00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.12.18 00:13:04 --- quit: lament (Remote closed the connection) 00:13:50 --- join: lament (~lament@h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net) joined #forth 01:05:36 --- join: adu (~andrew@dsl-64-130-166-225.telocity.com) joined #forth 01:06:10 hi 01:07:51 hi 01:23:32 Hey. 01:24:40 : so ." This channel is very very quiet" ; 01:24:43 so 01:24:46 ;) 01:25:38 ;) 01:25:41 It is... 01:25:45 I just came back from school. 01:25:55 I'll return in about two hours. 01:26:04 heh 01:27:12 * Robert wish that he hets his new computer soon >:| 01:27:29 They said my mom's new one would arrive in November, and it's not here yet. 01:27:49 When it comes, we'll reorganize the whole network, and I will get her old one. 01:28:26 adu: yeah its is kinda silent lately 01:28:39 adu: so feel free 2 speak ;) 01:29:31 Yes, come up with an interesting forth-related discussion! 01:42:31 Robert: i have some faint idea 01:42:40 ok 01:42:58 ive seen some days b4 that color4th src can b reduced 01:43:24 by a ratio of 1/6 by simply "half compiling" it during editing 01:43:36 tex fonts r also programs 01:44:26 if they could b represented using the mentioned "compression" scheme 01:44:50 we can achieve a fix 1/6 compression ratio 01:44:52 half compiling? 01:45:11 yes 01:45:39 u replace every reference of a word+the delimiting space 01:46:05 w an address of the definition of that word in the sources 01:46:52 this source representation technique also makes the compiling faster 01:47:13 by moving some of the compiler complexity 2 the editor 01:47:55 also moving the processor requirements of dictionary searches from compile time 2 edit time 01:48:46 this requires a more complex editor & an unusually editing experience which is different from simple text editing 01:49:01 but not much different & not more complex... 01:49:11 so its worth 2 do the things this way 01:49:28 tho, i dont have any experience this field yet 01:49:47 ...in this field 01:50:41 adu: download enth&flux from http://www.ynet.com.au/sean/ 01:50:51 uh, what is it? 01:50:53 adu: and have a look & source.html 01:51:14 its a standalone "4thOS" 01:51:39 enth (n'th) is the ans kernel 01:51:46 & flux is the color4th over it 01:52:44 like a booting OS? 01:54:07 exactly 01:54:12 brb 01:57:49 what platform? 01:58:15 x86? 02:04:55 --- part: adu left #forth 02:12:47 Robert: doesnt this guy have http access? i gave him the url.. 02:12:55 --- nick: onetom_ -> onetom 02:13:32 Welcome 02:13:32 ... to Enth. This is an experimental Forth written as a stand alone system for the 80386 PC or above. I 02:13:43 these r the 1st sentences of http://www.ynet.com.au/sean/intro.html 02:14:06 what is the 1st link - after 2 sentences - on the homepage i gave... 02:14:20 its terrible how lazy ppl can b sometimes.. 02:28:53 Hmm. 02:29:14 I'm lazy, too :P 02:29:28 But I'll check it out, is it anything you can recommend? 02:29:57 recommend?!!!? ABSOLUTELY!!! 02:30:18 im planning 2 make it runnable from bochs 02:30:26 Calm down, calm down :P 02:30:35 so even tathi & herkamire can play w it on their macs 02:30:52 :)) 04:27:36 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 05:38:45 'morning 05:38:53 Good "morning". 05:38:58 ah 05:39:03 awake :) 05:40:48 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 05:54:59 http://www.ultratechnology.com/f70ca.html <-- old Forth code looks odd :) 05:58:13 Robert: there's not much diff between "old" and "new" forth in terms of how ti "looks". that's more determined by the style of the author 05:58:23 it 06:00:05 I just mean that it looks a little bit different than "modern" (ANS/F83/etc.-style) code. 06:00:18 what exactly does look different ? 06:00:29 That is, different word names. 06:00:41 the *DUP ? 06:00:57 And other words. 