00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.01.18
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05:40:21 <FML> howdy Robert.
05:41:57 <Robert> Hi FML.
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05:56:30 <Robert> mur!
05:57:27 <mur> query returns true
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07:56:27 <Robert> Hi Speuler.
07:56:29 <Speuler> gudd moorneng
07:57:19 * Speuler carefully squeezes his eyes open. trying to locate a trace of sunlight
07:57:55 <Speuler> oh, no more sun. time to get up
07:58:34 * Speuler tries to spot a breakfast victim
08:01:07 <Robert> You maybe should consider getting up earlier ;)
08:01:18 <Speuler> why ?
08:01:34 <Robert> So that you sometimes will see the sun!
08:01:53 <Speuler> i did so this morning :)
08:02:09 <mur> Speuler, sure it was not evening before it got down? :)
08:02:44 <Speuler> i'm not the one without whome the sun wouldn't takes its path
08:03:01 * mur does not live underground :(
08:03:06 <mur> i dont know the conditions very well
08:17:42 <Speuler> anyone already configured apache for video streaming ?
08:18:13 --- nick: mur -> [mur][mur][mur]
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14:02:50 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
14:02:52 <Mur> show me magic
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14:42:13 <Robert> Hi TheBlueWizard, proteusguy :)
14:42:44 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Robert, proteusguy :)
14:42:48 <TheBlueWizard> hiya mur too
14:46:31 * Mur casts a spell
14:46:34 <Mur> BOM!
14:46:43 <TheBlueWizard> what for?
14:46:52 <Mur> fun
14:47:10 <TheBlueWizard> oh? hmm...so what are you trying to destroy?
14:48:00 <Mur> destroying is not virtue
14:48:13 <Mur> creating is fun too
14:49:46 <TheBlueWizard> if you say so....like creating a new pathway in a mine, maybe, hmm?
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15:58:29 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye all
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16:27:21 <Robert> Hi.
16:31:21 <Speuler> hi
16:31:43 <Speuler> nizchkda ?
16:31:53 <Speuler> nizchka ...
16:33:04 <Speuler> he man word wakker :)
16:36:16 <Robert> That sounds like an obscure mix of English and misspelled German...oh, wait, it IS dutch!
16:36:46 <Speuler> "hey man, wake up"
16:37:42 <Robert> "vakna" = wake up :)
16:40:31 <Mur> herää= wake up
16:44:00 --- join: male (~male@cpe-024-033-030-124.midsouth.rr.com) joined #forth
16:46:37 <male> So anyhow, how do you all feel about threading techniques?
16:46:53 <Robert> Don't thread. Stay single tasking!
16:47:28 <male> Well, I am muti-threaded. But I meant the other kind of threading.. Indirect vs Subroutine to be exact.
16:48:10 <Robert> Oh.
16:48:43 <Robert> Like he says in "Moving Forth" - experiment on your own.
16:48:45 <male> I've been feeling lately like I'm being too much of a purist by sticking to indirect threading.
16:49:02 <male> Well, believe me I've done all the experimenting I care to.
16:49:12 <Robert> Then you should be wise by now ;)
16:49:42 <Robert> I think subroutine threading seems interesting enough.
16:49:53 <male> Perhaps I am, but nontheless my environment is the unchanged. C imposes some very odd restrictions on what can be accomplished through indirect threading.
16:49:56 <Robert> In spite of what I440r thinks about it.
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16:50:06 <Robert> Hah!
16:50:12 <Robert> When you talk about the devil...
16:51:01 <Mur> hmm
16:51:46 <male> Basically the problem is that I can't call primative definitions from within other primatives because the system hasn't been bootstraped yet.. There are about 100 chickens and twice as many eggs.. 
16:52:10 <male> The problem is currently 'solved', but I've never been happy with it.
16:52:50 <male> STC provides another solution, but at what seems to be a tremendous cost.
16:52:52 <Robert> male: C eggs can't be fun to deal with...
16:53:00 <Robert> What cost?
16:53:49 <male> C stack/locals CALL/RET.. You name it. Huge overhead. Not to mention the fact that C's lack of lexical scoping means that I would have to pass the context with every call.
16:54:46 <Robert> Erm. Right, I forgot that you can't just use a sane way of coding it ;)
16:54:57 <male> Bingo ;-)
16:55:04 <male> I'm fighting the compiler tooth and nail.
16:55:05 <Mur> GN!
16:55:14 <Robert> Why not write it in assembly, and make it as small as possible?
