00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.11.21
00:03:04 <Fractal> I can't think of anything stupider than endianness. It's completely ridiculous that this was standardized decades ago...
00:15:20 <I440r> heh
00:15:36 <I440r> intel standardized on a different standard :P
00:15:54 <Fractal> Heh. Yeah, that's the beauty of standards. There're so many to choose from. :)
00:16:05 <I440r> :)
00:16:06 <Fractal> -Andy Tanenbaum, I think.
00:16:16 <I440r> sounds about right :)
00:17:16 <I440r> i think i gotta reinstate the option to build my kernel using JUMP next instead of inline next
00:17:27 <I440r> i think the debugger is going to need to be able to patch into next
00:17:38 <I440r> only way to do that is to patch the ONE AND ONLY next :P
00:18:37 <Fractal> How is the debugger coming along?
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00:18:49 <Serg_Penguin> hi I440r
00:19:22 <Fractal> Hey serg
00:19:25 <I440r> serg!
00:19:30 <I440r> i wrote the decompiler :)
00:19:37 <Serg_Penguin> cool
00:19:41 <I440r> did that pre-release fix yor problems ?
00:19:43 <Fractal> Serg_Penguin : I use frugal: www.hcsw.org/frugal/
00:19:58 <Fractal> However, I'm still working on it. Gforth runs nicely on oBSD too, though.
00:20:13 <Fractal> You may want to port to that instead.
00:21:06 <Serg_Penguin> -> I440r i tryed u'r see.f - outputs hi-half chars, looks like messed RU codepage
00:21:14 <Serg_Penguin> >name bug gone
00:21:24 <Serg_Penguin> key linebuf persists
00:21:33 <Serg_Penguin> try this:
00:21:43 <Serg_Penguin> --- shebang run line ----
00:21:59 <Serg_Penguin> .( hi ! ) key drop .( Ooops ! )
00:22:03 <Serg_Penguin> EOF
00:22:22 <I440r> ok hang on, booting laptop again to test that :)
00:22:36 <I440r> resuming from suspended session on laptop.....
00:23:02 <Serg_Penguin> Oops shows only after <Enter> ! and all time forth keeps in 'ps -aux' from 2nd console
00:23:50 <Serg_Penguin> I440r, does isforth work on BSD ?
00:24:15 <I440r> weird!
00:24:20 <Serg_Penguin> ??
00:24:20 <I440r> no - not yet
00:24:39 <Serg_Penguin> how does KEY behave ?
00:24:42 <I440r> bsd syscalls are different
00:24:49 <I440r> as you stated
00:24:54 <I440r> ill have to investigate that
00:25:04 <I440r> ohhh i think i know why
00:25:11 <Serg_Penguin> why ?
00:25:11 <I440r> args are processeed FIRST
00:25:28 <I440r> the terminal has NOT been put in coniacal mode yet
00:25:33 <I440r> canonical
00:25:34 <I440r> grr
00:25:39 <I440r> must learn to type
00:26:47 <Serg_Penguin> does isForth have internal multitask ?
00:26:54 <I440r> no. not yet
00:27:09 <I440r> hang on im going to give you a cheezy fix for that bug :)
00:27:24 <Serg_Penguin> can i work w/ gfx mode on isForth ?
00:27:44 <Serg_Penguin> at least VESA, better MESA :)
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00:28:18 <Serg_Penguin> -> I440r pse dunno fix bugs in hurry, i can wait :)
00:29:20 <Serg_Penguin> -> all What Unix forth has gfx and/or sound capability ?
00:29:42 <I440r> ok
00:29:45 * Serg_Penguin doesn't want to support windoze by writng DirectX apps
00:29:53 <I440r> its not a bug fix its a work arround
00:29:57 <I440r> heres the problem
00:30:10 <I440r> when isforth fires up it runs default and then jumps to quit
00:30:16 <I440r> default is a defered chain
00:30:33 <I440r> the first thing in that chain is the word to check the command line tail and the shebang stuff
00:30:43 <I440r> the terminal has not been initialized
00:30:44 <I440r> so.
