00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.12.26 01:36:02 --- quit: lament ("mental mantle") 02:21:49 --- join: lament (~lament@h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net) joined #forth 02:36:26 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 02:37:23 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Client Quit) 04:08:51 --- join: sylk (search@dialup-230.174.220.203.acc01-geor-mor.comindico.com.au) joined #forth 04:10:20 anyone got experience implementing forth? 04:12:25 Most Forthers have. 04:12:50 That's one of the greatest advantages of Forth. 04:13:01 Easy to implement. 04:13:46 I'm interested in the overall process, what to do, what not to etc 04:14:09 Depends on your needs. 04:14:13 What is your goal? 04:15:23 my only real experience with forth like systems is my HP48GX calculator. What I want is a way to do graphics on my own device I have made. Currently I'm doing everything in assembler. I need a kernel etc 04:15:49 I guess I'm after a shell, a way of controlling the LCD, supporting various devices. 04:15:56 I'd recommend you to read "Moving Forth". 04:16:11 It's a great article about implementing Forth on different platforms. 04:16:31 http://www.zetetics.com/bj/papers/moving1.htm thanks 04:17:03 Yes. 04:17:31 Also, "Build your own Forth" on www.fig-uk.org talks about this topic. 04:17:53 Otherwise, checking how others have done it is always a good way. 04:18:18 http://isforth.clss.net/ http://www.colorforth.com/ http://www.ultratechnology.com/ 04:18:28 These pages might give you some ideas. 04:18:45 yeah, except I've seen a lot of the others and just got bogged down in their problems. 04:19:25 :) 04:19:31 Just look at the basic ideas. 04:19:41 And then try to design your own thing. 04:20:33 Anyway, I'm leaving now for a while. Talk to you later. 04:20:42 ok 04:20:56 thans 04:26:44 anyone got any advice on writing event based systems in forth? 05:04:54 hi 05:05:23 sylk: event based? what do u mean by that? 05:05:24 hi 05:05:50 eg a keyboard driver written in forth. 05:06:51 ? ... 05:07:03 r u talkin about a pc? 05:07:18 embedded gadget etc. not pc. 05:07:33 aha 05:07:42 I'm looking for architectural ideas. 05:08:05 hm... it highly depends on the keyboard size 05:08:24 keyb dimensions imean 05:08:29 why? the API should be the same? shouldn't it? 05:08:36 api :)) 05:08:40 no 05:09:39 usually its better 2 have an "api" specific 2 the actual keyboard or what ever 05:10:08 the 4th keyb api is the word KEY 05:10:11 I have a AVR microcontroller which interfaces a PCAT keyboard. the driver produces scancodes identical to the drive from a numeric keypad (10 digit+math) 05:10:42 nah! u r talkin about a pc keyb, u c? 05:11:00 Back. 05:11:47 so in forth you poll the keyboard using KEY? 05:11:49 sylk: Interesting... I'm planning to connect my own AVRs to a PC keyboard... any special hints you can give? 05:11:54 No. 05:11:58 Poll using KEY? 05:12:05 And get the key with KEY. 05:12:15 (Without the dot) 05:12:21 ah 05:12:36 So.. how dod you physically connect them? 05:13:34 my AVR gadget is basically a protocol converter. It has a PCAT keyboard (whatever that is: could be just the numeric part, a full part or a cordless full keyboard) 05:13:36 I've seen that the software-part of the communication is not so hard, but I'm wondering how to connect a PC keyboard. 05:14:16 basically its a UART on one side and a AT keyboard port on the other. 05:14:52 it sends an event via a network (not ethernet!) to my handheld. 05:15:04 Hm. 05:15:15 the handheld then accepts or denies it as a key event. I'm wanting to implement forth on the handheld... 