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07:28:40 <iangreen> 4thers
08:48:28 <Robert> iangreens.
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09:22:37 <onetom> re
09:23:45 <iangreen> re
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10:43:43 <Speuler> moin
10:48:01 <Speuler> robert: alive/awake ?
10:49:17 <onetom> just me ;)
10:49:34 <Speuler> "just" ?
10:50:06 <Speuler> you're not suffering from inferiority complex, do you ?
10:55:39 <onetom> :)
10:56:02 <onetom> just, in the sense: some1 u r not lookin 4
11:11:21 <Robert> Speuler: Kind of.
11:13:17 <Speuler> robert: what's the name of your town ?
11:22:00 <Robert> Kungsängen.
11:22:06 <Robert> Why?
11:22:28 <Speuler> want to check quality of sweden metro guide
11:23:25 <Speuler> you like tibble pizza ?
11:24:20 <Speuler> (corner klockvagen/skolvagen)
11:24:50 <Speuler> 150 m east ok ok gas station
11:26:36 <Robert> I've eaten there once.
11:26:48 <Robert> Find out what the other 2 (or 3) pizzerias here are called ;)
11:27:12 <Robert> It's a small townm - just a few thousand, but still tons of pizza places-
11:27:21 <Speuler> only see mcdonalds in jarvalla
11:27:28 <Robert> Järfälla*
11:27:44 <Speuler> and kahe china restaurant
11:28:08 <Robert> We have at least 2 pizzerias in Kungsängen, 1 in Tibble (100 meters from Kungsängen), and at least one in Brunna (1 km away).
11:28:22 <Robert> Aw... bad guide. ;)
11:29:26 <Speuler> alexandra is on too
11:29:47 <Speuler> (torget)
11:31:20 <Speuler> no pizzeria in brunna (following granhammarsvagen)
11:32:07 <Speuler> and the angsjo friluftsomrade
11:32:48 <Robert> There is "Brunna Pizzeria" in the Coop Forum building, just on the side of Granhammarsvägen.
11:33:48 <Speuler> where about ?  musikvagen, marknadsstijgen, konstvagen or further up ?
11:34:53 <Speuler> i'm at the e18 highway crossing now
11:35:09 <Speuler> looking for a pizzeria :)
11:35:53 <Robert> Hmmm...
11:36:03 <Robert> "stijgen", heh...
11:36:07 <Robert> We don't use "ij" here ;)
11:36:16 <Robert> Leaving that for the Dutchmen and Russians.
11:36:24 <Speuler> oh right. stigen
11:37:07 <Robert> :)
11:38:48 <Speuler> got the feeling for completeness for sweden map now
11:39:41 <Speuler> what's the smallest "stig" you (which still has a name) you know in kungsangen ?
11:40:27 <Speuler> backstigen is still on
11:40:58 <Speuler> so is furustigen and bergstigen
11:41:13 <Speuler> stromkarlen
11:41:23 <Speuler> nackudden
11:41:33 <Speuler> that's about the limit of what it can show
11:42:11 <Speuler> the smaller ones are only called "road"
11:44:23 <Speuler> ortugsvagen
11:44:40 <Speuler> tibble torg
11:45:30 <Speuler> yes, that's about it. tibble torg is the smallest discernible feature
11:46:23 <Speuler> how impressive is tibble torg in reality ? i.e. how big your chances you miss it if you walk along :)?
11:52:45 <Robert> Hmm...
11:53:19 <Robert> It's actually just a small parking lot, a store and a library.
11:54:10 <Robert> Just enter the right bus on the station, try to pronounce "Tibble torg" and then ask the driver to tell you when you're there :P
12:05:00 <Speuler> (i have a gps into which i can download these maps, i.e. the machine could show me current position, direction and distance to destination, apart from the map)
12:05:17 <Speuler> if i ever wanted to go to tibble torg :)
12:05:24 <Robert> Hah.
12:05:42 <Robert> Yes, walking from Germany to Tibble Torg is certainly a good idea.
12:05:46 <Speuler> i can judge the map quality for german, dutch, austrian maps
12:05:51 <Speuler> but not for swedish
12:06:16 <Speuler> would work using a bicycle too :)
12:06:22 <Speuler> (got another gps in the bus)
12:06:41 <Robert> Long ride.
