00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.11.17
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01:22:03 <snowrichard> hey night owls
01:22:24 <snowrichard> well its night here anyway ;) 
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08:32:39 <futhin> hello
08:32:44 <futhin> anybody alive in this chan?
08:42:28 <fridge> yes
08:45:17 <futhin> could you do me a favor?
08:45:44 <futhin> email fox@ultratechnology.com and ask Jeff Fox if any of the code on ultratechnology.com was coded by Chuck Moore
08:47:48 <Robert> Why?
08:48:52 <futhin> er
08:49:44 <futhin> cause i'm too lazy to search all of ultratechnology's mess and because jeff fox hasn't responded to my last two emails
08:50:27 <fridge> so you want to launch a co-ordinated spam attack against him?
08:50:33 <futhin> not at all
08:50:42 <futhin> only need one person to email him
08:51:34 <futhin> he might have my emails on ignore because my 2nd last email was a bit offensive i bet.. dunno
08:53:07 * Robert laughs.
08:54:02 <futhin> we were discussing forth & business
08:55:03 <Robert> And you sent an offensive email to him?
08:56:39 <futhin> well i said some stuff about how ridiculously easy it would be to sell forthchips and how disruptive technology doesn't have a market, DUH!
08:56:49 <futhin> :P
08:57:28 <futhin> disruptive technology don't have a market at first, the market is found thru marketing.  both the company and the customers FIND the market
08:58:13 <Robert> No.
08:58:18 <Robert> The Conspiracy creates the market.
08:58:42 <futhin> iTV was doing disruptive technology, but the problem was they were starting off wayyy too big..  they were thinking in orders of millions of units :/
08:59:31 <futhin> robert: i'd recommend a canadian economics text book, but i dunno if you can get it?
08:59:51 <Robert> No.
08:59:53 <Robert> NO.
09:00:10 <futhin> the author is gregory mankiw.. awesome text book, read it in a few sittings, read it like i read sci-fi books :D
09:00:35 <futhin> robert: NOOOOOOOOOO :P
09:00:36 <XeF4> back
09:01:01 <futhin> hi sexy
09:01:11 <XeF4> Herk: : > - 1 rol 1 and 1- ;
09:01:15 <futhin> have you used your manly muscles to save the world today xef4?
09:01:33 <futhin> rol?
09:01:43 <futhin> isforth doesn't have rol or roll
09:01:50 <XeF4> good for isforth
09:01:57 <XeF4> rotate left
09:02:01 <futhin> ah,  -rot
09:02:34 <Robert> Eh.
09:02:50 <Robert> Is it a stack or bit operation?
09:02:59 <XeF4> bit
09:03:04 <futhin> -rot / roll is a stack operation
09:03:10 <Robert> Like 2/ then?
09:03:17 <Robert> Erm
09:03:18 <Robert> 2*
09:03:34 <Robert> (With carry).
09:03:40 <futhin> no, if we are talking about -rot / roll
09:03:43 <futhin> > is >
09:03:54 <XeF4> Robert: like 2* with carry put into the low bit
09:04:00 <Robert> XeF4: Yeah.
09:04:47 <XeF4> but with an arbitrary number of bits
09:05:52 <futhin> golum loves segmentation cores
09:05:57 <futhin> yes my pretty
09:06:01 <futhin> my precious
09:06:06 <futhin> core!
09:06:12 <futhin> apple core!
09:06:14 <futhin> sing it like a russian!
09:06:24 <futhin> erm
09:06:29 <futhin> that's not supposed to mean anything
09:06:58 * futhin was thinking of a certain style of russian dancing, with the legs getting kicked out
09:07:17 <futhin> you know, the spam commercial with vikings?
09:07:25 <futhin> and they kept saying spam spam spam
09:08:27 <XeF4> I thought that was a Monty Python sketch
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09:10:18 <Robert> Hi tathi 
09:10:41 <tathi> hey Robert
09:13:01 <futhin> maybe, although i recall reading that the word "spam" was taken (for the new internet-age definition) from some commercial with vikings dancing and singing "spam spam spam" over and over again..