05:15:19 I don't really follow you. Do you have any circuit schematics? 05:15:45 go to ATMEL's site. I used their app note. 05:15:52 Okay. 05:15:57 I got it here. 05:16:02 it works :) 05:16:08 But...I'm wondering how you physically connected it. 05:16:29 I ripped the port off a 386 05:16:58 Oh 05:17:13 thats just the PCAT connector. not any logic or anything 05:17:20 Yeah, I know. 05:17:27 But I need it anyway. 05:17:29 Hrm. 05:17:45 what do you mean "physically connected"? 05:17:50 I wonder if any of those i80186 based computers have a connector.... 05:18:16 Well... I mean, trying to solder the AVR directly to a keyboard seems like a Bad Idea(tm). 05:18:21 should be able to buy one I would have thought... I ripped one because it was nearby and the 386 had just died. 05:18:43 The only company I've seen them at, does not reply to my mails. 05:18:45 :~( 05:18:56 I didn't solder the keyboard directly to the AVR. mainly because eventually the AVR won't be in the implementation. 05:19:17 this is just a hobby of mine not a $$$ project. Yet. 05:20:02 * onetom tries 2 remoteboot enth. but unfortunately there is no etherboot support (& not even linux drv support) 4 his dwl-650+ pcmcia netcard 05:21:09 sylk: That was of course just a joke. I'm also just a hobbyist, many years of school ahead before I'll have to start making money. 05:21:34 :) 05:21:49 onetom: ? 05:21:51 I'll try to find out... 05:22:00 I have this external numeric keyboard. 05:22:16 sylk: which part was unclear? 05:22:23 Maybe I could try to use that one to play with, 05:22:34 "enth"? 05:24:08 sylk: www.ynet.com.au/sean 05:25:30 sylk: enth is an ans 4th & there is a color 4th built up on it & the whole system is bootable from a floppy disk (<200k) 05:25:31 sylk: btw, I'm working with a Forth VM on AVR, just in case you're interested. 05:28:41 colorforth? I tried that from chuck's website. I felt my head begin to explode... 05:29:03 robert: AVR is 8bit. are you THAT keen? 05:29:34 AVR is also harvard architecture. 05:30:27 I like colorforth because its a fresh approach. but I couldn't get my head around how to make the best use of it. 05:31:28 sylk: Exactly. That's why I make this VM, to be able to run code from e.g. an external EEPROM memory. 05:32:11 sylk: Besides, many Forths are implemented on 8-bit machines. My VM is relativley fast and not big (about 300 words). 05:32:30 sylk: Which makes it fit on everything from Tinys to Megas. 05:32:59 sylk: But, the main purpose is to be able to run programs from any location. Not just program memory. 05:33:24 my first AVR gadget was basically a "go do this" program. basically I just sent commands to read and write via UART and it did whatever and returned the result. a softcode VM I guess. most of the smarts in the controller, eg your python or VB program talking via serial port. 05:33:58 onetom: how easy is it to retarget? 05:34:18 That's what I did with my AVR when I got it, too. I really like being able to do that. 05:34:27 Hrm. 05:34:40 I'll play some Warcraft II with my sister now. See you soon. 05:35:41 thanks, byte 05:35:45 bye even 05:43:25 how many low level primitives in enth? 06:00:19 bbl 06:06:03 ok 06:06:10 enth is a lil bit bloated 06:06:49 and its mainly written in sasm (the author's - sean pringle's - asm) 06:07:48 and in forth & metacompiled (winforth or swiftforth by default but last nite i hacked it so it also works w gforth now) 06:07:53 is it written in itself (sasm written in enth?) 06:07:57 ah ok 06:08:08 sasm is ans 4th complaint 06:08:34 so, actually ... theoretically it can even compile