12:08:08 <Speuler> made it by bicycle to just across the water of goteborg
12:09:17 <Speuler> a mere 500 km or so to go from there
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12:09:54 <Robert> I think 5 km is much. ;)
12:10:16 <Speuler> your just 15 or 20 km to center of stockholm
12:10:29 <Speuler> that's an hour or less of cycling
12:12:46 <Robert> That's the theory. Just you try to do it.
12:13:36 <Speuler> mountains ?
12:13:39 <Robert> You can't ride bikes on the autobahn, and the smaller ways are...heh, like a gigant labyrint.
12:14:39 <Speuler> the southern birdge to jaerfaella looks accessible
12:14:42 <Speuler> bridge
12:15:16 <Speuler> then i'd probably try passadvagen
12:15:54 <Speuler> and at blixtvagen right into ekedalsvagen
12:16:27 <Speuler> till sangvagen, there right again
12:16:44 <Speuler> sloijdvagen left
12:18:16 <Speuler> towards ekvagen
12:18:50 <Robert> A maze... :)
12:19:02 <Speuler> yes, can see that :)
12:19:17 <Speuler> needs planning the route carefully 
12:19:24 <Robert> Besides, I don't really like crossing a dozen of big roads in just a couple of kilometers.
12:19:42 * Robert is used to paths in the wood where you rarley meet anybody.
12:32:44 <Speuler> always carrying a means to produce fire with you ?
12:33:06 <Speuler> never without pocket knife ?
12:33:43 * Speuler pads his magnesium chunk
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12:47:11 <Robert> Heh.
12:47:29 <Robert> No, I don't.
12:47:33 <Robert> Hey I440r 
12:47:57 <I440r> hi
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13:29:14 <gilbertbsd> hi 4thsmithSpeuler
13:29:22 <Fractal> Hey all.
13:29:31 <Robert> Hi Fractal, gilbert, Speuler.
13:29:59 <Fractal> Hey, I have an idea for a project for this channel.
13:30:19 <Fractal> http://opencbp.sourceforge.net/     < I'm thinking something like this, but for forth.
13:30:26 <Fractal> Everyone could contribute a chapter.
13:30:45 <Fractal> (Or more)
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13:32:41 <Fractal> We could make the most comprehensive forth reference available.
13:33:01 <Robert> Fractal: Neat. I'm however afraid that I can't promise anything (not that I'm a good English speaker, and an even worse Forther), but I really can't do the same thing for more than a few days.
13:33:43 <Robert> What kind of reference, I mean, Forth isn't really a standardized language and library, like an ANSI C compiler in POSIX environment.
13:34:11 <gilbertbsd> Fractal do you want a forth encyclopaedia?
13:34:35 <Fractal> Well yeah. Ideally we'd have chapters on the forth "fundamentals" and various other chapters explaining different styles of forth.
13:34:44 <Fractal> gilbertbsd : In a sense...
13:34:56 <Fractal> Actually there already is a book called that.
13:35:01 <Fractal> "The Forth Encyclopedia"
13:35:04 <gilbertbsd> I wish all articles written on forth to date were available online.
13:35:31 <Robert> Fractal: What fundamentals?
13:35:50 <Robert> Fractal: I mean, people can't even agree on how to do something as simple as looping :)
13:35:59 <Robert> What's left?
13:35:59 <Fractal> Well, basic word functions, forth attitude, forth history, etc.
13:36:13 <Fractal> Most people agree on what dup does.
13:36:16 <Robert> That sounds more like a smaller article.
13:36:17 <Fractal> And such.
13:36:17 <Robert> Yeah.
13:36:31 <Speuler> robert: ans forth is standardized, just as ansi c is
13:37:14 <Fractal> Speuler : First off, very few (if any) forth implementations strictly follow the standard, and secondly, the ANS forth standard allows a LOT more flexibility than, say, the C standard.
13:37:15 <Robert> Speuler: Yes, but would you say it's right to choose ANS of all the Forth variants available?
13:37:29 <Fractal> Even gforth isn't strictly ANS compliant.
13:37:45 <Speuler> Fractal: in terms of implementation, yes, but not in terms of word function
13:38:02 <Speuler> robert: what do you want to document ?
