00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.12.24
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01:23:29 <Robert> Morning all.
01:28:16 <lament> time of day, certainly.
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02:36:59 <sylk> anyone made their own forth on bare metal?
02:38:40 <sylk> bit slow?
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05:30:41 <Speuler> 'morning
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06:05:48 <Robert> Morning, Speuler.
06:12:12 <Speuler> prettige kerst, the_rob
06:12:49 <Robert> Ehm..right.
06:13:49 <Speuler> you northlings must be full of joy now
06:14:37 <Robert> Since Donald Duck is on?
06:14:54 <Speuler> since the winter solstice
06:15:13 <Robert> Oh. Sure. It's bright all day long suddenly.
06:16:27 <Speuler> i suppose most northern are born july...october
06:17:11 <Robert> Hm.
06:17:19 <Robert> None in my family is.
06:17:33 <Robert> And most other people I know aren't.
06:17:55 <Speuler> hm
06:18:51 <Robert> March/April seems to be common, and also December.
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06:19:11 <Robert> Oops.
06:19:21 <Robert> Actually, two in my family are born in September.
06:19:33 <Robert> But I still don't think it's THAT common.
06:22:01 <lament> Is it winter or summer in the southern hemisphere?
06:23:01 <Speuler> middle of summer now
06:23:21 <Speuler> beach parties
06:23:35 <Speuler> UV-bathing
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06:34:51 <Robert> Hello tathi.
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06:37:21 <tathi> hey Robert 
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07:13:12 <Robert> Hi.
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07:40:44 <iangreen> yo
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07:48:01 <Herkamire> hi
07:48:18 <wossname> hello
07:49:35 <Herkamire> morning
07:49:50 <Herkamire> anybody programming in forth?
07:50:04 <XeF4_> at this moment or recently?
07:50:12 <Robert> Hey wossname.
07:50:29 <XeF4_> not at this moment, I'm sitting on IRC, but recently yes.
07:57:02 <Herkamire> XeF4_: recently works :)
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08:13:19 * XeF4_ weighs merits/demerits of implementing a colorforth VM for MacPPC
08:13:36 <tathi> sounds good to me :)
08:13:37 <XeF4_> demerits: takes time I'd like to spend on other things
08:14:00 <XeF4_> merits: I need _a_ VM and nothing else seems suitable
08:21:37 <iangreen> heh
08:21:46 <iangreen> why does this first ; not compile my word?
08:21:46 <iangreen> : makebuf ( addr n - )
08:21:46 <iangreen> 4 \ allot ;
08:21:46 <iangreen> ;  ok
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08:23:36 <tathi> '\' makes the rest of the line a comment
08:23:50 <tathi> probably you mean 4 / allot
08:24:10 <iangreen> oops :)
08:24:22 <tathi> :)
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08:29:04 <iangreen> whats a good 4th w/ with debugger for linux?
08:29:11 <iangreen> -with
08:29:43 <Speuler> iangreen, gforth is not too bad
08:29:51 <Speuler> has a debugger too
08:30:20 <Speuler> not bad for newbies because it does not tend to hang upon programming errors
08:30:22 <XeF4_> iangreen: isforth is reasonably ok, except that has >15 years of weird cruft
08:30:34 <XeF4_> er
08:30:35 <XeF4_> wait
08:30:41 <XeF4_> bigforth, that's what I meant to type
08:31:01 <Speuler> bigforth is ok but hangs easier on errors
08:31:48 <XeF4_> gforth gets corrupted on errors, you just don't notice it until later
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08:32:49 <Speuler> 0 >r  
08:32:59 <Speuler> isforth: segfault
08:33:16 <XeF4_> bigforth: segfault. gforth: sig11, but gforth catches sig11
08:33:18 <Speuler> gforth: "invalid memory address"
08:33:30 <Speuler> bigforth: probably segfault
08:33:42 <XeF4_> actually. bigforth does catch that
08:33:51 <Speuler> dos forth: hang :)
08:34:08 <Speuler> winforth: ??