00:30:54 <I440r> the first line of your script after the shebang should be
00:31:03 <I440r> initterm
00:31:08 <I440r> to initialize the terminal
00:31:16 <I440r> the last line of the script should be
00:31:20 <I440r> termreset
00:31:25 <Serg_Penguin> so init term be4 DEFAULT and no workaroundz
00:31:26 <I440r> to restor the terminal on exit
00:31:37 <I440r> no 
00:31:41 <I440r> initterm IS in default
00:31:57 <I440r> but i cannot assume that your script wants the terminal in canonical mode
00:33:02 <I440r> if you run a script that wants keyboard interaction YOU have to decide if you want it to buffer strings or not
00:33:25 <Serg_Penguin> so is term stuff in kernel or in curses.f ?
00:33:41 <Serg_Penguin> if i wanna buffer i'll EXPECT, not KEY
00:33:41 <I440r> its in the kernel
00:33:44 <I440r> its in io.1
00:34:19 <I440r> thers still a few things that ive not resolved regarding shebangs :)
00:34:38 <I440r> like how to handle ./script.f parameter-for-the-script-go-here
00:35:01 <I440r> study default
00:35:06 <I440r> its a complex chain of events
00:35:13 <Serg_Penguin> :) will it be mod_forth for Apache ? :)
00:35:16 <Serg_Penguin> ok will look
00:35:26 <I440r> the first thing inserted into the chain is the code to init the terminal
00:35:44 <I440r> but when you compile args.f it inserts itself into the HEAD of the chain not the tail
00:35:57 <I440r> so it pre-empts the initterm and everything else
00:36:40 <Serg_Penguin> so can isForth work w/ graphics ?
00:36:49 <I440r> not yet :)
00:36:55 <I440r> it will
00:37:02 <Serg_Penguin> is it some way to call C libs ?
00:37:13 <I440r> that is not an easy thing to do
00:37:31 <I440r> it means doing alot of shit i dont understand about elf files :)
00:38:13 <I440r> but its something i have sort of planned
00:38:17 <I440r> right from the start
00:38:31 <I440r> but the forth kernel itself will NOT ever link any existing libs
00:38:50 <Serg_Penguin> what about direct VESA via ports/ mem ? ( will need root rights )
00:39:25 <Serg_Penguin> i dunno want it, i wanna something like SYSCALL, but CLIB :)
00:39:31 <I440r> frame buffer stuff is planned. dont know if root privs are required
00:39:34 <I440r> probably
00:39:49 <Serg_Penguin> like it's done in win32 forths
00:41:02 <Serg_Penguin> so what about modularizing NASM src and giving users a templates for creating their modules ?
00:41:25 <Serg_Penguin> if i'll do game, i'll write vector/matrix stuff this way
00:41:39 <Serg_Penguin> it will be creep slow in forth.....
00:41:44 <I440r> hehe
00:41:50 <I440r> it should be coded in assembler :P
00:43:51 <I440r> i gotta reboot xp
00:43:54 <I440r> brb
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00:47:20 <Serg_Penguin> re
00:47:36 <Serg_Penguin> why u'r XP falls ? my is damn stable
00:47:36 <I440r> :)
00:47:59 <I440r> i just installed it
00:48:11 <Serg_Penguin> all crashes from august were due to noname video overclock, not software bugs
00:48:12 <I440r> and i just installed drivers etc for my ati rage 128 pro
00:48:32 <Serg_Penguin> GeForce 2 Pro DDR 32
00:49:07 <Serg_Penguin> too weak - GTA3 badly skids at busy places
00:50:16 <Serg_Penguin> now i run it at default clock, but P4 1600 holds 2030 w/o up-volt
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01:03:14 <Serg_Penguin> z
01:03:21 <Serg_Penguin> z
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01:06:42 <I440r> wb :)
01:07:45 <Serg_Penguin> wb ?
