00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.11.13 00:47:00 --- join: proteusguy (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 01:31:34 --- quit: pyromania (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 02:07:31 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 02:07:33 --- join: proteus_ (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 03:22:43 --- join: pyromania (~pyromania@dialup-196.158.220.203.acc01-high-pen.comindico.com.au) joined #forth 03:34:19 --- quit: proteus_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:34:38 --- join: proteus_ (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 03:42:23 --- quit: proteus_ (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:42:41 --- join: proteus_ (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 03:47:51 --- quit: proteus_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:48:12 --- join: proteus_ (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 04:06:46 --- quit: proteus_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 04:07:06 --- join: proteus_ (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 04:08:58 --- quit: pyromania (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:13:54 --- quit: proteus_ (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 04:14:15 --- join: proteus_ (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 05:08:19 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 05:37:48 --- quit: proteus_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:37:51 --- join: yeahright (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 05:43:02 --- join: pyromania (~pyromania@dialup-121.158.220.203.acc01-high-pen.comindico.com.au) joined #forth 06:07:48 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 06:38:47 --- join: tathi (~josh@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 07:13:00 --- quit: yeahright (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:13:01 --- join: proteus_ (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 07:24:53 --- quit: pyromania (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:30:23 --- quit: Herkamire ("brb") 07:38:48 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 07:44:29 --- quit: proteus_ (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:49:51 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:50:17 --- join: skylan (sjh@Rockcliffe80.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 08:16:03 --- join: I440r (~mark4@sdn-ap-006tnnashP0469.dialsprint.net) joined #forth 09:13:06 I440r: btw perhaps I should have clarified yesterday, full XTs are 16 bits, but compiled tokens are 8 bits 09:13:32 hmm 09:13:42 now you got me confused :) 09:14:20 about that forth with "8-bit execution tokens", full execution tokens are voc:op 09:15:29 but the default top few positions in the search order are an attribute of each vocabulary, so the vocabulary code can usually be omitted 09:17:55 sounds both weird and space efficient. that sort of thing would make a full 32 bit forth almost as space efficient as a 16 bit forht and STILL not lose any address space 09:18:32 about 1/3 the speed with token threading though 09:18:39 ya 09:18:52 compile time speed or execution time ? 09:18:58 execution time 09:19:49 well i have always been of teh opinion that a slight degredation in speed is acceptable when you get huge savings in space 09:20:27 the ammount of space a program takes up has a much greater effect on the cost of the machine that does the speed at which it runs 09:20:41 I am of the opinion that since I made this for doing 4KB demos with 3d engine and softsynth, the "slight" degradation in performance is a bit problematic 09:20:57 aha 09:20:59 heh 09:21:15 well when were talking DEMO coding we can throw space used right out the window heh 09:21:43 i didnt know you were a demo coder :) 09:22:12 assumed you did 09:22:30 I am, though I've not released anything for ages 09:22:40 me too :) 09:22:47 have you seen my crappy demos ? 