09:13:12 <futhin> maybe it was a monty python sketch and not a commercial?
09:14:07 <futhin> does anybody here want the ability to code forth linearly?
09:14:15 <futhin> i.e. having main at top instead of bottom ?
09:14:25 <futhin> (linearly is a bad word but ignore that)
09:14:38 <futhin> does anybody want the ability to code like..
09:14:55 <futhin> : dishwasher fill spin rotate empty ;
09:15:01 <futhin> : fill ifllupwithwater! ;
09:15:06 <futhin> : spin blahbla ;
09:15:06 <futhin> etc
09:15:07 <futhin> ?
09:15:09 <futhin> instead of 
09:15:13 <futhin> : fill blahblah ;
09:15:23 <futhin> : dishwasher fill spin rotate empty ;
09:15:26 <futhin> well?
09:18:04 <fridge> you hurt my brain
09:18:08 <fridge> stop it
09:18:35 <XeF4> you mean do I want forth to automatically stub unknown words?
09:18:40 <XeF4> with deferred words
09:19:28 <XeF4> it can be useful, then again it isn't hard to add to most forths when you need it
09:25:33 <futhin> you don't need to defer
09:25:40 <futhin> you can do a reverse interpret
09:25:45 <futhin> you scan for the last ;
09:25:47 <futhin> er
09:25:50 <futhin> you scan for all ;
09:25:52 <futhin> or something
09:26:00 <futhin> and then you execute everything after the 2nd last ;
09:26:05 <futhin> and then you go to the 3rd last ;
09:26:07 <XeF4> but what if my ; is a user-defined word that calls ;
09:26:08 <futhin> and 4th, etc
09:26:16 <XeF4> and what about create
09:26:34 <futhin> : someword blahblah ;
09:26:39 <futhin> create blah 213 allot
09:26:46 <futhin> : anotherword blahblah ;
09:26:53 <futhin> you execute from 2nd last ;
09:26:57 <futhin> and it executes create
09:27:01 <futhin> then anotherword
09:27:12 <futhin> (not execute anotherword but compiles it..)
09:27:41 <futhin> if ; is a user-defined word that calls ;  you could put that definition outside the reverse interpret
09:28:04 <futhin> : ; blahblah ;
09:28:07 <futhin> (reverseinterpret)
09:28:11 <futhin> : someword blahblah ;
09:28:15 <futhin> variable blah
09:28:22 <futhin> 25 blah !
09:28:26 <futhin> : anotherword blahblah ;
09:28:32 <futhin> : word3 blahblaah ;
09:29:23 <futhin> er, change : SOMEWORD ANOTHERWORD 34 WORD3 ;
09:30:47 <futhin> it's not hard to make it work
09:30:53 <futhin> and it doesn't need deferred words
09:30:56 <futhin> so is it a good idea or not?
09:31:12 <futhin> will it help make forth coders better coders?
09:31:17 <futhin> or is it a stupid little crutch?
09:32:04 <futhin> i guess i'll wait for a forth coder to come to #forth and ask the question again
09:32:52 <futhin> ;D
09:33:58 <XeF4> back
09:34:08 <XeF4> futhin: that's sort-of practical in colorforth
09:34:35 <XeF4> but in normal, plaintext, traditional forth not knowing what order the code executes in would be a huge handicap
09:35:22 <tathi> futhin: that woudl be evil :)
09:35:56 <futhin> the order would be more or less obvious
09:36:00 <XeF4> consider eg..
09:36:14 <futhin> because you would have the (reverseinterpret) word at the beginning of the code
09:36:17 <futhin> or something..
09:36:25 <XeF4> : foo blongo @ transformatate blongo ! ;
09:36:38 <XeF4> asdf jkl foo bar baz quux
09:36:43 <XeF4> create blongo , , ,
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09:36:51 <futhin> no
09:36:54 <futhin> you don't do it like that
09:37:00 <futhin> create blongo comes before foo
09:37:20 <futhin> it doesn't change the interpretation of the individual words
09:38:42 <XeF4> so it builds a dictionary of indices into the code, then first compiles something when a colon definition is executed?
