00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.01.06
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00:35:54 <sylk> wow my questions about minimal forth have made it into the topic
00:38:17 <Robert> Heh.
00:38:23 <Robert> Feel honored. ;)
00:48:04 * sylk feels honoured. Honoured is not amused.
00:54:27 <Robert> Code some Forth, and you'll feel better.
00:55:40 * sylk is pondering DTC versus ITC and not feeling any wiser.
00:57:02 <Robert> DTC, unless you have a special reason.
00:57:10 <Robert> Maybe even STC? :)
00:57:45 * Robert starts remembering stuff.
00:57:50 <Robert> You do have a special reason :P
00:58:33 <Robert> I guess ITC is a bit easier to understand... if you're using it as an example of how a Forth works?
01:00:21 <sylk> basically
01:00:58 <sylk> STC seems to be a step just before the optimiser kicks in. 
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01:03:16 <sylk> DTC seems better for "unoptimised" implementation (ie run it from where it is and it will work reasonably well)
01:03:56 <sylk> ITC seems better for getting things started. ("How do I implement Forth?" kind of level)
01:04:09 <onetom> Robert: hey, brother, have u seen sean? he was here! :)
01:04:20 <Robert> I started with DTC, and it's really not much harder.
01:04:25 <Robert> onetom: Err..sean? :)
01:04:30 * Robert memory corru...
01:10:55 <onetom> Robert: sean pringle, the author of enth & flux
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01:11:58 <Robert> Oh. Nice! :)
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05:07:18 <XeF4> sylk: are you really sean pringle?
05:07:45 <Robert> Er. onetom was talking about someone else, I think.
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05:21:46 * sylk is a meat popsicle
05:33:34 <sylk> XeF4: why?
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05:41:50 <XeF4> sylk: just wondering if Sean (you?) had any plans to keep it alive
05:42:01 <XeF4> s/it/enth/
05:44:01 <sylk> I didn't think enth is dead... 
05:44:31 * sylk sniffs enth... "Hmmm colourful but not too smelly"
05:45:17 <XeF4> not yet, but the editor has some nasty open wounds
05:48:31 <sylk> like?
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06:13:24 <sylk> which open wounds most offend you?
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06:25:04 <Robert> Hi tathi. wakojun.
06:27:39 <XeF4> sylk: the system crashes when one moves the cursor off the end of a block
06:29:14 <sylk> oh that one :) don't do it
06:36:38 <sylk> I am not Sean Pringle
06:41:12 * Robert hands XeF4 block -4.
06:41:31 <Robert> Full of useful...random data.
06:41:36 <XeF4> sylk: your Sean suit is poking out from your back pocket
06:42:42 <Robert> XeF4 is seeing Seans everywhere.
06:43:06 * sylk used to have a horse called Shawn if that helps ?
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06:46:58 <sylk> xef4: the clothes I'm wearing don't have a back pocket
07:03:37 --- nick: Speuler_ -> Speuler
07:03:56 <Speuler> 'morning
07:03:58 <Robert> Morning
07:03:58 <Robert> brb
07:06:08 <tathi> Speuler: you do some sort of web hosting/server stuff, don't you?
07:20:55 <onetom> hi
07:21:24 <onetom> XeF4: 01-06 08:47:47 -!- greyarea [~sean@wdcax4-004.dialup.optusnet.com.au] has left
07:21:27 <onetom>           #forth []
07:21:49 <sylk> see?!
07:24:54 <onetom> XeF4: what version hangs @ the end of blks?
07:25:25 <Speuler> tathi: yes
07:25:50 <Speuler> tathi: running several rented servers
07:28:45 <tathi> Speuler: we've had a couple of hardware failures this year with one or the other of our servers
07:28:56 <tathi> Speuler: just wondering if you've seen that kind of thing happening often
07:29:14 <tathi> or if we just have bad luck or cheap hardware or something...
07:29:15 <Speuler> what kind of failures ?
