00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.11.24 00:00:49 hmm 00:00:58 what would something called a@ do? 00:01:23 Well, @ is recognized as "fetch", so it probably fetches some sort of type referred to by "a". 00:01:25 if you mean from Machine Forth, push the contents of the address register to the stack 00:01:32 hmm 00:01:42 Heh. There you go. 00:01:53 i assume it's just some variable, which is why it's surprising that it fatally crashed ppforth 00:02:36 lament : Well, I wouldn't write to the address register if I were you. :) 00:03:07 Or to a location the address register points to. 00:03:18 don't know if it's the same in ppforth, but normally it's just a general-ish register to make array accesses faster 00:03:22 than keeping the pointers on the stack 00:04:12 Fractal: i didn't write to it 00:04:24 i just wrote a@ 00:04:38 lament : Oh... That is odd.. Check the docs, I guess... 00:04:46 docs? ppforth? You must be joking :) 00:04:53 Heh. 00:09:30 can't you disassemble/see/look at the a@ source? 00:10:03 Ya, or does ppforth have a "see" word? 00:10:05 My attention was elsewhere. Yes, I am in Edmonton. And on that note I need to go. I hope you two have a good night. It's nice to see some undeadness in a FORTH channel :) 00:10:08 --- quit: Sulvey ("FOR TH") 00:10:35 Fractal: yes, it does 00:10:42 a@ seems to be a builtin 00:10:55 UNDEAD 00:10:56 lament : Oh, ok... Ya, you'll have to disassemble it, I suppose. 00:10:57 MMMM BRAINS 00:11:05 fridge : Heh. 00:11:06 hmm 00:13:44 By the way, how hard it is to add local variables to forth? 00:13:50 s/forth/a forth 00:14:21 ANS defines a forth standard to it, but because of a fixed address dictionary, it can be tough to implement local namespaces. 00:14:38 As a consequence, few forths support the ANS locals wordset fully. 00:15:04 Even gforth uses it's locals on the return stack, in violation of ANS. 00:15:39 gforth had a locals stack last I checked and last I checked, ANS allows locals on the return stack 00:15:42 What I've done in frugal is set aside a separate space for temporarily defining words which have an offset into the return stack. 00:16:12 XeF4 : It says that locals must be accessible from within a do loop 00:17:13 you can still put them on the return stack if you're clever 00:17:33 since ?do can bump up all the local addresses by 1 00:17:41 well, how hard is it to violate ANS and put them on the return stack? 00:17:41 remember that ?do is immediate in most systems 00:18:49 XeF4 : You mean by 2, but I see your point. 00:19:13 XeF4 : Actually that's quite clever. 00:19:14 er, let me rephrase, the indexes are incremented, but the addresses stay the same 00:19:19 lament : It's not especially difficult. 00:19:35 (relative indices to the return pointer) 00:19:43 XeF4 : Yes, gotcha. 00:20:32 lament : The biggest problem is working out how to create a temporary namespace that doesn't conflict with the code currently being compiled. 00:21:13 You can make it, say, 1000 cells above here, or allocate some other space. 00:25:53 --- join: proteusguy (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 00:28:57 hmm, ppforth creator explains the reason for ppforth not having postpone: "I have not fully understood it yet." 00:30:04 Heh. 00:30:10 Well, postpone is somewhat controversial. 00:30:35 Essentially, it compiles the following word, disregarding immediacy. 00:30:56 So, for instance, frugal defines it like so: : postpone ' , ; immediate 00:31:27 isforth doesn't have it at all: i440r doesn't like it for some reason he failed to successfully convey to me. 00:31:56 I think it is quite implicit: It postpones the execution of an immediate word by compiling it instead of executing it. 00:33:05 hm, ppforth doesn't have ' either 00:33:11 ... :) 00:33:29 What? You're kidding? 00:33:41 I've always considered ' a staple of forth. :) 00:33:44 oh, nevermind. it does. 00:33:51 Heh. Ya, I figured. :) 00:35:49 looks like frugal has a weird postpone, too :) 00:36:06 or does it have separate compilation and interpretation dictionaries? 00:36:53 XeF4 : No... Have I misunderstood postpone? 