09:39:58 <futhin> normal way:
09:40:00 <futhin> create blongo 12 allot 
09:40:00 <futhin> : foo 3 0 do blongo dup 4+ dup rot ! loop ;
09:40:00 <futhin> : main ." doing something" foo ;
09:40:25 <futhin> other way:
09:40:46 <futhin> reverse-interpret
09:40:46 <futhin> : main ." doing something" foo ;
09:40:46 <futhin> create blongo 12 allot 
09:40:46 <futhin> : foo 3 0 do blongo dup 4+ dup rot ! loop ;
09:40:46 <futhin> endreverse-interpret
09:41:24 <tathi> why would you want to do that?
09:41:28 <XeF4> does blongo get created before or after it is encountered in foo
09:41:31 <futhin> so you have main at top
09:41:33 <futhin> instead of bottom
09:41:38 <wossname> why are strings in forth like this: ." mehleggen?"
09:41:54 <futhin> wossname: that's output
09:41:58 <futhin> wossname:  printf
09:42:13 <wossname> ah, automagic
09:42:41 <futhin> xef4:  blongo gets created before foo. 
09:42:48 <tathi> futhin main should be at the bottom no matter what language you're programming in
09:42:57 <XeF4> futhin: according to what rules?
09:43:04 <futhin> tathi:  in C, main() is usually at the top
09:43:21 <tathi> not when I'm the one writing the code it isn't
09:43:31 <futhin> xef4:  all reverse-interpret does is looks for 2nd last ;  executes everything after second last ;
09:44:03 <tathi> but you can code however you want :)
09:44:29 <tathi> just don't ask me to read it
09:44:35 <futhin> xef4:  for example, if you execute the stuff after ;  at the end of the MAIN word, the interpreter sees:  create blongo 12 allot  : foo  3 0 do blongo dup 4+ rot ! loop ;
09:45:05 <XeF4> futhin: so it just textually scans through the source and blindly starts interpreting when it encounters the second-last ; ?
09:45:20 <futhin> well that's the idea, as long as you don't do anything fancy it'll work :P
09:45:28 <XeF4> that's worse than useless
09:45:50 <futhin> well there are many ways to solve the problem
09:46:19 <futhin> but as tathi has made me realize, there really isn't any point to having it top-down
09:47:58 <XeF4> yeah, you could write it top-down, then rearrange the source before running it :)
09:48:11 <XeF4> or use deferred words
09:51:55 <XeF4> or you could code Pascal
09:52:10 <wossname> TETSUOOOOO
09:52:21 <futhin> i put main at the bottom in pascal
09:53:07 <futhin> i met tetsuo once, what about him?
09:53:18 <wossname> is he a crazy suicidal bastard?
09:53:35 <futhin> he's the anime character in akira!
09:53:56 <wossname> 50 points for correct answer, 100 points demerit for incorrect reply :(
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10:21:18 <tathi> ooh
10:21:33 <tathi> futhin: Herk says you should change your editor instead, so when it opens up a file it goes to the bottom :)
10:22:05 <futhin> tathi: yeah, but that's colorforth :P
10:22:49 <tathi> oh, I thought you were just talking about forth in general
10:23:28 <futhin> i know i probably should be coding in colorforth instead of regular forth, but haven't made the move to colorforth yet
10:24:27 <tathi> hey, whatever language you feel motivated to write code in is good
10:25:10 <tathi> I'm currently in the middle of re-doing my colorforth engine so I can use it on regular text if I want.
10:25:24 <futhin> the editor or the actual forth?