07:29:34 <tathi> one hard-drive went, had a RAM card go bad last week
07:30:04 <Speuler> nothing of that kind has happened here
07:35:01 <XeF4> onetom: 0.3 haven't used it for ages
07:35:19 <XeF4> 0.3?, even
07:36:00 <onetom> aaaah, thats way 2 old :)
07:36:22 <onetom> 04 is a very nice rebuild
07:36:33 <onetom> in many aspects
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07:56:10 <I440r> hi ppl
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07:58:25 <sylk> hi
07:58:32 <I440r> :)
07:58:39 <I440r> got all the terminfo stuff working now :)
07:58:44 <I440r> including keypresses
07:59:00 <I440r> but theres certain keys missing from terminfo definitions and its realy DUMB that they are missing
07:59:18 <I440r> for instance. theres a format string for a shifted cursor left and right but NOT for shifted cursor up or down
07:59:20 <I440r> weird eh
07:59:57 <Robert> Hey there.
08:00:01 <Robert> Hrm
08:00:06 <I440r> i gotta do a new release for isforth soon,
08:00:09 <Robert> Yay :)
08:00:15 <I440r> i want to fix the text user interface first tho
08:00:20 <Robert> Hrm
08:00:27 <onetom> I440r: grats! :)
08:00:27 <Robert> I should play some with IsForth.
08:00:29 <I440r> and i STILL haventfinished that resolver part i promised heh
08:00:42 <I440r> yers. you should :P
08:00:42 <Robert> Need to write a Forth compiler...
08:00:57 <Robert> So I should check how to use files.
08:01:13 <I440r> use files ?
08:01:35 <Robert> Erm. You shouldn't make users have to look up the constant O_WRITE or whatever it's called themselves :P
08:01:47 <Speuler> robert: i'm just struggling writing a small forth kernel using c ...
08:01:53 <Speuler> wanna help ?
08:02:11 * Speuler ducks
08:02:11 <I440r> im NOT fucking defining 23784965293745697823654927836459273645 different #defines for all teh dumbass values people need
08:02:24 <I440r> heh
08:02:31 <Speuler> hi I440r
08:02:35 <I440r> c eh :P
08:02:49 <Speuler> first non-trivial program i write using c :)
08:02:54 <Robert> Speuler: C Forth? Erm... I don't think I could help with anything that you can't fix.
08:03:04 <Speuler> i oubt 
08:03:06 <Speuler> doubt
08:03:12 <Robert> I440r: Bah.
08:03:13 * Speuler is worthless in c
08:03:23 <I440r> no. its c thats worthless
08:03:24 <Robert> I440r: You don't have to include ALL kernel constant.
08:03:32 <Robert> I440r: Maybe the 10-20 people actually use :P
08:03:46 <sylk> hehehe I440r is a big fan of C :)
08:03:52 <I440r> if i start including any now it will be the start of a long downhill slide for isforth
08:04:00 <I440r> if you need to know. man read man write 
08:04:02 <I440r> :P
08:04:24 <Speuler> i got something like a virtual machine together now
08:04:26 <Robert> Bah.
08:04:35 <Robert> When will IsForth be self-compiling?
08:04:38 <Speuler> just trying to get a model hi-level word running
08:04:43 <Robert> Hm.
08:04:56 <Robert> It'd be interesting to write a Pascal Forth.
08:05:07 <Robert> Then I could port it to my CP/M computer :)
08:05:09 <Speuler> t'is a byte- and word-code forth kernel
08:05:15 <Robert> Where Pascal is about the only way to code stuff.
08:05:48 <Speuler> meant as base for a free open firmware lookalike
08:06:17 <Robert> Why in C?
08:06:34 <Speuler> cause i got a c compiler for ipaq, running on the ipaq
08:06:57 <Speuler> and because i'm rubbish in writing c
08:07:13 <sylk> plenty of forths written in C
08:07:24 <I440r> who was that wakojun guy ?
08:07:30 <Speuler> sure. plenty of forth for x86 too
08:07:39 <I440r> sylk no there are NO forths written in c
08:07:49 <I440r> there are alot of Forthwannabe's written in c
08:07:55 <sylk> lol
08:07:55 <Robert> Heh.