itself 06:09:26 nowdays its the nicest way 2 play a lil w acolor4th 06:09:41 hmmm. 06:09:51 * sylk is currently trying to start it up under bochs 06:10:16 u wont succeed :) 06:10:32 Hm. What are the system requirements of enth? 06:10:37 tho, enth 2.06 works under bochs 06:10:48 but its 2 old & inconvenient 06:11:14 hmmm... 06:11:23 I take its the video card? 06:11:29 Robert: only a vesa 2.0 complaint videocard @least 800x600x15bit 06:11:57 OK. 06:12:05 * Robert checks it out. 06:12:37 sylk: there is a vgabios-lfb which supports vesa2.0 linear framebuffer modes not only in 8bit mode in theory 06:12:46 but it doesnt even work 06:13:00 imean, still doesnt work 06:13:56 hmmm 06:15:35 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 06:16:04 Hi serg. 06:16:11 so it won't run under bochs because bochs doesn't have the video card support it needs? 06:16:21 hi Robert 06:16:28 sylk: yes 06:16:42 sylk: but dont u have a spare old machine? 06:16:51 Serg_Penguin: merry xmas 06:16:51 * sylk asking the obvious :) 06:16:56 a 486 :) 06:17:04 what vga card? 06:17:06 lo 06:18:10 trident 9400 VLB 06:18:13 -> Robert what tutor on pmode will u advice me ? 06:18:50 Hmmm. 06:19:10 I found a good one at the OSdev resource senter. 06:19:16 it runs games that require vesa so I figure its possibly recent enough 06:19:17 sylk: iih.. doesnt sound 2 promising 06:19:17 from what did _you_ learned ? 06:19:20 http://www.nondot.org/sabre/os I think. 06:19:34 Serg_Penguin: From that page. 06:19:50 Robert: /me thx 2 06:20:19 :) 06:20:21 See you all. 06:20:27 * Robert will be back in an hour or so. 06:20:40 * Serg_Penguin puts link in hamster cheek warehouse 06:20:41 Thanks for the tip about enth. It seems very neat. 06:20:52 what tip ? 06:21:02 Actually, my own Forth language I am designing looks quite a bit like it. 06:21:22 Well.. he pointed out that enth is a nice Forth environment, and it really seems to be. 06:21:25 Robert: it IS ;) 06:21:26 I'll try it when I get back. 06:21:29 See you. 06:21:30 robert: got a URL? 06:21:45 * Serg_Penguin brb few mins 06:21:46 sylk: To...= 06:21:48 sylk: To...? 06:21:54 Robert: good luck in warcraft ;) 06:22:01 I won :P 06:22:06 I'm going out now. 06:22:10 ahhh 06:22:26 &any guess when will u come back? 06:22:42 ~16.00 CET 06:22:49 great 06:22:52 have a nice time 06:22:56 :) Thanks 06:24:07 robert: your forth VM... 06:24:51 onetom: http://bochs.sourceforge.net/doc/docbook/user/x2350.html 06:26:18 thanks for the "nondot" link. you answered a few other questions :) 06:28:19 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 06:30:30 does enth run on 486? 06:34:01 'morning 06:34:22 morning 06:34:57 * sylk notices the clock being 01:34 hmmm should be asleep! 06:35:30 aussi ? 06:36:02 indeed 06:36:08 yup. 06:36:37 'been here before ? 06:36:53 g'day mate :) 06:36:55 talking to brother while foolding with bochs and enth (sort of) 06:37:24 I think I've been on #forth once b4 06:37:46 well enth just crashed bochs2.0 anyway 06:37:51 doh 06:39:02 * Speuler_ notices nimda and alike activity was pretty low over christmas 06:39:22 only got 10% of the usual number of attacks 06:39:43 nimda? 06:40:05 iis intrusion software 06:40:57 at one point last year, more than 50% of internet activity consisted from spreading nimda 06:41:04 ah. I thought IIS was designed much like outlook express. fully supportive of viruses without limit. 06:41:33 that's why nimda and alikes were that succesful 06:42:05 some systems are still infected 06:42:15 using IIS is like saying "we don't care about security" or thats the opinion my brother has :) 06:45:29 i think your brother is right 06:46:53 I don't know much about web servers other than the time I wrote one because I couldn't figure out how to configure apache. 