10:26:09 <tathi> the actual forth
10:27:26 <futhin> if you do regular text, how are you gonna handle some of the weird behavior like multiple  ;
10:28:08 <tathi> I've never thought that was weird
10:28:22 <tathi> I always thought it was weird that ; and EXIT were separate words
10:28:23 <futhin> it's not
10:28:35 <futhin> it's not weird
10:28:43 <futhin> i was just saying weird like "unique"
10:28:44 <futhin> or whatever
10:28:47 <tathi> ah
10:28:50 <XeF4> futhin: that is easy, you just generate code to one arena and dictionary entries to another
10:29:01 <XeF4> or compile jumps to the next word and use a unified space
10:29:32 <XeF4> futhin: bigforth in compile state will happily compile native code to HERE
10:29:33 <tathi> oh. yeah, my forths usually have the heap for code & data, and a separate space for names
10:29:43 <XeF4> and inserting a ret there would be just like multiple ;s
10:30:51 <tathi> only thing I see that ; might do that would be a problem to do more than once is if it makes the word visible to searches
10:31:37 <futhin> : someword if ; blah then ;
10:33:32 <tathi> err... blah will never happen?
10:34:01 <futhin> are we not talking about colorforth?
10:34:11 <futhin> someword   if ; blah then ;
10:34:14 <futhin> well
10:34:19 <futhin> ignore the if and blah and then
10:34:29 <futhin> just notice the multiple ;  in a wrod
10:34:31 <futhin> word*
10:34:40 <tathi> : someword if exit blah then ;
10:34:43 <tathi> how's that any different?
10:35:14 <futhin> : someword if exit blah then exit 
10:35:16 <futhin> wee! ;P
10:35:33 <tathi> I've always just left out the word exit and used ; for everything
10:35:46 <futhin> yeah, in colorforth
10:36:33 <tathi> thing is, I've never really used anyone else's forth -- I just made things up as I went along
10:36:40 <tathi> so I don't know what's "normal"
10:36:50 <tathi> or what F83 does, or anything
10:39:20 <futhin> the only standard is chuck moore's forth
10:39:29 <futhin> f83? what's that?
10:39:32 <futhin> ans forth? what's that?
10:39:39 <futhin> colorforth?  that's chuck moore's
10:41:14 <tathi> so anyway, what makes you think multiple ;s is any harder to handle if your source is text instead of being pre-tokenized?
10:41:58 <tathi> and there is no standard, as far as I'm concerned
10:42:12 <tathi> I've experimented with some of Chuck's ideas
10:42:18 <futhin> excuse me, but i wasn't paying attention previously because i'm chatting with some other guy, sorry :P
10:42:48 <tathi> but I'm writing this langauge to fit my personal tastes
10:42:52 <tathi> ah, ok then :)
10:43:08 <XeF4> tathi: (offtopic) how did your first forth improvisations go?
10:43:27 <XeF4> tathi: mine were too heavily influenced by common lisp to be usefully light
10:43:30 <futhin> anybody here have entrepreneurial leanings?
10:44:13 <XeF4> futhin: maybe, but we're all broke so it doesn't matter in practice.
10:44:52 <tathi> XeF4: not badly actually
10:45:01 <tathi> I experimented with language design when I was about 15
10:45:21 <tathi> got the "no syntax" thing down, but it didn't occur to me to use a stack, so I couldn't figure out how to pass data around
10:45:35 <tathi> then a few years later Herk mentioned forth to me
10:45:56 <tathi> I found and read the draft ANS forth spec on forth.org
10:46:03 <tathi> threw out the parts I didn't like, and did an implementation
10:46:16 <tathi> I hadn't really done many languages at that point
10:46:30 <tathi> a little basic and several years of various assembly languages
10:46:34 <tathi> and a very little C
10:47:02 <tathi> so I guess I was looking for something very light
10:47:34 <tathi> I basically wanted a super macro facility for assembly language :)
10:48:04 <XeF4> *nod*
10:48:33 <XeF4> I wanted a super macro facility for assembly language but the first time I tried it, it ballooned into a weird clumsy lispoid with a stack and no parentheses
10:48:48 <XeF4> (so much for naive language design :)
10:49:04 <tathi> :)
10:59:18 <onetom> but we should better discuss these stuff here
11:00:29 <onetom> futhin: shouldnt we?
