00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.12.02
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06:22:08 <Serg_Penguin> hi onetom
06:22:44 <Serg_Penguin> -> onetom was it u explaining me what the damn thing a! is ?
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06:39:00 <Serg_Penguin> hi, is one alive ?
06:39:15 <Serg_Penguin> all freenode seem s2 be asleep :)
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07:10:40 <ASau> Good evening!
07:16:14 <Robert> Hi ASau :)
07:16:43 <ASau> Any news, Robert?
07:18:32 <Robert> Yes. Serg_Penguin has rejoined 562 times. That's about it :)
07:18:43 <ASau> :)))))))))
07:20:29 <ASau> And I've closed hiking season (this year's).
07:22:00 <ASau> Now I am almost 3rd class sportsmen. :)
07:23:00 <ASau> 4 levels to grow in a master. :)))
07:23:06 <Robert> Hehe.
07:23:11 <Robert> I'm not a sportsman at all.
07:23:30 <ASau> Now I am. :)
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08:50:26 <ian> what is a sportsman
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09:05:54 <I440r> afk...
09:06:50 <Robert> Hey.
09:06:52 <Robert> Heh.
09:06:52 <Robert> Bye.
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09:42:07 <Speuler> I440r: hi dood
09:42:20 <Speuler> I440r: managed to get #4 done ?
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10:26:51 <gilbertbsd> hullo
10:26:57 <ASau> Good evening!
10:27:27 <gilbertbsd> good afternoon.
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11:08:12 <Speuler> hi
11:08:17 <Speuler> oh
11:08:21 <Speuler> gone already
11:08:54 <Robert> Hello.
11:09:48 <Speuler> be greeted
11:14:01 * Robert is greeted.
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13:01:59 <Robert> Hi Herkamire!
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13:03:51 <Robert> Hi proteusguy.
13:04:07 <proteusguy> Hey Robert.
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13:36:17 <Herkamire> hey Robert :)
13:36:52 <Robert> Very active channel..
13:36:55 <ian> ;)
13:37:03 <Robert> Hi to you too, ian 
13:37:41 <Herkamire> heh :)
13:38:30 <Herkamire> I might be more active if I was actually programming in forth more :)
13:38:41 <Herkamire> I couldn't get ppforth to work on my Visor this weekend though
13:39:11 <Robert> I don't code too much either...
13:39:32 * Robert has however discovered the usefulness of tail recursion.
13:40:22 <Herkamire> yay :)
13:40:31 <Herkamire> I've been programming, but mostly in C
13:40:53 <Herkamire> I'll probably have a decent text based jabber client in a month or two
13:41:30 <Robert> Jabber?
13:51:09 <Herkamire> yes jabber :)
13:51:16 <Robert> And that is..?
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13:52:45 <Herkamire> http://www.jabber.org/about/overview.htm
13:52:52 <Herkamire> an IM protocol
13:53:26 <Robert> Oh.
13:53:45 <Herkamire> open, extensible (with xml), decentralized, and secure
13:54:00 <Herkamire> (encryption optional)
13:54:10 <Robert> Sounds nice.
13:54:12 <Herkamire> and they've made it really easy to make a client
13:54:41 <Herkamire> the server will translate jabber protocol to other protocals and act as a bridge to msn, yahoo etc
13:55:00 <Herkamire> AOL is being an ass about it though, so you often can't bridge to AIM and ICQ
13:56:18 <Herkamire> I think the world needs an open, extensible, decentrallized IM system
13:58:22 <Herkamire> in writing my client I'm currently mucking around with screen buffering. I've managed to really get things fouled up.
13:58:55 <wossname> everything needs to be decentralized.
13:59:12 <Robert> Yes, property is theft!
13:59:34 <wossname> er... well, theft means property!@$ create some wealth by stealing an mp3
14:02:12 <proteusguy> !property is theft
14:03:26 <wossname> ooh, nice file server trigger
14:10:12 <I440r> serverless IM :)
14:10:46 <I440r> doesnt aol own both icq AND aim ?