00:37:08 perhaps 00:37:23 postpone compile compilation semantics 00:37:44 so postpone + will create a word that compiles code for + 00:37:57 er 00:38:10 : foo postpone + ; will create a word that compiles code for + 00:38:23 so 2 3 foo will not give 5, but append the code for + to the dictionary 00:38:31 Well, that's what frugal will do too. 00:38:38 : postpone ' , ; immediate 00:38:40 : bar [ foo ] ; will yield a word equivalent to + 00:38:55 Er, wait. 00:39:05 OK, that's what compile is for in frugal. 00:39:40 OK, I guess postpone is done differently. 00:40:44 Yes, the compilation methods are the only real difference in API. 01:37:26 --- quit: proteusguy (Connection reset by peer) 01:37:29 --- join: proteus_ (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 01:45:51 Has anyone considered creating a "sensible" standard for Forth? Kinda like what R5RS is to scheme. 01:46:27 thousands and thousands of people, but noone listens to their authority 01:46:55 practically everyone who has written his own forth has devised his own "sensible" standard :-) 01:47:31 that's rather unfortunate. 01:48:04 and then there is ANS and F38 01:48:31 Well, yes and no. The reason forth has survived and evolved as it has is because of it's diversity and stubborness of it's programmers. 01:48:53 :) 01:50:15 standards are too important to leave them to ANSI :) 01:50:55 Heh. 01:51:22 The Scheme case is probably the best. Most people don't even know there's an ANSI standard for scheme. 01:51:32 this is inviting a lynching in here, but I think ANS is OK if it used as a lowest common denominator instead of a useful language 01:51:37 (just as RxRS is) 01:51:55 thats the wonderful thing about standards 01:51:59 theres so many to choose from 01:52:05 -Andy Tannenbaum 01:52:20 I didn't know there was an ANSI scheme 01:52:23 Actually, I agree. ANSI standards aren't generally too bad. Even the forth one. 01:52:25 when was it finalized? 01:52:50 ANSI terminals are good. 01:54:09 XeF4: around 1991 it seems. The people working on Scheme weren't even notified :) 01:55:50 I don't see it searching ansi.org 01:55:58 are you not thinking of the IEEE standard that expired last year? 01:56:26 http://www.acm.org/tsc/sstd.html 01:57:12 aha, the IEEE standard was endorsed by ANSI 02:24:47 --- quit: proteus_ (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 02:25:11 --- join: proteus_ (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 03:28:26 --- quit: proteus_ (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:28:46 --- join: proteus_ (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 04:20:03 --- quit: lament ("mental mantle") 05:00:07 --- quit: proteus_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:00:22 --- join: proteus_ (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 05:23:41 --- quit: proteus_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:23:46 --- join: proteus_ (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 06:32:46 --- quit: onetom (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:33:40 --- join: onetom (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 06:57:18 --- join: tathi (~josh@ip68-9-58-207.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 07:06:10 --- join: onetom_ (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 07:07:18 --- quit: onetom (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:13:06 --- quit: onetom_ (Remote closed the connection) 07:13:39 --- join: onetom (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 07:30:36 --- quit: onetom (Remote closed the connection) 07:30:48 --- join: onetom (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 08:09:02 --- join: onetom_ (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 08:11:10 --- quit: onetom (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:17:07 --- quit: onetom_ (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:20:26 --- quit: Robert (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:22:02 --- join: Robert (~Robert@robost86.tsps1.freenet6.net) joined #forth 08:53:00 --- join: onetom (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 09:01:37 --- join: I440r (~mark4@sdn-ap-002tnnashP0098.dialsprint.net) joined #forth 09:07:07 --- join: onetom_ (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 09:15:43 --- quit: onetom (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:15:47 --- quit: