00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.11.19 00:11:35 onetom: are Hungarian letters with ´ over them pronounced the same, bug longer? 00:11:40 or is there some other difference, too? 00:27:26 XeF4: yes 00:27:42 no more difference 00:28:41 tho we have horizontaly aligned double dots. well, they change more than length. 00:29:02 hmmm... i wasnt right :) 00:29:09 éáûõúöüóí 00:29:30 ..üöu..i 00:29:59 these r the longer versions 00:30:22 but é is not long e 00:30:31 and á is not long a 00:30:38 hm 00:31:11 they r formed w a wider mouth.. 00:31:12 * XeF4 should learn Hungarian sometime 00:31:33 but if u have enough bandwidth i can create u a sound file 00:31:49 but I don't have a soundcard right now 00:32:15 but I can listen to it later :) please create. 00:33:20 k 00:33:26 remind me later 01:29:09 --- join: lament (~lament@h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net) joined #forth 03:07:18 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 03:08:16 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Client Quit) 04:13:47 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 04:14:00 hi 04:22:52 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 06:05:06 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 06:07:23 --- join: tathi (~josh@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 06:15:58 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 06:24:56 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 06:43:45 --- quit: lament ("Client Exiting") 06:49:00 --- join: Robert (~Robert@robost86.tsps1.freenet6.net) joined #forth 08:14:24 --- join: ASau (~asau@158.250.48.197) joined #forth 08:14:33 Good evening! 08:15:00 my job is irritating. (This public service announcement brought to you by Patience LTD) 08:15:05 hi ASau :) 08:17:24 Does anyone know a good tcp/ip manual (to design an implementation)? 08:18:06 Except RFCs :) 08:19:34 tcp/ip illustrated? 08:19:41 or is that too high level 08:20:13 Never seen. What's that? 08:21:00 big book http://www.kclug.org/talks/tcpip/ there is an extract of the book on that page 08:21:00 Any opinions? 08:21:18 actually no, there isn't 08:21:22 its just title headings =( 08:21:47 http://lilo.gulalcarria.org/share/compartido/ebooks/Tcpip%20Illustrated%20VOL.1/ 08:21:52 that one has a bit more beef 08:22:43 ASau: browse the BSD implementation source? 08:23:09 what's wrong with the RFCs? 08:23:41 I want to look for alternative sources. :) 08:25:01 There possibly exist a better explained tcp/ip's. Why not? 08:25:25 I'm sure it's not complicated enough to warrant a book. 08:29:21 And what's with #forthos? 08:30:00 I don't see a usual 'motd' there! 08:30:58 Is it dead-not-revivable? 08:38:41 futhin got rid of it because everybody just talked here instead 08:43:49 I'll be back. 08:43:54 --- quit: ASau ("Toffee IRC client for DOS v1.0/b535") 09:34:53 --- join: I440r (~mark4@sdn-ap-033tnnashP0436.dialsprint.net) joined #forth 10:13:00 --- join: proteusguy (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 10:49:24 hi proteusguy 10:50:54 howdy. 10:52:00 isforth will have a decompiler on its next release :) 10:52:28 outstanding! I'm glad you're making good progress. 10:52:35 in fact thers alot its going to have thats new if i ever get round to finishing some of them :) 10:53:01 know how it is... 10:53:51 ./isforth is now 40938 bytes HUGE if you extend with everything available 10:54:03 not bad - nice going. 10:54:22 Yours talks to the file system via linux, right? 10:54:26 but then i realise that hugenes equates to 20496 bytes in a 16 bit system :) 10:54:34 yes 10:54:54 open close read write etc all done via syscalls 10:55:11 ha ha - well I'm willing to take the 32 bit penalty. 