09:22:50 no 09:23:12 heh - actually, most of my demos are complete reverse engineers of other peoples demos followed by a complete rewrite :) 09:23:31 where thats the case i usually give both the original executable and my version of it plus source 09:23:44 if you look in my ftp /pub thers a dir in there :) 09:25:24 will dow.com set fire to Windows if run in a dos box? 09:25:44 dow.com is my fave demo i did, its only loosly based on other peoples code, grab the .com and watch, then grab the source dow.a :) 09:25:56 it will run in a dos box 09:26:01 maximized 09:26:04 i run it all the time :) 09:27:01 runs 09:27:09 is that particle effect bumpmapped too 09:27:12 looks a bit like it 09:28:06 no, but the shading is funky :) 09:28:48 check out trsi next 09:28:58 thats a sinus scroller i reverse engineered 09:29:08 my .com is WAY smaller than the original .exe 09:29:35 oh. try single stepping through trsi.com :) 09:30:20 I don't see a trsi.com 09:30:21 erm i just tried to run trsi.com and it crapped out 09:30:21 just trsi 09:30:35 ah 09:30:37 nm :) 09:30:42 heh 09:30:50 i might have b0rked it 09:32:12 Ohjelma on suorittanut laittoman toiminnon, ja se lopetetaan. Lopeta kaikki ohjelmat ja käynnistä tietokone uudelleen. 09:32:23 windows quality again 09:33:40 i think my .com is broken heh 09:33:47 ill try fix it so you can view that demo 09:33:59 the exe works 09:34:08 yes. thats the original - unmodified 09:34:17 plas.com has a story behind it :) 09:34:17 but I have trouble believing T+RSI would release something so bad 09:34:29 yea heheh 09:35:08 the first day i went on irc i joined undernet #coders and sent a guy one of my programs 09:35:19 it was a vga mode 13 kaleidoscope program written in assembler 09:35:25 he said "cool - check this out" 09:35:33 and sent me a small plasma exe 09:35:55 i inspected the exe prior to executing and discovered it had a virus attached to it 09:36:20 i reverse engineered the virus and his plasma code. wrote a small program to stop the virus from loading and totally rewrite his code 09:36:47 i told him about the virus and he kick banned me from #coders for daring to say HE was spreading viruses heh 09:37:01 i messaged him. write a small .exe program with nothing but an exit 09:37:03 he did so. 09:37:07 he executed it 09:37:12 it was 4k in size after executing 09:37:16 he unbanned me heh 09:37:19 heheheheh 09:37:36 i sent him my little progie to stop the virus from actually installing and he gave me ops in #coders 09:37:38 on my second day 09:37:47 haha 09:37:52 plas.com is my version of his plasma 09:38:17 i added all sorts of switches to do funky stuff with the plasma too. some switches are secret (except you can discover them in the source :) 09:38:32 * XeF4 will look later 09:38:37 ya 09:38:47 I don't want to suorittaa another laiton toiminto in Win98 09:38:50 plas.com is REALY fast on my 900 mhz athlon :) 09:39:21 doesn't it wait for retrace? ==P 09:40:29 no heh 09:40:47 btw have you see www.scenemusic.net? 09:40:50 it works good on my dx-2/66 :) 09:40:52 heh 09:40:55 it's quite good except when some twit queues 2hrs of house crap 09:41:10 none of my demoze have any music :( 09:41:23 try plas/wr 09:41:25 w meaning wide 09:41:34 r meaning select random switch 09:41:41 --- join: pyromania (~pyromania@dialup-184.158.220.203.acc01-high-pen.comindico.com.au) joined #forth 09:41:42 i.e. see the secretes without knowing them :)P 09:42:20 plas/wp is one of my fave non secret switches :) 09:43:49 works 09:43:57 looks like an xor-generated prism map 09:44:13 i invented that shit myself heh 09:44:15 by accident 09:44:27 i was just messin with the values calculated and seeing what it did :) 09:45:25 one of the secrets makes the prism move at a specified rate :) 09:45:43 the guy i stole this off is called tom hammersley 09:45:57 --- join: fridge (meldrum@zipperii.zip.com.au) joined #forth 09:46:06 his water effect is now in the x screen saver :) 09:46:08 hi fridge 09:46:09 * XeF4 read most of his tuts in 97 09:46:18 yes. he is famous :) 09:46:19 hey 09:46:28 he does like 3 pages of maths every night FOR FUN!!!! 09:46:28 heh 09:46:34 not seen him on irc in years tho :( 09:46:45 you code forth fridge ?? :) 09:47:07 the refridgenator <-- heh 09:47:13 no, I'd like to learn though 09:47:17 good :) 09:47:21 another convert !! 09:47:27 1 down 928374659283746592734 to go 09:48:01 is there a good starting document you can suggest? 09:48:16 hmm well do you have a dos machine handy ? 09:48:34 or windows with a dos box 09:50:26 ? 