onetom_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:25:07 --- nick: proteus_ -> proteusguy 09:28:40 Hey all :) 09:30:02 --- join: onetom (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 09:47:38 --- quit: onetom (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:53:08 --- join: onetom (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 10:08:43 --- quit: onetom (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:49:37 --- join: onetom__ (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 11:01:05 --- quit: onetom__ (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:25:46 --- join: onetom__ (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 13:22:07 --- join: njd (~junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 13:32:12 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:32:12 --- join: proteusguy (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 13:44:46 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:45:08 --- join: proteusguy (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 15:10:53 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 15:19:39 --- quit: njd ("[BX] Dr. Kavorkian would KILL to use BitchX. Shouldn't you?") 15:52:01 --- join: njd (junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 15:54:29 --- quit: njd (Client Quit) 15:55:29 --- join: njdbx (junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 16:02:56 exit 16:02:58 ack 16:02:59 --- quit: njdbx ("BitchX: try our lowfat flavor too!") 16:05:48 --- join: njd (junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 16:56:19 --- quit: njd ("Client Exiting") 17:08:24 --- join: njd (junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 17:22:08 --- quit: njd ("Client Exiting") 18:03:35 --- join: proteus_ (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 18:03:49 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:10:31 --- join: lament (~lament@24.78.145.92) joined #forth 18:19:13 --- nick: proteus_ -> proteusguy 19:06:33 What the hell 19:06:35 http://www.ultratechnology.com/efzen.htm 19:08:04 Yes, I'd take everthing you read on CM's site with a grain of salt if I were you. 19:08:24 " These are also attributes to Forth as a language and a philosophy. Indeed, Zen and Forth also bear striking similarity in their historical development and evolution. This aspect of similarity between Forth and Zen has not been well documented, and this is one purpose of this book. " 19:09:35 Is that a problem? 19:09:46 No, it's just hilarious 19:10:52 Heh. 19:12:02 ultratechnology is not CM's site 19:12:24 Er. Jeff's site. 19:12:49 But his views are essentially clones of CM's, so... 19:13:04 And much of the stuff on their is about and written by CM. 19:13:13 Or ads for his hardware 19:13:40 I don't know about that.. JF's views seem to have a generous helping of mental instability mixed in 19:14:09 Heh. 19:14:16 And CM's don't? 19:14:38 CM keeps mostly to himself, so it's hard to tell 19:14:42 heh. 19:15:04 Ya, that's true. And maybe 1/2 of what he does say makes sense. 19:15:44 Unfortunatley, his intellect is solely focused on system minimalism. 19:16:13 http://www.colorforth.com/binding.html 19:16:55 It's pretty hard to think of CM as a sane man after reading that page 19:18:12 Agreed. His ideas on portability are simply badly thought out. 19:18:38 I do agree about fixed/floating point though. Often people use floating points when fixed point would in fact conceptually be better. 19:19:45 what about "Conditionals"? 19:20:33 I don't see anything too insane on that page.. 19:20:46 I have no problem with his views on conditionals on that page. 19:21:06 I haven't much problem with his views on portability on that page 19:21:09 "A conditional is obviously executed at Run time. Let the programmer make the decision at Edit time. This might reduce the range or versatility of the code, but it also reduces testing and improves speed and reliability. " 19:21:38 if anything, it encourages rewrites before cruft has time to pile up 19:22:02 Well, conditionals often are calculated in poor places. 19:22:24 For instance, take the C loop: 19:22:33 for (i=0;i<9000000;i++) ... 