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10:38:20 <Robert> Hi tcn :)
10:42:03 <tcn> hi
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15:09:15 <Speuler> 'morning
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19:38:11 <Xuz> Hello.
19:39:00 <onetom> hi
19:39:15 <Xuz> Hello.  I'm just looking for the recipe for Szechuan Stacks.
19:39:23 <onetom> ))
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20:55:02 <Herkamire> hi guys
20:56:23 <Xuz> Hello
21:02:11 <Herkamire> anybody know of a forth for OS X?
21:02:21 * onetom not
21:02:30 <onetom> btw, hello herk
21:02:56 <onetom> not much progress in flux+bochs yet
21:03:09 <Herkamire> hi onetom :)
21:03:18 <onetom> but ive exchanged info about it w several ppl since
21:03:35 <Herkamire> cool
21:03:36 <onetom> & i wrote a txt mod vid mem "emulator" 4 flux
21:03:49 <Herkamire> cool :)
21:04:02 <onetom> so im on the way rewriting the editor 4 txt mode
21:04:16 <Herkamire> doesn't that work with bochs?
21:04:17 <onetom> tho, i hit a big problem we need 2 track down
21:04:23 <onetom> that? what?
21:04:36 <Herkamire> wouldrn't txt mode work in bochs?
21:05:18 <onetom> it will of course
21:05:30 <onetom> or?
21:05:40 <onetom> probably u misunderstood me
21:06:32 <onetom> i wrote some lines of code what displays a mem area having the structure of the usual txt video modes
21:06:44 <onetom> char code , attrib , char code , attrib ...
21:07:06 <onetom> & it displays it only graphically now
21:07:27 <onetom> so i could develop the new color editor interactively
21:07:42 <onetom> because i can test it through this simulation layer
21:07:48 <onetom> comprende?
21:08:07 <Herkamire> gotcha
21:08:16 <onetom> nah.
21:08:28 <onetom> so, the big problem is the following:
21:08:43 <onetom> i only have access 2 newer computers
21:08:55 <onetom> 1GHz< 1s
21:09:30 <onetom> & the flux kbd drv vomits itself on most of such machines
21:09:46 <onetom> it doesnt accept keystrokes
21:10:13 <onetom> if i pull the keyb plug out & push it back
21:10:19 <Herkamire> I should try flux here (on vacation where there are a few old PCs
21:10:52 <onetom> the keyb is alive again but flux misunderstoods it & displays the wrong characters
21:11:22 <onetom> eg, if i type sdfg it displays ASDF
21:11:26 <onetom> strange...
21:12:10 <onetom> i also have several old machines hanging around here, but those 1s dont have vesa2.0 video cards :)
21:12:20 <onetom> so im a lil bit stucked
21:12:51 <onetom> but as i mentioned, im already in an email session w sean
21:12:58 <Herkamire> how are you working with flux then?
21:13:01 <onetom> & we r tryin 2 resolve these problems
21:13:13 <onetom> atm i can really play w it :)
21:13:57 <onetom> probably it works on 1 of my older machines (1GHz tualatin)
21:14:12 <onetom> but i left its power supply @ home :)
21:14:28 <onetom> but its just a temporal problem ;)
21:14:31 <onetom> of course
21:15:06 <onetom> probably its a better idea 2 write non lfb mode supports 4 flux...
21:15:36 <onetom> but 4 such a modification we also have 2 alter the font display code
21:15:55 <onetom> & i dont understand it yet. coz its a lil bit tricky
21:16:14 <Herkamire> I really like the idea of getting it to work in text mode. That would make it so it would run on just about any old PC right? what about new ones?
21:16:32 <onetom> since it generates words 4 each character what words r able 2 display that char in a very afficient way
21:16:57 <onetom> what about new ones? what do u mean by thet?
