00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.12.03 00:08:56 hi ! 00:51:01 --- quit: proteusguy ("Client Exiting") 00:53:42 Hi. 00:53:46 --- nick: Robert__ -> Robert 00:54:00 hi 00:54:38 Speuler: Hey, why did you paste those ancient logs? 00:54:44 Speuler: Oh... 00:54:53 Speuler: I thought you did, sorry. 00:58:16 i just wrote util 2 prepare text 4r view on palm :) 00:58:59 Nice... 00:59:23 About the Forth OS, I haven't started yet, I'll first figure out what to write in assembly and what to write in Forth... 00:59:33 :) 00:59:43 Of course, also what I want 00:59:59 i format text so it fills screen w/ minimal gaps 01:00:46 --- join: proteusguy (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 01:01:03 wanna l00k what we discuss in #demoscene ? 01:01:22 Nah, it's OK ;) 01:01:24 Hi proteusguy 01:01:42 Hey - you guys are up late... 01:02:42 Yes, 10:05 ;) 01:02:48 That's...late. 01:03:09 10am I presume? 01:03:39 Yes. 01:03:43 * Robert is at school. 01:03:50 am/pm sux, use 24 h :( 01:03:54 Hrm... should return to the class soon. 01:04:01 Serg_Penguin: Exactly. 01:04:23 Well 4am here so I need to goto sleep. You all enjoy... 01:04:31 once i lated by 12 hrs cause of this 01:04:33 Bye. 01:04:42 Serg_Penguin: :DDD 01:05:05 was told to come at 8:00, came at 20 ( 8 pm ) 01:05:06 --- nick: Klaw` -> Klaw 01:12:35 --- quit: Serg_Penguin ("BYE, work...") 01:16:08 --- join: cyberlok (~peters@ip68-0-170-145.tc.ph.cox.net) joined #forth 03:09:46 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 04:12:58 --- quit: onetom (forward.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:12:59 --- quit: ChanServ (forward.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:12:59 --- quit: cyberlok (forward.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:12:59 --- quit: TreyB (forward.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:12:59 --- quit: skylan (forward.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:12:59 --- quit: XeF4 (forward.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:12:59 --- quit: o- (forward.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:12:59 --- quit: OrngeTide (forward.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:12:59 --- quit: Robert (forward.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:12:59 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (forward.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:12:59 --- quit: fridge (forward.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:12:59 --- quit: proteusguy (forward.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:12:59 --- quit: Speuler (forward.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:12:59 --- quit: Klaw (forward.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:12:59 --- quit: Fractal (forward.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:12:59 --- quit: ian (forward.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:13:35 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 04:13:35 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 04:13:35 --- join: cyberlok (~peters@ip68-0-170-145.tc.ph.cox.net) joined #forth 04:13:35 --- join: proteusguy (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 04:13:35 --- join: Klaw (chuck@ip68-4-243-214.oc.oc.cox.net) joined #forth 04:13:35 --- join: Speuler (~l@mnch-d9ba43d6.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 04:13:35 --- join: Robert (~Robert@robost86.tsps1.freenet6.net) joined #forth 04:13:35 --- join: onetom (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 04:13:35 --- join: TreyB (~trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 04:13:35 --- join: skylan (sjh@Sprint221.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 04:13:35 --- join: ian (ian@inpuj.net) joined #forth 04:13:35 --- join: fridge (meldrum@zipperii.zip.com.au) joined #forth 04:13:35 --- join: Fractal (tytptc@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth 04:13:35 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 04:13:35 --- join: o- (~o@nzym.fi) joined #forth 04:13:35 --- join: OrngeTide (orange@65.19.141.250) joined #forth 04:13:35 --- mode: forward.