19:22:46 That conditional is compared 9000000 times 19:22:51 Evaluated, I mean. 19:23:32 Well, you can't get rid of it 19:24:18 lament : Well, consider this: for(i=0;i<90000;i+=10) { a; a; a; ... } 19:24:23 An "unrolled" loop. 19:24:42 10 times less comparisons. 19:25:25 And there are other ways of calculating in blocks as well. 19:25:39 Well, the conditional's still there :) 19:25:57 However, the program became much dirtier 19:26:16 Well, that's debatable. 19:26:25 : b a a a a a a a a a a ; : c b b b b b b b b b b ; : d c c c c c c c c c ; 19:26:34 heh 19:26:56 One of the most common tradeoffs in computer science is cpu time/memory. 19:27:30 In any case, unrolling loops is a simple operation that a compiler can be entrusted with 19:28:00 Yes, true, and I don't in fact think that's his main point here. 19:28:16 Conditional compilation is the problem. 19:28:29 Well, I don't have any problems with that part 19:29:19 OK, then. 19:30:04 CM's main problem, IMO, is that he doesn't understand that portability is not a solid attribute, it's more.. a process. 19:30:24 Well, the 'portability' part on that page is a bit weird 19:30:27 Achieve portability by factoring out code that is identical. Accept that different systems will be different. 19:30:30 from that page 19:30:33 Yes 19:30:39 That's basically what portability means :) 19:30:52 Yes, but also on the page is "Don't try for platform portability" 19:30:59 Which is why it's weird 19:31:13 I read that section to mean "Portability is nice if you can get it without sacrificing anything, but otherwise no big loss." 19:31:20 I think he writes most things while drunk. 19:31:27 Heh. 19:31:42 That would make a lot of sense. 19:31:43 No, actually, I do have a large amount of respect for CM. 19:31:59 He has some very innovative ideas. 19:32:06 --- join: I440r_ (~mark4@sdn-ap-010tnnashP0217.dialsprint.net) joined #forth 19:32:17 Like using colour as a syntactical specifier. 19:32:19 Certainly. He's mad, though. 19:32:33 He's rather like RMS in that aspect. 19:33:06 No, I don't think so. RMS has never been particularly innovative. I respect RMS for completely different reasons. 19:33:21 His dedication, mostly. 19:33:32 emacs is rather innovative, whether you like it or not :) 19:34:14 Not really. ISPF, IBMs editor, interface was fairly similar, and had a built in programming language. 19:34:26 Massive conglomerated editors were nothing new. 19:35:00 ...And I could probably find another language which uses colour. 19:36:18 --- quit: I440r_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:36:35 Damn, it's hard to find Forth stuff on the net. Most of it isn't free. 19:36:41 Well, you might have a tough time, but you almost certainly wouldn't find one that uses it as a compilation state specifier as colourforth does. This, I feel is the real genius. 19:37:08 Oh ya? That's a shame really. 19:48:00 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 19:48:24 hmm, interesting, Thoughtful Programming And Forth claims that CM prefers tail recursion to loops 19:48:44 (if i understand it right) 19:49:13 A philosophy I agree with. 19:49:17 Yes, so do I. 19:49:26 Cool. 19:57:28 Is there an extremely basic forth (only primitive words) I could play with? 19:57:53 Hmmm... Let's see... 19:57:57 What platform? 19:59:00 i386 19:59:26 although i'd much prefer it to have a portable VM 20:00:20 Hmm... Well, none really leap to mind. 20:00:28 lament: eforth? 20:01:11 Yes, but I couldn't find any eforth docs or an implementation 20:01:27 did you check taygeta? 20:01:30 All i did find was that 'eforth and zen' book, of which only the first chapter is freely available 20:02:55 hmm 20:03:12 interesting 20:03:42 there're no direct mentions of eforth on taygeta, but it does say that ppforth, which i have on my palm pilot, is eforth 20:04:23 http://www.taygeta.com/forthcomp.html 20:04:34 I have a copy of eforth _somewhere_ around here, too 20:05:20 OOH 20:05:25 Fare did a linux eforth port 20:06:16 that's pretty sweet 21:20:26 * lament suffers from lack of documentation 21:31:32 lament : Are you a fan of doom? 21:33:34 Fractal: Somewhat. 21:35:15 Ya, I thought it was cool when ID released the code. I made a few silly changes and that. 21:35:20 Changed the codes around... 