact that it supports X also doesn't mean much 18:31:36 after all, X runs on windows too 18:31:42