08:08:01 <sylk> cabbage
08:08:04 <Robert> I440r: Is there ANY forth except Pygmy and IsForth? :P
08:08:19 <I440r> sure
08:08:23 <Speuler> perry/laxen
08:08:36 <Speuler> swift
08:08:45 <Speuler> eforth
08:08:58 <Speuler> fpc
08:09:04 <Speuler> pcforth
08:09:22 <I440r> i never used pcforth
08:09:34 <Speuler> does not mean it doesn't exist
08:09:39 <Speuler> i used pcforth
08:09:42 <Robert> Only ITC and DTC counts, eh?
08:10:33 <sylk> any of those STC?
08:10:33 * Speuler wonders how it ITC looks like on a 256bit machine
08:10:39 <I440r> robert that is correct and dtc is always prefereable imho
08:10:48 <I440r> itc only has application in a harvard architecture
08:10:54 <I440r> a TRUE harvard architecture
08:11:00 <I440r> like 8051
08:11:16 <Speuler> dtc is less portable
08:11:19 * Speuler ducks again
08:11:29 <Robert> STC is easier to optimize!
08:11:33 * Robert hides.
08:11:35 <I440r> portable is a myth anyway
08:11:44 <Speuler> strange
08:11:56 <sylk> "Portability is for canoes" - Microsoft
08:12:02 <Speuler> cause recently i compiled a forth (c written) which was written for PPC
08:12:07 <Speuler> sorry, for alpha
08:12:16 <Speuler> and it worked on my x86 box
08:12:20 <sylk> I think portability is worthwhile.
08:12:27 <Speuler> did it run by application of myth ?
08:12:39 <Robert> I think we shouldn't invent a new standard for each product :P
08:12:48 <Robert> Then everything would be "portable".
08:12:58 <sylk> I have written apps that compile on linux and windows (opengl based). its no myth :)
08:13:03 <Speuler> can we apply myth to isforth so it runs on alpha ?
08:13:13 <I440r> #ifdefine linux 
08:13:15 <I440r> lotsa code
08:13:19 <I440r> #ifdefine windows
08:13:28 <I440r> lotsa code to do the same as teh above
08:13:33 <I440r> portable code is BULLSHIT
08:13:42 <I440r> an absolute 100% crock of shit
08:13:43 <sylk> just rip out the x86 assembly and replace with PPC.
08:13:44 <Speuler> there may be a difference between "porting to another cpu" and "porting to another os"
08:14:11 <Speuler> when saying "porting", i think "cpu"
08:14:17 <Speuler> not "os"
08:14:30 <Robert> Hey.. porting from DOS to Linux can be quite a job ;)
08:17:43 <Robert> I440r: When will the new IsForth be released?
08:18:02 <I440r> dunno. want to fix the curses type TUI first
08:18:09 <Robert> Aww.
08:18:28 <I440r> want to use it with my block file editor
08:18:49 <I440r> which wont be in the next release :P
08:19:00 <I440r> but in the one after next
08:19:07 <Robert> 1.11 :)
08:19:34 <I440r> ive rewritten find, modified the directory tree, fixed a few bugs, FOUND a new one which i have absolutely no idea how to fix (launch isforth and press control 7)
08:19:47 <I440r> ive added block files and a decompiler
08:21:27 <Robert> "find"?
08:21:30 <Robert> What's that?
08:21:54 <I440r> yes. find is what searches the dictionary
08:22:02 <I440r> bl word find  <--
08:22:32 <Robert> What does bl do?
08:22:51 <I440r> the existing code was a bit kludgy after i added a switch for case sensative or not
08:22:53 <I440r> bl is a space
08:22:58 <I440r> a BLank
08:23:10 <I440r> $20 const bl
08:23:55 <I440r> tho it might actually be a "constant" in isforth too. 
08:24:01 <I440r> it should probably be a const
08:24:47 <Robert> Hrm. Well, in what files do you deal with writing to files?