06:48:51 using forth ? 06:49:28 not that it was full featured or anything. no, wrote it in python. 06:51:22 Speuler_: /nick Speuler 06:51:28 hi, anyway 06:51:40 --- nick: Speuler_ -> Speuler 06:51:54 thanks 1tom 06:52:14 --- nick: sylk -> sylk_1 06:52:21 --- nick: sylk_1 -> sylk 06:52:51 sylk: hey u r from .au? 06:52:56 onetom: what did you want to talk about? 06:53:00 yes 06:53:17 sylk: its possible then the author of enth is ur neighbour ;) 06:53:59 Speuler: u were looking 4 me last night. do u remember why? 06:54:08 sylk: what did u mean by "nondot" url? 06:54:13 yes 06:54:42 one thing i forgot, the other was whether you know the wiki module of zope 06:55:18 i.e. how usable it is, how easy to setup and the like. whether it would be a useful component for forthfreak.net 06:55:31 dont know it very much, but we r using it w me friend as a documentation tool 06:55:56 2 ur satisfaction ? 06:55:58 Speuler: it seems its pretty smart 06:56:14 no problems @all 06:56:30 installation cost is 0 06:56:39 http://www.nondot.org/sabre/os 06:56:43 apt-get install zwiki, or sg like that 06:57:07 i've installed it on my local machine, but didn't look @ it yet 06:57:24 thought i's ask an expert first :) 06:57:25 sylk: ah, that 1. thats a very great site 06:57:26 indeed 06:57:53 a while ago I was interested in IDE etc. got the info elsewhere. the http://www.nondot.org/sabre/os site has it all... 06:58:20 Speuler: there is nothin 2 do w it, just add a zwiki product 2 zope, then its gonna work 06:58:41 but zope is required on the web server machine too ? 07:00:14 do i call the wiki module through a link from entry page to localhost:10000/wikistuff ? 07:05:13 just calling python ZWikiWeb won't do , missing globals. figure i need to look at the docs :) 07:06:20 ah 07:06:42 "add ZWiki Web to ZMI" 07:06:48 what's a ZMI ? 07:07:07 zope management interface 07:07:15 zope manager interface ? 07:07:18 is there a way f getting text out of a wiki into a PDF or other html format? 07:07:20 &of courese zope is required 07:07:20 ah. 07:07:33 sylk: wget? 07:09:12 * sylk looks around for a blunt and heavy object 07:09:27 :) 07:09:48 * Speuler didn't know you can create pdfs by use of blunt object 07:10:01 what other way is there :) 07:10:13 blunt object = docbook 07:10:21 what do u exactly want? 07:10:29 why pdf? 07:10:39 wiki pages r simple html pages 07:11:00 rendered from a simplified txt format 07:11:41 from docbook you can generate pdf,html,windowhelp(*shudder*) or whatever you want. 07:12:59 Back. 07:13:23 ack 07:13:43 SYN. 07:14:26 eof 07:14:43 control-z ? 07:16:09 be more cryptic 07:17:27 134520862 execute 07:17:47 "windows" 0 / 07:18:53 Not being cryptic takes the fun out of it. 07:19:02 Is it early or late down there? 07:19:29 18 minutes left on this connection. then I'm sleeping. 2:19AM 07:20:11 1tom: i'm stuck :( 07:20:29 Speuler: nah 07:20:41 how shall i help u 07:22:01 i've set up emergency user (access) with zpasswd.py, restarted zope, want to login in through /Zope/manage, but it refuses the user/passwd combination 07:23:03 "You are not authorized to access this resource." 07:23:56 /manage? 07:24:05 shall i also try it? 07:24:23 imeant simply /manage wo /Zope 07:25:12 http:/localhost:8080/manage : connection refused 07:25:16 http:/localhost:10000/manage : connection refused 07:25:33 http:/localhost:10000/Zope/manage : passwd dialog 07:25:47 http://localhost:9673/manage 07:26:18 assuming a default debian install 07:26:22 refused. i'll nmap this thing. is on a machine, not accessable through internet 07:26:27 debian, yes 07:28:09 cant really understand then.. 07:28:30 --- join: FML (~FML@pD9E4EAD7.