21:16:59 <onetom> that
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21:17:28 <onetom> & id also like 2 have a simple char mode variant of course
21:18:12 <onetom> even a mono version w/o colors, so is can run it even on our very old 386dx40 w a 10"mono dstn display :)
21:18:23 <onetom> hello, master!! :))
21:18:30 <greyarea> ;)
21:18:52 <onetom> we were just discussing the progress of flux 4 bochs
21:19:02 <greyarea> is there some
21:19:34 <onetom> w 1 of the guys having a PPC. i already mentioned them, didnt i
21:19:43 <onetom> not yet of course
21:20:27 <greyarea> it ran on bochs once upon a time
21:20:31 <Herkamire> onetom: I mean would txt mode make flux work on most newer PCs?
21:20:34 <onetom> im the voluntarily responsible 4 such a variant
21:21:13 <onetom> of course the 206 runs in boch
21:21:41 <onetom> Herkamire: do u mean will it resolve the problem w newer pcs?
21:22:05 <onetom> Herkamire: im afraid the problem is not related 2 the graphics mode
21:22:28 <onetom> greyarea: hey, dont u have a simpler font display code 4 flux?
21:22:33 <greyarea> onetom: whats the latest on that keyboard prob
21:22:39 <greyarea> yes
21:22:59 <onetom> greyarea: what simply copies the bitmap of each character 2 the screen/framebuffer
21:23:14 <greyarea> it is simpler if you dont expand the bitmaps out into words.. just bitblit each time
21:23:34 <onetom> greyarea: coz it would b easier 2 modify 4 other, non lfb video modes
21:24:00 <onetom> it is of course, but dont u have such code ready by hand?
21:24:19 <greyarea> not at hand
21:24:26 <greyarea> but maybe archived
21:24:33 <onetom> i wrote u a letter about the latest news about the keyb issue
21:25:03 <onetom> u could save me some hrs if u dig some out 4 me...
21:25:09 <greyarea> email date approx sat 4th?
21:25:22 <onetom> pardon?
21:25:59 <Herkamire> greyarea: are you the author of flux?
21:26:03 <greyarea> last email i have from you has your text mode simulator code in it etc... that the latest progress?
21:26:16 <greyarea> Herkamire: perpetrator, yes
21:26:27 <TreyB> Sean!
21:26:42 <greyarea> hello trey..long time no talk
21:27:03 <TreyB> Yep.  Wife, kids, job, farm animals...
21:27:11 <greyarea> same here :)
21:28:53 <TreyB> greyarea: do you have a few minutes to chat about the boot sequence?
21:29:15 <greyarea> can do
21:29:53 <TreyB> As I understand it (cursory reading), you set the graphics mode very early in the boot process.
21:29:53 <onetom> brb
21:30:11 <greyarea> before entering into protected mode
21:30:38 <TreyB> Yep.  This makes it difficult to write "real" graphics drivers.
21:31:38 <greyarea> Yes I realise that. It was the simplest answer I had to having no "real" documentation for any graphics cards
21:32:57 <greyarea> If we can get ahold of some though, no reason why the boot process it can't be changed
21:33:42 <greyarea> sorry, surplus 'it' there... boot process can be changed easily enough
21:33:46 <TreyB> I've written a graphic driver for VMWare for another OS, and I used to write graphics drivers for BeOS.
21:34:30 <TreyB> If you can modify the boot process to keep going even if it can't change into a graphics mode, I can probably get a minimal VMWare driver working.
21:34:55 <greyarea> Yep, that can be done.
21:35:59 <TreyB> Cool.
21:36:10 <greyarea> So you can write the graphics driver to do the screen mode change in protected mode etc?
21:36:18 <TreyB> Yep.
21:36:49 <greyarea> Bit blitting words etc? Or do you use a particular library of commands?
21:38:00 <TreyB> That all depends on what you use.  For the VMWare driver, I downloaded the font to the "card" and then used the "hardware" acceleration to draw glyphs, do area fills, etc.
21:38:43 <TreyB> I haven't run 04x, so I don't know what it requires.
21:39:11 <greyarea> 04x...you mean Enth 0.4?
21:39:14 <TreyB> Yes.
21:39:42 <greyarea> It doesn't so much 'require' anything in particular
21:40:06 <TreyB> Well, do you require direct frame buffer access, or can I abstract that away?
21:40:14 <greyarea> The graphics is just direct video memory writes to the LFB. Simple bit blitting.
