00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.01.09 00:00:30 --- nick: fgsggfhag -> Serg_Ghost 00:00:55 hey, can one kick Serg_Penguin ????? 00:01:49 damn, irc.freenode.net dunno respond 00:02:07 :) 00:02:40 and my nickserv login rotten :((( 00:03:50 it's _really_ _bad_ not to have human op in chan 00:05:14 you are wrong 00:05:47 lol 00:07:19 anyway 00:07:28 why did you paste your password in plain text? 00:08:26 hell knows, i was thinking it'll go to nickserv and not to chan 00:08:29 -sylk(me@dialup-39.175.220.203.acc01-geor-mor.comindico.com.au)- hmmm? 00:08:50 any-damn-way, i have to change it ... 00:09:22 * Serg_Ghost has ~10 passwords 4 not-so-important things 00:09:30 opesource account? 00:09:47 opesource ? 00:09:52 hahaha 00:10:19 -sylk(me@dialup-39.175.220.203.acc01-geor-mor.comindico.com.au)- don't put account info into channels 00:11:22 :)))) it was st00pid mistake 00:12:24 anyway, its only 4 ghost-kick purpose 00:12:54 we are no warez-doodz and won't say bad things under nick of another man 00:13:06 whats a soko? 00:13:12 sokoban game 00:13:37 ah. you have a one line sokoban game? 00:13:57 no, written in one-line words 00:14:25 after reading some stuff from ultratech 00:14:35 it was WOW xperience ! 00:16:43 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:17:14 --- nick: Serg_Ghost -> Serg_Penguin 00:19:37 for one my mail account, passwd is on support bboard, and it still works, no one complained about crap sent from my name 00:20:46 i was thinking web form is mailed to support men, but it was bboarded 00:28:29 what soko? 00:32:23 logic game, push all boxes to places 00:32:27 in a maze 00:32:57 like boulderdash without the boulders :) 00:33:06 maybe 00:33:54 maybe will make RPG of this style - kind alike turn-based Diablo w/ ansi-art gfx 00:34:28 or just write an ascii version of quake... oh wait that's been done :) 00:36:30 3d shooters are not my kind, i'm just running frag in them 00:36:59 i'm good at WWII air combat 00:37:00 ah, another deadmeat player 00:37:13 DEADBEEF !!! 00:37:43 only games I play are warcraftII and xkobo and linux 00:38:33 RTS are _bad_ _thing_ 00:38:36 at least on the computer anyway 00:38:53 any game what needs fast good rat is Bad Thing 00:39:26 fast frame rate you mean? 00:39:35 fast mouse 00:40:40 naaah. its good to wipe out someone's villages at high speed with berserking ogres 00:41:55 'if one needs good mouse, he has mouse brain' - was said about GUI, but applies to gamez as well 00:43:02 (but rat may serve as poor man's CAD aid) 00:43:52 don't need mouse for autocad. it helps though 00:43:58 tablets are cheaping rapidly.... 00:45:59 or mirror + sensitive lightpen, to avoid gorilla arm, or just horizontal screen 00:46:46 lightpens mean you are glued to screen. not good. causes shortsightedness 00:48:19 GNUPLOT and POVRAY rulez, and no rats :) 00:49:23 I use autocad because thats what some of our clients use. so... non issue. 00:49:44 well, rat is OK 4 gfx, but please no GUIs and spinal games... 00:51:00 once, i was carrying 3 man-weeks of work on rat pointer, and dropped it to wrong place coz bad button 00:51:01 :P each to their own 00:51:30 it was disASSter =8-{z} 00:51:34 of course: 3 manweeks = 1 womanweek 00:52:42 it was printing house, stupid work - clearing fotos after drum scanner 00:53:06 700M ram mac's in 98 00:53:18 3k$ color-adjusted crt's, etc 00:54:58 brb 00:55:06 data was recovered, some from workstations, some from tapes, but i was punished like it was really lost 00:55:35 --- quit: sylk () 01:01:16 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 01:08:32 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 01:31:34 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 01:39:22 