11:01:01 <futhin> i was only thinking on it lightly
11:01:04 <futhin> still brainstorming
11:05:20 <onetom> try 2 write simple code
11:05:30 <onetom> simulate things!
11:05:48 <onetom> like an osd display on a monitor
11:05:53 <futhin> osd?
11:05:59 <onetom> on screen display
11:06:27 <onetom> and simulate the brightness contrast buttons
11:06:38 <onetom> menu buttons ...
11:07:17 <onetom> and handle the asycnhronously changing screen resolution
11:08:23 <onetom> that is if the osd menu displays the resolution info
11:08:39 <onetom> it should b updated
11:09:20 <onetom> u can simulate the osd simply as:
11:09:47 <onetom> : osd page line1 type line2 type line3 type ;
11:09:59 <onetom> so u have a 3 line on screen display
11:10:41 <onetom> u have an array of buttons
11:10:54 <onetom> create buttons 10 allot
11:11:21 <onetom> 0 constant btBRup
11:11:26 <onetom> 1 constant btBRdn
11:12:08 <onetom> 2 constant btCONTRup
11:12:09 <onetom> ...
11:12:56 <onetom> : pushed? buttons + @ ;
11:13:43 <futhin> what are you talking about anyways?
11:13:49 <onetom> eg: btBRup pushed? if BR 1 +! then
11:13:54 <futhin> i'm talking about applications passing messages between each other in an os
11:14:05 <futhin> in a forth os
11:14:22 <onetom> an example u can work out as a programmin excercise
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11:14:42 <onetom> thats what I am also talkin about
11:15:16 <onetom> try 2 write an app similar 2 iwas talkin about then
11:15:44 <onetom> try 2 analyze what communication is required between its parts
11:16:31 <onetom> then u gonna c what type of communication is required between 4th "apps"..
11:17:03 <tathi> l
11:17:05 <tathi> oops
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15:02:49 <tathi> heh
15:03:04 <tathi> on a dvorak keyboard, GDB is one key to the right of FIX
15:03:14 <futhin> GDB? FIX?
15:03:25 <futhin> are those mac keys or something?
15:03:54 <tathi> no, I'm debugging
15:04:07 <tathi> tried to type "gdb" and got "fix" instead
15:04:26 <tathi> looked down and realized my hand was off by one place
15:04:40 <futhin> oh
15:04:58 <futhin> heh
15:05:58 <futhin> dvorak can read yo mind!
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15:07:51 <tathi> yeah, stared at the screen in shock for a second before I figured out what happened :)
15:08:51 <Robert> Hi wossname.
15:08:56 <wossname> hello robert
15:09:22 <wossname> i'm here for 10 minutes :)
15:09:44 <Robert> Hehe.
15:09:52 <Robert> I'll go to bed anyway.
15:10:01 <Robert> School tomorrow, and it's past midnight.
15:10:14 <wossname> :/
15:10:20 <wossname> good night, robert
15:10:47 <Robert> :)
15:10:47 <wossname> enjoy your school.
15:10:54 <Robert> I will..
15:11:31 <Robert> Tasty biology.. (No beer and too much biology makes Homer go crazy).. some math, and a little psychology.
15:11:45 <Robert> Long break, late start...
15:11:55 <Robert> Maybe I'll even survive.
15:11:57 <wossname> ah, lucky +)
15:12:29 <Robert> Yep.
15:12:30 <Robert> Hm.
15:12:47 <Robert> Nice, this spring, I will only have to go to school 3 days a week.
15:12:52 <wossname> it snowed all day.
15:12:57 <wossname> only 3 days per week?
15:13:09 <Robert> Our snow dissapeared a few days ago.
15:13:09 <Robert> Yes.
15:13:18 <Robert> But I'll probably go there every day, not to get lazy.
15:13:29 <wossname> ah, rob!
15:13:37 <wossname> if i were you, i'd slack as much as i could =)
15:13:46 <wossname> snowing is coding weather.
15:14:26 <Robert> Snow is beatiful. 3 degrees, fog and rain is coding weather.