21:40:22 <TreyB> Eeek.
21:40:47 <TreyB> Well, you don't have any choice, but I'd rather not have that API exposed to regular programs.
21:41:09 <greyarea> But I dont really care.. I am no graphics driver expert.. there is prob an optimal way
21:41:38 <TreyB> For performance reasons, you want never to touch the framebuffer memory.
21:41:56 <greyarea> Tell me about it. It seems slow.
21:42:57 <greyarea> You have the experience. What is your advice?
21:44:08 <TreyB> Create some kind of API for drawing to the display.  This lets real drivers use acceleration, and the VESA LFB stuff still works at its regular (lousy) performance.
21:44:38 <TreyB> How fancy of an API you create depends on what you want to do with it.  I recommend starting simple :-)
21:44:49 <greyarea> Agreed.
21:45:56 <Herkamire> add-texture blit-texture
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21:47:24 <TreyB> Add to those two area-fill and screen-to-screen-blit, and you can do almost anything.
21:47:41 <greyarea> Sounds good.
21:48:39 <greyarea> What do I need to provide? Just a version of 0.4 that boots into plain old 80x25 text mode?
21:48:40 <Herkamire> oh yeah :) screen-to-screen is very good :)
21:50:47 <TreyB> greyarea: that should do it.  Do you do anything with graphics mode except make bit-mapped console?
21:51:07 <greyarea> Herkamire: You're a person with graphics know how too then?
21:51:23 <greyarea> TreyB: nothing
21:51:44 <Herkamire> greyarea: not really
21:52:03 <greyarea> TreyB: well nothing in the release, except tetris. more at home but that keeps changing anyway
21:52:39 <TreyB> greyarea: sure.  Do you vector the screen I/O words?
21:54:00 <greyarea> No. 0.4 does mostly compile-on-demand stuff. When I want video output, I compile a block with video words on it.
21:55:03 <greyarea> Open to other ideas and methods though of course.
21:55:17 <TreyB> Can I set up the graphics driver and then re-compile and run from there?
21:56:22 <greyarea> Do you mean can you re-compile so it runs your graphics driver automatically every boot?
21:56:30 <TreyB> Don't worry about it too much.  If I can have a Enth 0.4-in-text-mode, I can work from there.
21:57:34 <TreyB> You said compile-on-demand, which I took to mean that if I set up the driver and then reloaded code, it might work.
21:57:43 <greyarea> You can set it up however you like. Compile-on-demand, 'included at boot time' or 'in the kernel'.
21:58:04 <greyarea> Ok. Yes that is correct.
21:58:40 <TreyB> Ok.  That should help a bit.
21:58:47 <onetom> back
21:59:48 <TreyB> I suspect that I will have a few words for PCI bus I/O that should go into the kernel (if you don't have them already), otherwise included-at-boot should work.
22:00:44 <greyarea> I/O words are still as I documented them for you whenever we last spoke. Port access using eg: P@ P! PC@ PC!
22:01:33 <TreyB> P@ == 32bit or 16?
22:02:02 <greyarea> 32bit - 16bit: PW@ PW!
22:02:24 <TreyB> Cool.  I can build from there, no problem.
22:02:28 <greyarea> Also INSW OUTSW.
22:02:58 <TreyB> PCI don't want no string 'structions.
22:04:26 <TreyB> greyarea: when should I look for a text-only Enth 0.4?
22:05:24 <greyarea> Good question... I suspect that this coming weekend might have a few unclaimed hours in it. I may have a go then.
22:05:51 <onetom> TreyB: if u wanna write some program what produces some graphical output
22:06:03 <TreyB> If you would post to the mailing list when you get around to it, I'd appreciate it.
22:06:11 <onetom> TreyB: u start the program w say "12 read"
22:06:24 <greyarea> TreyB: Ok.
22:07:04 <TreyB> onetom: thanks.
22:07:12 <onetom> TreyB: & then u have the graphics primitives get compiled (pixel pointer & color handling  stuff like that. its 1 blk long only)
22:07:42 * TreyB needs to sleep, as he has to take a sick two year old to the doctor tomorrow morning.
22:07:54 <TreyB> G'night, all.