01:08:39 <I440r> welcome back
01:09:05 <Serg_Penguin> i plan to write mix of RPG and puzzle 
01:09:38 <Serg_Penguin> chess-like
01:10:05 <I440r> :)
01:10:34 <Serg_Penguin> 'stats' will be castle-, bishop- and knight- moves range, damage and health, maybe - see, hear and smell abilities
01:11:11 <Serg_Penguin> see - direct, hear - behind obstacle, smell - some time ago
01:11:24 <I440r> like archon? :)
01:11:29 <I440r> but different ? :)
01:11:36 <Serg_Penguin> never seen archon
01:11:48 <Serg_Penguin> it will be strict, no dices
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01:25:47 <I440r> :)
01:29:30 <Serg_p> do u know any RPG dev chat ?
02:02:16 <Serg_p> z
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02:55:14 <Serg_Penguin> re
03:18:25 <Serg_Penguin> z
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12:06:44 <neobrat> 'lo all
12:07:03 <tathi> hi
12:09:24 <neobrat> anything exciting?
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15:38:30 <gilbrtbsd> hello
15:59:19 <I440r> hi
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17:05:44 <gilbrtbsd> hello guys
17:06:07 * gilbrtbsd is wondering if e.rather is the only female forther.
17:06:19 * gilbrtbsd 'hmmms' at that.
17:06:22 <gilbrtbsd> hello persons.
17:06:27 <I440r> no
17:06:35 <I440r> i know of at least one other
17:06:38 <I440r> she hangs out on dal.net #forth 
17:06:49 <I440r> well, ive not seen her in a while but thats her channel :)
17:07:27 <gilbrtbsd> ha.
17:07:36 <gilbrtbsd> I thought the other forth channels were dead!
17:07:57 <gilbrtbsd> btw have you seen menuetOS?
17:08:03 <I440r> it is :P
17:08:12 <gilbrtbsd> it is fasm's killer app .
17:08:53 <gilbrtbsd> menuetos.org
17:09:48 <XeF4> menuetos is no killer app
17:10:10 <gilbrtbsd> well... as far as obscure killer apps go, I am humbled.
17:10:20 <XeF4> nor even an app considering all the worthwhile things I can do with it
17:10:31 * XeF4 played with menuetos some months ago
17:10:51 <XeF4> it was buggy and not a single application existed for it, unless you count the buggy text editor
17:11:13 <gilbrtbsd> and tetris.
17:11:19 <gilbrtbsd> tetris works for it.
17:11:23 <gilbrtbsd> also pong.
17:11:36 <XeF4> hm yes
17:12:00 <gilbrtbsd> and it has a fractal app, a webbrowser, telnet,
17:12:19 <gilbrtbsd> ummmm a hexview and a drawing program.
17:12:19 <XeF4> how new is the webbrowser, havn't seen it
17:12:27 <XeF4> last I used their telnet, it was nonworking
17:12:50 <gilbrtbsd> I d/led menuet for the first time today.
17:13:07 <XeF4> have you actually used the telnet and webbrowser?
17:13:20 <gilbrtbsd> I dunno how new/old it is since unfortunately I could not connect
17:14:44 <XeF4> looking at the site
17:14:48 <XeF4> it looks like it may be working now
17:15:15 <gilbrtbsd> but the _very_ idea! its written in fasm!!!
17:17:26 <XeF4> mmhmm
17:18:06 <fridge> whoot
17:18:12 <gilbrtbsd> suddenly Dos 3.1 sounds like bloatware.
17:18:14 <fridge> I just got given starting forth
17:18:22 <fridge> by a guy I've never met before on irc
17:18:35 <gilbrtbsd> thats cool are you gonna scan it and make pdfs out of it?
17:18:43 <fridge> I was thinking I should
17:18:52 <fridge> incase it catches fire
17:18:53 <fridge> ;)
17:19:35 <gilbrtbsd> but it IS gonna catch fire.
17:19:36 <XeF4> gilbert: menuetos is wretched bloatware
17:19:40 <XeF4> look at the sources some time
17:19:47 <gilbrtbsd> Xef4 according to chuck moore?