14:10:55 <Robert> I wasn't quite serious, anti-anarchists :)
14:11:19 <I440r> neway bbl
14:11:20 <I440r> working
14:11:57 <Robert> Bye
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14:42:16 <Herkamire> I440r: jabber isn't serverless. it's just that anybody can run a server
14:42:29 <Herkamire> I440r: yes, aol does own ICQ and AIM
14:45:55 <Herkamire> "talk" is serverles IM :)
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14:54:48 <Speuler> talk requires talk daemon, that's the server
14:56:23 <wossname> Speuler lives?
14:56:28 <wossname> hello :)
14:57:44 <Herkamire> Speuler: obviously you have to be listening on a socket. it could be considered the client though
14:58:18 <Herkamire> meaning, talk is peer to peer
15:02:47 <fridge> talk will never be accepted until there is a client that does emoticon substitution with pretty graphics
15:07:59 <Speuler> yep
15:08:38 <Speuler> Herkamire: talk is split into a server and a client
15:08:56 <Robert> Weltrusten :) Going to bed now, see you.
15:09:10 <Speuler> night the_rob
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15:16:24 <Herkamire> fridge: are you serious? I hate those things
15:16:40 <fridge> well judging by my sisters usage of IM clients
15:16:55 <fridge> it seems to be the most popular feature with the population @ large
15:17:52 <Herkamire> ^#*&@
15:19:48 <Herkamire> I like eye candy for about oh, 5 secconds usually
15:20:10 <Herkamire> I go "coool :) :) ... OK, now how do you make it go away"
15:34:45 <Herkamire> bbl
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16:57:19 <gilbertbsd> hullo
17:04:33 <Speuler> hi gil
17:07:19 <gilbertbsd> hey I never found out what you thought of rebol.
17:12:47 <Speuler> i haven't reached a conclusion or opinion yet
17:13:00 <gilbertbsd> ah okay.
17:13:07 <Speuler> i did look at the list of keywords though
17:13:34 <Speuler> doesn't look like a minimalist language
17:13:44 <gilbertbsd> :d but its got a small footprint.
17:14:04 <Speuler> yes, "as small as 300 kb" :)
17:14:29 <gilbertbsd> right! and it does a great deal in the 300kb provided.
17:14:34 <lament> rebol seems very silly
17:14:39 <gilbertbsd> it does!
17:14:41 <gilbertbsd> ?
17:14:43 <gilbertbsd> why so?
17:14:43 <lament> i mean, dollars as a datatype
17:14:56 <gilbertbsd> ya never know! its easy to work with.
17:15:04 <lament> hmm.
17:15:36 <lament> "# Rich Set of Built-in Datatypes. In addition to the datatypes found in most languages, REBOL can also express money, times, dates, words, tags, logic, lists, hashes, tuples, XY pairs, and many other datatypes."
17:15:53 <lament> I believe it's stupid, and clutters the language needlessly.
17:15:56 <gilbertbsd> smalltalk does the same thing and few people complain.
17:16:04 <lament> I don't know smalltalk.
17:16:10 <Speuler> i suppose one can define additional datatypes
17:16:16 <gilbertbsd> tuples are provided by our dear python as well.
17:16:18 <lament> gilbertbsd: is rebol object-oriented?
17:16:26 <gilbertbsd> Yes it is.
17:16:37 <lament> gilbertbsd: tuples are necessary. MONEY, not really
17:16:49 <lament> gilbertbsd: in the sense that everything is an object?
17:16:56 <gilbertbsd> ummm not really.
17:17:00 <lament> Aha.
17:17:09 <lament> See, and in smalltalk, everything is an object
17:17:12 <gilbertbsd> Sassenrath is not that big on OO. he says his language is functional as well.
17:17:18 <lament> And all those data types are really _classes_
17:17:33 <lament> You can subclass them, etc. They all behave in the same way
17:17:41 <lament> I don't think rebol types do that
17:17:49 <gilbertbsd> I bet they can.
17:18:12 <lament> If they could, they wouldn't be called types.
17:18:58 <gilbertbsd> :D
17:19:30 <gilbertbsd> you really should play with the language. its doing some really neat things AND it reminds me of python when the syntax is simple.
17:19:45 <lament> frankly, i don't see how rebol can be used for anything other than simple internet/business-oriented scripting
17:20:26 <gilbertbsd> you can create servers very easily with it :D
17:20:51 <lament> Where can I find a good rebol manual online?
