00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.01.02 00:27:23 --- quit: Etaoin ("raise OverFlowError, "Ewwww, now it's all over the floor."") 00:49:47 --- join: lament (~lament@h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net) joined #forth 02:03:20 --- join: flyfly (~marekb@mail.melzer.cz) joined #forth 03:02:56 --- join: Klaw` (~chuck@ip68-4-159-165.oc.oc.cox.net) joined #forth 03:21:08 --- quit: Klaw`_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:23:09 --- join: Speuler_ (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4af5.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 04:30:26 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 06:25:06 --- quit: lament ("PROSECUTORS WILL BE TRANSGRESSICUTED.") 07:07:12 --- quit: fridge (""Woman who cooks carrots and pees in same pot is unsanitary."") 07:11:05 --- join: sylk (search@dialup-159.175.220.203.acc01-geor-mor.comindico.com.au) joined #forth 07:13:39 --- join: I440r (~mark4@sdn-ap-030tnnashP0498.dialsprint.net) joined #forth 07:15:21 --- nick: Speuler_ -> Speuler 07:15:41 moin moin 07:15:51 hi 07:17:46 hi 07:17:59 been working on making isforth parse terminfo files 07:18:12 wrote 80% of the code to do it in 4 hours yesterday 07:18:25 still gotta figure out the %? %t %e parts in terminfo tho 07:18:25 how to parse them properly that is 07:18:33 started writing a forth for my ipaq 07:19:12 what is an ipaq btw ? 07:19:17 pda 07:19:46 i mean is it like a mini imac ? :) 07:20:02 nope 07:20:07 looks like a palm pc 07:20:15 320x240 screen 07:20:23 i know its a pda... is it like the imac but hand sized ? :) 07:20:31 a cursor pad, some buttons 07:20:33 touch screen 07:20:43 will your forth be able to metacompile itself ? 07:20:54 there's a pxa250 cpu in it 07:21:04 I440r: eventually, probably. 07:21:09 i start using c 07:21:30 that's on of the few languages i got a compiler for, running on the ipaq 07:21:41 col 07:21:41 erm cOOl 07:21:41 ugh 07:21:43 no. not cool :) 07:21:55 do it in assembler :) 07:21:55 be a hard core coder :) 07:22:07 i don't have an assembler for it yet 07:22:09 use the c compiler to write an assembler first 07:22:24 then code your forth in assembler 07:22:24 and rm -rf the c compiler :) 07:22:24 intend to write the assembler in forth 07:23:14 ya but that will mean an almost total rewrite of the forth to assembler from c when you have it 07:23:27 and the forth should be able to compile to non-pxa cpus too 07:23:30 brb - making coffee 07:24:04 saves me from iplementing a new forth whenever i intend to use it on anothe cpu 07:24:15 or write the assembler first :) 07:24:44 Good morning, people. 07:24:52 t'is easier to verify code generated by the assembler from a running forth 07:25:05 then by writing a forth 07:25:25 morning the_rob 07:28:06 morning :) 07:28:10 started coding it when sitting at the waterside of lake deep (tiefsee), translated to "deep sea" 07:28:19 so it might be called "deep sea forth" :) 07:28:47 or i call it "vagabund" 07:29:22 other options are "traveling forth" or "mobile forth" 07:30:05 which name would you think is a good one ? 07:31:21 traveling forth is good! 07:31:36 thats catchy heh 07:31:43 wandering forth? 07:32:25 GoForth 07:32:49 not as catchy ad "traveling" 07:33:05 roaming forth 07:33:06 er no. thats not as good either heh 07:33:14 ForthOnTheRun ? 07:33:17 go forth + * has been arround for too long 07:33:17 you cant steal it 07:33:26 traveling is the best one methinks 07:33:50 all over forth :) 07:33:50 lol 07:34:13 * Speuler goes shopping 07:34:57 i like that "traveling forth" 07:34:59 its catchy 07:35:02 use that one 07:36:27 something that backpackers use 07:37:07 :) 08:01:31 Hmmm... on an 8-bit microcontroller, what cell size is recommended? 08:02:17 16 or 32 bits wastes CPU power and memory when we're just working with characters and similar, but 8-bit stack words is a bit limited. 08:02:42 16 bit 08:04:10 16 bit <--- 08:04:33 How should you do if you need more than 16 bits the, for a counter or whatever... 