16:55:29 <Robert> That way you could easily port it, and write most of the Forth in Forth.
16:56:00 <male> Well, small isn't so important as fast.. And I would, but it isn't that easy to port. And using assembly (believe it or not) drastically reduces the functionality of my language.
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16:56:31 <male> I started out in assembly and switched to C. There's no going back now.
16:56:56 <male> Although, I've considered retargeting for GNU lightning or the like.. But it just isn't mature enough yet.
16:57:18 <male> And c-- has been in a rut for as long as I can remember.
16:57:35 <Robert> Hm.
16:58:06 <Robert> If you write it in assembly and use STC, you could do a ton of fancy optimizations.
16:58:44 <male> If I wrote it in assembly I wouldn't need to use STC.
16:58:51 <Robert> Why is speed so important?
16:59:14 <male> Speed is always important.. Anyone who says otherwise is using a dedicated system.
16:59:37 <Robert> Depends on the task.
17:00:01 <Robert> Sometimes size is more important, sometimes the simplicity is priority #1.
17:00:46 <male> Actually, it doesn't. In a multi-user system every slice of the cpu makes a difference.
17:02:59 <Robert> Hm. Okay then, have fun solving this problem :)
17:04:55 <nizchka> Sorry Speuler was busy doing something in the room
17:05:19 <Speuler> hoi
17:05:21 <Speuler> net terug
17:05:29 <nizchka> he how are you still working!
17:05:29 <Speuler> ben net met michiel aan het praten
17:05:41 <Speuler> nizchka:  /join #bean
17:05:42 <nizchka> He hoe is het met michiel
17:05:48 <Speuler> daar zittie
17:06:30 <I440r> hi ppl
17:06:55 <I440r> im writing a memory allocation thingie for isforth now - with a 16 byte granularity instead of 4k :P
17:07:18 <Robert> Good!
17:07:20 <Robert> :)
17:08:06 <I440r> its actually quite easy - but im trying to make the code as efficient as possible
17:14:32 <male> Back--Well, I didn't really expect anyone to solve it (nobody has yet), I was just curious as to the public view on the matter.
17:14:52 <male> I440r, still got that terminfo code on hold?
17:16:02 <male> It seems that most of the C forths out there are token threaded anyhow, which I don't even consider an option.
17:17:23 <male> Not to mention that Forth programmers seem to write some of the ugliest C code you'll ever find.
17:17:42 <Robert> Heh.
17:17:52 <Robert> Liar! Liar! I'm...perfect.
17:18:53 <male> Not to say that its easy to write correct C without the compiler doing something foolish.
17:19:08 <male> Sure you are, Robert.
17:19:09 <male> ;-)
17:19:54 <male> What are some other irc servers that carry forth channels?
17:20:28 <Robert> Hmm..
17:20:35 <Robert> If you discover any, tell me!
17:21:20 <male> I was just curious if there are any that folks like Jeff Fox frequent.
17:21:39 <male> Not to say that I don't enjoy the company here ;-)
17:22:13 <male> Sometimes I don't know why anyone bothers with usenet anymore.
17:22:43 <Robert> Jeff Fox visits here.
17:23:01 <Robert> Not that often, but if you wait long enough...
17:25:53 <male> It certainly isn't anything urgent.
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17:39:08 <I440r> male the terminfo code is released
17:39:19 <I440r> i released 1.10b
17:40:06 <I440r> this is the only irc network with an active #forth
17:44:21 <Robert> Hmm... why always 'b' versions=
17:44:57 <I440r> beta
17:45:02 <Robert> Ah.
17:45:09 <I440r> not stable yet
17:45:15 <Robert> So THAT'S what win95b was :P
18:16:39 <male> Right, well I looked at the code but it didn't look complete.
18:17:26 <male> I like the new source layout, though.
18:19:44 <male> I've actually been considering a system in which the terminfo description would be translated to the native language, in your case Forth.
18:21:37 <male> Anyhow, I've got to be going. Have fun ;-)
18:21:41 --- quit: male ("[BX] Have you huggled your BitchX today?")
18:29:09 <I440r> male in isforth ? - yea - the old source layout was fubar :P
18:29:59 <Robert> 03:21 -!- male [~male@cpe-024-033-030-124.midsouth.rr.com] has quit ["[BX] Have you huggled your BitchX today?"]
18:30:03 <Robert> TOO LATE!
18:32:19 <Speuler> re
18:32:34 <Robert> Hi Speuler.