17:21:22 <gilbertbsd> there is code here: rebolforces.com/zine
17:21:45 <gilbertbsd> http://www.rebol.com/docs.html
17:22:08 <lament> what about a manual?
17:22:19 <gilbertbsd> its all there under the docs.html
17:22:23 <gilbertbsd> re: http://www.rebol.com/docs.html
17:22:47 <lament> thanks
17:26:11 <lament> hm.
17:26:15 <lament> It is too specialized
17:26:30 <gilbertbsd> how so?
17:27:09 <lament> All the built-in stuff
17:27:29 <gilbertbsd> you don't have to use them. 
17:27:43 <gilbertbsd> but it makes the language very powerful at the same time.
17:28:04 <gilbertbsd> The gui version  (Rebol/view) lets you create gui apps in a snap.
17:28:13 <lament> let me give you my favourite quote
17:28:31 <lament> "Programming languages should be designed not by piling feature on top of feature, but by removing the weaknesses and restrictions that make additional features appear necessary."
17:28:53 <gilbertbsd> aha.
17:29:05 <gilbertbsd> thats the schemers talking.
17:29:40 <gilbertbsd> but i think Rebol provides an interesting approach to doing useful things with a PL.
17:29:42 <lament> You don't agree?
17:29:56 <gilbertbsd> I do agree completely :D. now show me a forth core :D
17:30:12 <lament> I don't see anything special about Rebol. It could just as well be a subset of Python + a network library.
17:30:25 <gilbertbsd> a core from which the Rebol features can be used in a library module.
17:30:37 <gilbertbsd> yes thats what I think too. but its sooo small!
17:32:54 <gilbertbsd> basically, I think a nice forth would be one that maintains the simplicity and consistency of scheme (or early forths) and a powerful set of libraries.
17:33:24 <gilbertbsd> given the ease with which things can be done in rebol/python etc... it really wouldn't be halfbad to have those things nicely implemented.
17:33:42 <gilbertbsd> etc being maybe commonlisp?
17:35:17 <lament> Just write a set of libraries for colorforth :)
17:35:22 <gilbertbsd> eeek!
17:35:31 <gilbertbsd> I can't do a hello world in colorForth!!!
17:35:57 * gilbertbsd is a little afraid of colorForth.
17:36:17 <fridge> don't libraries add complexity?
17:36:46 <gilbertbsd> how? C lives through libraries and its been doing just fine since AD ... etc.
17:37:15 <fridge> and it maintains simplicity?
17:37:30 <gilbertbsd> no :D
17:37:51 <gilbertbsd> a language that might be said to maintain simplicity _somewhat_ is smalltalk. 
17:37:58 <gilbertbsd> But I cannot grok smalltalk.
17:38:08 <lament> I don't understand what you mean by simplicity
17:38:18 <gilbertbsd> uncluteredness ?
17:38:39 <XeF4> uniformity?
17:38:40 <gilbertbsd> hey lament do you know of a scheme-like Forth?
17:38:44 <gilbertbsd> consistency.
17:38:45 <lament> To me, it means a small core + a good module system for hiding the complexity in libraries
17:38:49 <gilbertbsd> Python. 
17:38:54 <lament> I.e. Python :)
17:38:57 <gilbertbsd> touche.
17:39:06 <Speuler> there's lifo, which is "lisp forth"
17:39:28 <lament> hehe, nice pun
17:40:01 <gilbertbsd> is there a lifo? 
17:40:06 <Speuler> there is
17:40:13 <Speuler> author is alexander burger
17:40:33 <Speuler> is about 10 years old
17:40:41 <Speuler> (lifo, not the author)
17:41:14 <gilbertbsd> url?
17:41:20 <gilbertbsd> google is coming up with a lot of noise.
17:41:26 <Speuler> don't know
17:41:50 <Speuler> i got my copy from the author at euroforth 95
17:41:52 <gilbertbsd> is it similar to the HP48 RPL?
17:42:04 <gilbertbsd> is your copy anywhere online?
17:42:08 <Speuler> can't compare those
17:42:23 <Speuler> not right now. 