10:55:36 Do you know of one that talks directly to ATAPI and skips the OS? 10:56:20 im willing to take teh 32 bit penalty too :) 10:56:42 hmmm i dont know of one but im sure it can be done 10:57:11 I'm sure it can too - just would like someone else to have done it! ;-) 10:57:17 hehehe 10:57:31 chuck moore wrote an ide controller in forth i believe 10:58:00 there you go... do you know if he published it? IDE==ATAPI 10:58:13 www.colorforth.com 10:58:26 I'll look for it. thanx. 10:58:27 no wait... that's floppy drivers. 10:58:37 oh - that's no good. 10:59:08 he had an example ide driver up there. I'm not sure it made sense though 11:00:07 I think a forthOS project needs ATAPI and ethernet/TCP/IP then you'd have a good foundation and no interfering abstractions. 11:00:35 isnt forthos vaporware ? 11:01:18 seems to be - I'm not talking about a specific one. 11:02:04 aha ok 11:02:14 futhin wants to do one :) 11:03:38 I want one 11:04:15 :) 11:04:24 tathi and I are making a colorforth os for ppc. I'm sure the first thing we do after getting the disk and the editor to work is to get ethernet/tcp/ip 11:05:23 if we can do one that can compete with linux.... heh 11:05:23 Whats your method for access the disk? 11:05:56 we plan to write drivers to write directly to the blocks on the disk. 11:06:18 ATAPI drivers? 11:06:21 currently vaporware 11:06:32 currently it runs under linux, and doesn't use the disk. 11:08:42 I did implement a BLOCKS thing with syscalls, but I haven't used it 11:09:52 --- join: ASau (~asau@158.250.48.197) joined #forth 11:10:14 --- join: gNoam (xru52729fj@ip6-154.vancbc01g01.dialup.ca.telus.com) joined #forth 11:10:32 --- part: gNoam left #forth 11:11:55 * ASau sighs... 11:12:41 so you would have your own partition with blocks under syscalls? 11:14:42 hmm? oh, I just wrote a 1MB file for the blocks to go in while fpos is still running under linux. once it is booting we will iether just write blocks directly to the whole disk, or we'll have a partition on it and write to that. 11:15:27 a partition would be cool because then we could read the data from within linux easier 11:15:49 indeed 11:16:22 Herk: And why you don't want to write a partition under linux instead? 11:16:26 Debugging? 11:17:02 you have to be root, and I don't have my seccond HD installed 11:17:09 But you can use floppy for this. 11:17:17 I don't have a floppy drive 11:17:24 or I would be using it :) 11:18:06 can't you give a user ownership to a /dev/hd device? 11:18:26 proteusguy: oh, :) probably :) 11:19:26 I'm really not worried about the disk yet 11:19:30 Related question. 11:19:40 we need to make an editor and make this bloody thing interactive 11:19:54 Has anyone thought around smth. like full-text database 11:20:05 instead of filesystem 11:20:12 or over file system. 11:20:42 file system is a database 11:20:43 I'm thinking about it since Sept. 11:21:11 ASau - that's closer to my way of thinking as well.... 11:21:16 I'm not going to make a filesystem unless/untill I need one for something 11:21:18 I've got many small files, like notes... 11:21:28 asau! hi :) 11:21:32 Oh! BETTER!!! 11:21:42 That's FORTH! 11:21:58 You have many small words... 11:22:11 I440: Hi! 11:22:48 To work better with them, you should access them independently. 11:22:54 instead of getting a floppy drive I got a 1200MB HD for $20something 11:22:57 Not as part of source file 11:23:49 But you can have many variants of one word... 11:24:07 They can be distinguished by: 11:24:22 1) requirements; 11:24:31 2) purposes; 11:24:42 3) versions; 11:24:47 4) other. 11:24:48 Herkamire: thats cool that you are doing a PPC forthos... I'll have to start testing it out once you get it to a certain state, I'm using gforth on debian-ppc to learn the language at the moment 11:25:00 Words are different. 