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 01:58:12 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 02:20:12 --- join: sylk (bucket@dialup-39.175.220.203.acc01-geor-mor.comindico.com.au) joined #forth 02:21:16 --- quit: sylk (Remote closed the connection) 02:25:43 --- join: sylk (bucket@dialup-39.175.220.203.acc01-geor-mor.comindico.com.au) joined #forth 02:26:31 --- part: sylk left #forth 02:46:17 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 03:09:01 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 03:21:24 --- quit: lament ("Non sunt in celi quia fuccant uuiuys of heli") 03:30:41 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 06:33:42 --- join: flyfly (~marekb@mail.melzer.cz) joined #forth 06:36:09 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:37:04 --- join: skylan (sjh@207.164.213.111) joined #forth 06:37:27 hi 06:42:40 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 07:37:46 --- join: onetom_ (~tom@ingatlanok.ktv.tiszanet.hu) joined #forth 07:38:21 --- quit: onetom_ (Client Quit) 09:25:25 --- join: rafe (~rafe@www.scinq.org) joined #forth 09:26:41 --- join: onetom_ (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 09:27:08 --- quit: onetom (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:33:20 amazon.con, of course, has all of forth book on backorder so newbie question follow 09:33:55 1) memory allocation... how does on normally handle garbage collection 09:34:31 is it typically the programmer's responsiblitiy or are there common words that I haven't stumbled onto yet? 09:35:20 either's fine but I'm trying to figure out normal usage 09:37:15 i'll start with that rather than just pepper everyone's screen too much 10:01:25 --- join: Stepan (~stepan@Charybdis.suse.de) joined #forth 10:01:27 re 10:03:18 ha 10:03:25 'morning 10:31:27 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:53:16 --- join: I440r (~mark4@sdn-ap-031tnnashP0016.dialsprint.net) joined #forth 11:01:15 --- join: lament (~lament@h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net) joined #forth 11:04:45 Hey. 11:04:52 hi 11:12:21 hi 11:17:17 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 11:31:00 --- join: mur (ammu@baana-62-165-187-6.phnet.fi) joined #forth 11:33:32 ! 11:33:50 ? 11:34:52 :) 11:35:00 * mur is surprised 11:35:07 at what ? 11:35:31 you 11:35:55 why ? :) 11:37:35 ! was slightly out of context to me because i arrived out of blue 11:38:59 it wasnt out of context, it was a greeting - of sorts 11:38:59 heh 11:39:07 ! 11:39:29 vocabulary not installed -- unknown keyword 11:40:09 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:42:46 rafe: r u still here? 11:42:51 --- nick: onetom_ -> onetom 11:43:37 yup 11:43:50 rafe: u were about 2 say sg 2 me about flux 11:43:58 2days b4? roughly 11:44:07 yup 11:44:25 argh! PLZ R U Msgng 2 Me? 11:44:34 you 11:44:37 yup 11:46:32 heheh 11:51:59 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 11:53:42 :silence ; 11:55:33 (hmm) 11:56:02 yea 11:56:12 ... 11:57:30 eclipsis 12:01:18 * Kitanin decides he shouldn't be coding in FORTH and COBOL at the same time. 12:01:26 lol 12:01:33 not in the same source file i hope :) 12:01:59 No. But, it does lead to surreal things like that question I asked yesterday. :-) 12:02:22 which question ? 12:02:25 perhaps you shouldn't be coding in COBOL, period? :) 12:02:51 The one about writing code to write code to create execution vectors. The one you posted to c.l.f. 12:03:14 Well, yes, lament, but I can't find anyone to pay me for the FORTH yet. :-D 12:03:55 aha right 12:04:02 did the code i posted help you btw ? 12:05:07 Honestly, I didn't read your post past the grumbling about POSTPONE. :-) But, I did scrap all the code I had from yesterday in favour of the obvious solution. 