17:42:28 <gilbertbsd> RPL == reverse polish lisp. Forth inspired.
17:42:33 <gilbertbsd> will it be there anytime soon?
17:42:48 <Speuler> possibly. but google for it first
17:43:55 <gilbertbsd> lament that quote you had from scheme?
17:43:59 <gilbertbsd> I found it here :D
17:44:06 <gilbertbsd> http://www.software-lab.de/ref.html
17:44:53 <lament> gilbertbsd: interesting, i was reading that page as you said that
17:45:04 <lament> and i wasn't aware it had that quote
17:45:18 <gilbertbsd> hehe. google makes the world smaller.
17:45:24 <lament> yeah, small world :)
17:45:45 <Speuler> new version of lifo is called "tea time"
17:46:06 <gilbertbsd> Speuler du bist Deutsch?
17:46:22 <Speuler> jo
17:46:48 <lament> I ventured forth. ... love and jealousy warbled
17:46:48 <lament> with the lisp of childhood ... see you before.' When is his tea-time?' 
17:46:58 * lament sighs
17:47:39 <gilbertbsd> now it would be easy to find if I could comprehend more than 3 words in German.
17:48:30 <gilbertbsd> but what do you guys think of a rebol-ish library for a small set of forth?
17:48:33 <lament> anyway, what do you mean by a scheme-like forth? A lisp with forth syntax?
17:48:50 <lament> Or a forth with sexprs?
17:48:55 <gilbertbsd> no a clean consistent (with the quote)-like forth.
17:49:09 <lament> A high-level forth, then?
17:49:16 <gilbertbsd> ummm not really.
17:49:27 <gilbertbsd> maybe better yet, a python-like forth.
17:49:29 <lament> You can't really have a clean consistent language with pointers, you know :)
17:49:30 <Speuler> syntax is more forth-like than lisp-like
17:50:04 <Speuler> couldn't find a download site
17:50:05 <gilbertbsd> there are just two explicit loop words in python: while and for. and then for branching there is if/else.
17:50:38 <gilbertbsd> a forth with most of the synonyms weeded out might be closer to that.
17:50:42 <Speuler> however, it would make sense to find "tea time" as it is at least 4 years more recent than the version of lifo which i have
17:50:57 <gilbertbsd> do you have sources and docs?
17:51:02 <lament> gilbertbsd: so you just want a small forth? No other, more important similarities to scheme?
17:51:10 <lament> Colorforth, then :)
17:51:25 <lament> Or even Machineforth. Or eforth.
17:51:27 <Speuler> sources, yes. docs, not sure
17:51:34 <Speuler> think so
17:51:43 <gilbertbsd> lament I don't _understand_ colorforth. I have tried.
17:52:01 <lament> however
17:52:21 <lament> <lament> To me, [simplicity] means a small core + a good module system for hiding the complexity in libraries
17:52:34 <lament> i.e. just a small core would not be enough
17:53:06 <gilbertbsd> a small core is all forth has had for eons.
17:53:44 <gilbertbsd> I think its the reason its not so terribly popular because each person looking for a library writes a forth AND includes what they want.
17:54:12 <gilbertbsd> libraries should be easy to create. heck call it an external dictionary if necessary.
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17:54:56 <lament> you need modules with clearly defined interfaces
17:55:34 <gilbertbsd> is that going to be hard?
17:55:47 <lament> no, the hard thing would be to convince people to use them :)
17:55:54 <gilbertbsd> also need Forth be OO?
17:56:27 <XeF4> depends how you look at OO imho
17:56:42 <gilbertbsd> smalltalkish is my view.
17:56:52 <onetom> then use smalltalk
17:56:53 <gilbertbsd> tu le monde is an object :D
17:56:55 <gilbertbsd> No.
17:57:33 <lament> gilbertbsd: that's not possible in the current, low-level forth
17:57:59 <gilbertbsd> is there a 'forth paradigm'?
17:59:20 <gilbertbsd> eg smalltalk makes everything an object.
17:59:36 <gilbertbsd> so forth makes everthing an .... ?
17:59:57 <lament> a word.
18:00:01 <Speuler> "tea time: forth syntax and lisp structures"
18:00:31 <gilbertbsd> a word. "In forth, everything is a word".