06:01:04 Er...I unloaded that page. 06:01:14 afair, *DUP never was standard 06:01:23 it was -dup before ?dup 06:01:54 so, a definition of *DUP could be new forth just as well as old forth 06:02:53 in fact, it seems to be a different definition than ?DUP anyway 06:02:56 i.e. not a standard word 06:05:24 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 06:06:32 Hi Herkamire 06:12:39 --- join: Radek (~radek@ilja.moraviapress.cz) joined #forth 06:12:54 Hi Robert 06:13:01 welcome Radek 06:15:31 Hello, Radek. 06:29:48 --- quit: lament ("mental mantle") 07:00:42 hello 08:09:11 --- join: tathi (~josh@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 08:25:38 --- join: gilbertbsd (~knoppix@67.97.122.120) joined #forth 08:34:09 --- nick: Speuler -> PhoodPhrenzy 09:52:24 --- join: I440r (~I440r@sdn-ap-032tnnashP0366.dialsprint.net) joined #forth 09:58:37 Hey :) 09:59:08 hi 10:00:24 * Robert reads through articles on ultratechnology.com 10:32:29 --- join: neobrat (~~jeff_tkd@h-64-105-21-62.DNVTCO56.covad.net) joined #forth 10:35:13 lol this channel IS getting bigger :) 10:35:21 pity your all a bunch of lazy idlers :P 10:35:22 like me :) 10:35:29 10:35:33 how is it getting bigger? 10:35:41 lost of ppl in here now :) 10:35:54 remember, i spent alot of time in here with NOBODY else in here :P 10:36:57 ah lots of idlers. 10:37:38 i440r: hows isforth coming? 10:37:39 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 10:37:50 its the same now! instead of having Zero quiet people you now have n quiet people at any time. 10:38:06 not too bad, im trying to finish dns querys 10:38:22 for forth? 10:38:29 im just being a bit lazy is all, instead of coding ive been reading sifi ebooks for the past week :P 10:38:44 yes, im coding a resolver for isforth 10:38:45 see the new star trek movie yet? 10:38:49 not me 10:39:01 me either... wondering if it is any good 10:39:03 prolly wont watch it till it comes on tv :P 10:39:16 ill let you knnow in a couple of years or so :)P 10:39:26 im hoping to see Two Towers this weekend 10:39:33 but its prolyl sold out already 10:40:29 im totally disinterested in that, the lead actor looks ghey to me and the books were so fscking boring too 10:40:43 * neobrat gasps. 10:40:47 they should have made a movie out of dragonlance instead 10:40:52 I loved to books personally 10:40:59 they were totally "blah" 10:41:07 hickman and weiss can kiss my hairy ass 10:41:09 read david eddings or weise & hickman 10:41:19 eddings is ok 10:41:21 weiss 10:41:32 ever reach Raymond Feist? (The Riftware Saga) 10:41:38 That's my favorite 10:41:42 the dragonlance books are the ONLY books ive ever been able to read twice 10:41:46 feist is good 10:41:47 reach = read 10:42:19 is the riftware saga complete yet ? 10:42:30 for a long time now 10:42:32 i was reading it way back 10:42:34 heh 10:42:40 its just 4 books 10:42:50 ive not baught a book in about 8 years now, been too busy 10:42:55 but there were lots of extra novels he wrote based on it 10:43:03 i know the feeling 10:43:27 im a book a day reader when i get going 10:43:28 my opinion: if it can't be said in < 200 pages, I haven't got the time 10:43:44 lol dont read "time enough for love" 10:43:46 then heh 10:43:50 thats sifi tho 10:43:55 heh 10:44:07 i really hate that jordan author (robert jordan?) 