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 04:20:50 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 04:31:17 robert here ? 06:14:12 --- quit: onetom (forward.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 06:15:13 --- join: onetom (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 06:27:52 Yes. 06:27:59 * Robert returns from school. 06:42:23 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 06:42:33 hi 06:46:44 Robert: correction 06:47:04 Robert: i didn't day i ever had a Jupiter Ace 06:47:22 say 06:47:36 that's because i never had one 06:47:56 must have understood that incorrectly 06:55:36 Okay, sorry... I thought you did. 06:55:47 I'll inform MooKeen ;) 06:55:50 Hi Serg_Penguin, 06:56:08 hi 06:56:14 will run home soon 06:56:24 to test some fractals and demo stuff 06:58:05 -> Robert, what free server will u advice to put my proggies ? 06:58:15 chat.ru mega suxx as u seen 06:59:17 Hmm.. 06:59:34 Don't know, I usually have it on my own one. 07:00:08 --- join: tathi (~josh@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 07:00:32 Hi tathi. 07:12:19 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 07:24:09 hey Robert 07:29:30 --- quit: tathi (""bah, things are too busy to chat today..."") 07:29:31 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:29:39 --- join: proteusguy (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 07:58:06 --- join: I440r (~I440r@sdn-ap-010tnnashP0011.dialsprint.net) joined #forth 07:58:06 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 07:58:31 --- mode: I440r set -o I440r 08:13:55 ok, now wheres mrreach! 08:13:58 dangit! 08:14:12 --- join: lament (~lament@h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net) joined #forth 08:24:41 --- quit: lament ("mental mantle") 08:33:21 --- quit: I440r ("brb") 08:34:06 --- join: I440r (~I440r@sdn-ap-010tnnashP0011.dialsprint.net) joined #forth 08:34:37 --- quit: I440r (Client Quit) 08:34:50 --- join: I440r (~I440r@sdn-ap-010tnnashP0011.dialsprint.net) joined #forth 08:35:07 fucking stupid MIRC wont do what i want 08:35:09 grrr 08:42:25 mIRC? 08:42:28 why do you use that crap 08:42:30 xircon.com 08:43:06 lol 08:43:12 xircon is crap 08:43:18 only one worht using is xchat 08:43:23 but im in windows rite now 08:44:53 uhm 08:44:58 silly I440r 08:45:05 xchat and mirc suck :) 08:46:09 :) 08:46:55 im working on xircon2 now 08:47:19 every platform native... 08:47:27 you coded xircon ? 08:47:32 oopts 08:47:32 heh 08:47:37 in forth ??? :) 08:49:17 Hi there. 08:49:27 hi 08:49:27 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 08:49:38 heh this channel is growing :) 08:49:50 going to be bigger than #debian soon :) 08:50:54 Yes..er..soon 08:51:32 Without me and the bots, there's 15 people in here... quite good anyway. 08:52:33 :) 08:52:43 you ARE a bot :P 08:59:49 hehe 09:00:01 i didnt code xircon no 09:00:19 my friend is coding xircon2 engine im working on a impl for curses 09:15:47 what's xircon? 09:16:52 aawin32 irc 09:17:20 ok 09:20:24 whats an impl ? 09:23:02 implementation 09:23:03 implementation 09:24:58 oh 09:25:06 so your recoding curses ? 09:33:48 no, im writing a UI for curses 09:33:54 or, wanting to anyway 09:34:11 aha 09:35:09 hehe 09:44:22 does (can) curses keep track of what was on the screen and only send the parts of the screen that have changed? 09:49:36 Herkamire: yes, I'd imagine so 10:03:33 it double buffers the data in the display, it has to 10:03:57 also, i think it only updates the changes anyway 10:09:03 I really should use curses 10:12:02 no 10:12:11 curses sucks 10:12:12 :) 10:15:27 I'm trying to write a C program for the unix terminal that will run on anything 10:16:01 I will either use ansii escape sequences, or use curses 10:16:15 right now I'm using escape sequences 10:19:02 Herkamire I am doing the same 10:19:06 I want this to run on windows 10:21:38 does windoze handle the ansi escape sequences? 