12:05:37 postpone is a limp wristed name for a word 12:05:49 True dat. 12:05:50 thers NOTHING wrong with "compile" and "[compile]" 12:06:03 look at the code :P 12:06:28 --- quit: mur ("Changing Servers") 12:06:30 --- join: mur (ammu@baana-62-165-187-6.phnet.fi) joined #forth 12:07:57 i can dcc you the sources if you like (assuming dcc works :) 12:09:21 Eww. No dcc for me, please. :-) 12:10:57 "sorry, i dont take DCCs when parents are around" 12:11:38 i dont dcc pr0n :) 12:11:57 shoudl you? 12:11:59 unless you count macro : definitions as pr0ngraphic :) 12:12:08 baudrillard would 12:13:14 Hey... Can't 12 year old kids don't play online chess without parental permission in the U.S.? 12:13:28 depends on the parent 12:14:09 I mean.. 12:14:12 * Kitanin welcomes Robert in from left field... 12:14:30 When I registered at freechess.org, they make me promisse that I'm 13 or above. 12:14:35 (Or have permission from parents). 12:14:51 Kitanin: j00 call me a commie, eh?@$#! 12:15:59 Ah. All online registration requires that disclaimer over here, Robert. :-) And no, I wasn't calling you a commie. 12:16:18 Hey - a Robert is never serious. 12:16:33 That was my trollish way of saying "huh - left field?" 12:17:24 Robert-troll 12:17:39 Yes. 12:17:53 ``That came from outta left field.'' is a common way of saying ``What? Where'd _that_ come from?'' over here. :-) 12:18:11 Oh. 12:18:25 Robert you come out from the blue! 12:18:38 * Robert just...entered teh cyberspaece. 12:18:39 Asking about chess! 12:18:44 Hehe. 12:19:05 Well, I don't usually play chess with anyone older than 5 years below my age. 12:19:20 And I've never played over the internet. 12:19:21 Mind you, given that the newsgroup has mostly been about creationism for the past two weeks, I suppose discussing FORTH is starting to seem like being off-topic. 12:19:41 Heh. 12:19:56 Comments like that make me avoid c.l.f. 12:20:11 Robert's comment still goes on, he is pasting forth source code, see ;) 12:21:34 i ignored all those posts 12:23:06 Well, I440r, it was that, or the posts about ``Minimal Forth Recipies''... AAAAAAAH! RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY! 12:23:56 Kitanin that forth code looks quite alright, but i coudl not execute it.. :P 12:24:22 That was I440r's code. Mine was even uglier. :-) 12:24:45 couldnt execute what code ? 12:25:20 execute : Well, I440r, it was that, or the posts about ``Minimal Forth Recipies''... AAAAAAAH! RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY! 12:25:44 forth error : the - unknown vocabulary 12:25:49 AAAAH! RUN AWAY! mur is a bloody finn! 12:25:49 ok 12:25:56 Hey, what now? 12:25:57 IsForth could execute it. 12:26:13 Robert you have declared yourself as keyword! 12:26:26 what does Robert contain? :) 12:26:28 It's kernel is bloated enough to contain several personal insults! 12:26:29 * mur is curious 12:26:32 Its* 12:26:45 I contain...food. 12:26:47 Now be quiet. 12:28:32 isforths kernel isnt bloated 12:28:51 its extensions might be but ther are mostly optionable 12:29:10 Hey - I'm kidding. I defined "AAAAH! RUN AWAY!" myself. ;) 12:34:35 but what's the joke? 12:35:37 I don't make funny jokes. I make joke to cause confusion and get people upset. 12:35:40 jokes* 12:35:56 ``Welcome to the Forth Cooking Channel. Ask for our minimal forth recipes!'' 12:35:57 * rafe tries to define this... 12:36:06 : AAAAH!RUN_AWAY! cr ." Coward!" cr ; 12:36:21 it works! 12:36:27 * rafe is sooo proud 12:38:10 ok, not funny either 12:45:34 I'll try this ?? again... 12:45:52 how is garbage collection normally handled in forth? 12:46:05 programmer chore? 12:46:46 its not 12:46:54 Well, I programmed a robot to do it. Does that count? 