17:19:54 <gilbrtbsd> why do you say it is bloatware?
17:21:09 <XeF4> gilbert: because the code is a lot bigger than it needs to be 
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17:21:21 <gilbrtbsd> at the risk of sounding trite: 'worse is better'.
17:21:24 <XeF4> because there is no apparent structure, so stuff gets crufted on every which place
17:22:16 <XeF4> gilbert: when I saw the sources, I was seriously shocked that a team could write something so helter skelter and have it work at all.
17:24:04 <gilbrtbsd> Xef4 once upon a time some serious mathematicians attempted to settle once and for all the question of the foundations of Mathematics. they wrote tomes and invoked thunder and swore upon their mother and zeus's grave that mathematics could have a solid
17:24:07 <gilbrtbsd> ffoundation
17:24:24 <gilbrtbsd> aalong came Godel and that was the end of that.
17:24:35 <gilbrtbsd> worse _is_ better even for mathematics.
17:25:12 <XeF4> gilbert: what are you trying to explain?
17:25:27 <gilbrtbsd> the fact that even though menuetos is not clean, it works ;)
17:25:37 <XeF4> barely
17:25:46 <gilbrtbsd> the whole point: I bet forth could do better than that.
17:25:49 <XeF4> it has graphical bugs and it crashes a lot
17:26:18 <gilbrtbsd> yes it does. it reminds me of an os called ummm, yeah dos and mac OS.
17:26:49 <XeF4> dos has very, very seldom crashed for me by itself
17:27:05 <XeF4> it has no protection and apps can take it down easily
17:27:48 <gilbrtbsd> dos is therefore no different from AIDS is it?
17:28:01 <gilbrtbsd> AIDS is not gonna kill ya, but watch that cold.
17:28:38 <gilbrtbsd> bootstrapping is the key.
17:28:39 <XeF4> more like an AIDS patient.  it's not gonna get killed in a sterile chamber, but watch anything that might possibly carry a cold
17:29:11 <XeF4> but DOS came out before x86 had MMUs
17:29:11 <gilbrtbsd> btw XeF4 have you as yet used colorforth ?
17:29:30 <gilbrtbsd> DOS is a bad excuse for anything IMHO
17:29:33 <XeF4> Moore's version?  I used it some months ago
17:29:36 <XeF4> (December?)
17:29:50 <gilbrtbsd> I am too daft to grok it :(
17:30:16 <gilbrtbsd> you might like this essay. http://www.dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html
17:31:16 <XeF4> already read it
17:31:27 <gilbrtbsd> ah so you know of the worseisbetter thingamabob?
17:31:37 <XeF4> of course
17:32:30 <gilbrtbsd> so could you write a clean version of menuetos in colorforth?
17:33:12 <XeF4> if it was clean, it wouldn't be menuetos anymore
17:33:19 <gilbrtbsd> but it would be!
17:33:37 <gilbrtbsd> eg stackless python and regular python.
17:33:53 <gilbrtbsd> stackless is based on a different sorta idea but it does _everything_ that regular python does.
17:34:11 <XeF4> if you mean same UI, yeah, I probably could
17:34:24 <gilbrtbsd> how long would it take you?
17:34:49 <XeF4> 2 weeks? 3? (assuming 40hr weeks)
17:34:56 <gilbrtbsd> do you have time?
17:35:40 <XeF4> no
17:35:47 <gilbrtbsd> what a shame.
17:36:02 <XeF4> unless someone wants to pay for 120hrs of my undivided attention
17:36:02 <gilbrtbsd> btw how is one supposed to think in colorforth terms?
17:36:25 <XeF4> supposed to think?
17:36:26 <gilbrtbsd> 120hrs == 30 minutes a day man :D
17:36:47 <gilbrtbsd> with a 5 day break somewhere in there.
17:37:01 <XeF4> doesn't work that way, I need time to settle down before I can really start working
17:37:11 <gilbrtbsd> :D
17:37:29 <gilbrtbsd> if you had halley berry doing something to you down there and a gun to your head.