21:35:45 Also increased the damage done by the rocket launcher so that it would kill everything in the room (you included if you didn't IDDQD) 21:36:33 Heh. 21:36:52 I don't do any doom coding 21:36:56 I just play it :) 21:37:04 Oh. Heh. Fun game too. 21:37:35 I remember playing it over the modem. Took like 10 calls before me and buddy got it working... 21:38:01 It would've been easier, but of course, you had to hang up the phone to dial with the modem. :) 21:41:14 I think they've made client/server TCP/IP versions since. 21:45:03 Of course. 21:48:55 do either of you still play 'Rise of the Triad'? 21:49:06 and is there a TCP version alive? 21:58:16 I've never heard of that game. Sorry 21:59:01 XeF4: it's not exactly popular. 22:01:11 Is it Free Software? 22:03:29 no, it was shareware 22:03:48 Oh... 22:05:07 --- join: galexand (~galexand@adsl-18-2-209.rdu.bellsouth.net) joined #forth 22:05:27 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 22:06:58 --- quit: galexand (Client Quit) 22:07:38 Hey serg. Don't message me, please. 22:07:56 Cool. FreeBSD is supposed to be good, though I don't use it much. 22:08:26 oBSD feels more integreated... 22:08:35 Plus, it's Canadian. 22:08:42 tryed to port my soko to isForth - but it's error msg's aren't usefool, and i failed to quickly write my own err-reporter 22:09:01 :( 22:09:11 but oBSD isn't at local pirate warez market 22:09:25 No, it's at www.openbsd.org 22:09:37 i got hard traffic limits 22:10:00 Is 100 mb too much? 22:10:27 even from inet-cafe it's too expencive, any warez costs 80 rub / CD, 32 rub = 1$ 22:10:30 Because that's all you need for base system, compilers, and manpages. 22:10:44 Serg_Penguin : Is that in USD? 22:11:10 800 M = 7? $, and overuse is very expencive 22:11:26 any warez here costs 2+2/3 USD 22:11:42 --- join: Soap` (flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 22:12:05 Serg_Penguin : Well what about 100 mb? Should be less than $1 22:12:11 US 22:12:12 per CD, price is only production cost + some profit 22:12:33 But... FreeBSD and OpenBSD are both freely downloadable. 22:12:44 100mb ~ 10 $, 7? is regexp, 70 to 79 22:12:59 Ouch. 22:13:18 Well, you can order the CDs for $40 canadian. 22:13:48 4 freely ? will u be so kind to point me at FREE inet provider in Moscow :( 22:14:45 even if late-nite downloading via modem, it's > than 3 $ 22:15:09 Well, whatever. FreeBSD is good too, though I prefer OpenBSD. 22:15:21 what's the diff ? 22:15:35 Well, for starters, it isn't x86 specific. 22:15:43 and how can i setup _minimal_distro ? 22:16:10 it swallowed all 124 megz of my scratch HDD 22:16:18 The base system is about 50 megs. 22:16:37 i plan to buy really cheap 486 notebook, they have ~80M HDD 22:16:39 Yes, oBSD is quite a bit smaller too. 22:17:04 can i live w/o gcc, perl etc ? 22:17:06 Serg_Penguin : My 486 notebook has a 320 mb HDD, with 32 mb core, and it runs oBSD nicely. 22:17:29 maybe without perl, but gcc is pretty essential 22:17:34 Serg_Penguin : It includes perl in the base install, and the other compilers are evailable in the comp package: ~ 30 mb 22:17:46 Yes, a c compiler is essential. 22:17:58 i installed only bin , no comp, but gcc is here 22:18:10 Yes, but you're using FreeBSD 22:18:38 12 C compiler is a whale of fat w/ a cherry of brain 22:19:27 so are people who use colour codes on IRC 22:19:38 Well... It's an order of magnitude smarter than a forth compiler, and not signifigantly more bloated. 22:19:52 Just larger. 22:20:07 9 now i really agree w/ Chuck and Fox about lo-fat computing and their sarcasm on modern OSes and compilers 22:20:10 order of mangitude smarter and 3 orders bigger 22:20:21 XeF4 : Yes, at least. 22:20:48 -> XeF4 whadda u have against color ? 22:21:05 Well, the thing about simplicity is that it's only desirable if your aplications are too limited for complex program creation. 22:21:20 Take unix for example: 22:21:22 Serg_Penguin: I's a very impolite way of attracting attention to oneself 22:21:37 Serg: it's distracting 22:21:49 Everything is abstracted and modularized, simply because the language it's written and designed in (C) is wretched. 22:22:44 Serg_Penguin : Are you using your freebsd system now? 22:22:54 The good thing about abstraction is that it's built-in into the brain 22:23:07 no, i'm now at work, but freebsd is at home 22:23:17 Serg_Penguin : What do you normally use? 22:23:43 WinXP (warez) + Linux RH 7.2 22:24:12 lament : Yes, abstraction, when done correctly, can be quite useful, but unfortunatley, often it is just used to mask poor code design. 