11:25:14 But they have the same name. 11:26:24 * ASau should make a site of his thoughts. 11:26:44 Well, I need: 11:27:02 fridge: don't hold your breath :) 11:27:25 1) a way to store such words/notes; 11:27:54 2) a way to distinguish Forth words with the same name; 11:28:08 ASau: did you see rfc1180? it's a tutorial on tcp/ip 11:28:13 3) a way to access quickly; 11:28:58 4) maybe, other. 11:29:31 Herk: I read RFC, about IP. 11:29:41 I can't recall its number. 11:30:08 ASau: what about tcp? 11:30:13 that comes first 11:30:27 I'll look in RFC1180 et al. one more time. 11:31:03 sorry, I have it backwards. tcp is on top of ip 11:31:36 As I remember, UDP is first ;) 11:31:57 udp should be much easier that tcp 11:32:24 As I remember, UDP is quite simple. 11:32:47 An RFC about UDP is just small. 11:32:52 should be :) 11:33:04 I can't compare it with IP's 11:33:11 ASau: if you find the rfc number for ip I'd like it 11:33:28 udp runs on ip 11:33:36 www.rfc-editor.org? 11:34:04 www.faqs.org, exactly, contains it. 11:34:48 Herk, no, ip and udp are quite different. 11:35:30 heh 11:35:56 (...just if I have no amnesia...) 11:35:59 OK. IP is the underlying protocol for _both_ TCP and UDP. 11:36:18 IP runs on top of whatever your physical network is 11:36:27 (...yeah, I've got it...) 11:36:29 UDP is just a tiny little add-on header to IP packets 11:36:53 TCP is a connection-based protocol that also runs on top of IP, and has nothing to do with UDP 11:36:56 :) 11:37:32 :( 11:37:44 right 11:43:12 BCE. BPEMEHu HET. 11:43:23 Time is out. I should go. 11:43:25 Bye! 11:43:28 --- quit: ASau () 12:08:16 --- quit: proteusguy ("Client Exiting") 12:42:58 --- join: jhoward (~jason@spiderman.spectsoft.com) joined #forth 12:43:33 hi jhoward 12:43:41 do you code forth ? 12:44:12 not actively much anymore. 12:44:21 chuck moore = charles moore? 12:44:33 yes 12:44:39 Hey all :) 12:44:55 looking to get back into forth coding ??? :) 12:45:19 hi rob 12:45:43 Always looking for a reason, was the language I grew up on. 12:46:03 :) 12:46:12 well what OS do you use ? 12:46:23 Linux 12:46:25 im developing an X86 based Linux forth 12:46:50 still alot to do with it, need an assembler extension and a meta compiler 12:46:58 and a debugger 12:47:04 i just wrote the decompiler 12:47:23 need to put that through its pases a little before i release it tho 12:47:34 For any particular reason? 12:47:50 because he can? =) 12:48:11 you mean any reason to do the compiler ? 12:48:22 yes 12:48:26 Yea. 12:48:35 so i can develop applications for linux and not even have to THINK about using c 12:50:02 i got almost all the functionality of both libc and libncurses in 36k (39 with the debugger added) and anything thats not there is VERY VERy easy to add 12:50:14 and my compiler compiles about a megabyte of source per second 12:51:10 Are you making libc/libcurses calls in forth? 12:51:28 no 12:51:30 absolutely NOT 12:51:36 everytyhing is done via syscalls 12:51:42 not one single external lib is referenced 12:52:51 Fun stuff, what sort of applications are you looking to write? 12:52:51 I440r: How do I jump to the beginning of the current word definition in IsForth? 12:53:10 i want to write an web browser 12:53:12 web server 12:53:20 irc server using routing instead of spanning tree networks 12:53:32 and one of the regulars in here wants to do a forth based MUD server 12:53:44 i already coded most of the sockets stuff 12:54:02 Only the hard part left :P 12:54:14 --- join: Forth (~Forth@sdn-ap-033tnnashP0436.dialsprint.net) joined #forth 12:54:32 ohh. The GUI TK ?? :) 12:54:36 thats my forth compiler using my sockets code to connect to this irc network 12:54:44 ill do an xlib interface eventually 12:54:53 and i want to work with frame bufferes too 12:54:59 do a full 3d graphics engine in forth 12:55:10 forth: 1 4 + . 