09:51:02 only linux machines 09:51:06 ftp://ftp.forth.org/pub/Forth/Archive/tutorials/ 09:51:09 look in there 09:51:22 im working on some documentation for my forth compiler for linux 09:52:08 http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~mjadud/links/languages.html 09:52:19 check that link to and get fprimer.zip 09:52:49 thats a tutorial for FPC by tom zimmer which is dos based but alot of what it will show will still be useful 09:52:55 do you have any linux based forths ? 09:53:23 # ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Literature/rtfv5.pdf <-- this is VERY good 09:53:37 thanks for the links 09:53:41 :) 09:53:43 any time 09:53:47 will keep me busy 09:53:54 hang in here too 09:54:03 we occasionally actually chat FORTH in here heh 09:54:18 and get my compiler :P 09:54:19 hehe, like most channels 09:54:19 hehe 09:54:34 isforth.clss.net 09:54:41 mostly just generic IRC talk, occasionally on topic 09:55:01 some channels get anal about people drifting off topic, not here tho :) 09:55:59 so what clued you in to forth ? 09:56:15 its not a very well known language, i think it has been suppressed myself 09:56:48 ahh, I've known about it for a while... my girlfriends stepdad is an eye surgeon and he was telling me about his experiences with it at university 09:57:12 but there was an article on osnews.com today that sparked my interest enough to want to learn it 09:57:29 about colourforth 09:57:50 cool! 09:57:55 what did the article say ? 09:58:10 forth REALY makes languages like C look totally moronic 09:59:21 ColorForth is a redesign of this classic language for the 21st century. 09:59:36 not sure what that means just yet =P 09:59:50 ok well 10:00:44 compiled forth executes at close to assembler speed. optimizing native forths (compile forth to assembler) can compete with the best optimizing c compilers 10:00:59 im opposed to compiler optimizations myself tho 10:01:14 development in forth is orders of magnitude faster than almost any other language 10:01:33 compiled forth is more space efficient than assembler by about a factor of 2 for any non trivial application 10:01:48 Chuck Moore says if its not at least 100 times smaller than the equiv C then its not forth 10:02:02 forth is also extensible 10:02:22 meaning if its deficient in some way then YOU yourself can fix it 10:03:08 fridge: im talking w an mplayer developer about integrating 4th in2 mplayer 10:03:24 how. which forth 10:03:32 make mplayer itself a forth compiler ? 10:03:40 i dont understand what you mean there 10:03:53 fridge: ihope, u gonna see nice C vs 4th examples in it, next yr 10:04:20 I440r: well... its not easy 2 explain... 10:04:21 oh yea. 10:04:35 im gonna integrate any4th.. 10:04:38 a program can be expressed in forth far easier than it can be in c 10:04:51 the c source will be much larger than the equiv forth 10:04:57 but 1st TILE coz its compact, simple & still feature rich 10:05:03 or the c will be all crammed up into unreadable blobs of visually cluttered shit 10:05:12 while its written in C so its not a big deal 2 merge w mplayer 10:05:16 i.e. like in the linux kernel source code :) 10:06:15 :)) 10:07:35 : main init begin play-file more-file? until done ; 10:07:35 : play-file begin play-frame more-frame? until ; 10:07:35 : play-frame read-chunk decode show-frame play-audio show-osd 10:07:35 dynamic-quality wait-next-frame ; 10:07:50 10:07:53 instead of 10:07:54 10:07:56 void play(void) { 10:07:56 read-chunk(); decode(); show-frame(); play-audio(); show-osd(); 10:07:56 dynamic-quality(); wait-next-frame(); 10:08:10 } 10:08:33 10:09:26 I440r: i plan 2 replace the main program, the command line, the keyb config code, the codecs config file 2 b replaced w 4th programs 10:09:37 cool heh 10:09:37 lotsa code can b eliminated this was... 10:10:23 tho, im gonna have 2 fight w arpi - the main coder - 2 achive such radical changes 10:10:53 any1 interested in helping me 2 popularize 4th via mplayer this way? 10:11:06 :) 10:11:24 well im still not 100% sure what your plan is but when you get started ill help if ic an 10:11:34 k 10:11:38 but 10:11:45 have u ever tried mplayer? 10:12:13 u r not confortable w C 10:12:50 but u should read lotsa C code 2 make it a much better 4th equvivalent.. 