18:32:41 <Speuler> 'morning
18:32:56 <Speuler> busy ?
18:36:50 <Robert> Hmm..
18:36:56 <Robert> I'm never busy.
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20:05:41 <lxhp> mark?
20:05:57 <lxhp> -> I440r
20:07:39 <Robert> Hmm.
20:07:53 <Robert> Er schläft vielleicht :)
20:08:46 <lxhp> nice to see something - premiere mit irc - was nun?
20:09:51 <Robert> Hmm... well, I'm not really sure about it.
20:09:58 <lxhp> wegen "schlaeft": wie spaet mags dort sein?
20:09:58 <Robert> He talked 1,5 hours ago.
20:10:05 <Robert> Hmm..
20:10:12 <Robert> Around midnight, I'd guess.
20:10:18 <Robert> Maybe earlier.
20:10:46 <lxhp> ok. I'll try another time. thx.
20:11:02 <Robert> :)
20:11:19 <I440r> hi
20:11:30 <I440r> is that h.p.r ?
20:11:48 <I440r> hi :)P
20:11:57 <lxhp> ha! hp (f4 &c)
20:12:02 <I440r> thats the lib4th guy :)
20:12:12 <I440r> :)
20:12:19 <I440r> i thunked that was you :)
20:12:39 <I440r> im writing a memory manager for isforth atm
20:12:43 <lxhp> Im a bit nervous, nerver tired irc, bevore (only remember the old bbs time)
20:12:46 <I440r> a sub-allocator
20:13:01 <I440r> irc is evil. its the great time waster :)
20:14:06 <lxhp> not this moment: cost free only sunday 00h till monday 00h ,  so limited to those 24 hours
20:14:14 <I440r> have you looked at the terminfo stuff more ?
20:14:34 <lxhp> i dit a tiny bit
20:14:43 <I440r> aha - yes. that tends to limit the evil of irc, if you have to PAY to be here one tends to do other things :)
20:14:45 <lxhp> need some thorogh tests
20:15:01 <I440r> yes - its not 100% finished yet
20:15:03 <lxhp> right
20:15:09 <I440r> im sure there are holes in it though
20:15:25 <I440r> ive sort of decided how im going to "finish" it tho
20:15:49 <I440r> im going to create a isforth terminfo file and use it for the defaults
20:16:02 <lxhp> I'm trying to get F4 into some final state, then 'bookkeeping' ;(
20:16:07 <I440r> if the REAL terminal has a blank entry then we will take the string from the "default" file
20:16:10 <lxhp> terminfo comes later
20:16:25 <I440r> right. 
20:16:41 <I440r> do you know how to do the book keeping software?
20:16:50 <I440r> i mean do you know how you want to do it.
20:17:07 <lxhp> yes. - slow response! is irc alwasy like that?
20:17:21 <I440r> no
20:17:25 <Robert> It's not IRC - it's our brains.
20:17:27 <lxhp> i've an old one, but lost the source
20:17:27 <I440r> it can be but isnt always
20:17:31 <I440r> its called lag
20:17:44 <lxhp> huh!
20:17:54 <I440r> you can test the lag from you to someone else by doing /ping someone 
20:18:06 <I440r> where "someone" is the nick of the persion your testing
20:18:08 <lxhp> but, i have some heavy donloading in progress.
20:18:31 <I440r> yes - so do i - that tends to affect lag
20:19:13 <lxhp> prevoius ping on you was 16 sec
20:19:44 <I440r> thats not too bad. ive seen ping times of over an hour - but that only happens if the servers are heavilly bogged down
20:19:51 <Robert> Heh.
20:19:55 <I440r> and you tend to have a net-split when that happens
20:20:38 <lxhp> those old mailboxes were as fast as a real tty
20:21:34 <lxhp> mark, "eterm" was a very helpful suggestion!
20:21:57 <lxhp> operates almost as console, good for tests
20:22:27 <lxhp> just now: ping "cannot find hp" .- tsk
20:23:26 <I440r> ?
20:24:04 <lxhp> btw : what's your localtime?
20:24:22 <I440r> 11:10 pm
20:24:32 <lxhp> i44r your ping just arrived
20:24:34 <I440r> you ?
20:24:42 <I440r> 4 am ?
20:24:57 <lxhp> too late?
20:25:06 <lxhp> 05.25 (am)
20:25:23 <I440r> no its only 11:10 here - i wont be going zzz for a while :)
20:26:07 <lxhp> i won't either, 
20:26:16 <lxhp> 'sleep is waste of night'
20:26:25 <I440r> did you stay up all night or get up early ?