08:34:13 <Speuler> any experience ?
08:34:21 <XeF4_> difference is that bigforth is native-coded.  Corrupting compiled tokens in gforth usually gets caught later on.
08:34:43 <XeF4_> corrupting compiled code in bigforth causes the corrupted code to get executed directly
08:34:59 <Speuler> ok
08:35:01 <Speuler> 0 @
08:35:09 <Speuler> segfault versus illegal address
08:35:12 <XeF4_> caught by both gforth and bigforth
08:35:13 <Speuler> no corruption
08:35:34 <XeF4_> bigforth usually survives invalid fetches easily enough
08:36:33 <Speuler> that's good. because, if a forth segfaults too easily, it might scare newbies off
08:36:52 <Speuler> educative forth does not need to be production forth
08:37:38 <Speuler> iangreen, : problem is, forth allows you do do what the os or the cpu may not allow you to do
08:37:52 <XeF4_> gforth is imho not such a good educational forth since it is not written in forth and even simple primitives have monstrously large code definitions generated by gcc
08:38:02 <Speuler> also, the language does not keep you form doing what may be unreasonable
08:38:05 <Speuler> from
08:38:26 <Speuler> XeF4_, bigforth isn't written in forth neither
08:38:27 <XeF4_> neither do C/C++ and people are more than happy to learn that.
08:38:34 <XeF4_> Speul: it isn't?
08:38:42 <Speuler> it has an asm kernel
08:38:52 <Speuler> but ain't no metacompiler
08:38:59 <XeF4_> it has an ASM kernel, but it certainly is metacompiled
08:39:09 <Speuler> your're sure about that ?
08:39:16 <XeF4_> yes
08:39:50 <Speuler> then consider my statement about not being a metacompiler as nonexistant :)
08:41:23 <Herkamire> my favorite thing about gforth, is that if it get's a broken pipe signal it catches it, and tries to print "Broken Pipe"
08:41:25 <Speuler> iangreen, : use whatever forth is advised too you, and if it bombs to often during your experiments, have a look at gforth
08:41:26 <XeF4_> Speuler: there is a loader written in C, but all that does is mmap a rwx arena, copy the bigforth image there and jump to it
08:42:00 <Herkamire> which, (if your connection has failed or something) causes a proken pipe signal
08:42:23 <XeF4_> does it eventually give up?
08:42:27 <Herkamire> no
08:42:50 <Herkamire> you have to kill it with -9 I think
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08:46:42 <Speuler> both bigforth and gforth have a disadvantage
08:46:54 <Speuler> quite a lot of words in there
08:47:08 <Herkamire> gforth doesn't quit on a term signal either
08:47:21 <Speuler> both may intimidate a newbie
08:47:37 <XeF4> but eg eforth may also intimidate a newbie with too few
08:47:40 <XeF4> brb
08:48:00 <Speuler> but winforth should be worse :)
08:53:12 <XeF4> though when I first tried Forth seriously, I tried gforth and wondered why on earth they couldn't put all those words in modules or so
08:54:45 <Speuler> the are. several files, but mamy of those will be loaded during make
08:54:58 <Speuler> many
08:55:17 <XeF4> but that isn't what is visible to the user when he starts gforth
08:55:35 <XeF4> a live forth world with 5e666 words in one vocabulary is
08:55:44 <XeF4> then again, it wasn't that serious an obstacle
08:57:41 <XeF4> I guess I was just trying to say "yeah it's a bit intimidating, but it never prevented me or anyone else in here from learning it anyway"
08:58:22 <Speuler> i say that from own experience
08:58:31 <Speuler> i mean to say "i can't..."
08:59:37 <Speuler> megaforth. guaranteed to contain more than 100k words in the kernel alone
09:01:10 <XeF4> ->sauna, bbl
09:01:34 <iangreen> EXPECT is ( addr n - ) right?
09:01:50 <Speuler> iangreen, expect is obsolete
09:02:14 <Speuler> recent standard replaced it against accept
09:02:50 <Speuler> which is  ( addr n1 -- n2 )
09:03:23 <Speuler> but for expect, you're right
09:03:28 <iangreen> obsolete?
