00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.01.13 00:53:09 --- join: Stepan (~stepan@Charybdis.suse.de) joined #forth 00:55:25 hi 01:03:11 hi sylk 01:05:12 i 01:05:14 hi 01:08:02 * sylk is in the process of finding new and improved ways of crashing isforth 01:15:36 --- quit: proteusguy ("Client Exiting") 01:19:52 --- join: proteusguy (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 01:39:00 I've got one... "0 dup !" 01:40:51 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 01:41:42 --- join: proteusguy (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 01:50:12 --- nick: lament -> lol 01:58:32 --- nick: lol -> lament 03:04:31 --- quit: lament ("Non sunt in celi quia fuccant uuiuys of heli") 03:58:22 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:58:44 --- join: proteusguy (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 04:40:29 --- join: nizchka (~nizchka@node-c-bad4.a2000.nl) joined #forth 04:40:40 --- part: nizchka left #forth 04:44:50 --- part: sylk left #forth 04:58:17 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 04:58:38 hi ! 05:44:05 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 06:05:10 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 06:06:12 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Client Quit) 06:07:42 --- join: sylk (search@dialup-125.145.221.203.acc02-geor-mor.comindico.com.au) joined #forth 06:13:19 --- part: sylk left #forth 06:40:33 --- join: I440r (~mark4@sdn-ap-030tnnashP0329.dialsprint.net) joined #forth 06:40:36 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 06:40:44 serg! 06:45:27 hi-i-i ! 06:45:31 how are u ? 06:45:47 not bad :) 07:00:59 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 07:19:14 --- join: Speuler (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba429b.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 07:19:34 bongo! 07:19:42 moin moin 07:19:46 you ever do any work with ncurses ? 07:19:52 nope 07:20:30 but i have implemented text mode multi-windows 07:20:53 not curses-compatible at all 07:21:49 so have i now 07:21:56 better than i had it previously 07:22:05 its faster than it was but not as fast as ncurses heh 07:22:11 supporting different output drivers, including ANSI 07:23:07 (also does bit-map graphics in text mode by redefining secondary character-set) 07:24:14 in a 32x8 character-window 07:24:16 dood. look in my ftp and download the "wintest" executable 07:24:27 run it from your local box and then run it from an ssh 07:24:31 its faster in the ssh! 07:24:38 oh erm i know why heh 07:24:47 the box its actually running on is alot faster than THIS box heh 07:24:48 lol 07:25:09 this is fucking awesome looking when run from the remote box heh 07:27:10 can do that, but later on 07:27:15 k 07:27:38 its just a lil progie to draw some winows in the screen, scroll in one window and move another window back and forth 08:50:13 --- quit: Robert (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 08:50:13 --- quit: skylan (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 08:50:25 --- join: skylan (sjh@Riverview12.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 08:50:25 --- join: Robert (~Robert@h21n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 08:55:05 --- join: confuciussayMU (~knoppix@67.97.122.30) joined #forth 08:55:37 does anyone know if the "journal for forth application and research" is archived online (jfar) 09:00:04 No idea, probably google knows best. 09:02:45 google shows me the abstract but not the stuff. 09:02:55 --- quit: Stepan ("I like core dumps") 09:10:48 --- quit: confuciussayMU ("Client Exiting") 09:15:05 eek! missed him 09:20:21 :/ 09:21:27 if i pull my head out of my ass i might do a release today :P 09:21:31 still no dns tho :P 09:22:01 Yay. 09:22:06 But...what's new then? 09:22:09 Blocks? 09:28:07 yes 09:28:12 and an improved curses code 09:28:44 plus quite a few other changes 09:28:57 ill release my do nothing bot and the sockets code without the dns 09:29:31 Hooray. 09:49:35 --- join: male (~male@cpe-024-033-030-124.midsouth.rr.com) joined #forth 09:54:43 hi male 09:54:47 are you a forth coder ? 