08:25:48 <I440r> files.f
08:25:59 <I440r> shows how to open close read and write
08:26:10 <I440r> thers things that should realy be in there but CANT be
08:26:30 <Robert> Er..what?
08:26:33 <I440r> like the memory mapping of files. that HAS to be in the kernel itself not an extension because the kernel memory maps source files
08:26:56 <I440r> fload foo.f  
08:27:02 <I440r> forthg memory maps foo.f
08:27:33 <Robert> Can't see any files.f file...
08:27:44 <I440r> i cant put the memory mapping words in the file.f extension where i think they belong
08:28:07 <I440r> erm it might be file.f :P
08:28:55 <Robert> No...
08:29:11 <Robert> fsave.f?
08:29:23 <I440r> yes
08:29:27 <Robert> OKay, thanks.
08:29:31 <I440r> you just dont have it yet
08:29:31 <I440r> heh
08:30:02 <I440r> i must have given file.f to some people early, i guess THATS in the next release proper too
08:30:13 <Robert> Hey... (fsave) is 2.5 pages! :P
08:31:10 <Robert> Er... I got the snapshot from Speuler's page.
08:31:25 <I440r> because thers alot of elf tables shit in there
08:31:34 <Speuler> i'm off. need to rescue a harddisk
08:31:34 <I440r> snapshot ?
08:31:58 <Robert> Well... ask Speuler where he got it from.. I guess you sent it (or put it somewhere on your ftp)
08:32:40 <I440r> file.f ?
08:33:25 <Robert> Nah, the tarball I have.
08:33:34 <Speuler> still here, just ...
08:33:35 <Robert> 1.09b with some additional stuff, like blocks
08:33:56 <I440r> oh
08:34:07 <I440r> oooh!!
08:34:12 <Robert> OOOOH!!!
08:34:15 <Robert> What?
08:34:16 <Speuler> oh ?
08:34:18 <I440r> well that should have file.f too then
08:34:28 <I440r> the blocks stuff i have might be different from what you have
08:34:28 <I440r> thats a pre-release :)
08:34:30 * Robert can't see anything... where should it be?
08:34:38 <Speuler> that's the stuff i ftp'd from i440r's machine
08:34:48 <Robert> Yes, a leet Beta Alpha Release Candidate Platinum(tm).
08:34:58 <I440r> yea, bug fixes, changes to accomodate things
08:35:08 <I440r> correct
08:35:17 <Speuler> I440r: i asked you whether making it public was ok
08:35:19 <I440r> use of that might explode your cat :)
08:35:33 <Speuler> was that wrong ?
08:36:53 <I440r> it is ok
08:37:00 <Speuler> robert: file.f is in directory blocks
08:37:14 <I440r> thers nothing top secret about it heh
08:39:39 <Robert> Ah!
08:39:42 <Robert> Thanks, Speuler.
08:39:52 <Speuler> np
08:40:23 <Robert> I440r: Hey, if you say that it is top secret, people may think it's good :P
08:41:56 <I440r> lol
08:42:05 <I440r> it IS good. weather they think it or not :P
08:42:15 <I440r> }:)
08:44:34 <Robert> ;)
08:56:10 * sylk wanders off
08:57:09 <sylk> maybe I'll have some recipes for you next time...
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08:59:28 <I440r> recipies ?
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11:49:34 <gilbertbsd> hi
11:49:38 <onetom> hi
11:56:32 <gilbertbsd> how is the new year so far?
11:58:00 <onetom> sean has visited us
11:58:16 <onetom> flux got wings & makes a good headway
12:01:00 <gilbertbsd> sean? what did he say?
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21:56:13 <fridge> hey
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22:54:05 <Speuler> oi
22:54:14 <Stepan> hey Speuler :-)
22:54:26 <Speuler> just returned :)
22:54:32 <Stepan> Ah.. from Ulm?
22:54:35 <Speuler> plenty of snow on the roads
22:54:40 <Speuler> no. salzburg
22:55:42 <Speuler> won't stay up for long anymore.
23:03:42 <Stepan> you did not sleep yet?
23:03:49 <Stepan> just came to work at 7:30
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.01.06