09:03:38 <iangreen> replaced it *with* accept you mean?
09:03:57 <iangreen> so accept pushes the number retreived on the stack I take it
09:04:00 <iangreen> makes more sense ;)P
09:04:00 <Speuler> disadvantage of expect is, it doesn't tell you how many chars have actually entered, except by a kludge
09:04:06 <iangreen> *nod*
09:04:08 <iangreen> I understand.
09:04:22 <Speuler> the kludge is, fetching span
09:04:36 <iangreen> what's span? :)
09:04:50 <Speuler> a variable, into which expect writes the number of chars entered
09:04:59 * Speuler shudders
09:05:10 <iangreen> lol!
09:05:15 <iangreen> that's horrible
09:05:32 <iangreen> ok, I need help storing memory addresses in a variable... im sure it's just i have lousy code...
09:05:39 <iangreen> : testread
09:05:39 <iangreen> ptr here dup 10 allot dup expect ! ; 
09:05:50 <iangreen> want to be able to go like, ptr @ @ ? :)
09:05:55 <iangreen> does that make any sense
09:06:12 <iangreen> so I could store 10 string pointers in "variable ptr 9 allot"
09:06:37 <Speuler> what is ptr supposed to do ?
09:06:44 <iangreen> it's an array
09:06:47 <iangreen> of pointers
09:06:55 <Speuler> ah
09:06:55 <iangreen> I'm trying to store a pointer in ptr
09:07:05 <iangreen> the address to the string I allocate&expect 
09:07:09 <Speuler> testread ( n -- )  ?
09:07:19 <iangreen> nope
09:07:21 <iangreen> ( -- )
09:07:25 <iangreen> just playing
09:07:36 <iangreen> so I allot stuff to here
09:07:39 <Speuler> what array element do you want to write the new string address to ?
09:07:40 <iangreen> and try to store here in ptr
09:07:41 <iangreen> ?
09:07:47 <iangreen> Speuler: to ptr ...
09:07:51 <iangreen> ptr address !
09:08:05 <Speuler> no. an array does ( n -- addr )
09:08:11 <Speuler> n specifies the array element
09:08:14 <iangreen> it's a variable though
09:08:17 <Speuler> ah
09:08:19 <Speuler> ok
09:08:20 <iangreen> variable ptr 9 allot
09:08:24 <iangreen> : testread
09:08:25 <iangreen> ptr here dup 10 allot dup expect ! ; 
09:08:39 <iangreen> should be 10 before expect :)
09:08:41 <iangreen> i guess
09:08:45 <iangreen> hehe
09:08:47 <Speuler> : array  create cells allot does> swap cells +  ;
09:08:51 <Speuler> 10 array foo
09:08:55 <Speuler> 0 foo  u.
09:09:00 <Speuler> 1 foo u.
09:09:00 <Speuler> 2 foo u.
09:09:11 <iangreen> I know but I want to be able to do it this way
09:09:15 <iangreen> I'm still learning the basics
09:09:22 <iangreen> is there any reason I shouldn't store addresses in a normal variable?
09:09:42 <iangreen> Ok, i guess it is silly im not using an aray
09:09:44 <iangreen> ;)
09:09:54 <iangreen> but lets pretend i just want to store one
09:09:57 <iangreen> pointer
09:10:00 <iangreen> variable ptr
09:10:01 <Speuler> sure
09:10:17 <Speuler> no intention to dogmatize you
09:10:18 <iangreen> so then i do ptr addr ! 
09:10:22 <iangreen> and ptr @ @ ?
09:11:03 <iangreen> and if so, can I do here dup ptr swap !
09:11:08 <iangreen> to accomplish that?
09:11:11 <Speuler> here dup ptr ! 10 dup allot expect
09:12:43 <iangreen> cheers
09:12:57 <Speuler> here 10  2dup allot ptr ! expect
09:13:04 * iangreen continues forth
09:13:08 <iangreen> pun intended :)
09:15:13 <Speuler> how long have you been learning forth now ?