10:23:12 (I'm just using the one for setting colors and the one for moving (esc[y,xH and esc[3f;4bm I believe) 10:26:52 dude I have no idea. 10:26:53 at all. 10:52:40 --- quit: I440r () 10:57:54 yay! I found my bug 10:58:42 I thought I was erasing the charachters in my buffer, or not printing them. turns out I set the forground and background color to black :) 10:59:20 hehe 11:04:18 seems my memory failed me. I thought 0 meant default, not black :) 11:33:30 --- join: lament (~lament@h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net) joined #forth 11:40:01 is lament thin by another name? 11:40:51 --- quit: cyberlok (Remote closed the connection) 11:42:12 thin? 11:42:45 I guess not. 11:43:48 lament: someone else on shawcable, but I just remembered he is from Calgary 11:48:23 someone who changes his nick on us ocationally :) 11:55:44 Herk: hey, have you ever booted a Powrer Mac without a battery? 11:56:56 * XeF4 still troubleshooting the same machine 11:56:56 with a dead one 11:57:25 what model? did it ever stop generating video sync pulses after a reboot? 11:57:34 no 11:57:53 I had a 7200 with a dead battery 11:58:20 weird. because I have the same symptoms as I hear for 6100s with a dead battery, but I have an 8600 11:58:28 it forgets the time, and I think what drive to boot off of 11:58:46 this remembers the time and in fact I cannot zap the PRAM 11:59:05 you can't? 11:59:24 dosn't it loose the pram if you take the battery out for a few minutes? 12:00:10 I start holding apple-command-p-r after hitting the power-on, but before the grey screen. It chimes once at my set volume, and repeatedly at the default volume until I release the keys 12:00:16 this I am told is correct 12:00:28 but the date and time and all settings are still unchanged 12:00:56 it will, but I don't know what state the pram is in after I just leave the battery out for a few min 12:01:23 it will come up with some defaults 12:01:36 which? 12:01:56 I don't know. 12:02:03 do you have standard hardware? 12:02:07 ah right, after leaving the battery out 12:02:09 are you afraid it won't boot after? 12:02:23 no, I've already done it. 12:02:34 except for a MAXPowr accelerator, yes. 12:02:53 do you get a video signal ever? 12:03:03 googling for information about these cards finds mostly raves about how wonderfully reliable and compatable they are and very little useful information. 12:03:17 only after a cold boot 12:03:25 I see 12:03:34 rebooting always kills the video signal 12:04:07 and sometimes cold booting the machine is not successful, but after 1-2 power cycles the machine starts generating a video signal again 12:04:42 8600/250 btw 12:05:07 motherboard is (c) 1997, so I assume it's a Kansas board, but it doesn't say anywhere 12:05:14 have you searched the apple docs for long? 12:05:21 yes 12:05:33 they have great docs, but they are damn hard to find 12:06:32 does the OS boot up without video? 12:06:46 sometimes yes and sometimes no 12:06:57 from a cold boot that starts without video, yes 12:07:23 from a ctrl-apple-power reboot, usually, but never when I reboot with special->reboot 12:08:06 actually Ylläpito->Käynnistä uudestaan, I assume that's special->reboot in English 12:09:12 maybe it's special->crash ;) 12:10:22 no it isn't 12:11:37 does special->shutdown work? (I mean can you boot after that fine) 12:11:42 yeah 12:11:59 but if I wait more than a few seconds to boot after that I sometimes have to power cycle a few times 12:12:06 which seems like a capacitor charging problem to me, but.. 12:12:23 did you check for a firmware upgrade? 12:12:25 but when I opened the machien I couldn't find any electrolytic capacitors on the board 12:12:31 machine, even 12:12:46 I did not 12:13:08 rebooting brings you back to OF, so it could be a problem with your OF 12:13:28 hmmm, actually, I'm not sure you have Open Firmware 12:16:10 hm? 12:16:19 is there a Powermac without Open Firmware? 12:16:47 My Mac IIsi worked fine with a dead battery... 12:17:02 Still does, I'm sure. 12:17:03 totally different architecture 12:17:29 Yeah, the early power macs didn't use Open Firmware. 12:17:34 XeF4: the older macs don't have Open Firmware 12:17:42 this is a PCI mac 12:18:05 Might have it. Check www.lowendmac.com 12:18:05 with 3897 datestamps on a few of the chips 12:18:22 Lists the full specs for almost all oldish macs. 12:18:23 I have checked earlier and it has it 12:20:57 I must say I'm dissapointed in Apple: releasing an almost completely proprietary unix OS. 12:21:30 the specs on this page don't match the reality of my machine (frankenstein experiments with the previous owner perhaps?) 