12:47:25 well... did you do it in 4fh? 12:47:32 Yes. :-) 12:47:42 guess so then. 12:48:19 I440r, so it just stays there && 12:48:28 I have to reuse the buffers? 12:49:20 I can deal, was just curious 12:49:28 --- nick: mur -> MUR|2001Space 12:49:31 no. thers no need for garbage collection because theres no garbage 12:49:39 ?? 12:49:57 I apperently need to refactor 12:50:13 ? 12:50:51 my 1st real proggie has a few temp globals 12:51:18 --- join: Speuler (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba470c.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 12:52:06 i dont even understand what garbage collection is. 12:52:16 but what ever it is, forth doesnt need it :P 12:52:48 lol: ok... I need to retool 12:53:59 Hmm... Does isforth have a heap, I440r? 12:54:00 dont understand what you mean. retool ? 12:54:10 Kitanin: define heap 12:54:16 retool = rewrite in this case 12:54:32 'day 12:55:42 heap = dynamically allocated space not on stack 12:55:46 * rafe flinches 12:56:17 it has code space and header space. it also gives YOU the ability to allocate blocks of memory yourself 12:56:34 Kitanin: it doesn't have a heap in the traditional sense, as long you don't add one 12:56:35 it CAN therfore have what you would consider heap 12:56:43 what he said :) 12:56:53 you CAN however dynamically allocate 12:56:59 but not release out-of-order 12:57:13 so it's block by block that's useful for me to know 12:57:27 this order thing is a ... challenge for me thos 12:58:20 Kitanin: ansi forth HAS a heap however 12:58:33 another reason to SHUN it 12:58:39 ok 12:58:40 read about "allocate" and "release" 12:59:05 I know, but I wasn't sure how familiar with it I440r was, which makes explaining GC trickier. :-) 12:59:30 ah 12:59:30 thanks... will do ... the amazon.con folks are too slow on the books 13:00:13 hence the pesky ??s 13:01:07 I440r: imagine, you open a window. text mode will do. you save the screen background. 13:01:14 you open another window 13:01:17 maybe a third 13:01:26 now you want to close the first window 13:01:38 dont need to save it. its in its own window buffer. 13:01:49 and release the memory, occupied by copied windows data 13:01:56 and the display would be updated using either a painters or reverse painters 13:02:01 how would you make the memory reusable again ? 13:02:10 close the window 13:02:40 you chain or whatever the free blocks? 13:02:52 so there's a say 20x20 char size mem chunk available 13:02:58 no. i do no memory management at all 13:03:06 i leave that to my BIOS (linux :) 13:03:18 handy on stand-alone machines :) 13:03:58 so you're calling malloc? 13:04:07 yes and no 13:04:14 im calling sys mmap 13:04:19 which is what malloc does 13:04:24 yes... 13:04:40 that's what "allocate" with ansi does too 13:04:42 isforth doesnt use any external libs 13:04:47 on linux implementations 13:04:53 tats the ONLY way to allocate memory in linux. 13:05:00 other than brk 13:05:08 which just expands the block yo already own 13:05:26 ALL memory allocation in linux is done via anonymous memory mappings 13:06:04 you shun it, because it is ansi, use it with isforth, but won't consider having forth do mem management ? 13:06:29 i AM considering it - rejecting it for now 13:06:36 sounds not like a contradiction to me 13:06:38 mmm... i've done a ton of mmap()s & there is still some "managing" to be done 13:06:42 more like a contraTRICtion 13:07:06 ans isnt forth 13:07:14 true 13:07:25 t'is a comitee 13:07:31 no 13:07:36 "ans forth" isnt forth 13:07:39 t'is a set of standards 13:07:40 PERIOD 13:08:01 the standard says ans forth is forth 13:08:23 who am i to argue ? 13:08:29 so if i put a sign on my dog calling it a cat my dog is now a cat ? 