18:00:33 <gilbertbsd> is that right?
18:02:25 <lament> hm, no, it's not
18:02:32 <lament> Everything is a cell :)
18:02:40 <gilbertbsd> ah okay.
18:02:44 <XeF4> everything is a collection of 0 or more bits
18:02:56 <gilbertbsd> but that defines ALL of information.
18:03:01 <lament> Forth is completely typeless, it seems.
18:03:05 <lament> gilbertbsd: exactly!
18:03:12 <lament> gilbertbsd: types are restrictions on how objects can behave
18:03:18 <lament> gilbertbsd: forth has no restrictions
18:03:23 <lament> therefore, no types
18:03:31 <gilbertbsd> sure it does. it defies simple definition and growing.
18:03:57 <lament> that's for code
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18:04:24 <gilbertbsd> lament have you heard of strongforth?
18:04:38 <lament> of course, you can talk about stuff like create... does> being classes, but that's silly
18:04:39 <lament> gilbertbsd: yes
18:04:53 <lament> it seems too much trouble for little benefit
18:05:14 <gilbertbsd> It all boils down to forth being 'stack'ey.
18:05:30 <lament> well, you can think of lisp as being stackey, too
18:05:38 <gilbertbsd> lisp is 'list'ey.
18:05:39 <lament> many lisp VMs have a data stack
18:05:54 <gilbertbsd> according to sources, C is a stack based language too.
18:05:59 <lament> but items on the stack have different types
18:06:03 <gilbertbsd> almost all VM's are stack based.
18:06:36 <lament> Lisp is different, because, like forth, it's not statically typed
18:08:08 <lament> But it's type-aware :)
18:08:28 <gilbertbsd> what would you like a forth to look like lament?
18:09:15 <lament> I have no idea. I'm not sure it can be salvaged :)
18:09:32 <gilbertbsd> ever?
18:09:40 <lament> What I mean is
18:10:08 <lament> You can't add relatively high-level features such as types without disturbing the low-level ones, which are really unique to forth
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18:10:33 <gilbertbsd> okay lets leave 'types' out and also leave out other such distractions.
18:10:55 <lament> then you simply have Forth :)
18:11:17 <gilbertbsd> but what would your forth look like (if you were to create one).
18:11:27 <lament> Theoretically, anything is possible in Forth already. You want data types - just add a set of words for them
18:11:28 <lament> hm
18:11:44 <lament> I'd probably rather create Joy than Forth :)
18:12:04 <gilbertbsd> why not just do scheme or lisp?
18:12:09 <gilbertbsd> whats so cool about joy?
18:12:22 <lament> It's quite silly.
18:12:31 <gilbertbsd> the language?
18:12:38 <lament> yeah
18:13:02 <gilbertbsd> is it easy to implement?
18:13:12 <lament> quite.
18:13:18 <lament> It's not exactly practical, though.
18:13:23 <lament> Indeed, not practical at all.
18:13:30 <lament> Anyway, teatime. Which should I make - Irish Breakfast, Ceylon UVA Highland, Ceylon Kenilworth, Jasmine, Apricot, Red Rose or Oolong?..
18:13:54 <gilbertbsd> Oolong.
18:14:18 <gilbertbsd> its the closest thing to OO :D
18:14:29 <lament> hehe.
18:14:48 <lament> Of course, according to the standard Pinyin romanization, it should be Wulong
18:15:14 <lament> (Black Dragon)
18:15:48 <lament> That's a cool name for a language.
18:15:59 <lament> Teatime: OOlong :)
18:16:22 <gilbertbsd> yes I don't see the point in naming languages 'joy' or 'j'. too much ambiguity.
18:18:43 <lament> forth -- too much ambiguity, too!
18:19:16 <lament> And Python, and Lisp, and any other languages named by english words...
18:19:31 <gilbertbsd> very unimaginative I tell you.
18:19:42 <gilbertbsd> Why couldn't lisp be called Lispeth?
18:19:45 <lament> Hmm, a programming language called oolong already exists :(
18:19:51 <gilbertbsd> noooo!
18:41:08 <Speuler> Robert: /me said i got a jupiter ace ? i never did ...
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