09:55:27 --- join: gilbertbsd (~knoppix@67.97.122.30) joined #forth 09:55:33 hullo 09:55:39 Well, more of a language developer ;-) 09:55:46 hi gilbertbsd 09:55:50 cool 09:55:57 well develop forth :) 09:56:01 help me with MY project :P 09:56:16 I'm cursed with the power to see flaws in every language ;-) 09:56:31 male thats good! 09:56:35 I have a few questions for you. 09:56:43 this is not a fight. Repeat this is not going to be a fight. 09:57:01 --- nick: gilbertbsd -> ConfuciusSayMu 09:57:03 Good, because I don't like to fight unless there's blood involved. 09:57:17 have you played with setl? 09:57:43 Actually, no. 09:57:56 what about forth? 09:58:02 what is its biggest flaw? 09:58:24 *sigh* 09:58:41 please don't say lack of apps. 09:58:46 :D 09:59:12 Well, I don't really think about it in such concrete terms. All I know is that forth isn't the perfect language. Its damn close, but the system is still lacking. 09:59:18 * I440r goes and gets his kimber :) 09:59:53 what is the perfect language in your MightyOpinion. 09:59:54 I've actually begun to feel like having a perfect programming language is impossible without first having a perfect chip to write it for.. 09:59:59 male yes - its lacking the userbase c has. 10:00:01 methinks python but then again ... 10:00:22 Well, I have big problems with Perl/Python/Ruby and the like. 10:00:37 they serve the purpose for which they were designed. 10:00:43 Although, if perl6 isn't vaporware it will solve some of them. 10:00:51 you can learn python in an afternoon and start writing readable code by that evening. 10:01:08 and everything perl can do, python can do as well. 10:01:11 Ditto with LOGO, but that doesn't mean much. 10:01:25 LOGO? logo vs what? 10:01:30 I can't read logo very well! 10:01:33 it is a confusing mess! 10:01:34 :D 10:01:34 Learn in an afternoon. 10:01:42 I must be dumb :D 10:01:45 male: What language do you prefer, then? 10:01:47 it took me nine years ;) 10:03:18 Jesus. I don't. I guess I prefer my language, but I have a lot of problems with it as well. I use C of course, but I despise it. It is the utter compromise between low and high level--leaving you with the void in between. 10:03:30 your language? 10:03:32 English? 10:04:03 Ha ;-) It's interesting that you say that. I feel the same way about spoken langauge as I do programming. 10:04:29 It may be that one has to learn to speak Aymara before one can write a decent hunk of code. 10:04:29 and what is it exactly you don't like about them and programming languages? 10:04:34 also what is your language? 10:04:43 Aymara? 10:04:46 chinese? 10:05:14 sumarian prolly :) 10:05:20 Aymara is a tri-valent indian language. 10:05:22 English sucks. 10:05:25 Indeed. 10:05:28 Swedish sucks less, but still alot. 10:06:07 Hawaaian is a tad like forth. 10:06:11 And that frustrates me. It seems like we could do a lot more as human beings if we could communicate our ideas more efficiently. 10:06:33 but I don't know of great forth programmers who benefitted from learning the language. 10:06:43 male: leave out "be" verbs. It cleans English up tremendously. 10:06:59 be gone. 10:07:00 gone. 10:07:02 hmmm. 10:07:10 one is a command, the other is a comment. 10:07:20 TreyB: by turning it into broken English? ;-) 10:07:33 TreyB how would god command the multitude if he could not say 'be gone'? 10:07:44 I go out walk now, I see you all later. 10:07:45 ;) 10:07:46 "Go away." 10:07:54 (Simplified English) 10:08:04 that doesn't have quite the same power as 'be gone satan'. 10:08:25 'go away satan' sounds like something a weak child learning how to speak might say. 10:08:57 get thee behind me :) 10:09:02 You can't just eliminate the word. Dropping be-verbs makes you rethink what you intend to say. 10:09:11 Actually it sounds like the language they speak here in Memphis. 10:09:37 'get thee behind me and push me along'. 10:09:43 male memphis tn or memphis egypt ?? :) 10:09:45 or 'get thee behind me and ...'. 10:10:00 Ha, I suppose it would work either way ;-) TN 10:10:34 so male shall we learn Aymara because of its trivalent logical aspects? 