10:12:55 i can read it if i gotta :P 10:13:26 the problem is that if you take C code and convert it to a forth program you end up with a forth program to a problem that was solved the C way 10:13:35 which isnt always the best :) 10:14:34 but still already 4th 10:14:47 & ready 2 b optimized by 4th programmers 10:15:06 so this should b the 1st step 10:15:06 ya 10:15:19 so, have u ever compiled mplayer? 10:15:24 the more you convert the c sources to forth the easier its going to be to rework that forth to be more forthlike 10:15:28 no 10:15:36 dont use mplayer 10:15:38 why? 10:15:49 is mplayer an mp3 player or an mpg player 10:15:49 onetom: I don't agree. the problem is the same, the approach is the same. 10:16:02 it plays avi,divx,mpg etc 10:16:04 lots of formats 10:16:09 onetom: if anything, it just makes an almost-good-enough version to sit around unoptimized forever (like C) 10:16:10 aha 10:16:16 i never used it 10:16:21 I440r: no. MPlayer is THE ultimate multimedia player all around the world. the number1 10:16:23 is it better than mtvp and xanim ? 10:17:06 XeF4: it will encourage factorization. 10:17:51 XeF4: if u have a look @ mplayer.c u gonna c its not a big deal 2 improve it via straight 4ward translations 2 4th 10:18:06 onetom: depends who is translating 10:19:16 XeF4: & the results gonna b inevitably magnitudes cleaner 10:20:02 onetom: you mean the C sources are so bad noone would even attempt a straight translation so they would refactor as they work? =) 10:21:17 exactly 10:21:23 just have a look @ mplayer.c 10:21:42 there r a pile of repetative parts in it 10:21:46 can GCC inline c functions ? 10:21:54 static inline dofoo(void) 10:21:55 { 10:21:56 ; 10:21:57 } 10:21:58 ? 10:22:34 the question is not that wheater is it able 2 do it but the question is: who cares.. ;p 10:22:52 haha 10:23:02 gcc can. 10:23:06 cvs -d:pserver:anonymous@mplayerhq.hu:/cvsroot/mplayer login 10:23:11 cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@mplayerhq.hu:/cvsroot/mplayer co main 10:23:36 oh, no, heres a more convenient solution: 10:23:41 onetom its a great way to refactor the c code 10:24:06 http://www.mplayerhq.hu/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/main/mplayer.c?rev=1.611&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup 10:24:10 where they nest braces to the Nth level you come along and extract one indentation and make it a seperate function static inline :) 10:24:19 --- quit: Robert ("brb") 10:24:22 refactor the C code and make it readable 10:24:31 aha 10:24:31 then you can convert it to forth a HELL of alot easier 10:24:35 thats right 10:24:50 if ( x < 100) 10:24:51 { 10:24:57 5000 lines of source code 10:24:58 } 10:25:07 you lose context on that IF statement 10:25:11 if ( x < 100) 10:25:11 yup 10:25:12 { 10:25:17 blah(); 10:25:18 } 10:25:22 much easier to read 10:25:30 it has happened 2 me last night exactly ;) 10:25:43 just spiced w some gotos 10:25:47 like: 10:25:54 play_next_file: 10:26:00 yuck! 10:26:05 --- join: Robert (~Robert@robost86.tsps1.freenet6.net) joined #forth 10:26:08 somecode 10:26:21 while (!eof) { 10:26:25 somecode2 10:26:31 main: 10:26:35 somecode3 10:27:12 ah 10:27:21 goto goto_next_file 10:27:26 } 10:27:30 somecode 10:27:34 } 10:27:45 goto_next_file: 10:28:06 and also code b4 the 1st somecode line also jumps 10:28:26 into the very middle main: label... 10:28:27 heh 10:28:29 yuck 10:28:33 who coded that :P 10:28:41 good guestion.. :/ 10:28:46 :( 10:28:52 a lot of ppl i think 10:28:53 * ianni soothes baby jesus 10:29:21 tho alex stated mplayer.c is under the control of the maincoder: mplayer-arpi 10:29:54 arpi is a strange guy... 10:31:16 what is a good cheap pci soundcard? 10:31:43 hrm 10:31:45 s3 are good 10:31:53 soundcard.. s3? 10:31:54 I thougt s3 was no longer 10:32:00 it is ? 10:32:05 now that i didnt know 10:32:08 since when ? 10:33:56 thought they were bought out last year.. looking 10:34:13 by Diamond it seems 10:39:35 get an sblive 10:39:41 pretty good for $40 anyway 10:39:44 or whutever 10:39:47 maybe cheaper onse.. 10:40:31 are they noisy? 10:41:59 not sure 10:42:18 but its cool cause you can get hacks under windows to use ASIO drivers (low latency) 10:42:37 low latency is very important 10:42:54 but I'll probably have to write drivers myself as I'm not using Windows 10:44:25 how low are you talking? 