12:21:40 isn't only the window system proprietary? 12:21:41 s/with/by/ 12:21:43 Makes sense. 12:21:59 lament : No, pretty much only the kernel is free. 12:22:34 All configuration utilites, all non-GPLed commandline utils, all drivers, etc. 12:22:36 Herk: what I have not been able to find is where the gestalt id is stored in the machine 12:22:59 XeF4 : Boot a linux kernel: It'll tell you in the dmesg. 12:23:14 (It does on 68k macs anyways. 12:23:15 ) 12:23:31 Fractal: learn to read 12:23:59 XeF4 : Learn to ask your questions properly. 12:24:33 Fractal: I asked my question properly, the answer is a location 12:25:08 Presumably to read from the location. Gotta be more specific, friend. 12:25:09 XeF4: I don't know anything about gestalt, except a vague concept of what it does 12:26:14 XeF4: what OS version? 12:26:33 Herk: 9.1 Finnish. 12:27:28 Fractal: I can read the gestalt id actually 12:28:03 Oh. Good, I guess. 12:28:06 Fractal: you make unwarranted assumptions 12:28:38 XeF4 : You make ambiguous questions. 12:29:15 XeF4: hmmm. it looks like when you install OS9 it should tell you if you need a firmware upgrade. 12:29:47 Herk: it is almost certainly not an OS issue 12:30:06 since the Mac is supposed to give the grey screen before it even looks at disc contents 12:30:30 and if I ctrl-alt-power or apple-cmd-p-r before the os loads, I still lose the video signal 12:32:12 Fractal: yeah, it was ambiguous between whether I meant a physical or logical location 12:33:12 XeF4 : The gestalt ID is stored inside your mac. Duh. 12:33:14 Heh. 12:33:30 Fractal: go to thin 12:33:34 Fractal: go to thin's house and leave us alone 12:33:47 Who the hell is thin? 12:34:31 futhin/thin/bugslayer/what was his other name.. 12:35:08 Oh. So what's your deranged, confused point this time? 12:36:25 I see. Good one. 12:37:11 Fractal: my point is that there should be a safe people who rave in this channel without even caring for any understanding of that about which they rave 12:38:55 Hm... Look who's talking... Your sentence didn't even make sense. 12:39:10 I assume you mean a safe *place* people can go? 12:39:18 Or a safe to lock those people in? 12:39:38 Fractal: safe place, *nod*, ssh lag and 1 too many ctrl-Ws 12:41:56 You know, that's my main problem with #forth. People are so quick to judge (and seemingly lack basic communications skills) that it's almost impossible to carry on an intelligent conversation. 12:43:07 that's my main problem with #forth as well, but add to that that the people talking and the people writing forth are seldom the same people 12:43:29 Yes, I agree. 12:44:16 I never had a problem 12:44:30 I am indulging in some offtopic talk in here because I really need to get this Mac working and there are PPC Mac people in here 12:44:45 you do not seem to be one of them or if you are, you seem to lack basic communicatoin skills, so TURPA KIINNI SAATANA 12:45:03 Though its worse in other channels. If you mention forth, some self-considered-expert will tell you his opinions on why forth is horrible. 12:45:26 Um... 12:45:57 And it usually turns out he read a slashdot thread about forth or something. 12:46:05 XeF4: it could be an incompatibility between the os and the firmware. the os could be writing something to the pram that the firmware does not understand/interpret properly. 12:47:14 when people say that forth sucks, I like to ask what they were trying to do with it :) 12:47:15 Herk: even to the point that I cannot flash the pram by the usual means? Worth a try I guess. 12:47:34 er 12:47:38 s/flash/zap/ 12:47:44 os9 needs a firmware upgrade on some of the older machines 12:48:24 do you have an older os version you could try? (like 8.5) 12:48:33 I do not 12:48:46 in fact, I do not have the OS9 originals either 12:49:50 and I am afraid to flash a new firmware update right now because something (accelerator card?) is either reporting the wrong gestalt id or I have the wrong board in the case 12:50:16 and if the accelerator is misreporting the gestalt id, I wonder if the update software might obligingly flash the wrong firmware version in 12:50:44 do you have OF? 12:50:46 --- join: I440r (~I440r@sdn-ap-010tnnashP0011.dialsprint.net) joined #forth 12:50:57 I have. 12:52:33 aaaha! the clock settings are not changed on a pram zap anymore 12:52:54 what is the key combination to get an openfirmware prompt? 