10:44:08 that took me 3 days :P 10:44:20 err i sorta like him a little, but he isnt the best 10:44:31 the absolute WORST fantasy book i ever read is the dark tower 10:44:47 dark tower? isn't that stephen king? 10:44:48 it all "once upon a time ... " 10:44:58 kiddy talk all the way through 10:45:18 but thers non way you would read it to a child because its full of words like fuck and pussy and shit like that 10:45:25 but it treats you like a KID 10:45:26 once upon a time there was a boy named CM and a girl named ER. 10:45:34 lol 10:45:37 hehe 10:45:53 they are facts see? the vehicle is simply that. 10:46:11 thers also another writer whose books i think are realy boring too but i cant remember his name 10:46:36 i baught one of his books after reading dragonlance for the first thime, got half way thru his first book and threw it in the trash 10:46:45 never looked at any other book by that author 10:46:48 R.A. Salvatore is ok, too 10:46:50 boring doesnt even come close 10:47:06 not sure i read him 10:47:17 i like the pern books :) 10:47:20 he's all the Drow books 10:47:28 oh god, not McAffery! 10:47:36 i may have read him, not sure 10:47:39 let's describe the sunset for 30 pages! 10:47:41 yea and i usually dont like female writers :P 10:47:54 she isnt like that or i would have got bored with her :) 10:48:16 i tried 1 book and couldnt get past 3 pages 10:48:32 im trying to remember the name of that other boring author 10:48:45 or his books, its on the tip... just cant seem to spit it out :) 10:48:52 was it the guy that writes to Xanth series? 10:49:01 no, i liked those 10:49:02 Piers Anthony? 10:49:11 piers anthony is awesome 10:49:28 I only read the first one, Spell For Chameleon - I like it, but not enough to keep reading more of his books 10:49:28 read his immortality series!!!! 10:49:36 incarnations of immortality 10:49:46 incarnations is coolk 10:49:58 Probably one of my favorite books is Ender's Game 10:49:58 it starts out with the lead character about to commit suiside 10:50:08 and death terns up early heh 10:50:15 also one of my fave 10:50:22 orson scot card is very good 10:50:35 ive only read teh first of that series but i just downloaded them ALL in ebook form :) 10:50:38 check that -- Ender's Game is good -- Orson Scott Card blows 10:50:43 i had my sis buy me enders game last xmas 10:51:17 Sorry, but I live in Utah (Mormon central) and Orson Scott Card writes about 20 mormon books a year it seems 10:51:30 thers another series that i liked, also by a female writer but she takes like 8 years to research each book before writing ie heh 10:51:44 the mammoth hunters was teh first book, i cant remember the name of the author or the series 10:51:55 havent heard of it 10:52:11 what about non-scifi or fantasyu? u read Tom Clancy? 10:52:16 jean m auel i think 10:52:18 i do 10:52:26 clancy is good :) 10:52:32 I like the older clancy -- not the newer stuff 10:52:39 Red October is still my favorite 10:52:42 alister mclean is one of my fave \ 10:52:43 and Patriot Games 10:53:50 And for "cheese" books, I really loved "Bridges of Maddison County" actually, really fun to read 10:54:13 nuthin like reading about old people doin it 10:55:40 I440r: Did you even watch the Fellowship Of The Ring? 10:55:49 The movie was great 10:58:53 he is dead now of corse... 10:58:53 he wrote teh guns of naverone (navarone?) 10:58:53 etc etc etc 10:58:53 erm who wrote the mote in gods eye 10:58:53 sifi... 10:58:53 i forget 10:58:55 thats an awesome book too 10:58:57 it was a dual effort, i cant remember the names of the authors tho 10:58:59 been a while 10:59:01 larry niven and jerry pournelle :) 10:59:03 nope. boring crap 10:59:05 one of the most boring authors i ever read 10:59:39 i musta had massive lag -- or that was that fastest typing ever :) 10:59:57 the mote in gods eye has a cool twist i seem to recall, much like enders game did 11:00:02 right at the end 11:00:12 but its not as good a twist as enders game heh 11:00:18 that hits you like a 2 by 4 :) 11:00:26 yeah it does 11:01:00 oh, well, off for lunch 11:01:05 :) 11:01:09 --- quit: neobrat () 11:54:26 --- join: dunno (~dunno@p508053B3.