22:08:11 <onetom> TreyB: if u wanna have some text output, u say "7 read" & u have emit & type what operates on the graph screen
22:08:36 <greyarea> onetom: what are your thoughts on disk access, hdd, fdd etc
22:08:38 <onetom> TreyB: & it uses the words defined in the prev video drv block
22:08:43 <onetom> TreyB: thats all
22:09:10 <onetom> TreyB: of course u have shortcut 4 these words: "screen 12x22"
22:09:14 <onetom> TreyB: now, g nite ;)
22:09:33 <onetom> greyarea: should i have thoughts about those?
22:10:09 <greyarea> I dont know if you should or not... just asking
22:10:16 <onetom> greyarea: i dont want much atm just simple blk rd/wrt words
22:10:37 <onetom> greyarea: so ican play w bitmaps, video files etc
22:11:05 <onetom> i would dd them in2 a raw partition from linux
22:11:29 <onetom> & that would b my fs :)
22:11:53 <greyarea> Will that serve in the longer run though, do you think?
22:12:00 <onetom> brb (toilet ;)
22:12:26 <onetom> 4 me, it would b sufficient 4 a yr or even 2yrs
22:16:05 <Herkamire> greyarea: I think that filesystems can/should be built on block read/write
22:16:35 <Herkamire> so block read/write words would never become outdated
22:17:33 <Herkamire> I have not entirely worked out how I want disk access to work myself though
22:17:38 <greyarea> Herkamire: I agree.
22:19:03 <onetom> back
22:19:20 <greyarea> Herkamire: You are participating in the development of a colorforth for ppc?
22:19:21 <onetom> Herkamire: of course they should
22:20:03 <Herkamire> I haven't used blocks yet really, and I want to before I decide how I think they should work :) (and that should happen before I decide how I want to do disk access)
22:20:46 <onetom> greyarea: of course some fs driver can b useful but i would still use a raw partition & i would only copy data from an fs in2 that
22:20:47 <Herkamire> greyarea: I'm helping a little with fpos (native ppc colorforth)
22:21:13 <greyarea> Herkamire: sounds like a logical appraoch :)
22:21:56 <greyarea> onetom: so we just need to read the MBR and figure out where the partitions are
22:22:43 <Herkamire> greyarea:  :) I really like thinking this stuff through, and coming up with solutions and stuff, but sometimes my solutions end up useless in practice, because I was trying to solve problems that never exist.
22:22:43 <onetom> greyarea: & would play processed videofiles like this: dd if=/dev/hda4 of=/dev/stdout seek=600 count=1M | mplayer -
22:22:54 <greyarea> onetom: could be dangerous. you would want to be realy sure you were working with the correct partitiin
22:23:34 <greyarea> Herkamire: join the club :)
22:24:09 <onetom> greyarea: i would simply use safe drivers daily 4 developent purposes, where each blk access word limits blk number 2 the raw partition
22:24:20 <onetom> greyarea: it lower performance, but who cares ;)
22:24:23 <greyarea> Kerkamire: I have no build number on Enth.. it would just be embarassing..
22:24:43 <greyarea> onetom: fair enough
22:25:21 <onetom> greyarea: why r u keep mentioning dos programs? dont u use linux?
22:25:37 <Herkamire> greyarea: the best programs are those that have been rewritten at least 4 times :)
22:25:55 <onetom> greyarea: btw, ive modified emake.fs so now u can build flux w gforth too
22:26:00 <greyarea> onetom: yes I use Linux. But Enth started out when I still used Windoze. So some things still carry over.
22:26:50 <onetom> greyarea: thats not a problem, i was just curious. i like that u attached both version of nasm 2 ur zips ;)
22:27:12 <greyarea> Herkamire: just 4? I must confess to never having finished a program. They are always up for revision :)
22:28:03 <greyarea> onetom: got a request for Linux support early on. threw in nasm for Linux and hoped for the best.
22:28:09 <Herkamire> greyarea: I admit I'm guessing. I do not read project histories much
22:28:43 <Herkamire> perhaps 10?
22:29:10 <Herkamire> I think 4 is safe. I'm talking about scrapping what you have and starting over.