12:54:48 * XeF4 just noticed that the Apple search engine works better with complete sentences 13:04:42 --- part: Klaw left #forth 13:11:06 --- join: Klaw (chuck@ip68-4-243-214.oc.oc.cox.net) joined #forth 13:11:29 --- join: tathi (~josh@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 13:11:37 Hi there 13:11:46 hey hey 13:11:57 how's things? 13:12:58 Quite fine... bedtime in not too many hours. 13:13:04 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-QuebecCity-ppp82330.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 13:17:02 XeF4: apple-option-o-f 13:36:31 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:39:08 apple-option-o-f ->no video signal 13:40:47 do you have an apple monitor on there? 13:41:02 cheap performa monitor, but yes 13:41:42 same issues with the Macintosh Color Display, btw 13:42:08 just that the Macintosh Color Display is quite nice and quite heavy so I didn't want to carry it here 13:45:39 --- join: skylan (sjh@Sprint238.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 13:46:15 both do the default 640x480@67Hz without problems 13:48:12 well my only guess (besides it being physically broken) is that you need a firmware upgrade. 13:52:59 --- join: gilbertbsd (~gilbertbs@67.97.122.120) joined #forth 13:53:15 hallo. 13:57:58 gilbertbsd : Latest frugal will work on SunOS/SPARC 13:58:58 At least it does on a SunOS 5.8 SPARC. 13:59:53 url per favore? 14:00:05 par favore 14:00:25 Pour favour. 14:00:29 www.hcsw.org/frugal/ 14:00:38 that looks frenchy. 14:01:46 Oui, c'est la methode vrai, je pense. 14:02:29 So, uncomment the SunOS line in the Makefil 14:02:31 Makefile 14:02:33 tous vraiment pensez :D 14:02:44 D'accord. :) 14:03:08 wow you went through not one but two realeses recently? 14:03:11 Ou est vous? 14:03:42 Je pensez pas. 14:03:43 Yes, I fixed a MacOS X compile problem, and a few other things. Check docs/CHANGES 14:04:16 Er. Where are you from? 14:04:32 guess. 14:04:35 I am in Miami atm. 14:04:51 Oh, cool. 14:05:11 BC, Canada. 14:05:33 I see. Said the blind man. 14:05:45 my boss says that 14:06:07 Sounds cool. Wish I knew what it meant. 14:06:11 yes 14:06:16 same here 14:06:19 Heh. 14:06:27 I learnt it from my former boss. 14:06:30 qu'est qu'un pensez. je ne comprends pas de tout 14:06:32 its just a pun. 14:06:48 it must be something they have to learn in boss school 14:06:56 hahahaa. 14:07:04 haha 14:07:26 Heh. Bossing 101. 14:07:36 gilbertbsd : So does it compile? 14:07:40 And run? 14:07:53 I am working on it. 14:07:56 Cool. 14:07:58 Vnc is a tad slow :D 14:08:21 VNC? Why don't you SSH in? 14:08:27 Or telnet 14:08:28 ? 14:08:32 he needs widgets 14:08:40 =) 14:08:45 I used the netscape browser. 14:08:46 Heh. Well who doesn't? 14:09:03 gilbertbsd : Oh, I see. You coulda used lynx... 14:09:21 yes but the text looks funny and it overlaps very badly. 14:09:31 Oh yeah? Odd... 14:09:39 font settings are shot. 14:09:54 gilbertbsd : Hey, is this SunOS box patched properly? 14:10:15 Because there's a really sad vulnerability in login/telnetd 14:10:19 I dunno. its a university box. 14:10:33 So probably not. :) 14:10:49 Mind giving me the IP? 14:11:12 hehe 14:11:29 Because there's a really sad vulnerability in login/telnetd 14:11:38 sure I do MIND! 14:11:40 Hehe.. my bosses ont let me run SSH 14:11:41 Heh. 14:11:45 They use rsh 14:12:01 but I stopped trying to convince them 14:12:08 now I just spy on them :) 14:12:16 hahaahaha. 14:12:19 well it works. 14:12:23 Frugal is frugging. 14:12:33 no - using login/telnet at all is silly :) 14:12:41 see see 14:12:44 he's right 14:12:45 UNSEEABLE 14:12:46 ok 14:12:51 yah but if I get in your network, you're fucked 14:13:10 or slightly more fucked than you would be 14:13:13 so what would you like to use instead? 