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 12:12:43 --- join: gTs2 (gTs2@212.205.244.240) joined #forth 12:13:57 hello 12:14:53 hello gts2 12:15:22 i am having dns issues 12:15:31 is tehre some sort of network troubleshooting prog 12:15:32 like 12:15:52 one that sends dummy requests and tells me which of them succeesd 12:15:58 "succeed" 12:16:09 ping 12:16:51 that will just tell me request timed out or something 12:17:11 it won't tell me at which layer the network fails 12:17:23 ? wyontp 12:17:35 write your own network troubleshooting program. 12:17:36 i'm getting very pissed 12:17:46 brb 12:17:46 --- quit: gTs2 () 12:18:02 --- quit: gilbertbsd ("Client Exiting") 12:23:53 --- mode: I440r set -o I440r 12:23:59 stupid chanserv :P 12:24:35 ;) 12:24:59 This sucks... they said the computer would arrive in November 12:25:11 * Robert is saying this the 18th of DECEMBER. 12:25:22 Still haven't heard of it. 12:37:14 --- join: gTs2 (gTs2@212.205.215.138) joined #forth 12:42:06 --- quit: gTs2 (Client Quit) 12:42:33 --- quit: proteusguy ("Client Exiting") 12:46:48 I really don't understand what the point is of Linux using ELF executables when the linker sticks 0s in the executable for non-initialized data segments... 12:48:20 * tathi grumbles about ld being bloody stupid 12:48:29 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-QuebecCity-ppp81159.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 12:51:00 whats wrong with the 0's ? 12:51:17 erm just use bss 12:51:22 instead 12:51:46 thats not present in the file itself till you execute it :) 12:52:09 I want like a bss segment that gets loaded in memory _between_ two data segments 12:52:41 and ld insists on aligning the two data segments in the executable the way they will be when loaded into memory 12:52:59 so there's all this blank space 12:53:20 It's not a big deal... 12:53:55 --- join: gTs2 (gTs2@212.205.215.138) joined #forth 12:54:22 I'm just annoyed that I have to copy things around in memory myself rather than being able to get the program loader to do it for me. 12:58:14 it seems that the only thing the program loader does is load the binary into memory at the appropriate location, and give you the appropriate access to any blank space beyond that which you wanted 12:58:35 so I wish they wouldn't have used something as complex as an ELF 12:58:45 just let me write binary image files and load them at a fixed address 12:58:55 that's basically all it's capable of doing anyway... 13:00:13 *** end of whining: you can now return to your regularly scheduled idling *** :) 13:00:20 i'm sure they had a reason to make it as it is 13:15:02 --- quit: gTs2 () 13:44:42 --- nick: PhoodPhrenzy -> Speuler 13:46:44 Speuler: man, do you know how to eat ;) 13:46:55 * Speuler burps forcefully 13:49:04 tathi: there's a tool to replace sequences of zeroes against unitialized sections 13:49:14 forget its name 13:49:17 forgot 13:50:22 "perforate" 14:00:36 hmm, interesting 14:02:46 for further saving, there's upx which compresses executable, and sticks the uncompression code on those. 14:03:29 for huge executables (emacs and the like), the saving is considerable (leaves about 30% of the original size) 14:08:31 Hmm. 14:08:33 --- join: gTs2 (gTs2@195.167.121.148) joined #forth 14:08:52 I'm wondering, how does ColorForth store words? I saw they're hashed in some way. 14:09:08 For easy lookup at compile-time. 14:10:11 I think it sounds like a good idea - but I don't have a clue about how it's done in detail. 14:12:10 high 4-5 (?) bits are the color 14:12:33 low 28 are the first 4-7 chars of the name, huffman encoded 14:13:11 colorforth.com/parsed.html 14:13:13 and chars.html 14:14:09 Thanks. 14:14:20 hrm, maybe I have that backwards 14:14:31 but that's the basic idea 14:16:22 :) 14:21:05 --- quit: Herkamire ("leaving") 14:22:02 --- quit: tathi (""me too :)"") 14:31:33 why use huffman endoding on the name field ? 14:32:10 To fit more? :P 14:35:18 to randomize, for better hashing ? 