13:38:27 <Speuler> description of what words do is superfluous
13:38:31 <Fractal> Speuler : Oh, agreed. Most forths are functionally equivalent. It's the (relatively minor) differences people tend to focus on.
13:38:32 <Speuler> i'd think more about a tutorial
13:38:44 <Robert> "Build your own Forth" and "Moving Forth" are very nice papers, that would maybe be a good thing to focus a documentation project around, the internals of different Forths.
13:38:58 <Robert> Not ONLY that, but as a part of a bigger projet.
13:39:00 <Robert> project*
13:39:08 <Fractal> Yeah, "Moving Forth" is great.
13:39:25 <gilbertbsd> fractal have you seen the book "Lisp In Small Pieces" by quiennec?
13:39:36 <gilbertbsd> it has about 11 scheme implementations.
13:39:37 <Speuler> fractal: if a forth is not ans compliant, t'will show of course discrepances to what the standard demands
13:39:52 <Fractal> Yeah, well if we could get Brad Rodriguez to give permission, we could use pieces of his article as chapters for sure.
13:40:11 <Fractal> gilbertbsd : Heh. No, I haven't.
13:40:23 <Fractal> Er, I gotta run. Think about this, people.
13:40:27 <Fractal> Later.
13:40:33 <gilbertbsd> scheme suffers from the same malais as forth: everyone wants to build one, no one wants to really use one ;)
13:41:02 <Speuler> "how would you use the functionality you get by forth words (even make it "standard forth words") would be more useful, probably interesting too, than a description of what forth contains as standard words
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13:42:02 <Speuler> after all, you can study dpans in detail, but not getting any answer on how to put it into practice
13:43:26 <gilbertbsd> speuler are you talking about a cookbook?
13:43:47 <Speuler> probably.
13:44:06 <Speuler> if my idea of "tutorial" matches your idea of "cookbook"
13:46:24 <gilbertbsd> a problem I had with J/apl was that I did not know how to think of j based solutions.
13:46:35 <gilbertbsd> perhaps your tutorial might be a way of teaching forthThink?
13:47:14 <gilbertbsd> because I don't think Forth use would be justified if all it will be used as is procedurally.
13:55:17 * Speuler thinks it is difficult to write good tutorials
13:55:41 <Speuler> 1. who's the intended audience ?
13:56:03 <Speuler> 2. is it necessary to explain what a computer is ?
13:56:43 <Speuler> will the tutorial have practical or theoretical focus ?
13:56:54 <Speuler> how smart are the people you write for ?
13:57:27 <Robert> A simple rule is to write something youself will or would have appreciated.
13:57:45 <Speuler> a tutorial may be perfect for a very limited number of readers, and useless for the rest
13:58:37 <Speuler> i know a good 5-word tutorial:
13:58:46 <Speuler>   "write your own forth interpreter"
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13:59:56 <gilbertbsd> hahaha
14:00:01 <Speuler> problem of a tutorial may also be to find the right type of problems
14:00:22 <Speuler> it is necessary to leave space for imagination and experimentation
14:00:38 <Speuler> if one follows an example line by line,
14:00:43 <Speuler> he learns how to type
14:00:49 <Speuler> but not how to use the language
14:01:13 <Speuler> that is, a tutorial should not give ready-cooked answers
14:01:44 <gilbertbsd> why not?
14:01:59 <Speuler> cause it doesn't prompt the reader into thinking
14:02:00 <gilbertbsd> Programming Python/Perl are like that. and they are highly appreciated.
14:02:20 <gilbertbsd> the thing is that once you have something to look at, you can play with it in so many different ways.
14:02:39 <Speuler> a tutorial could require to play with it
14:03:42 <Speuler> by leaving things unanswered
14:04:31 <Speuler> anyway, phood phrenzy time
14:05:24 * Speuler looks for the tutorial "1001 ways to obtains a free meal"
14:08:20 <gilbertbsd> get a wife.
14:08:33 <Speuler> who works for the kitchen kitty ?
14:08:44 <gilbertbsd> now free would be relative. TINSTAAFL
14:08:54 <gilbertbsd> also TINSTAAFM generally.
14:12:06 <Speuler> ah.