12:55:15 this is all future stuff, i need to be able to metacompile first 12:55:23 and to do that i need to be able to assembled coded definitions 12:55:48 ill be working on the debugger soon 12:55:55 like i said, i got the decompiler coded 12:56:00 Forth: 1 9 + . 12:56:20 it doesnt do anything yet heh 12:56:27 :-P 12:56:47 it just sits there and replies to server pings so far heh 12:57:09 ooo ;) 12:57:30 ill fix that eventually 12:57:39 i want it to be a forth type infobot :) 12:57:47 I440r: you should make it run a forth system so we can crash it by accedent ;) 12:58:20 :) 12:58:22 it will 12:58:34 I am considering picking forth back up for an embedded project. Anyone have any insight on using forth on the PIC microcontroller? 12:58:38 all those other bots that allow you to do forth things in channel are all based on MY idea 12:58:51 i said i was going to make it possible for people to actually DEFINE things in channel 12:58:55 : blah ...... ; 12:59:02 : foo ... blah .... ; 12:59:02 foo 12:59:06 and it would do it all 12:59:09 thats planned 13:01:23 extra cool :) 13:01:48 I wanna do that too, except I haven't figured out what to do about infinite loops 13:01:49 not yet :) 13:01:54 but eventually heh 13:04:36 dont worry about them 13:05:54 jhoward do you code asm ? 13:07:35 Sure do. x86, 68k, PIC, 8051, ect 13:07:54 s/ect/etc/ 13:08:10 cool 13:08:20 check out my 8051 disassembler at isforth.clss.net :) 13:08:29 written for my forth compiler also found there 13:08:43 i need to write an x86 assembler for my forth 13:14:23 what assembly style do you prefer? AT&T or Intel? 13:14:58 intel 13:15:05 and i cant handle 5 # ax mov eaither 13:15:10 either 13:15:15 it has to be NORMAL looking 13:15:21 mov eax, [ebx+8*edx] 13:15:29 etc 13:15:44 i can handle having to inject spaces here or there but NO messing with normal syntax for assembler 13:16:01 --- quit: fridge ("http://lice.codehack.com") 13:16:42 ive got a skeleton assembler coded already 13:16:55 but it cant assemble anything real yet 13:18:00 I440r: I'm glad to hear you're finally writing your own assembler :) 13:18:58 Nice 8051 decompiler, reminds me of writing a monitor for the AIM 65 in Forth. 13:19:04 im not, its on permanant hold 13:19:17 thats going to be a complete 8051 simulator eventually 13:19:23 thats another thing htats planned 13:19:57 what do you mean "simulator"? 13:20:45 run 8051 code w/o an 8051 :) 13:20:49 able to single step through 8051 code 13:20:50 yes 13:20:59 run full speed 13:21:00 single step 13:21:12 basically a complete 8051 debugger with NO 8051 present :) 13:21:22 watch registers, break on register, etc. 13:23:05 yes 13:23:13 break on sfr 13:23:18 break on serial comms 13:23:26 inteligent (programmable) breakpoints 13:23:43 but thats also on hold, i have higher priorities right now 13:23:48 paid work would be good 13:24:10 I know the fealing. 13:29:22 so where are you located jhoward ? 13:29:45 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-QuebecCity-ppp82056.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 13:30:22 Hi woss. 13:30:42 hello bert 13:32:33 california, central valley. 13:32:39 How about you? 13:33:28 indiana 13:33:59 i would never LIVE on either coast, california is "the peoples republic of california" 13:34:09 NJ and NY are even worse 13:34:19 im from upstate ny, i emigrated to indiana :) 13:34:41 :) Not so bad. 13:34:58 but i would WORK anywhere in usa on a contract basis 13:35:08 jhoward try getting a CCW :P 13:35:37 counter clockwise? 