08:05:17 anyone advise on a miniforth? I need something to test some ideas out on, including a lab for a group of students 08:06:06 Miniforth? 08:07:02 an implementation of forth that can compile words but doesn't have too much fluff 08:07:18 really bare bones 08:07:55 Hm. Doesn't fig-uk.org have a list of some of those? 08:08:46 Otherwise, you could write one yourself. 08:09:22 If it should just be able to read a line, and compile the word in it, you should be able to implement it in a few pages of assembly lanuage code. 08:09:43 "Moving Forth" and "Build your own Forth" could help you with that. 08:10:03 thats what I'm doing :) I'm just wondering about the opposition :) 08:12:32 Ah.. well, there are an infinite number of ways to implement it. 08:12:54 And design it. 08:13:10 So I guess you can't do it wrong. Isn't that a wonderful feeling? ;) 08:14:21 :) 08:19:07 That 8bit microcontroller wouldn't be the AVR would it ? 08:21:21 It sure is. 08:21:49 I actually wrote a small 16-bit stack based VM for it, but it's quite limited. 08:22:02 Much like the BASIC Stamp, I guess. 08:22:16 Although I've only heard descriptions of it, never seen one. 08:22:53 you'd be running from external ram with the vm purely in program memory? 08:23:51 Currently, I use internal RAM (which is interfaced just the like external RAM), but I'd like to use EEPROM instead. 08:26:14 (External) 08:30:58 one of my mad schemes was to hook up a harddisk to the AVR. I got it working kind of. read and write blocks etc 08:33:26 Cool. 08:33:40 That's really mass storage for a microcontroller. 08:37:53 yeah 1GB harddisk servicing a 8bit microcontroller which has been EXPANDED to support a massive 2K of external RAM. 08:38:47 it was an idea thought up on a friday night and implemented in time for the monday morning meeting 08:40:38 re 08:40:52 actually I found a minimal forth: 3ins4th. supports three instructions! read byte, write byte, execute address. that makes it a monitor I guess. relies on an external forth to actually drive it. might use it as an example of how to begin porting. 08:48:25 :) 08:50:34 sylk: how would you increment with these three instructions ? 08:51:54 you use your host forth. 08:52:14 what makes 3instforth call itself "forth" than ? 08:52:19 readbyte 1 + writebyte 08:53:06 sounds like "dry water pills" which you need to dissolve in water for use 08:53:14 I think it was the author's attempt to justify it :) it can't even compile. its more of a monitor than anything. 08:54:35 eg you want to test some forth code on a new CPU. you port this monitor app to the new CPU then write your forth code on the host. then assemble it to bytes then transfer it. all the time you can run as if the forth is "already" ported. 08:55:45 sylk: couldn't that be done with a 1insforth, just supporting "nop" ? 08:56:26 or if its controlling a LED just use a switch :P 08:58:10 it is possible though to write a forth with 6 only instructions 08:58:33 possibly less, but i haven't verified that 08:59:11 (and that assumes that i/o is mem-mapped) 09:03:45 now I'm interested! 6 instructions? line 'em up 09:06:54 increment pointer 09:06:58 decrement pointer 09:07:10 increment value under pointer 09:07:17 decrement value under pointer 09:07:45 so far it looks like brainf?ck to me 09:07:49 indeed 09:07:51 it is 09:07:57 i just left out . and , 09:08:02 for input and output 09:08:31 what about the while? "[" 09:08:33 leaves you "begin flow control construct" and "end flow control construct" 09:08:42 [ and ] 09:09:14 quite a problem was the memory interface 09:09:20 but it can be donr 09:09:22 done 09:09:40 (you need the capability of absolute addressing) 09:11:57 the only problem with that is you have no facility for AND, OR and all the other things that the real world expects 09:12:03 sure 09:12:06 you can write them 09:12:15 1+ 1- is enough for that 09:12:16 eg configuring a port bit by bit 09:12:47 (pointer inc/dec too of course) 09:12:50 right 09:13:03 i've done the bitwise stuff 09:13:08 its one of those crazy turing machine examples that are capable of running linux but require several millenia to bring up "LILO". 