17:37:37 <gilbrtbsd> I betcha you would have undivided attention :D
17:37:58 * gilbrtbsd just made an obscure swordfish point.
17:39:00 <gilbrtbsd> aka bad joke.
17:39:06 <gilbrtbsd> hehe. get it? bad joke?
17:42:30 <gilbrtbsd> when did you last try menuetOS?
17:43:07 <XeF4> sometime in June or July
17:43:18 <gilbrtbsd> ah okay.
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19:36:20 <blip> hoi
19:59:42 <ianni> ahep
20:00:00 <blip> hi ianni, you code forth?
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20:14:30 <blip> hi neobrat
20:14:32 <neobrat> anyone active?
20:14:35 <neobrat> hehe guess so :)
20:14:38 <neobrat> hola, blip
20:14:55 <blip> do you code forth?
20:15:06 <neobrat> yes I do :)
20:15:26 <neobrat> actually, I've recently finished a forth compiler
20:15:34 <blip> nice
20:15:35 <neobrat> been showing it off here once in a while
20:15:40 <blip> code any applications for it yet? :)
20:15:49 <neobrat> yeah, a little 3D engine
20:16:29 <blip> finally, quake in forth ;)
20:16:46 <neobrat> well, not quake, exactly :)
20:16:56 <neobrat> more just vector and matrix math
20:17:06 <neobrat> i got a spinning cube demo and thats about it
20:17:41 <neobrat> this is for the GameBoy Advance, BTW, not a desktop :)
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21:24:43 <ianni> i wrote windows95 in forth
21:24:52 <ianni> exact replica
21:25:03 <blip> eww
21:25:07 <ianni> hahha
21:25:09 <blip> who wants win 95? :P
21:25:21 <ianni> nobody i hope
21:28:06 <blip> i want an os utilizing the Humane Interface paradigm and an excellent networking api
21:29:04 <XeF4> blip, you shapeshifting dork
21:29:11 <XeF4> why don't you use a recognizable nick?
21:29:27 <blip> cause i'm pretending i'm new
21:29:31 <blip> it's fun
21:29:37 <blip> i'm on #osdev
21:30:38 <blip> what's up xef4
21:30:41 <blip> what are you up to
21:32:56 <XeF4> I am not up to a whole lot just now
21:34:04 <blip> cool
21:34:09 <blip> what are you down to ;P
21:34:59 <XeF4> not too much
21:35:20 <fridge> haha
21:38:39 <ianni> wwhaha
21:38:44 <ianni>  shapeshifting dork
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22:15:17 <Serg_Penguin> hi
22:15:59 <blip> yep
22:16:48 <Serg_Penguin> what'su'r forth experience ? ( my ~1 year, tiny utils, logic game(s))
22:17:30 <blip> my experience is reading a little ultratechnology alongside porno websites
22:18:34 <Serg_Penguin> porno suxx - it lacks romantic feelings :(
22:18:43 <blip> true true
22:18:48 <blip> and its very distracting
22:18:56 <blip> which makes it hard to learn forth!
22:19:18 <Serg_Penguin> i seen alot and now great pack of disks is absorbing dust :(
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22:20:38 <XeF4> formal apology time: s/thefox/chuck/
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22:20:45 <blip> lol
22:20:57 <Serg_Penguin> UT stuff rulez - i wrote sokoban game while learning Forth and rewrote it under impression of Chuck and Fox writings
22:21:39 <Serg_Penguin> i rewrote in one-line words, and in pursuse for simplicity i got rid even of X and Y var's
22:22:26 <Serg_Penguin> just D across 400 byte array :), up is -20 etc
22:22:43 <Serg_Penguin>  move create , does> @ m @ + m ! 
22:22:51 <Serg_Penguin> : move typo
22:23:07 <Serg_Penguin> -20 move up 20 move down ( etc ... )
22:23:34 <Serg_Penguin> m is man's pos in gamefield
22:23:36 <Serg_Penguin> kewl ?
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