09:15:36 <iangreen> um few months on and off
09:16:02 <Speuler> knowing other languages ?
09:16:05 <iangreen> yes
09:16:33 <iangreen> I learned backwards: Java->C->FORTH
09:16:38 <Speuler> what made you giving forth a try ?
09:16:51 <iangreen> well, it's the best
09:17:06 <iangreen> I also need to learn ASM
09:17:19 <Speuler> there are as many best languages as people having opinions about it
09:17:20 <iangreen> but forth interest me much more, as a high level programmer
09:17:31 <iangreen> yep, but FORTH in my opinion is the best
09:17:40 <iangreen> as far as a language to tell the machine to do something
09:17:53 <iangreen> nothign else has the philosophy of FORTH
09:17:55 <Speuler> it does have unmatched characteristics
09:18:03 <iangreen> it's truely in a world of its own
09:18:12 <iangreen> C is really cool and really useful and practical
09:18:23 <iangreen> but something about forth just really makes me want to learn it and use it :)
09:18:54 <Speuler> forth people are sometimes scoulded to belong to a religious movement
09:19:10 <Speuler> which is bullshit in my humple opinion
09:19:16 <iangreen> well I understand why
09:19:17 <Speuler> humble
09:19:54 <iangreen> I think it's bullshit too
09:20:13 <Speuler> i'm sure that most forthers would immediately jump train if they encounter an equally powerful alternative 
09:20:20 <iangreen> indeed
09:20:30 <iangreen> agree
09:20:44 <iangreen> i like forth because it offers what other languages do not
09:20:51 <Speuler> that's proably why asm knowledge is not uncommon to forthers
09:20:57 <iangreen> interactive development... 
09:21:08 <iangreen> simple, extensible language
09:21:20 <Speuler> best of both worlds. lots of control, but short development cycle
09:21:22 <iangreen> true power & control
09:21:40 <iangreen> yah
09:22:08 <Speuler> i've been doing quite a lot of development for stand-alone forth systems
09:22:17 <Speuler> where forth doubles as operational system
09:22:48 <Speuler> makes sense in such an environment
09:23:15 <Speuler> as an all-in-one solution
09:23:30 <iangreen> yeah
09:29:35 <iangreen> damn, isforth has no array
09:29:42 <iangreen> hehe
09:29:48 <iangreen> all the better
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09:51:52 <Speuler> iangreen, easy to add
09:56:25 <iangreen> indeed
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09:57:20 <Speuler> and an addition to your personal library
09:57:52 <Speuler> can look up things there how you've done them before
10:04:10 <Speuler> : cls  $1b emit ." [2J" 0 0 at  ;
10:05:00 <iangreen> hee
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10:05:55 <Speuler> guess you missed that one
10:06:31 <Speuler> i did :)
10:15:10 <iangreen> makes sense i think
11:33:22 <XeF4> back
11:35:49 <XeF4> Speul: in some forths that doesn't work because the fscking forth outputs scrolling nonsense after the $1b is emitted
11:35:57 * XeF4 has seen that at least with bigforth
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11:48:03 <Speuler> XeF4, : some forth or the terms they run in don't support VT100/ANSI, true enough. that was for isforth, works there
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11:48:51 <Speuler> XeF4, at least when running from an xterm
11:49:17 <XeF4> Speuler: bigforth on ANSI requires con! instead of emit to guarantee the char is output bare and untouched
11:49:20 <XeF4> but *nod*
11:49:58 <Speuler> ' page alias cls
11:50:18 <Speuler> but, there's no "page" in isforth
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11:51:20 <Speuler> actually, "cls" is very basicky, or msdossy
11:51:46 <XeF4> 9very msdossy
11:51:58 <XeF4> since other basics than gwbasic usually used home or clear or whatnot
11:52:22 <Speuler> clear ? recycle unued memory
11:52:25 <Speuler> unused
11:52:43 <XeF4> clear screen and move cursor to  to 1,1
11:53:02 <XeF4> same as home
11:53:19 <XeF4> home was on Applesoft basic at least, don't remember on which was clear
12:19:11 <Speuler> I'll go visiting the freaks across the road :)
12:19:26 <Speuler> cu later
12:20:02 <Speuler> hope i can send you a photo :))
12:20:23 <Speuler> the place is really decorated
12:20:32 <Speuler> not not as one might expect.