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 07:28:47 Hm. I need a little bit of help with iptables., 07:28:47 jinglebellsjinglebellsjinglebellshmhmhmhmhm... :-) ;-) 07:29:16 :) hello fml 07:29:38 hmm 07:29:46 iptables -F OUTPUT 07:29:46 iptables -F INPUT 07:29:46 iptables -A OUTPUT -s 192.168.0.1 -j ACCEPT 07:29:46 iptables -A OUTPUT -d 192.168.0.1 -j ACCEPT 07:29:46 iptables -A OUTPUT -s 192.168.0.11 -d 192.168.0.0/24 -j DROP 07:29:51 didn't santa claus burn up in the atmosphere because he was travelling too fast? 07:29:59 That is on 192.168.0.11 07:30:10 Why can not 192.168.0.12 reach 192.168.0.11 ? 07:30:17 sylk: Oh, no! *cries* 07:30:43 Robert, what's your policy for input ? 07:30:57 hi onetom! hearing hungarian folk music right now... you like that stuff? 07:31:13 Speuler: Er.. no idea. :) 07:31:19 sylk: LOL :-) 07:31:35 and, why should 0.11 respond if output rules filters replies ? 07:32:07 Hm. 07:32:38 Robert, iptables -L -n should list policies as first lines 07:32:53 Got it to work now. 07:32:55 that's what the packets without rules default to 07:33:15 Do you know any SFTP client for Windows? 07:35:51 bye 07:36:49 Bye, 07:36:58 bye sylk 07:43:18 FML: yeah i like some of it 07:44:04 1tom: is there a default login/password if setting a new one failed ? 07:44:04 FML: mainly dance music from transylvania performed w moldvanian kaval & the like 07:44:37 Speuler: dpkg-reconfigure zope 07:44:45 Argh. I knew it, onetom is a vampire. 07:45:30 ? 07:46:50 Robert: wincommander know sftp, i assume.. 07:47:27 Robert: ah.. transylvania & vampire r related somehow? 07:47:51 plenty of "return outside function", with plone_scripts and wiki 07:48:01 what a piece of junk :) 07:48:20 huh? 07:48:26 is it sid? 07:48:30 Hmm. I found that putty did it. 07:48:30 nope 07:48:32 sarge 07:48:46 u shouldnt install everycrap 4 zope ;) 07:48:50 SyntaxError: 'return' outside function 07:48:50 File "/usr/lib/zope/lib/python/Products/CMFPlone/skins/plone_scripts/isIDAutoGenerated.py", line 22 07:48:50 return 1 07:48:56 even better :D 07:54:07 onetom: same here :-) the real original stuff, of course ;-) 07:54:44 onetom: i LOVE the kaval! 07:54:56 FML: i have 1 ;) 07:55:31 FML: & my gf also have a bulgarian 1 w now whistle in it 07:56:18 onetom: hey! thats great... will you perform in .de? ;-) 07:58:30 hehe. we r just amateurs (yet ;) 07:59:33 --- quit: sylk (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:13:29 onetom: There? 08:13:56 onetom: When you use the "address" color, when is the address pushed? Compiletime or runtime? 08:17:28 Hrm. 08:17:30 I found out... 08:17:37 * Robert should RTFM more often 08:26:14 Register The Fantastic Microcrap :) 08:28:45 Robert: dunno yet :) 08:29:08 Robert: & dont even know much about the postpone color 08:32:12 --- quit: lament ("but now I must depart.") 08:32:16 Robert: found out? could u explain it? 08:32:22 Ride To Friendly Michigan 08:32:54 Roast The Foul Meat 08:34:04 Radicalize Tiny Femal Mormons ? 08:37:47 1tom: i've deinstalled all of zope (except the docs), installed again (just zope, and zwiki), set user/passwd, restarted zope, opened Zope/manage. it keeps not accepting my name/passwd combination 08:41:41 hmm.. strange 08:42:14 zpasswd.py says password encryption defaults to SHA1 08:42:30 but it's in access unencrypted 08:54:31 --- quit: FML ("server going down for maintenance... cu bb") 08:55:32 --- join: mur (jukka@baana-62-165-187-72.phnet.fi) joined #forth 08:59:12 "If a yellow word is followed by a green space and/or word, it will be compiled as a literal, just like a number." 