13:08:30 :) 13:08:53 if your the standards comitee, yes 13:09:16 somebody has called a dog a dog in the first place 13:09:23 the ans forth standard comittee ISNT the forth standard committee 13:09:26 he could have called it cat 13:09:49 chuck moore is the forth standard comittee 13:09:53 or elephant 13:10:23 he made the language specs public domain 13:10:54 "the ans forth standard does not descrive the forth language but a language of the same name" 13:11:16 that's what people probably scared away 13:11:29 ok. if the ans forth comittee has the right to call THEIR forth "the" standard - then i say that anything that isnt isforth isnt forth 13:11:42 im the isforth standard comittee and my word is final :) 13:11:55 sorry if the actual INVENTOR of the language disagrees.... 13:12:36 there's standard by wrote, and de facto standard (by convention) 13:12:45 where the 2nd is not really a standard 13:13:09 such as f79 13:13:12 or fig 13:13:14 a standard can call itself a standard sure. the ans forth standard IS a standard 13:13:20 that STILL doesnt make it Forth 13:13:36 * Kitanin thinks he preferred the argument over creationism in the newsgroup. 13:14:01 we got three standards here 13:14:09 yours included 13:14:13 but only ONE forth :) 13:14:17 excluding mine :) 13:14:24 colorforth :) 13:14:31 :) 13:14:43 by mr chuck moore 13:14:50 i dont think chuck would like my forht - at least not the way it currently is 13:14:54 the only person to call a forth forth 13:14:57 bah 13:15:10 if i accomplish all i have planned he might like it more :) 13:16:05 why ? 13:17:03 it will be less bloated - more minimal but with a HELL of alot of options he doesnt need to load :) 13:17:23 alot of what is currently NOT optionable will become so 13:18:05 i wonder whether mr moore likes x86. 13:18:10 actually, i doubt 13:18:12 that 13:18:38 Heh. 13:19:05 i wonder if ANYONE does 13:19:10 so i wonder whether he could like a forth which is x86-bound 13:19:13 besides microfucked i mean 13:19:43 And Intel/AMD's marketing department. 13:20:00 hmm 13:20:06 lots of consumer like the fact that pcs are reasonably cheap 13:20:10 Well, colorforth is currently x86-bound. :-) 13:20:10 hey c'mon... x86 is a stack machine withe 4 local variables that are practically unusable 13:21:00 but that's not by virtue of the cpu 13:21:09 as intel cpus tend to be expensive 13:21:15 --- nick: MUR|2001Space -> MUR|2001SpaceOdy 13:21:45 colorforth has been declared as dead end 13:22:07 or was it ... 13:22:16 (i might mix up tow things here) 13:22:20 two 13:22:40 yes, indeed 13:24:12 which x window manager are the most popular ones nowadays ? 13:24:32 bloated ones 13:24:42 skip kde and gnome please 13:24:53 one of the remaining ones 13:24:58 windowmaker 13:25:15 Well, KDE and GNOME aren't window managers, so that should be easy. 13:25:23 ok 13:25:41 kwm is 13:25:50 part of kde 13:25:55 Yes. :-) 13:26:34 how's sawfish scoring nowadays ? 13:27:08 * Speuler can't make up his mind what wm to run 13:32:38 Speuler: I love blackbox 13:33:02 it's really small and fast and has no schnickschnack 13:33:15 I love KDE 13:33:27 it's really big and slow and has lots of schnichschnack 13:34:01 *g* 13:34:30 i have abandoned kde, was using it a while ago 13:34:46 am about to abandon gnome now 13:34:58 been running icewm for quite a while on notebook 13:35:05 windowaker!!! - gnome and kde have the look and feel of m$ windows. and they GPF just as often 13:35:12 don't like enlightenment so such 13:35:24 i don't understand wmaker 13:36:00 occasionaly i use rxvt as wm 13:36:12 ahem 13:36:27 doesn't do its ob well 13:36:33 especially the moving-arond part 13:36:46 ob=job 13:36:49 arond=around 13:37:15 don't like fvwm 13:37:43 there no such thing as workplace shell yet 13:37:56 enlightenment is too phat 13:37:58 but it looks good 13:37:59 :) 13:38:15 what dont youunderstand about windowmaker ? 