10:10:51 if so forth is way ahead of you ;) 10:11:02 it already adopted the reverse of his notation! 10:11:27 'his' being Luca***polish 10:12:10 male: In any case, I made the proposal seriously. Think about it. 10:12:12 Well, all in all it isn't a perfect language either. I guess we'd have to go all the way back to the tower of Babel for that one. 10:12:29 no we wouldn't! 10:12:44 the tower of babel is what we have now for programming languages. 10:12:56 we could solve all problems by programming in binary! 10:13:08 I'd like to see evolutionary algorithms applied to the problem of a perfect spoken/written language. 10:13:32 No, you're still speaking the language of a broken chip. 10:13:32 there is no such thing as a perfect spoken language. 10:13:46 for the simple reason that we do not know everything about our world. 10:13:54 male your never going to find perfection in spoken OR coded languages :) 10:13:58 besides, you only need two different words to express anything! 10:14:20 Yes, but I'm going to die unhappy anyhow, so why not be a bastard about it? ;-) 10:15:04 A perfect language doesn't have to include a perfect vocabulary. 10:15:04 hehe 10:15:04 male move to miami, find some hot women and die Happy. 10:15:04 how is that? 10:15:23 Death by VD? 10:15:36 no. 10:15:44 they are good clean girls here in miami. 10:15:53 I thought since you were dying anyway it wouldn't matter. 10:15:53 If you say so mate. 10:16:22 so what would the perfect language express that current languages cannot express? 10:16:56 Perhaps nothing.. They would just express it better. 10:17:02 better how? 10:17:18 with precision? 10:17:27 Quicker, with more color. 10:17:29 Right. 10:17:43 How subjective. 10:17:48 Indeed. 10:17:54 I think of it as this: you only need the first few values of pi. 10:18:00 anything else is redundant work. 10:18:05 pi only has one value. 10:18:14 which is? 4? 10:18:26 pi by FIAT? 10:18:47 pi has an infinite number of digits. 10:19:11 Besides, 3 makes a better approximation that 4 for the value of pi. 10:19:20 s/that/than/ 10:19:21 Well, the evolutionary model would have the limits of the human voice as its contraints. To in theory a child could learn to speak the language much earlier than current ones. In fact, adults might speak like children of childish things, and in an adult superset for the more unsavory parts. 10:19:27 it does doesn't it? but why not make it large enough? 10:20:13 I've always thought irc should support regex's ;-) 10:20:30 Or TRAC macros! 10:20:32 so would your proposed language be more formal? 10:20:50 male your talkig about layering the spoken language ? 10:21:00 the forth philosophy is that there is a SINGLE layer 10:21:07 No one said perfection was simple. 10:21:08 it simplifies things 10:21:26 I440r: a single layer? 10:21:31 i disagree 10:21:38 perfection is always simple 10:21:44 Sometimes complexity is quite elegant. 10:21:48 adding complexity makes it imperfect 10:21:59 Adding unneeded complexity. 10:21:59 treyb yes. thats chuck moores philosophy. 10:22:03 a SINGLE layer 10:22:14 no "hardware layer" "driver layer" "application layer" 10:22:15 Chuck Moore is insane ;-) 10:22:27 no. he is a bit eccentric but not insane 10:22:35 People always say that. 10:22:38 but male what will your language have that cannot be expressed or experienced via the remaining senses? 10:22:40 i consider his extreeeeeeeeem to be prefereable to the industries 10:22:45 I would take his words with a grain of salt. 10:22:49 you have so far limited everything to speaking and hearing? 10:23:55 how about a language that has odour? (not talking about halitosis). 10:24:04 No, the imagination is been hitherto unused in society. I think that the perfect language might include hypnotic/emotional triggers (like music does now) that would allow people to communicate more abstract ideas. 10:24:19 to what end? 10:24:41 better sex! 10:24:44 YAY! 10:24:57 I'm not a philosopher. The end is a long way off. 10:25:27 Hell, just thing of what it would do for phone-sex alone! 