15:14:40 <Robert> Just the weather alone makes you want to kill yourself.
15:14:51 <tathi> :)
15:15:01 <wossname> :(
15:16:27 <tathi> it's been kind of like that here too
15:16:39 <Robert> http://www.schizomaniac.net/ <-- picture of Smerdyakov. Scary.
15:16:49 <Robert> tathi: Where do you live?
15:16:59 <tathi> Connecticut, US
15:17:09 <tathi> not as cold here
15:18:22 <tathi> but the whole fog/rain/wind thing has been going on for the last 4-5 days
15:18:26 <Robert> Connecticut..I'll look that up on a map some day :)
15:19:01 <tathi> northeastern us
15:19:06 <tathi> well, not very north
15:19:11 <wossname> not cold :(
15:19:15 <wossname> no snow :(
15:19:27 <wossname> snow makes me feel warm inside.
15:20:02 <Robert> How cute.
15:20:04 <wossname> that's why when it snows, coding is the natural activity.
15:20:18 <Robert> What have you coded latley?
15:20:27 <wossname> a snow demo =)
15:20:37 <wossname> a test forth
15:20:44 <Robert> I think of an over-socializing, anime loving ex-geek when I see you nowadays :)
15:20:46 <Robert> Neat.
15:20:59 <Robert> So you've joined the rebel forces, eh?
15:21:01 <wossname> bah, unfair. i don't watch nearly as much anime as i did months ago
15:21:14 <wossname> yes, the rebel forces :)
15:21:21 <wossname> but forth is too messy as it is.
15:21:53 <Robert> Clean it up.
15:21:57 <Robert> What's so messy?
15:21:59 <wossname> i intend to
15:22:09 <wossname> it seems to have a lot of extra, cryptic ways of doing the same thing
15:22:27 <wossname> and some wierd low level control stuff
15:23:09 <Robert> Hm
15:23:11 <Robert> Such as?
15:23:42 <wossname> well... i like : word stuff ; to define a dictionary entry
15:24:04 <wossname> but there are other ways of modifying the dictionary, too.
15:24:14 <wossname> CREATE, etc. i don't like that,.
15:27:48 <tathi> you need either CREATE or VAR & CONST
15:27:52 <tathi> preferably both
15:28:22 <wossname> how about | var datalist ;?
15:28:55 <wossname> i like having a sort of uniform syntax
15:28:55 <tathi> that's how I use create
15:29:09 <wossname> ex?
15:29:16 <Robert> Hn.
15:29:46 <XeF4> woss: I dislike having superfluous words just to give a superficial impression of uniformity
15:29:47 <tathi> you know, do   create name 102 , 273 , ...
15:32:07 <wossname> i think i'd prefer | ;, or something like that. but yeah..
15:32:35 <wossname> the first test will be as normal as i can make it, but i'll take what i like the second time through
15:33:10 <Robert> : woss dup swap drop ;
15:33:22 <wossname> :D
15:34:24 <Robert> : drop dup drop drop ;   : dup 2dup nip ;
15:34:37 <Robert> Why make thing fast when you can make them slow?
15:35:17 <wossname> would : drop dup drop drop ; fsck itself up, or do you really need to use recurse?
15:36:18 <Robert> It doesn't recurse.
15:36:25 <Robert> It uses the old definition of drop :)
15:36:28 <tathi> depends on the forth
15:36:31 <Robert> Yes.
15:36:39 <Robert> But in my example it does.
15:36:41 <Robert> ;)
15:36:47 <tathi> :)
15:36:49 <Robert> : drop dup recurse ;
15:36:54 <Robert> THAT would fuck things up.
15:37:27 <wossname> nano4th shall be my reference
15:38:14 <wossname> *** error *** :(
15:40:16 <wossname> i can't define : drop dup drop drop ; in n4th ;D
15:40:30 <wossname> it does things as it runs.
15:42:55 <wossname> night, rob. gotta do homework, bleh
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22:18:54 <Serg_Penguin> hi
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22:39:41 <Serg_Penguin> z
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.11.17