09:13:18 you guys are writing a forth "brainfuck" arent you :P 09:13:18 i still wanna do one in isforth :) 09:13:37 the source can run through an optimizing compiler 09:14:52 I440r: writing brainfuck compiler/interpreter is trivial 09:14:57 hehe 09:15:04 even an optimizing one is easy 09:15:15 not a real challenge for you :) 09:15:53 heh 09:15:56 bf is simple. it was the second thing I wrote for the AVR. I'll dig the code up if I can find it. 09:16:20 its plucking up the courage to lower my standars enought to actually learn the language and code it thats the problem :) 09:16:20 heh 09:16:58 I440r: also the lang is trivial 09:17:08 but writing anything useful in it is a challenge :) 09:17:29 its no small feat to code in bf. if you aren't insane at the start you will be unbalanced when you get good at it! 09:17:50 it can be very educative 09:17:56 heh 09:18:09 gives you a good feeling for the essentials 09:18:10 its the programming equivalent of the towers of hanoi problem. 09:18:19 sylk im an old amiga guy. bf is an amiga language :) 09:22:52 then you know what Intuition is. 09:23:10 and remember the joys of full screen program icons and DirOpus 09:24:34 i used dir opus :) 09:24:44 i had all the books from addison and wesley, the intuition, workbench, etc, etc, etc 09:25:19 sylk towers of hanoi is actually a very very trivial problem 09:25:23 you can get opus for windows... not the same. 09:25:30 thers a little huristic that makes it easy even for you 09:25:43 just paint every other dis blue. 09:25:43 blue disks always move in the same direction 09:25:57 the non blue ones move in the opposite direction 09:26:03 I was referring to the fact that to copy a number from one location to another you increment it "over there" by the number you want. 09:46:44 --- join: gilbertbsd (~gilbertbs@roam103-75.student.harvard.edu) joined #forth 09:47:11 hullo 09:47:13 HNY 09:48:17 keh? 09:48:31 keh? 09:48:36 gilbertbsd: :) 09:48:52 sup i440. 09:49:13 I want my money back: this year feels like the last one! 09:51:03 * sylk feels older and less wiser 09:52:39 as the year gets larger, the less I know! 09:53:38 also I am still not a forthwright :( 09:57:40 gilbertbsd: install linux. then install isforth :) 10:02:09 hmmm I might replace init with isforth for that "close to the metal" feeling 10:02:25 :) 10:02:36 rewriting the initscripts in forth was another thing i had already though of :) 10:02:43 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-QuebecCity-ppp81804.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 10:02:44 its not ready for that yet tho 10:02:53 and after rebooting then start wondering what to do next 10:04:11 Hey wossname. 10:04:43 hi 10:04:46 hello 10:05:16 actually! I can install linux using knoppix of course. 10:05:24 and then d/l and install isforth from there! 10:07:19 or build an image by mounting a filesystem in loopback and putting everything in the right places and go from there. hmmm. might do it and write it up. 10:07:46 or better yet, make it a project and get some students onto it :) 10:08:06 some students? do you teach? 10:09:11 lol 10:09:12 rm -rf init. rm -rf bash 10:09:12 no need for either any more. i got isforth :) 10:09:12 --- quit: I440r (Excess Flood) 10:09:23 not a lecturer, I run labs when I can. I got conned into it when relieving someone who was sick once. They keep calling me back :) 10:09:27 --- join: I440r (~mark4@sdn-ap-030tnnashP0498.dialsprint.net) joined #forth 10:09:34 aha. lucky. 10:09:53 I would do such a project for you if I were in your school ;) 10:10:05 :) 10:10:18 of course you would it would be 20% of your final grade :) 10:10:29 ah I have not cared about grades for a while. 10:10:39 hmmm that suddenly makes me a little nervous. 10:10:43 what's the point of teaching if you can't abuse your position for evil :) 10:11:10 I wonder a little about all those projects I abandoned. whither my grades? 