10:25:33 s/thing/think 10:26:10 OK, let me get this straight. You want to improve the language by following completely unknown goals? 10:26:29 It just isn't the same. There should be a RE message that people can send into the channel to have the client apply to their last response. 10:27:10 this is all one needs to quote: http://www.newspaper.depauw.edu/story/2002/11/8/125034/848 10:27:13 The goal is to design a tool, that the human body/mind can't seem to do for itself. 10:27:13 just the first half :D 10:27:21 more tools? 10:27:24 more technology? 10:27:31 this sounds like the tunes project. 10:27:37 male are you familiar with tunes.org ? 10:28:00 That how I got here. 10:28:06 aaaah! 10:28:12 you sound like a tunes guy. 10:28:14 tunes is mostly vapor 10:28:29 No kidding. 10:28:30 but vapor is the substance of all 'abstract ideas'. 10:28:31 By the way, I don't know if you've noticed, but we do in fact have odour incorporated into the language: words like "rotten", "perfum", etc. The person's ability to convey odours is directly corospondent to their power of the language. 10:28:55 Fractal odor is very subjective. 10:29:00 it is easier to have samples. 10:29:22 All language is subjective. 10:29:24 so far, it has not being digitized. 10:29:44 Perhaps it shouldn't be. 10:29:46 I conducted a curious experiment with a friend in a pool the other day. 10:29:47 When I say "door" you implicity know what I mean. 10:30:08 when I say windows you automatically place it in several contexts. 10:30:09 BBS door game? 10:30:23 LORD? 10:30:27 Tradewars!? 10:30:34 anyway, do you know it is easier to hear a spoken word in water IF it is spoken outside of it first? 10:31:05 Exactly. If language weren't subjective, you'd lose the ability to make, um... clever puns like that, male. 10:31:09 You mean, if you know what the word is in advance? 10:31:17 yes. 10:31:38 * TreyB goes for lunch. 10:31:40 AND you hear it spoken in advance. 10:31:41 Have fun, Mr. Liles. 10:31:58 God, I'll try. 10:34:16 so what is the least evil programming language in your opinion? 10:34:35 forth 10:34:57 ;) yes i44o 10:35:02 most is evil is c because its brainwashed the entier fucking world 10:35:14 Yeah, forth. RPL. 10:35:19 C is a 'worse is better language'. 10:35:24 I really haven't seem a language that I like in a long time. 10:35:35 try setl sometime. 10:35:41 you *might* like it. 10:36:18 I was excited about TRAC2001... Until I realized that they were implementing it in Java. 10:36:31 trac is a toy language no? 10:36:56 Oh no, it was used quite a bit. It's a macro language.. So think of something like Awk. 10:37:21 As far as use goes, that is. 10:37:24 so why don't you create a CL based implementation? 10:37:36 or a forth based implementation? 10:37:44 That would be just like doing it in Java. 10:38:03 Forth maybe. But gernerally you don't implement a language in a better language. 10:38:09 You build up. 10:38:14 so why not just do it in X86 binary OR some RISC binary then? 10:38:17 So, C or Assembly. 10:38:18 will that be better? 10:38:34 No, because these days you have to be portable. 10:38:38 why? 10:38:51 you only have to be portable IF you wanna sell the language to a bunch of people. 10:38:56 So that what runs on this machine will also run on the one next to me. 10:39:13 is that not the beginning of ALL the worlds problems? one size fits all? 10:39:34 Yeah, but the place to solve it is at the bottom. 10:39:41 in binary? in the chip? 10:39:43 We need better chips. 10:39:53 what is the best chip so far then? 10:40:28 Although, when we get to the quantum level there will probably only be ONE way to make a computer, and that will kill the portability problem pretty quick. 10:41:02 Oh, I like the m68k. 10:41:19 But I wouldn't say it was anywhere close to perfect. 10:41:44 the m68k of yesteryear? 10:41:46 I think we've been on the wrong track long enough to destroy our ability to change. 10:41:47 what about the MIPS? 10:42:40 Actually, I think that processors should be extensible. And therefore I'd love to see a forth chip go mainstream. 