13:35:57 no 13:36:02 a carry permit 13:36:07 to carry a gun concealed 13:36:29 as in. the second ammendment allows this and strictly FORBIDS the states from disallowing same 13:36:32 yet..... 13:36:42 its not impossible to get one in california 13:36:47 but its very difficult 13:36:56 Well, I can't say that I would need one. 13:36:57 chicago on the other hand and DC... impossible 13:37:07 funny how those to locations are the murder capitals of the world :) 13:37:23 every single law abiding citizen should be REQUIRED to carry imho 13:37:34 and that means everywhere 13:37:40 including on a plane 13:37:53 We do have some horrid gun legislation though. 13:37:56 but im a fenatic :) 13:37:58 heh 13:38:11 I440r: you're full of shit. the reason the constotution says we can have guns is for national defence. it's about having a gun at home. 13:38:11 guns dont kill people 13:38:12 well, a plane would be a bad idea imo. 13:38:14 gun laws kill people 13:38:24 herk BULLSHIT 13:38:33 nowadays citizens having guns doesn't help out national defence much 13:38:37 bullet holes in the airframe of a plane while at 50,000 ft does though :) 13:38:46 the prime reason for the second ammendment is so that the people can defend themselves against their own government 13:38:57 you need to read the federalist papers methinks 13:39:18 I440r: do you think having a gun is going to protect you from your government? 13:41:00 yes 13:41:04 definatly 13:41:07 and I don't think we have any major problems with people being assaulted by governments while they're on an airplane 13:41:08 Why would anyone need protection from the _government_??? 13:41:12 or they wouldnt be trying so fucking hard to take it away 13:41:43 * tathi agrees with I440r 13:41:58 jhoward do a search for "a nation of cowards" that will explain it ALL 13:42:43 jhoward no - frnagible ammunition does not penetrate the skin of an aircraft 13:42:49 just the skin of teh bad guy 13:43:06 they can regulate what sort of ammunition i can have but NOT weather i can carry a gun on board or ont 13:43:08 not 13:43:09 I don't think the general population is responsible enough to cary guns 13:43:19 next time i fly ill be armed with my kimber and frangible ammunition 13:43:23 othewise i drive 13:43:30 Herkamire again BULLSHIT 13:43:32 overseas? 13:43:37 they most definatly are 13:43:49 wossname i dont think im ever going back overseas again 13:43:58 maybe some day i MIGHT go back to england to visit family 13:43:59 heh, the drooling and dribbling populace. keep them safe, for their own good. 13:44:34 Herkamire you search on "a nation of cowards too", it will change your mind about the people be irresponsible 13:44:36 besides 13:44:55 if a government cant trust its populace how eht fuck can the populace trust its government 13:46:46 That's all fine, I still think its a bad idea to have guns on planes. I have sat next to plenty of people that, quite frankly, I am glad are _not_ armed :) 13:47:39 :) 13:50:28 I440r: when would a gun help you against the government? are you talking about a revolution? 13:50:55 Besides, when the government finaly does hook up all the handicaping devices life will be so much better... 13:51:18 jhoward: are you handicapped? 13:51:47 no, I was thinking in terms of the kurt vonnegut story... 13:52:03 Harrison Bergeron I think. 13:53:38 brb fone... 13:58:05 back 13:58:31 Herkamire im not iciting a revolution but if the general population is armed they cannot easilly be oppressed by their government 13:58:58 looka the most oppressive governments and you will see the first thing they always do is DISARM the populace 13:59:14 brb, i gotta walk my pesky doggie :P 14:03:02 Give the people TV, SUVs, and, of course, digital watches and they will give you their freedom?? 14:06:16 digital watches... coool ;) 14:06:45 I440r: I agree that people should be allowed to own guns 14:06:53 I'm not sure about walking the streets with them, 14:07:02 and I'm damn sure I don't want to be on an airplane that has a gun in it 14:08:25 not just _one_ gun, a whole plane full of people, each carrying his/her own personal firearm. 