10:12:09 I've spent the last four months seriously relearning forth and using it for various projects of my own (for my engineering work and otherwise). 10:12:23 what kinda engineering work do you do? 10:12:26 embedded computers? 10:12:37 btw are there any cars that use forth code in their computers? 10:12:46 well I'm an electronic and computer engineer... 10:12:58 Lazy bum here myself. 10:13:03 pleased to meet you. 10:13:27 dunno. the last car I ripped the engine computer out of had a 6805 and a few others in there. 10:13:51 hmmm. 10:14:53 most of it was IO which is to be expected. I'm not an expert at chipping cars though. I have a cousin for that. He's into cars to the level I'm into computers. 10:15:32 I was just wondering. 10:15:54 I think it is a little reckless to put computers into car engines. 10:15:56 mcc smart turbo loaders are balanced by using forth 10:16:00 but on the other hand, i am a wimp. 10:16:15 right now I'm writing notes and other bits of documentation about forths, using forth and implementing it. 10:17:13 dunno. I think a computer has a place in replacing the humble light switch. cars aren't any different. There are reasons for having smart items. 10:17:57 I don't think a computer has a place in replacing a light switch. 10:18:13 it leads to the red-taping of every freaking thing. 10:18:29 gilbertbsd: what about,say, x10 power switches ? 10:18:44 it does when you want to coordinate five thousand lights from a central point that each need to be switched on or off depending on timing etc. 10:18:48 imagine that for each component replaced with a computer, the vendor provides his OWN language for controlling it. 10:19:05 speuler x10 ads are ANNOYING ;) 10:19:16 people should do away with them. 10:19:43 sylk in your case what was done before the computer was used? 10:20:48 well the example just given was in a nightclub project I did. before computers it was a 240VAC power cable going to various positions and a number of relays controlling which light went on/off. 10:21:31 gilbertbsd: aspirin ads are annoying too, but the product may be useful occasionaly 10:21:39 now there are many many many lights that can individually be powered on or off, just by sending bitmaps to a cluster of controllers. 10:22:11 aha. You had to mention asprin :D IMHO if I need to take aspirin, I do not so as to give my immune system a fighting chance :D 10:22:58 sylk so when the computer blue screens it is still possible to do it by hand? 10:23:09 how could your immune system help with hangovers ? thought it was better for fighting infections 10:23:19 so the difference is signficant. If I were to redo the project again the cluster would be all microcontrollers running forth rather than the assembly code we used. 10:23:43 8051's !!! 10:24:01 sylk did you not enjoy coding in Asm ? 10:24:24 computer ads are annoying too. thus, away with computers ? 10:24:27 the cluster can't blue screen. it can't crash. the "head honcho" PC controlling the cluster is a linux machine. 10:25:00 speuler exactly :D a computer is a device which processes code. 10:25:07 for the purpose assembly was fine. compare forth to assembly and the goal posts change. 10:25:13 if you can do it in your head, then you ARE the computer :D 10:25:35 sylk how would forth have made a difference? 10:25:41 would the project have been done faster? 10:25:51 its been said that DNA is the software that controls the hardware of a cell. 10:25:57 * Speuler imagines wiggling the bits on the modem to chat to you 10:26:02 hehehe. 10:26:08 hahahahhaha 10:26:32 well I'm downloading mandrake90 disk 2 at the moment so I couldn't tell. 10:26:34 was that a 101111101110111 ? or a ..........0 ? 10:26:48 nonono get DEBIAN 10:26:51 sylk have you tried knoppix? 