09:00:17 So.. I guess yellow->green or white->green add an implicit "literal". 09:01:43 But I'm thinking about if the white->green literal really is good, of if I should use the "literal" word or a variant of it. 09:01:47 Like.. 09:02:05 1 2 + # 09:02:19 Where # is an alias for literal. 09:34:43 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-QuebecCity-ppp81905.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 09:52:33 --- join: lament (~lament@h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net) joined #forth 10:21:29 --- join: I440r (~mark4@sdn-ap-031tnnashP0154.dialsprint.net) joined #forth 10:22:55 Hey. 10:23:18 hi 10:23:25 im only half here heh 10:24:09 Okay ;) 10:26:27 --- quit: wossname ("play go you barbaric bastards") 10:35:56 hmm 10:36:18 I440r, so is the alphabetic or numeral part of yours here? :) 10:36:43 heh 10:37:00 i220r ? 10:37:00 heh 10:45:41 --- quit: I440r ("bbl") 11:44:32 --- quit: lament ("mental mantle") 12:06:14 --- join: FML (~FML@pD950FF78.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 12:09:40 bonjour 12:10:54 terve FML 13:52:01 --- quit: Fractal (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 14:12:47 Good evening. 14:13:36 howdy robert 14:14:02 * Robert is working on a little Forth system. 14:15:03 ahaa! 14:15:10 mur! 14:15:16 how little is it? :-) 14:15:26 proteusguy: So far - not big at all ;) 14:15:37 proteusguy: Hopefully it won't get very big either. 14:16:54 Not very big, eh? That *is* little! :-) 14:17:20 Two assembly language functions ;) 14:17:33 Robert.again 14:17:35 But then again - I've only been coding during the breaks in a movie. 14:21:04 Hm. 14:21:21 Why do Forths traditionally use counted strings? 14:22:57 Perhaps in the tradition of RPN? Everythings a bit backwards. The concept of null-termination seems wrong. 14:23:32 Hrm. 14:23:45 Might be. I just think it sometimes feels uncomfortable. 14:23:58 how do you do hello world in forth? 14:24:34 : hello ." Hello world!" ; 14:24:36 In ANS. 14:24:44 There are 2^n other variants. 14:25:07 i want helloworld-variant2 14:25:16 robert: some operations go quicker with count strings 14:25:20 duh ." ! 14:25:21 :/ 14:25:23 I think size prefixed strings are easier to manage and more intuitive personally. Think of the PITA stuff C programmers had to deal with in strings. 14:25:32 i think pascal usesthe same string representation 14:25:39 yes it does 14:26:11 no need to scan string for its end to determine its length 14:26:21 Speuler: Yes. 14:27:02 When I think of it, it seems maybe not more convenient, but at least faster. 14:27:05 Even most C++ string implementations do this now. 14:27:14 : hello 36 base ! world hello u. u. ; 14:27:24 :) 14:27:35 ;) 14:27:55 not quite ... 14:28:08 needs to switch to base before compiling the literals 14:28:32 : hello [ 36 base ! ] .... ; ? 14:29:35 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@ip68-14-9-133.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 14:30:16 Hi Herkamire. 14:30:28 : exchange dup @ -rot ! ; : base36 36 base exchange ; : u.36 base36 swap u. base ! ; base36 : hello world hello u.36 u.36 ; base! 14:30:32 :)) 14:31:05 ...just to make a simple task less simple. 14:37:24 Hi Robert :) 14:39:36 I preffer: .( Hello, World!) 14:40:08 It makes me think of comics. 14:41:13 Robert: thought bubbles... I can see it 14:41:25 does isforth work under cygwin? just curious... 14:43:28 Try ;) 14:44:40