22:29:50 <greyarea> yes, only a clean sheet of paper constitutes a rewrite
22:30:01 <greyarea> so is there somewhere I can go to read about the progress of fpos?
22:30:19 <onetom> greyarea: now i can justify it works fine under linux w some modifications of emake
22:30:31 <onetom> greyarea: i will emil that 2 2 u
22:30:40 <greyarea> onetom: great. feel like releasing that?
22:31:38 <onetom> ?
22:32:00 <onetom> "feel like releasing"? -- unkow im not a native english..
22:32:55 <greyarea> onetom: do you mind me posting that on the site so people can use gforth and linux to build flux?
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22:34:10 <onetom> of course im not, why should i mind? so i understood ur question well :)
22:34:47 <greyarea> just asking politely ;)
22:34:53 <onetom> but it didnt have 2 much sense ;p why should i email it 2 u if i wouldnt like 2 share it w others?
22:35:13 <onetom> ah, come on! dont b so polite!
22:35:38 <greyarea> being polite never goes astray IMHO :)
22:36:32 <onetom> k, let me correct meself: dont b that polite w me, plz! i beg u!! ;)
22:36:51 <sylk> hehe
22:37:11 <greyarea> ok... i'll call you names behind your back.. that make you feel better? ;)
22:37:36 <onetom> a lot better! :D
22:38:55 <sylk> odd conversation :)
22:39:29 <onetom> greyarea: mail sent
22:39:44 <greyarea> onetom: got it
22:40:01 <onetom> btw, i failed using " in the color terminal
22:40:18 <onetom> how should i use it?
22:41:03 <onetom> i was tryin the same i saw in the color sources...
22:41:27 <onetom> but it cried about stack underflow & things like that
22:41:40 <onetom> & it made the machine reboot many other times :)
22:42:15 <greyarea> " is kind of like c" in ans
22:42:29 <greyarea> hangon is c" in ans forth? i dont remember
22:43:36 <onetom> me neither but not thats the point
22:44:39 <greyarea> there is an example in the clock code
22:44:44 <onetom> screen 12x22 : x G " asd qwe" ; x type
22:44:51 <onetom> this doesnt work
22:45:01 <onetom> i cant recall what was the problem
22:45:13 <greyarea> ah, counted string
22:45:32 <greyarea> : x " asd qwe" count ; x type
22:45:33 <onetom> & i dont have a machine i could try it on atm - damn kbd issue...
22:45:54 <onetom> oh, i didnt work either
22:46:29 <onetom> could u try it & if it works could u mail ur full directory of that version it works on?
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22:46:51 <onetom> hello marek
22:47:20 <greyarea> does the clock demo exist in the 0.4 release?
22:47:33 <greyarea> i thought i included it
22:49:07 <greyarea> as I recall it defines ." as a macro which shows the use of " - if the clock demo works then " is functioning correctly
22:49:46 <onetom> yes it exists
22:50:02 <onetom> many other blks define ."
22:50:11 <greyarea> the example is postponing " in an immediate word, but it still shows the usage
22:50:21 <onetom> but it doesnt work from the color terminal
22:51:36 <greyarea> hmmm interesting...
22:52:18 <greyarea> are you using it as compiling green or kahki (that off color green for postponing)
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23:06:45 <onetom> green
23:07:17 <onetom> that capital G tried 2 mention that ;)
23:07:18 <greyarea> onetom: <red>x<green>" Hello World" count ;<white>x type
23:07:32 <greyarea> oh :)
23:07:34 <onetom> yes
23:07:53 <greyarea> that works for me on a standard 0.4 boot disk, from the terminal
23:08:21 <onetom> but w the screen & 12x22 drivers?
23:11:29 <greyarea> i think all the apps use screen and 12x22 dont they? and " seems to work... maybe I am missing something you are doing?
23:11:39 <onetom> & what if " is white inside or outside a def?