10:42:54 isn't that what the TRansmeta is? 10:42:57 Crusoe? 10:43:00 I think that would work well with the sort of things that companies like Transmeta are doing. 10:43:10 Ha. Yes ;-) 10:43:31 so that would make it a RISC machine. 10:43:41 But again, it doesn't matter until it becomes the only option. 10:43:54 why must we have ONE standard? 10:44:00 Nothing can shine in the dim light of the crowd. 10:44:47 Perhaps not for everything, but for what we think of as a computer system there should be one chip at least. One bus. One memory. 10:45:23 The diversity is just creating conflict, and therefore wasting time. 10:45:34 there is already! 10:45:47 boolean logic! 10:45:51 Well good thing they didn't adopt that idea in the 50s. I'm kinda glad we're not using tubes anymore, frankly. 10:45:55 binary boolean logic to be precise. 10:46:12 I never said that things couldn't change.. 10:46:23 male the diversity is not a problem IMO. 10:46:28 We pretty much when from tubes one day to transistors the next. 10:46:44 There wasn't a competition. 10:46:49 the problem is that Man has found a new hammer and everything must become a nail. 10:47:20 True. I don't trust computers at all. I sure as hell don't want one controlling my toaster. 10:47:26 me too! 10:47:40 it sounds like a contradiction because I spend so much time playing with them. 10:47:50 I'm sure that's why you feel that way. 10:47:53 but the more I play the more I want to play, and the less I want it anywhere else. 10:48:22 I like lego, but I don't want a lego house to live in! 10:48:27 It's why I do. When you know what a clusterfuck the whole system is you can't help but be amazed that it works as often as it does. 10:48:38 or a lego car or a lego bike or anything other than toy lego. 10:48:51 male it works because worse is better. 10:49:05 also 10:49:15 reasons make it stable enough to work. 10:50:08 I wonder every day just how long it will last. 10:50:13 it will last. 10:50:26 it will break and get patched. 10:50:31 but there are willing patchers for the money. 10:50:44 Well, money corrupts any system. 10:50:55 the reason it works and lasts is that it is growable. 10:51:35 Not really, we have precious few scalable systems today. 10:51:46 Look at ipv4 vs ipv6. 10:51:53 Just throw some more bits at it. 10:52:24 That's been everyone's solution to the problems of computing for quite some time. 10:52:36 Everything will change once we go 16 bit! 10:52:44 We'll never use that address space! 10:53:13 male but thats the easiest solution. 10:53:27 In fact, a funny thing about forth is that its so extensible, and yet so un-scalable. 10:53:37 it is more difficult for instance to redesign a whole city, than to simply add more cars or put more buses on the road. 10:53:51 That doesn't make it right, though ;-) 10:54:12 You're just delaying the inevitable. 10:54:17 but it makes the populace think something has been done by their mayor! 10:54:21 its good for re-election. 10:54:58 why do you say forth isn't scaleable? 10:55:05 what makes it not so? 10:56:18 Well, that wasn't really fair of me to say because few languages are, but forth is un-scalable because it is so low level. You have to progam for the implementation. 10:57:01 Although, because of the way forth is used that rarely becomes a problem. 10:57:19 It may however be the reason that forth isn't used for much else. 10:57:32 btw have you dabbled in rebol? 10:58:52 Dabbled, yes. But I couldn't think of anything to use it for ;-) 10:59:07 Is it still closed-source? 10:59:41 I like the Inferno/Limbo design much better. 10:59:44 somewhat. 10:59:51 there are attempts to opensource it. 11:00:04 Limbo looks c-ish and that is offputting. 11:00:14 what do you like about it though? 11:00:15 And I just spoke with the Inferno team about their consideration of a new license! 11:00:39 in person? 11:00:44 Oh, well you don't have to use limbo. Limbo compiles to bytecode for the inferno virtual machine. 11:01:09 As though they would come to memphis ;-) 11:01:30 so via news: or irc I am guessing. 