14:09:10 --- join: fridge (meldrum@zipperii.zip.com.au) joined #forth 14:09:51 But, yes, I would give up my freedom anyday for a fine digital watch. ;) 14:11:30 bah! I wouldn't give up _anything_ for a watch :P 14:12:41 sarchasim, not a very easy think to express on IRC. 14:13:36 somehow I didn't think you were completely serious ;) 14:15:18 back :) 14:15:39 Quick walk. Perhaps quick dog? 14:16:01 --- quit: Herkamire ("time for volleyball bye guys") 14:16:13 heh quick walk :) 14:16:19 --- quit: tathi ("ditto") 14:16:24 siberian huskyu :) 14:17:54 Well, I have to go walk a dog of my own. The dog being a truck and the walk being various, rather boring erands. AFK, BBL. 14:18:17 :) 14:18:38 --- quit: Forth ("abort" Reality Strikes Again"") 14:37:59 re. 14:39:18 wb :) 15:22:48 hi i440r 15:23:21 * OrngeTide munches on some In-and-Out burger 15:23:48 hi heh 15:23:52 whussup! 15:23:59 not much. working and eating 15:24:11 :) 15:24:26 in-and-out burger is a weird place 15:24:38 heh 15:25:30 all the packing has little religious things on them. 15:26:39 its a fast food /church all in one? 15:26:47 my cup has "PROVERBS 3:5" on it. my burger wrapper has "NAHUM 1:7" 15:26:50 I've never heard of in and out burger 15:26:58 they are in california only. 15:27:01 maybe its food related proverbs 15:27:03 they only have 5 things on the menu. 15:28:00 double-double, cheeseburger, burger, shake(3 flavors; one size), fries(one size only), soda(med or large) 15:28:10 i guess that's 6 things. 15:28:28 and every one of them i've been to has been like hospital clean. 15:28:48 and they won't put onions or salt on anything unless you ask. 15:29:06 the burgers are good though. 15:29:18 ick i dont like onions 15:29:20 the lettuce is *ice cold* on the burger. 15:29:31 i love onions. i go through about 4 or 5 onions a week. 15:29:44 bbl, watching a movie :) 15:30:03 in theory onions should reduce your risk to a heart attack, it thins your blood like asprin does. 15:30:12 garlic does so even more than onions. 15:30:28 then you get cut and bleed to death 15:30:34 sweet 15:30:55 that's what happens to dogs if they eat onions. it reacts really badly with them and they will bleed to death internally 15:31:42 in-and-out's fries are weird. i keep ordering them because .. i'm not sure why. but i do. i don't like their fries. 15:31:58 they taste like baked potato or those shoestring potatos. and they have no salt on them. 15:32:29 they are crunchy and chewy at the same time too 15:35:35 "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." -- Proverbs 3:5 "The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him." -- Nahum 1:7 15:35:43 so they aren't food related. unfortunetly. 15:36:00 oh. and everyone that works there is from the same church. 15:36:07 (i forget which) 15:37:51 HA! some bastard tried to schedule a meeting in Outlook at 9am. I told him hell no! 15:37:58 * OrngeTide goes to fix some bugs. l8r 15:58:08 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again!") 16:35:13 --- quit: Fractal (benford.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 16:35:13 --- quit: skylan (benford.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 16:40:15 --- join: skylan (sjh@207.164.213.52) joined #forth 16:47:18 --- join: Fractal (~doug@24.77.171.228) joined #forth 17:03:54 --- join: Extreme (~Administr@01-167.038.popsite.net) joined #forth 17:04:12 hello 17:04:31 what about here? 17:04:54 here, some crazy computer scientists discuss the programing language forth 17:05:20 thats great :/ 17:05:47 it's quite fun. and mad scientists are good company 17:10:59 --- part: Extreme left #forth 17:14:33