14:35:31 just for the heck of it? 14:35:33 hey I440r 14:35:38 how's it going man 14:35:49 i hope ididn't scare you away with that stravinsky stuff ;) 14:41:54 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc1-login42.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 14:50:39 tcn! 14:50:43 --- join: tathi (~josh@ip68-9-68-215.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 14:50:52 hey mark, what's up? 14:51:02 not much, still no job 14:51:10 :( 14:51:21 you ever done any CNC related work? 14:51:39 no but ive worked on milling machines before, we have a smithy here now :) 14:51:45 its been years since i did anything 14:51:51 im kinda interested in learning it tho 14:52:04 i want to build a model jet aircraft :) 14:52:08 a WORKING one :) 14:52:24 heh.. we made a jet engine part last month :) 14:52:44 i want to make my engine based on a tesla turbine 14:52:49 intake funnel for a fancy R/C boat :) 14:53:17 psst 14:53:22 :) 14:54:07 you know what a tesla turbine is tcn ? 14:54:11 nope 14:54:22 its basically a very very clever pump 14:54:26 tesla turbine? 14:54:47 immagine a tube with disks in it on a hollow axle 14:54:48 a very early jet engine, right? 14:55:05 the tube has a slit in it and you attach a small motor to the axle 14:55:33 as the disks rotate the slit in the tube puls air in towards their center (the axle) 14:55:48 the axle has holes in it and the air being pumped bets shot out the end of the axle 14:55:57 nicola tesla invented it 14:56:10 its like 98% effucuent or something :) 14:56:42 where's the fuel come in? 14:56:58 Hi tcn. 14:57:02 themotor 14:57:07 well. you have a small mootor turning the axle turning the disks 14:57:15 u need juice 4 the motor 14:57:25 howdy robert 14:57:32 i recon you could squirt gas in at the air intake and ignight it at the exhause and have a jet engine with 89% efficiency 14:57:39 or something like that 14:57:45 ibanez guy is ignoring me ;( 14:57:59 im not, i saw you psst but i didnt know it was for mehheh 14:58:17 i greeted you earlier too 14:58:26 oh heh i was reading a book :) 14:58:39 i never saw your greet - sorry! 14:58:51 * gTs2 pouts 14:58:56 heh 14:58:58 eep 14:59:13 the problem is for a jet engine you realy need to build up high pressures 14:59:25 so what would you use this turbine for.. run a small generator? 14:59:33 im not sure if you can do that with a tesla turbine, might need some real turbines in there too 14:59:41 it was originally used as a water pump 14:59:54 you need to rotate the disks somehow with a small motor 15:00:19 but you can move huge ammounts of water (or air) with a very small motor 15:00:29 you don't need high pressures, per se...just high gas velocities 15:00:37 (which are caused by great pressures, true) 15:00:39 gts2 right 15:00:45 heh 15:01:15 turbines are cool 15:01:17 and loud 15:01:19 have the tesla turbine pump huge ammounts of air through a SMALL openging where you mix the fuel and burn it 15:01:26 but that's redundant :) 15:01:28 I wonder how big/fast a jet engine has to be before it needs axial-growth blades 15:02:07 any uesful jet engine needs them 15:02:16 that is 15:02:17 no idea, but im posative you could build a VERY SMALL tesla turbine jet engine for a model aircraft 15:02:24 any jet engine with power output that can be used needs them 15:02:41 yeah, that kind of "jet" engine can be very small 15:03:15 : robert sleep robert ; 15:03:18 well I guess tiny turbine blades would be a lot easier to make as a single crystal 15:03:33 gts2 i dont think so, if you can have a SMALL engine that can move huge ammounts of air through a small apature your going to get high enough pressures to move a medium sized model aircraft :) 15:03:55 then you got all that control shit to worry about too. i want to mess with gyros to for navagation 15:04:15 but will the thrust of said air be enough to move a ~5Kg mass? 15:04:22 heh.. like that IT scooter 15:04:50 tgs2 why 5kg. build teh model aircraft from aluminum 15:04:50 (i study physics) 15:04:55 5kg? that's a damn big model aircraft... 