10:26:53 not madrake :) 10:26:57 knoppix is based on debian :D 10:27:07 * Speuler exceptionally agrees with i440r 10:27:16 heh 10:27:21 :) 10:27:24 im prejudiced against everything except debian :) 10:27:26 * Robert agrees too, for once. 10:27:28 gotta love that apt :) 10:27:31 Heh. 10:27:51 my custom machines run Linux From Scratch purely because I'm a bigot :) I use mandrake because that's what we agreed on at the office for linux. 10:27:54 < I440r> im prejudiced against everything except debian :) <--- you're a living quote-machine. 10:28:01 pfft apt. all of them are trying to emulate poorly freebsd's pkg_add ;) 10:28:54 well pkg_add sux too 10:29:07 only thing missing from debian that exists in bsd is "build world" 10:29:17 noe THAT i would love! 10:29:28 all executables compiled locally, optimized for my specific cpu 10:29:44 I'm surprised it doesn't have a "rule world", oh wait it does :) 10:29:51 Can't apt-get source do that? 10:29:51 it does :P 10:29:58 hahahah 10:30:00 no. atp-get source cant do that 10:30:02 you can 10:30:05 Bleh :P 10:30:12 pkg_add and the port system. 10:30:14 Anyway... precompiled binaries rule. 10:30:16 can't beat that can you? 10:30:19 you can "find out what source package the blah util is in" download and compile that 10:30:23 Epecially for pre-2000 computers :P 10:30:34 doing so for every single executable you have installed is a nightmare 10:31:42 problem with binaries I've found is they don't work unless you got them from the same source (eg mandrake) 10:31:53 otherwise you're better off with the source. 10:32:14 apt has quite a few binaries... 10:32:23 When I can't get it from apt, I get the sources. 10:32:29 However, that's not very oftn. 10:32:31 often 10:33:15 * gilbertbsd name drops freebsd again. 10:33:42 everyone has their preference :) the web server/database boxes run debian is that good enough? 10:33:55 * Speuler 's first job with a bsd system was, cracking it :) 10:34:03 haven't used freebsd. 10:34:04 ah really? 10:34:10 you should try it. 10:34:22 if you want security though, I hear openbsd is unbeatable. 10:34:33 depends on the apps you run 10:34:43 there was a weak point in an app 10:34:46 or openVMS if you swing that way. 10:35:19 took me about an hour to gain root privilege 10:35:26 security is a strange thing. How do you hack a machine without a bash prompt or C compiler? 10:35:42 sylk: consider netwerk services 10:35:43 * sylk is NOT any kind of expert 10:35:59 like? 10:36:06 there was "webmin" on the machine 10:36:26 it allowed to add users 10:36:34 ah 10:36:40 it also allowed to execute a pre- and a post-command :) 10:36:59 poorly written 10:37:15 so i sed'd the password fiile 10:37:55 and got a user which i added to run as uid 0 10:38:34 with that, i changed the root password 10:39:47 then you "0wn3d" it after you r00t3d it 10:40:03 xactly 10:40:21 (there's now debian running on that machine) 10:41:01 why did you need to crack it if you had physical access? 10:41:18 administrator was gone, root password unknown 10:41:31 take drive out and read in another system? 10:41:33 couldn't boot from floppy and make the partition visible 10:41:54 no, needed to pull some data from the system 10:42:00 ah 10:42:58 357MB of 700MB... only three more years left to download :) 10:43:22 sylk: debian net install pulls about 15 mb 10:43:31 gives you a 50 mb base system 10:43:44 from there, you extend as you like 10:43:50 yup. 10:44:44 I've tried debian. the vote went against me at distribution selection time. 10:45:00 --- quit: gilbertbsd (Remote closed the connection) 10:45:12 hmm.. quit the job :) 10:45:19 actually mandrake isn't too bad. 10:46:03 :) 10:47:03 can't. I'm one of the partners :) I didn't care too much since I'm not in the office that much. usually I'm out on site. 10:47:29 who overruled you ? 10:47:41 the other three :) 10:48:38 mandrake is populair with newbies 10:48:52 so is redhat 10:48:53 two of them are redhat mad. funny how the choice of linux is religious 10:49:14 * I440r needs a job :( 10:49:29 popularity of most linux distribution falls with increasing experience 10:49:37 I440r: what sort of consulting do you do? 10:49:38 notable exception is debian 10:49:43 real time embedded 10:49:47 c, assemberl or forth 10:49:49 it is unpopular with newbies :) 10:49:57 no oop crap 10:50:42 I use Linux From Scratch for most of the boxes. so I guess that is my favourite distribution. And thats only because those boxes are set up for particular tasks. 