12:21:22 <Speuler> even my bus has been integrated into presentation technology
12:21:39 <Speuler> (my bus is parked there)
12:23:32 * XeF4 set his beer in the corridor and now it is too cold
12:23:49 <Speuler> microwave it 5 seconds
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13:04:24 <onetom> merry xmas, all
13:09:29 <iangreen> u 2
13:09:37 <onetom> whatsup
13:09:46 <iangreen> nothin much
13:09:50 <iangreen> just got back from library
13:09:58 <iangreen> waiting for work to end
13:09:59 <iangreen> u ?
13:11:41 <onetom> im waiting 4 the present handing
13:11:50 <onetom> it 22:14 here
13:12:34 <onetom> i showed flux 2 me father as a half xmas present
13:13:06 <onetom> the other half of it will b those apps i plan 2 develop 4 him
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14:18:54 <onetom> hello robert!!!
14:20:08 <onetom> what was ur xmas present? ;)
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16:15:10 <XeF4> onetom: your father is a forth coder?
16:15:53 <Robert> onetom: Candy, money, electronics, a book, some coins, some tools, etc.
16:16:52 <iangreen> onetom is lucky :)
16:16:58 <iangreen> i wish my dad knew forth
16:17:00 <iangreen> :)
16:17:01 <iangreen> hehe
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18:09:57 <onetom> XeF4: he is a hw designer in fact :) he taught me 4th when i was ~7
18:10:27 <onetom> Robert: electronics? could u b more specific? (an f21? ;)
18:11:17 <onetom> iangreen: what is ur dad?
18:11:27 <onetom> dads job
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21:13:30 <iangreen> im not close to my dad
21:13:38 <iangreen> he works for medical examiner office
21:13:54 <iangreen> coroner's investigator
21:14:06 <iangreen> i got into computers on my own 
21:14:32 <iangreen> played lost of games on my apple iie at grandma's house :)
21:14:34 <iangreen> lots
21:42:54 <onetom> aha
21:43:19 <onetom> hello lament. how was ur xmas?
21:51:02 <lament> hi
21:51:08 <lament> i don't celebrate christmas
21:51:41 <onetom> how come?
21:52:04 <onetom> r there any religious reasons?
21:52:04 <lament> I just don't
21:52:07 <lament> no
21:52:14 <onetom> okay
21:52:23 <lament> Christmas is not an universal holiday
21:52:27 <lament> s/an/a
21:52:51 <onetom> sure
22:05:06 <onetom> what r u doing @ the moment?
22:05:30 <lament> nothing, as usual
22:05:51 <onetom> :)
22:06:12 <onetom> have u tried enth+flux?
22:06:30 <lament> A bit
22:06:59 <onetom> nah. ive just managed 2 make is compileable using gforth
22:07:27 <iangreen> im not celebrating christmas anymore
22:07:46 <iangreen> i just learned of its true origin, which only reinforces this idea
22:07:47 <onetom> i plan 2 hack it so it can word in monochrome
22:08:07 <onetom> iangreen: that is?
22:08:20 <onetom> s/word/work/
22:08:46 <onetom> 4 the color blinds AND 4 mono laptops
22:09:17 <onetom> of course i also plan 2 make it work in text mode again
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22:26:31 <onetom> mornin
22:26:55 <Serg_Penguin> hi
22:29:15 <Serg_Penguin> thinking hard on Forth OS problems, i decided what 'compressed' src maybe used as executable file format coz of it's fast compile speed,          but plain text has too much advantages 4 me at edit stage
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.12.24