22:24:28 Serg_Penguin : Ah. 22:24:39 linux and freebsd are only non-warez soft at my home :) 22:24:53 Fractal: well, it's useful even when it does that 22:25:09 Fractal: but yes, in any case abstraction by itself can't be blamed for problems caused by other stuff 22:25:34 linux is almost 1G so i wanna smaller thing, ex for MSDOS :) 22:25:55 and XP is over 1G after setup :( 22:26:09 Serg_Penguin: linux fits on a floppy 22:26:28 w/ what libc ? 22:26:59 i want a unix to fit in, say, 30 megs, cause i plan to buy old notebook 22:27:07 not sure 22:27:12 of course, that's without gcc 22:27:26 and in 8M of RAM, preferably w/ no more than 8M swap 22:28:19 * Serg_Penguin likes binary RPM's ( but rh's rpm is b0rken and mega sux ) 22:28:27 Generally, you use uClibc for libc on floppy distros. 22:28:45 Or the binaries are compiled static against uClibc 22:29:22 Serg_Penguin : You probably won't be able to get it in 30 mbs. 22:29:30 Serg_Penguin : At least not a useable system. 22:29:32 Certainly not GCC. 22:29:36 what distro will u advise me ? i got muLinux but it's really _random_, if not say crazzzy 22:29:38 Ya. 22:29:47 Fractal: well, you can get a useable system 22:29:59 depends on what you think of as 'useful' :) 22:30:07 err, useable. 22:30:24 Ya. True. You could get by on 30 mb for reading mail. 22:30:51 Serg_Penguin : What you want is about 300 mb and OpenBSD. 22:30:53 I find my palm pilot quite useful :) 22:31:09 Ya, I used to. 22:31:16 Oh, and you can run linux on one. 22:31:20 I got bored with it though. 22:31:28 Yeah, uClinux. 22:31:37 useful = MC + lynx + mail + news + irc + icq + zgv(pic viewer).... maybe forgot something but surely not emacs or X :( 22:31:39 although that's silly 22:31:54 Serg_Penguin: all that should fit in 30mb. 22:31:56 Actually, those uClinux guys were supposed to port to the m68000 so I could run it on my Mac SE. 22:32:09 MidnightCommander is a must - i'm blind and lame w/o it 22:32:42 Ya, you can fit that in 30 mb, however you'll have to go with linux: BSD doesn't have a console framebuffer. 22:32:49 Actually, FreeBSD may. 22:33:29 + maybe mpg123+aumix if 486 can crank it 22:33:58 Heh. Well, you'll have lots of fun listening to your 2 MP3s. 22:34:05 hehehe 22:34:24 i use lo-bitrate so 2-3 songs on floppy 22:34:27 Also, odds are a 486 laptop will not be equipped with sound. Not to mention linux-compatible sound. 22:35:38 Yeah, so have fun to listening to your 2 mp3s on the builtin speaker :) 22:35:46 Heh. 22:35:53 'dizzy miss lizzy' w/ floppy scratch accompanyment sowndz mega kewl 22:36:56 once i brought it to my friend and played right from floppy :) 22:37:19 speaker ? no, covox rulez 22:37:30 does linux have covox driver ? 22:37:42 What's covox? 22:37:49 heh 22:38:01 ad-hoc DAC on LPT port 22:38:03 it's the sound system that you have to weld together :) 22:38:10 Oh, I see. 22:38:52 Problem with the LPT port is that you'll be limited to 8-bit sound. 22:39:17 anyway better than 1 bit of speaker :) 22:39:26 What kind of sample rates can you get out of the lpt? 22:39:50 * Serg_Penguin encodes mp3 w/ 11050 22:40:00 Well, actually, the speaker is not 1 bit. It uses a different method of encoding sound: Not PCM. 22:40:20 Well, that's not that bad. 22:40:28 'course no stereo... 22:40:33 6khz is enough 4r speech 22:40:55 * Serg_Penguin can hardly hear stereo 22:41:14 8khz/8 bits is the VoIP standard, I believe. 22:41:21 Anyway, why would you install linux instead of just installing forth and implementing all the necessary programs in it? 22:41:24 Serg_Penguin : You must not be listening to the right kind of music. 22:41:31 :) 22:41:44 my mumblers stand on CRT in 3 inch from each other, wire is 5 inch long :( 22:41:58 Get some Rolling Stones, or CCR, or Jefferson Airplane. 22:42:32 * Serg_Penguin listens to early Beatles, rock'n'roll, Elvis Presly etc... 22:43:07 Ah yes... I like the Beatles, not so much the early ones. 22:43:27 You know "Three Cool Cats"? 22:43:27 ham radio men are happy w/ 400hz - 2khz band, it's like 4k wav\ 22:44:12 That's interesting. In Canada, we can use 3khz for frequencies below 30 mb. 22:44:15 Er, mhz. 22:44:48 -> are u ham ? 