20:27:16 <lxhp> got up at 9 am, slept an hour or two, got up again, it is alwasy like that
20:27:32 <I440r> how come ?
20:27:44 <I440r> if i dont get 11 hours of sleep a night im dead :)
20:28:13 <lxhp> no work, none else to adjust my time to...
20:28:41 <I440r> i got the same problem :P
20:28:47 <I440r> no work, no girl friend
20:29:00 <lxhp> oh. i need about 4, but several times per day
20:29:15 <lxhp> no. nothing. got to change that, somtime.
20:29:28 <lxhp> the latter.
20:29:55 <lxhp> none wants me working for him
20:30:19 <I440r> nobody is hiring here
20:30:25 <lxhp> too 'old', too 'dumb' an all that nonsense 
20:30:40 <lxhp> but also 'tinnitus' which i hate but, can't help.
20:31:23 <I440r> repetative strain injury ?
20:31:27 <Speuler> t'is that bad in berlin ?
20:31:48 * Speuler was considering moving to berlin
20:32:27 <lxhp> i like the city, i was born (almost) here
20:32:32 <lxhp> and i won't move, easily 
20:32:41 <Speuler> I440r: tinnitus = beep in the ear, not rss
20:32:58 <lxhp> exactly.
20:33:10 <lxhp> quite annoying
20:33:22 <I440r> oh
20:33:35 <lxhp> i can manage it easily as long as none interferes
20:33:52 <Speuler> lxhp: tend to work alone ?
20:33:54 <lxhp> thus no regular work.
20:34:28 <Speuler> what are you good with, besides forth ?
20:34:29 <lxhp> yes, (almost) nothing else possible
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20:34:58 <lxhp> electronics design, high-tension & measurement equipment
20:35:32 <lxhp> also in 'forteign trade' building materials
20:35:43 <Speuler> hi-voltage ?
20:36:05 <lxhp> bt tim passed by, so i wont't know about the most current regulations.
20:36:33 <lxhp> hi-v: X-ray generator control, hi-tension power supply
20:36:34 <I440r> lxhp familiar with landis & gyr ?
20:36:35 <Speuler> what do you like to do ?
20:37:09 <lxhp> the job i liked most was a small X-ray tubes development 
20:37:32 <I440r> clystron ?
20:37:32 <lxhp> company were I did everything which involved electricity
20:38:26 <lxhp> know that only from the 'microwave', would be interesting
20:38:41 <Speuler> i'm in munich. job situation might be better, but t'is bluddy expensive here
20:38:58 <Speuler> forget about getting a flat. very different to berlin
20:39:26 <lxhp> for a limited time i could offer a room,
20:39:42 <Speuler> i doubt :)
20:39:43 <lxhp> 25 qm, though not very comfortable 
20:40:00 <Speuler> if moving, we'll be moving with about 6 or 8 people :)
20:40:25 <lxhp> i wont mind...
20:40:25 <Speuler> company and pub 
20:40:29 <lxhp> :)
20:40:38 <lxhp> the latter.
20:40:41 <Speuler> both
20:40:48 <lxhp> sorry.
20:42:47 <lxhp> 'landis & gyr' ???
20:43:19 <I440r> they make power meters
20:44:05 <lxhp> that's part of 'my domain'
20:44:13 <lxhp> repairwordk &c
20:45:15 <Speuler> that's the pub :   http://www.haupt-server.de/aenima/
20:45:55 <lxhp> huch nicht kneipe (was istt das auf englisch?)
20:46:11 <Speuler> kneipe = pub
20:46:32 <Speuler> foreseeing mass emigration :)
20:46:51 <lxhp> :)
20:47:11 <Speuler> company is into computer stuff
20:47:27 <I440r> i cant emmigrate :P
20:47:35 <I440r> i baught a house :)
20:47:52 <Speuler> company president works as barkeeper too :)
20:48:15 <Speuler> pub is client of company
20:48:26 <lxhp> that may have a chance in berlin
20:48:35 <lxhp> as long as no real productivity involved
20:48:54 <Speuler> company does promotional equipment and services
20:49:09 <Speuler> presentation systems
20:49:57 <lxhp> not a problem if you have international customers
20:50:05 <lxhp> berlin is daed, otherwise
20:51:44 <Speuler> can't be worse than oberammergau
20:52:04 <lxhp> certainly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
20:52:36 <lxhp> only, the local government was pushing on service companies
20:52:46 <lxhp> and killed almost all productivity
20:53:17 <Speuler> it sounds like conditions would be pretty good for small companies
20:53:26 <Speuler> got that from several sources
20:53:27 <lxhp> so no companie which can spend their mony for servi#ces.