14:12:11 <Speuler> TANSTAAFL
14:12:27 <Speuler> the moon is a harsh mistress
14:14:16 <gilbertbsd> TAN?
14:14:24 <gilbertbsd> whats the 'A'?
14:14:28 <Speuler> ain't
14:15:02 <Speuler> If I hadn't believed simple arithmetic that you can't ship stuff downhill forever without shipping replacement back, would have tossed in cards. But. . . tanstanfl. "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch," in Bombay or in Luna.
14:15:18 <Speuler> (quote from the book)
14:16:05 <Speuler> the "n" in tanstafl is probably the result of an error when ocr-ing the text
14:16:44 <Speuler> "Just the standard contract covering services for personal protection and property conservation, and guaranteeing payment. You can't expect to roust a platoon of guards out of bed in the middle of the night and not pay for it. TANSTAAFL. No free lunch."
14:17:11 <Speuler> She looked surprised, indignant. "Come, come!" I said. "Tanstaafl."
14:17:25 <Speuler>  "Oh, 'tanstaafl.' Means ~There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.' And isn't," I added, pointing to a FREE LUNCH sign across room, "or these drinks would cost half as much. Was reminding her that anything free costs twice as much in long run or turns out worthless."
14:17:52 <Speuler> "Certainly. Is so simple that, once you understand, you'll never be in danger from it again. Here we are, two million males, less than one million females. A physical fact, basic as rock or vacuum. Then add idea of tanstaafl. When thing is scarce, price goes up. Women are scarce; aren't enough to go around--that makes them most valuable thing in Luna, more precious than ice or air, as men without women don't care whether they stay alive or
14:18:06 <Speuler> : Hadn't realized "Free Luna" was going to have taxes. Hadn't had any before and got along. You paid for what you got. Tanstaafl. How else?
14:18:17 <Speuler>  "Gospodin President! Question of information! You said 'no involuntary taxation'-- Then how do you expect us to pay for things? Tanstaafl!"
14:18:33 <Speuler>  a brass cannon on a pedestal in middle of Old Dome and over it a flag fluttering in blower breeze--black field speckled with stars, bar sinister in blood, a proud and jaunty brass cannon embroidered over all, and below it our motto: TANSTAAFL! That's where we hold our Fourth-of-July celebrations.
14:19:29 <Speuler>         "You sound like your late father. I think he invented tanstaafl."
14:20:06 <Speuler> anyone interested in the book ?
14:21:35 <gilbertbsd> whats the book?
14:21:45 <Speuler> Heinlein, Robert A - Moon Is A Harsh Mistress
14:23:42 <gilbertbsd> I will get it sometime. why did you need to put it on disk?
14:24:08 <Speuler> got about 2000 books, to copy to the ipaq (portable device) for reading :)
14:25:03 <Speuler> mostly SciFi
14:26:04 <gilbertbsd> ah the 40 years worth of reading.
14:26:31 <Speuler> about yes
14:26:44 <Speuler> well, i know some of those alreeady
14:26:56 <Speuler> (just busy working through terry pratchett)
14:28:31 <Speuler> those books don't fit all at once on the ipaq
14:28:52 <Speuler> i usually got no more than about 50...100 on it
14:29:07 <Speuler> which is enough for some evenings out
14:29:12 <gilbertbsd> thats a looot of stuff to read.
14:29:25 <Speuler> hmm
14:29:44 <Speuler> guess you're right
14:30:03 <Speuler> i can skip a book or two if i don't like them
14:30:26 <Speuler> but still get an idea of which author i'm not too keen about
14:30:52 <Speuler> for example., i'm not too much into reading brian aldiss
14:31:09 <Speuler> even though many people like to read him
14:31:17 <Speuler> i.e. his books
14:31:50 <Speuler> any SciFi author you particularily like ?
14:32:49 <Speuler> or SciFa ?
14:32:53 <gilbertbsd> I don't read much scifi
14:33:59 <gilbertbsd> I have been reading too many nonFI
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14:34:31 <onetom> ^^^^^^^ :)
14:34:32 <Speuler> because chances are, i got some books of him/her 
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14:34:48 <Speuler> no flooding here
14:36:26 <Speuler> 223 authors 
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17:09:56 <confuciussayMU> so how was the name change?
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17:15:31 <lament> heh
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