13:38:18 one gets fed up quickly with enlightenment 13:38:36 what to do with those bracket thinks on screen 13:38:40 things 13:38:46 bracket things ? 13:38:47 or how to create a new desktop item 13:39:04 those which attract your icons 13:39:14 launch the probram - if it doesnt create a app-icon you can force it to do so sometimes 13:39:25 theres the dock and the clip 13:39:37 anything you dock to the "dock" stays there no matter which desktop you are in 13:39:56 those that you dock to the clip are only visible on the clip when you are in the right desktop 13:39:59 Stepan: blackbox is the one with the hexagonal menu ? 13:40:15 so you can clip games to the clip on your desktop you reserved for games 13:40:31 blackbox is good too but i prefer windowmaker 13:48:15 So, what's wrong with twm? :-) 13:51:33 was thinking 'bout that 13:51:45 but i don't like the way it looks 13:52:09 i dont like it at all heh 13:54:05 blackbox looks not bad 13:54:22 windowmaker is better 13:54:32 does bb have pinable menus / 13:54:32 Stepan: how do you create destop items ? 13:54:33 ? 13:54:43 by launching the program 13:55:03 no pinnable menus afaik 13:55:28 stepan: it has 13:55:42 just left click title bat 13:55:43 bar 13:55:49 blackboox borrows alot from windowmaker 13:56:01 you detach and pin a menu that way 13:56:05 Speuler: desktop _items_? what do you mean? like icons on the desktop? 13:56:11 yes 13:56:24 Speuler: but you can not have multiple of them sitting at several positions 13:56:39 there are apps for that 13:57:12 forgot their names 13:57:25 i's need one of those then 14:00:45 just found a way to create desktop items by drag and drop 14:00:50 with blackbox 14:00:55 by using dfm 14:01:17 (which is a tiny file manager) 14:01:57 can pick an item from a directory, and move it to the desktop 14:03:10 --- quit: TreyB () 14:03:30 they stay there also after i quit dfm 14:04:40 no, not quite. they stay there also after the dfm window has been closed 14:04:47 but dfm is still running then 14:08:22 program launches can be created too 14:08:26 launchers 14:12:04 there's bbtools.. some small utilities.. one side bar which can include wmaker applets and such 14:18:40 --- join: Speuler_ (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba470c.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 14:19:12 full-screening a window under blackbox stretches it across both screens ('m running dual-head, xinerama) 14:19:20 that's not so nice... 14:19:51 --- quit: Speuler () 14:20:35 --- nick: Speuler_ -> Speuler 14:22:58 --- quit: Stepan ("I like core dumps") 14:26:28 --- quit: Speuler (Remote closed the connection) 14:26:40 --- join: knoppix (~knoppix@67.97.122.21) joined #forth 14:26:46 --- nick: knoppix -> gilbertbsd 14:29:58 --- join: marekb (~marekb@a24-133.dialup.iol.cz) joined #forth 14:30:41 lotsa ppl :) 14:30:46 mostly idle :P 14:32:06 not idle. 14:32:09 just lurking :D 14:40:06 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:41:49 yea rite :P 14:47:26 --- part: gilbertbsd left #forth 14:47:51 --- join: nizchka (~nizchka@node-c-bad4.a2000.nl) joined #forth 14:48:40 --- part: nizchka left #forth 14:55:53 back 14:56:34 Hi onetom :) 14:58:51 oh - he dide a flyby and i missed him heh 14:59:10 i was chatting with him on irc.stealth.net just now :) 14:59:20 nizchka that is 14:59:45 * fridge lurks in an idle fashion 15:00:45 so whats new :P 15:12:44 --- nick: MUR|2001SpaceOdy -> mur 15:15:07 --- join: Forth (~Forth@sdn-ap-031tnnashP0016.dialsprint.net) joined #forth 15:15:12 :) 15:16:53 --- quit: marekb (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 15:18:18 * Robert idles in a forthish way. 15:18:24 how? 15:18:45