14:13:13 ssh 14:13:31 since it's not plaintext passwording everywhere :) 14:13:35 Fractal you could find the IP address from your syslogs couldn't you? 14:14:01 --- quit: tathi ("Lost terminal") 14:14:03 gilbertbsd : Me? 14:14:08 yes you. 14:14:33 gilbertbsd : Frugal doesn't let you see words with embedded character strings. This ought to be fixed soon. 14:14:44 gilbertbsd : How would I? Are you IRCing from the sun box? 14:15:03 nope. I visited your website through the vnc session. 14:15:43 * gilbertbsd throws a blanket over the vnc session. 14:15:45 Heh. Oh. 14:16:02 Whatever, I don't really need it. 14:16:13 ah good. so I don't get booted :D 14:16:25 now are you planning on a frugal asm source releaseE? 14:16:48 ASM source release? 14:16:55 What? 14:17:05 The core is written in ANSI C. 14:17:10 yeah that C thing is a bit prohibitive for non C readers :D 14:17:59 Well why don't you just disassemble the binary then? 14:18:19 14:18:23 Thats an idea! 14:19:14 --- quit: Herkamire ("volleyball time") 14:19:44 Honestly, I have a hard time believing that reading uncommented ASM is better than C code... 14:20:08 Also, C is a relatively simple language. 14:20:10 its a habit I am picking up. 14:20:16 Relatively simple. 14:20:45 Yes, in fact it is quite crippled. 14:20:52 Is it? how so? 14:21:34 Well, many, many things that could be handled by the C compiler are simply expected to be handled by the programmer. 14:22:01 so why not just use a language that expects a great deal from the programmer? 14:22:31 Well, so the programmer can concentrate on other things. 14:22:35 like what? 14:22:42 like writing programs 14:22:48 Like the actual problem the program is trying to solve... 14:22:58 do you guys know Parkinson's law? 14:23:17 work expands to fill the time alloted to it? 14:23:24 programmers ARE people! 14:23:42 don't give them extra time!! Give them forth if they want it done fast! 14:23:55 gilbertbsd : Yes, but work won't shrink to fill the time alloted. 14:23:58 * lament cringes 14:24:06 Yes it does. 14:24:19 the constraint (being time) forces certain choices. 14:25:02 like using a higher-level language 14:25:07 OK, so your argument is that we should use a lower level language and settle for inferior results? 14:25:26 Inferior results? do not blame the results on the tool. 14:25:35 Blame it on the smith. 14:26:15 gilbertbsd : OK, can I ask you why you use ASM then? Why not just key in raw machine code? After all, think parkinson's law... 14:26:37 Better yet 14:26:40 Why use a computer? 14:26:42 because machine code is highly error prone and its job can be very easily done by an asm. 14:26:49 Why indeed use a computer? 14:26:53 gilbertbsd: don't blame the tool 14:26:57 blame the smith 14:27:03 machine code is not error-prone 14:27:04 gilbertbsd : That argument scales even higher though. 14:27:13 why build a better mouse trap when there is no capacity for handling the increase in mice? 14:27:26 ASM is highly error prone and its job can be very easily done by fortran. 14:27:54 look I got a cell phone recently, and I have had so many stupid disconnections because Sprint's computer somewhere misbehaved. 14:28:14 I bet the disconnection application was programmed in some high level language but what good did it do? 14:28:45 I bet the programmers got to focus on the 'problem at hand' and yet its failed 4 times since the 18th. 14:28:47 Well that's largely conjecture, but we'll assume that it was the computer, and that their computers were programmed in a high level language. 14:28:59 indeed they told me it was the computer. 14:29:39 Still, that's what philosophers call a "logical fallacy". 14:29:46 only philosophers/ 14:29:55 tell me where you see a fallacy. 14:30:21 Assuming it *was* programmed in an HLL, how do you know that, say, had it been programmed in ASM that it might not have failed 10 times more? 14:31:02 how do you know that it might not have failed at all? 14:31:18 Exactly my point. Pure, unadultered conjecture. 14:31:35 And you're not even sure if it *was* programmed in an HLL. 14:31:40 All I am saying is that the language does not really protect us from the errors. 14:32:16 the HLL reduces the chances of careless mistakes and thats really it. 14:32:54