10:50:42 why no oop? 10:50:51 ive not had any paid work since august 2001 10:50:55 because its poo backwards 10:50:59 because OOP is object obfuscation 10:51:03 :l 10:51:07 thats a good way of putting it :) 10:51:13 * sylk is being facetious :) 10:51:15 but if you don't accept the buzz, you don't get the money :( 10:51:50 I440r: where are you based? 10:52:21 indiana usa 10:52:32 i work all over the country tho 10:52:43 and would even work overseas depending on whare 10:52:54 australia isnt off limits :) 10:53:00 hehehe a long way away from us. we're in the land of Oz. 10:53:33 cept the cities. australia has the highest violent crime rate in the world 10:53:51 and i cant bring my guns :P 10:54:03 highest? wow. 10:54:07 yes 10:54:21 ii think england is #2 or #3 10:54:30 gotta be famous for something. 10:54:36 this is all since these two countries banned all firearms 10:54:56 i think its in your blood, you KNOW you were all deported right :) 10:54:56 heh 10:55:13 I wouldn't know, my thirty bodyguards keep all the nasties away :) 10:55:30 :) 10:55:38 i carry mu kimber everywhere here 10:55:47 theres MY body guard :) 10:55:50 my grandparents paid their way from england. 10:55:57 :) 10:56:34 I've never even thought of owning a gun except when I was on the farm and we hunted foxes etc. 10:56:35 buy me a ticket, ill come work for you :) 10:56:38 also, none ofthe abcs were deported 10:56:49 nor their parents :) 10:56:58 abcs? 10:57:17 sylk: as ozzie, you should know ... 10:57:27 australian born chinese 10:57:41 ah... thats a new one for me. 10:58:05 i want a chinese ammerican gf. 10:58:07 9 more minutes then I'm off. :) 10:58:11 those are fscking gorgeous :) 10:58:20 what time is it there sylk ? 10:58:28 6am 10:58:34 * Speuler had an abc as gf a while ago 10:59:11 during my amsterdam time 10:59:16 I couldn't sleep so I got on the web for a few hours. four hours later :) 11:00:03 lol. i went to sleep at 7 am the other day. then i slept for 14 hours solid 11:00:19 i used to be able to stay up for 3 days without sleep 11:00:27 one all nighter kills me these days :P 11:01:14 done that too on a contract where we were working 60hour weeks. got home and slept for about 14 hours too... 11:01:28 I'm used to 40hours tops. 11:01:51 i was working 60+ hours on my forth a while back 11:01:54 * Speuler sleeps at the end of the month 11:02:25 on our team we believe that working more than 40hours is the sign of inefficiency or a tight project. we try to avoid both. 11:02:53 that probably makes us weird :) 11:03:05 :) 11:03:09 gimme a job :) 11:03:10 heh 11:03:38 i only work over 40 hours a week on a job i TRUELY love doing 11:03:47 most contracts dont come under that heading 11:04:13 hehe I'm going fruit picking in a week's time. thats the other thing weird about us... 11:04:54 not really ... 11:05:28 bye 11:05:30 * Speuler remembers peaches, nectarines and apricots 11:05:35 thanks for the fish :) 11:05:42 so long 11:05:54 heh 11:13:27 --- join: gNoam (trilluser@2Cust187.tnt4.vancouver.bc.da.uu.net) joined #forth 11:15:06 --- quit: sylk (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 11:17:06 --- part: gNoam left #forth 11:25:59 --- quit: wossname ("mmmphshek") 11:33:12 gnoam ? :) 11:45:27 --- join: lament (~lament@h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net) joined #forth 12:37:31 --- join: tathi (~josh@ip68-9-68-215.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 12:48:19 --- quit: I440r (Excess Flood) 12:48:34 --- join: I440r (~mark4@sdn-ap-030tnnashP0498.dialsprint.net) joined #forth 13:26:39 Hm. Is there a more efficient square root algorithm than a[n+1] = (x + x/a[n]) / 2 ? 13:26:54 whats x ? 13:26:54