22:44:59 No, I just know about it. 22:45:23 I've been thinking about getting my licence: I think I could do it effortlessly. 22:46:06 Plus, it was recently made free-of-charge here. 22:46:14 i was 'tinking' too, but RU suffers from spy-mania, and at Stalin times hams suffered hard 22:46:44 and i dunno like Putin, child of KGB - that times may return 22:47:08 Yes, well don't think you're that much worse off than the people in the US. 22:47:19 ?? 22:47:22 The US has a long history of discouraging free thought too. 22:47:45 USSR and the US: 2 evil empires. 1 down, 1 to go. 22:48:04 --- quit: lament ("mental mantle") 22:48:59 number of political victims in USSR is comparable to a war ( not world war but big one ) 22:49:05 so what in US ? 22:50:04 Well, it's a difficult distinction to make. In the USSR, it has always been political. In the US, it has always been for capitalist reasons. 22:50:33 i say _political_, number of working (no-political) people wasted for violent 'industrialization' _does_ compare to WWII losses 22:50:56 And if you think the US is devoid of casualties from this, you're wrong. Consider cigarettes. This industry was pushed and sponsored by the US, and probably an equal number of people have died from this as from political persecution. 22:51:33 -> fractal u mega wrong. No one forces u to smoke w/ gun. 22:52:39 Serg_Penguin : No, they just brainwash you with unrestricted and unregulated advertisements, and then keep you smoking with a highly addictive, dangerous drug. All in the name of "free enterprise". 22:53:26 but here if u dunno come and yell what u told to yell - u are public enemy -> GOTO slaves building war factorys 22:53:44 in 30's and, ssems, in near future 22:54:26 Well, it's not as obvious in the west, but the persecution is similar, it's just the motivation is quite different, so people don't often make the distinction. 22:54:54 all adv's are easyly regulated by power swith. i neither smoke nor drink nor 'sting' drugs, despite drugs are adv'ed _almost_ openly here 22:55:39 Well, as they are here. Marijuana is essentially legal where I am. 22:56:27 once i hit wrong key on TV and heard how c00l is to have sex under MJ - at prime time, all-RU chan 22:56:48 now i got no TV :) 22:57:10 Serg_Penguin : Well, it's not just cigs/drugs/etc, it's also a huge number of other things. Consider slavery in the US. The US was built upon the backs of africans and chineese, and there are still huge racial class issues in the US. 22:57:32 Serg_Penguin : Heh, yeah, TV is horrible. 22:57:36 i just dunno need it, and i turn on radio for 5 mins a day - 2 be4 i go out, 3 be4 i sleep 22:57:55 Heh. 22:58:02 racism is because of jewish religion, read Old Testament 22:58:21 No, that is just one instance of racism. 22:58:57 all that crap - judaism, islam, xianity - should be holocausted 22:59:11 ideas, _not_ people 22:59:23 Consider Arab-Americans. Post sept 11th, many of them had to fear for their life - many were jailed without trial - much as in stalinist russia. 22:59:42 Serg_Penguin : Yes, I don't believe in religion either. 23:00:29 jews said 'bite!' tu USa, and it serves as their dog 23:01:36 USA must stop be a dog of eye-and-pyramyd (look at 1-dollar bill) and remember they are sons of Great Rome 23:02:23 Yes, perhaps. 23:02:27 usa->britain->rome->ancient greece-> ???? 23:02:54 Well, for starters, britan was only partially built by rome. 23:03:17 yes, + germany + normanns 23:03:23 but _no_ jews 23:03:37 What's the point? 23:04:35 point is what's Rome always turned barbarians into civilized men and newer hated anyone as 'untermensh' 23:05:06 jews hate everyone as 'untermens' and try to turn other nations into cattle 23:05:19 as 'barbarian', i like 1st more :) 23:05:35 and think second must be eradicted 23:05:40 Some jews may have done that in the past, but I know several jews: all of them kind, generous, polite people. 23:06:10 now usa is almost taken over by 2nd, but it should obey to 1st 23:07:00 so just read Old Testament and compare it to nowday's events, start from Arab issue 23:07:55 i can give strict search strings in RU but sorry not in ENG 23:08:14 No, that's OK. 23:08:58 * Serg_Penguin may lose link - need to test a hub 23:09:34