23:12:20 <onetom> " works if i load the from blocks, but not on the color therminal
23:12:24 <onetom> terminal even :)
23:13:24 <greyarea> " is a macro. macros are not designed to be white. you should get an error message unless " exists in the Enth kernel. then it is ambiguous as Enth's " would be for use in plain ascii ans forth source
23:13:56 <greyarea> a white " would result in a spectacular system death i suspect, though i've not tried it
23:14:24 <greyarea> no just a warm boot maybe
23:16:19 <greyarea> hangon.. just a guess.. but are you using the screen and 12x22 from the terminal?
23:16:22 <onetom> brb
23:16:44 * onetom looks 4 that laptop what is able 2 run enth
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23:22:47 <onetom> of course im using screen 12x22 from terminal & it works if i only use emit
23:23:32 <onetom> look, i managed 2 try this:
23:24:34 <onetom> f1 x f2 " asd qwe" count ; f3 screen 12x22 black page red x type switch f4 2000 f3 ms
23:24:40 <onetom> & it hangs the machine
23:25:23 <onetom> & the screen is not blanked either so switch is not reached
23:25:46 <onetom> f1 x f2 " asd qwe" ; f3 screen 12x22 black page red x count type 
23:25:58 <onetom> gave me a 2 - stack underflow or what...
23:28:28 <greyarea> and if you put that exact line onto a block and load it, you say it works?
23:29:03 <onetom> well.. :) infact i said that but i havent tried atm
23:29:12 <onetom> that laptop is not mine
23:29:39 <onetom> & iwas only allowed use it 4 some mins
23:29:56 <onetom> it is located 1 floor above anyway :)
23:31:08 <onetom> im resource challanged @ the moment - coz there is no txt mode flux & there is that terrible kbd bug. grrrr..
23:31:33 <greyarea> yeah i'm currently away from home so i can't just ype it into enth to test it either
23:32:14 <onetom> k, get back 2 the problem l8r
23:32:25 <greyarea> well, you've asked for it and i've also promised treyb a text mode version of 0.4.. so i'd better do it soon huh
23:32:25 <onetom> thx 4 visiting the channel
23:32:32 <onetom> & helping online :)
23:33:28 <onetom> dont forget 2 help w a simple font drv ( a simple bitmap copy version)
23:34:04 <greyarea> ok just a suggestion... try your code from a block.. if it also doesn't work from there, then put it in a BRANCH.. screen is designed to be used with branchpoints
23:35:46 <onetom> aha BUT
23:35:52 <greyarea> also you might try defining x after you load screen and 12x22.. to be sure it references the correct x
23:36:13 <onetom> screen works w emit as i already told u
23:36:23 <onetom> aha, okay
23:36:30 <onetom> will try those!
23:37:01 --- join: proteus_ (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth
23:37:02 <greyarea> good .. luck and thanks for asking question, it will help with an FAQ later on
23:37:03 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:37:21 <onetom> how long could u stay?
23:37:28 <greyarea> now?
23:37:31 <onetom> & when will u come again?
23:37:35 <onetom> yes, now
23:37:47 <greyarea> half hour
23:37:51 <greyarea> if you like
23:38:09 <onetom> mmm.. thats sad but i have 2 do a very urgent job
23:38:21 <onetom> infact i got up ~4hrs b4
23:38:22 <greyarea> iweekend
23:38:38 <greyarea> oops ..i'll try to return on the weekend
23:38:43 <onetom> but i havent done anything 2 finish that task
23:38:55 <onetom> instead i was talkin 2 u
23:39:06 <greyarea> ah.. so my fault huh ;)
23:39:13 --- quit: lament ("PROSECUTORS WILL BE TRANSGRESSICUTED.")
23:39:24 <onetom> & adviced the mplayer team 2 incorporate some metaprogramming in2 mplayer
23:39:48 <onetom> greyarea: abs urs ;D yes. i was so happy 2 c u here
23:40:54 <onetom> do u know what mplayer is? c mplayerhq.hu
23:43:53 <greyarea> looks cool
23:46:40 * greyarea is beckoned away by the other half...
23:46:47 <onetom> its the ONLY video/audio player ;)
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23:58:15 --- quit: proteus_ (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
23:58:21 --- nick: yeahright -> proteusguy
23:58:54 * sylk wanders back over
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.01.05