20:53:35 <lxhp> right.
20:54:07 <lxhp> only those, i think, have a chance - but again, no production companies!
20:54:50 <Speuler> if the economy is down, companies would need promotional services 
20:54:52 <lxhp> you gaot to be able managing everything by yourself
20:55:04 <Speuler> that's the market of this company
20:55:28 <lxhp> but, the 'senat' does not allow those. 
20:55:29 <Speuler> (well, maybe not "need" but "are more likely to pay for")
20:55:59 <lxhp> they would need if they were present
20:56:43 <Speuler> and for the ones who couldn't afford it, there's the refinance plan - giving them the product essentially for free :)
20:56:54 <lxhp> situation where only e few kilometers away the wages were about 2/3 made anyone moveing out of berlin who was able to do so
20:57:17 <Speuler> ... and paying double rent
20:57:39 <Speuler> there are internet cafes in berlin where you pay 1.50 E / hour, right ?
20:58:12 <Speuler> in munich you pay 4 E / h
20:58:47 <lxhp> ? never tried, mine is cheaper.
20:58:49 <Speuler> room for < 600E is an illusion here
20:59:30 <Speuler> doesn't help if you earn 1.5 times, if you spent twice the amount
20:59:35 <lxhp> hamburg freihafen, complete bureau 250E, just seen
21:01:13 <lxhp> what sort of room are you looking for - and, honestly?
21:01:33 <Speuler> office + living space, about 4-5 people
21:01:43 <Speuler> a house :)
21:02:00 <lxhp> 'loft' ?
21:02:15 <Speuler> two floors
21:02:29 <Speuler> downstairs commercial zone
21:02:47 <lxhp> an example: my brother hired a house in potsdam, 2 floors + cellar, 
21:02:49 <Speuler> some spare space
21:03:10 <lxhp> cellar is business space + under the roof, 5000E/month
21:03:36 <lxhp> discouraging?
21:03:37 <Speuler> too expensive
21:04:10 <lxhp> those lofts might be less, but noplce to living
21:04:34 <lxhp> a 'normal flat', 3 rooms, bath, klo, min 550E
21:05:39 <Speuler> better :)
21:05:59 <I440r> so how do you like irc so far lxhp ?
21:06:44 <lxhp> i44r, very enlightning :)
21:07:09 <I440r> i can be - its about 99% bullshit tho :)
21:07:16 <lxhp> sorry for the lost "0"
21:07:20 <I440r> after a while one learns to filter that part out
21:07:26 <I440r> or at least MOST of it :)
21:07:34 <I440r> thas ok :)
21:07:35 <lxhp> i won't dare saying so.
21:08:06 <Speuler> efnet is much worse
21:08:28 <I440r> dal is worst
21:08:45 <Speuler> not to mention ircnet
21:08:46 <I440r> dal has to be the absolute worst irc network in existance
21:09:03 <I440r> ircnet isnt too bad
21:09:12 <I440r> at least #coders there has REAL coders 
21:09:17 <lxhp> ok than. got my experience. had not really anything to tell, nor to ask, best + until next time, mark. bibi
21:09:43 <Speuler> hmm. linux community there is split, fighting each other
21:10:11 <Speuler> (german linux, that is)
21:10:13 <I440r> nite nite lxhp
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21:10:23 <I440r> im going to be going to zzz soon too
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21:10:40 <Speuler> i wonder whether i just should stay up
21:10:43 <lxhp> :)
21:10:43 <lxhp> same to you
21:10:51 <Speuler> getting later from day to day
21:10:57 <Speuler> night lxhp
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21:11:23 <Speuler> another week, and i'll be going to sleep at noon
21:11:38 <Speuler> and wake up 9 p.m.
21:12:25 <Speuler> tis getting to the point where i might just stay up, and fall asleep nicely early in the evening
21:12:42 <Speuler> t'is sunday anyway
21:12:54 <Speuler> lords day
21:12:56 <Speuler> hmpff
21:12:56 <I440r> im just waiting on some download to complete and then im going zzz :)
21:20:24 <Speuler> any scifi books you were looking for ?
21:21:41 <I440r> me ?
21:21:49 <Speuler> ya
21:21:53 <I440r> not right now, i want "termcap and terminfo" tho
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.01.18