15:04:59 even teh tesla turbine itself could be light weight 15:05:18 only the combustion chamber needs to be stronger 15:05:25 more able to withstand the heat etc 15:05:36 --- quit: Speuler ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.2.1") 15:05:43 and you can control the air flow throu the jet by closing off its intakes some 15:05:53 I think even a piston engine will outperform a tesla turbine, in a plane 15:06:14 i recon a turbine with 8 or 9 disks 4 or 5 inches in diameter 15:06:16 maybe... 15:06:20 in a tube thats maybe a foot long 15:06:28 or less 15:06:37 4 of 5 disks could fit in a few inches 15:06:54 --- join: Speuler (~l@mnch-d9ba49af.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 15:07:12 but if you had a tesla turbine the entier length of the aircraft (leaving room for some microcontroller and a very small gyro :)) 15:07:56 can measure angles, measure air speed and thus determin position 15:08:23 the wings can be the fuel tanks just like on the real thing 15:08:26 if the whole plane is spinning how are you gonna turn it? 15:08:36 no. the plane doesnt spin 15:08:49 * gTs2 shoots the plane 15:08:50 but the turbine does and it's practically the whole plane 15:08:50 it does now!! 15:08:51 the fueslage is filled with disks 15:09:04 and has a slit at the top for an air intake 15:09:08 heh.. use 2 contrarotating turbines 15:09:38 as teh disks turn they pull the air in and push it out the rear of the aircraft 15:09:43 where the combustion chamber is 15:09:59 or you could have all the flight control shit in the fuselage and a smaller turbine on each wing :) 15:10:35 but theres no way i could build this, ive not got the expreience to do it 15:10:38 nor the materials 15:10:47 but i got the lathe mill drill :) 15:10:53 heh.. i wanna build a Sterling engine 15:11:10 bye for now 15:11:11 --- quit: gTs2 () 15:11:18 i was thinking of making this model aircraft with navagational shit in it 15:11:24 --- join: gTs2 (gTs2@patr530-b020.otenet.gr) joined #forth 15:11:40 so it could fly somewhere, use a digital camera to film its flight and bring it back :) 15:11:44 a spy plane heheh 15:11:56 yeah, you could sell it to the army :) 15:12:05 oooh make it a fighter and have robot wars in the sky!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 15:12:18 --- quit: wossname ("back 2 teh haq") 15:12:24 put some grenades on it and drop 'em on huts in afghanistan 15:12:30 lol 15:12:31 --- part: gTs2 left #forth 15:12:38 make it real quiet :) 15:12:39 no, in iraq 15:12:45 there too :) 15:12:59 it could be real quiet, if we made it realy realy light we might even get it to fly without fuel 15:13:13 just spin the engines and push air out the back 15:13:18 silent mode :) 15:13:31 hmm.. sterling engines are supposed to be real quiet 15:14:12 it could just have a burner for the hot side, and evaporative cooling for the cold side.. 15:14:34 :) 15:14:35 and paint the wings black on top to collect solar heat :) 15:15:06 i was thinking of using solar power todrive the small electic motor that will be needed to rotate the tesla turbine 15:15:11 --- join: proteusguy (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 15:18:02 tcn google for tesla turbine, read how it works 15:18:05 and how efficient it is 15:18:29 could make a radio controlled submarine with these too!!!! 15:23:12 hmm.. i wonder if they'd work good for exhaust blowers 15:23:20 :) 15:23:25 very probably :)( 15:24:18 thats another thing i was thinking about hehe 15:24:31 that might even have some marketability :) 15:27:12