11:02:40 They made a public call for comment via the Inferno newsletter. If you have an opinion I urge you to contact them as well. 11:03:12 Being able to target inferno's virtual machine would almost be as good as having a new chip ;-) 11:04:01 inferno was meant to be a better unix no? 11:04:15 Inferno was meant to be a better Plan 9. 11:04:31 It is very far removed from unix. 11:04:50 (Although it does feel like unix from the user level) 11:04:52 ah Plan 9 was meant to be a better unix. 11:05:00 or what was meant to be? 11:07:14 so male, since you want a better chip.. 11:07:27 and all chips are essentially based on binary boolean logic. 11:07:34 are you going to find a way of changing that? 11:08:05 Well, no one has really been able to prove that binary logic is a problem. 11:08:16 I would like a chip without a clock, though. 11:08:26 what difference would that make? 11:08:42 how then would INTEL boast about magnificent speeds? 11:08:59 Faster, cleaner from a design perspective, and definately better power conservation. 11:09:10 faster? has anyone done this? 11:09:11 Ha. They'd just add letters to the name. 11:09:22 The new XPSMTVAR. 11:09:27 hahaha. 11:09:58 Yes, there are some async chips. In fact Intel made a few async 486s for their own evaluation. 11:10:04 methinks speed is not a problem. Driving miss daisy faster wouldn't make her any younger!!! 11:10:12 and what did they think? 11:10:59 They thought they were about twice as fast. There's no telling what made them stick with the clock. I think they didn't want to retrain their workers. 11:11:27 And all they did was the bare minimum to make an asynch chip. 11:12:35 I'll be damned if I can remember where the documents about it are, though. 11:12:53 google might help. 11:12:58 The point is, we certainly have the technology. 11:12:59 google: our collective memory. 11:14:08 you know, I bet they could easily create a tri-logic system since 'off' falls within a range and 'on' falls within another range. 11:14:17 but I don't think that would make things that much better. 11:15:15 ConfuciusSayMu: digital systems ARE trilogical : true. false. illegal 11:15:28 There have been some attempts to make tri-valent systems before as well, but I don't think it is a gain. Computers are concrete. Besides, it can be added easily at the language level. 11:15:28 hahaha 11:15:48 illegal. 11:16:30 ConfuciusSayMu: at least with hysteresis-free systems 11:16:36 You forgot Catch Fire. 11:18:35 i read something about intel working on packing 4 bits on one line, that is, working with 16 signal levels. 11:19:09 sooner or later we might have analog computers back:) 11:19:22 they always go back to what was. 11:20:07 Yes, but analog computation is slow. Too much data. 11:20:25 in the time of 8 or 16 bits, it seemed a good idea to represent two states on one line. now that 128bit cpus or even 256-bit cpus will come, some different solution may be necessary 11:21:10 or you find yourself having 0.1 % semiconductor real-estate, and 99.9% wiring 11:21:35 we will still program them in the same manner. 11:21:57 Aimlessly? 11:22:12 yep. to please the pointy-haired guy. 11:22:16 so, representing several bits by different signal levels is the most likely step 11:22:39 http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/async/ 11:23:09 ah SuN seems to be doing a lot of stuff about it as well. 11:24:13 Yeah, they just want a chip that can run java at a decent speed. 11:24:19 hahaha.. 11:24:23 bwahahahaaha 11:25:19 Ahh.. Coffee's ready. 11:27:48 Well, right now I'm trying to find some information on languages used to implement forth/-like systems and/or tricks/designs used to do it well in C. 11:28:13 c would be much better if it used 2 stacks 11:28:26 stop burying parameters under return addresses 11:28:29 some say C is already a stack based language 11:28:34 I've seen so many people writing token threaded forths in C that it makes me want to vomit. 11:28:48 male what would you want to say? 11:28:55 see. 11:28:57 not say. 11:29:02 ugh they arent forth 11:29:11 any so called forth coded in c is NOT forth 11:29:13 Oh, I won't know until I see it. 11:29:40