10:44:59 <2.5ms each way 10:45:13 I want to be able to write individual samples as they are ready if possible 10:46:00 hmm, I don't know many cheap cards that are designed for that sort of thing 10:46:11 the orginal soundblasters were 10:46:40 how low are the Windows ASIO hacks? 10:52:03 Amiga can do it, SB can do it 10:52:18 surely there is at least one cheap modern card that can do it 10:53:21 I think you can get 1.5ms latency using asio? I haven't really played with it that much, but the only cards I've seen with ASIO drivers were the more expensive variety 10:53:55 I guess I'll have to just figure something out :\ 10:54:21 (clocking the system timer at some multiple of the sample rate and hammering on the output position registers?) 10:54:34 how much are you willing to spend on a soundcard? 10:54:42 <$50 10:54:46 sblive isnt cheap? 10:55:02 sblive sounds rather dubious wrt latency 10:55:03 oh, you mean non-hack 10:55:11 It supposedly gets to 8ms 10:55:14 SUPPOSEDLY 10:55:19 ive gotten it way below 20 I think 10:55:22 with windows hacks 10:55:32 the asio driver hacks that is 10:55:57 that's enough that if I'm using the PC to process some waveform in realtime, you can hear the latency 10:56:29 toms hardware says they could get latency down to 4ms 10:56:33 with sblive 10:56:36 but for live performances, it should be ok if you just move the rest of the band a few metres back from the stage :) 10:56:55 http://www.tomshardware.com/video/01q3/010927/audigy-18.html 10:56:58 ahh audigy 10:57:03 dunno what the difference is though 10:57:34 12% CPU utilization on 1.2GHz machine 10:58:42 oh well 10:59:24 just a simple DAC+ADC where I could read/write samples would be plenty 11:00:50 audigy yeah 11:00:52 I was using APSLive though 11:00:54 win98 11:01:00 which was rumoured to 8m 11:01:00 s 11:01:34 * XeF4 looks for HW programming docs 11:01:51 since it is hard to know if that 8ms is hardware lameness or driver lameness or windows lameness or a combination of the three 11:06:53 fridge: do you work on mplayer? 11:07:04 then again, I guess there isn't much incentive to support simple, unbuffered sample IO on consumer cards 11:07:23 XeF4: what about video games? 11:07:29 yeh 11:07:49 Herk: as long as the latency is less then the frametime, it doesn't matter 11:08:24 and frametime is 10-16ms? 11:08:40 yes 11:08:50 is there any syntax highliter editor w multiple column support? 11:09:17 onetom: you mean two+ documents displayed side by side? 11:09:25 no 11:09:29 the same 1 11:09:35 vim 11:09:48 how? 11:09:52 :vsplit 11:10:05 Herk: and in video games, buffering is good to have since you're doing other tasks at the same time and disk io can stop sound generation for moments 11:10:17 how can i attach those windows? 11:10:30 onetom: what windows? 11:10:57 those two splitted areas 11:11:06 ithink u did get what i meant... 11:11:20 * XeF4 knows he is barking up the wrong tree and should just buy a general purpose DAC/ADC board , but those tend to be ultra-high quality and cost $$$$$$$$$$$ 11:11:22 imagine the two column mode of msword 11:11:33 onetom: I don't know. I'm not making sense of you 11:11:40 look: 11:11:50 line1 line4 11:12:05 line2 | line5 11:12:05 oh. gotcha. vim doesn't do that that I'm aware of 11:12:12 line3 | 11:12:26 ----------------- 11:12:29 thats sad :) 11:15:21 what kind of multi c olumn support? 11:15:23 for copying? 11:15:41 no. for reading c code :) 11:15:49 XeF4: ok. that makes sense. I've heard game programmers bitch about sound latency, but it's probably just that they are trying to find a happy medium between doing a long pre-buffer, and being able to add sound effects with no notice. 11:15:53 & modifing it of course 11:16:12 onetom i dont understand, you want to split a document in the middle? 11:16:16 why? :) 11:16:27 or two copies? 11:16:33 onetom: vim (and emacs) can have multiple views of the same file, and they scroll independantly 11:16:48 yup 11:16:56 thats the problem. the independacy 11:17:13 yah, just use emacs or vim 11:17:20 I prefer emacs, and to use horizontal splitting 11:18:00 I use horiz splitting too, but only because most C code is more than 55 chars wide 11:18:22 that doesnt matter 11:18:31 im just trying 2 reorganize mplayer.c 11:18:41 its not that wide 11:19:04 & anyway, i have 170 chrs wide console.. 11:19:13 aha 11:19:20 Herk: maybe Windows does something terrible to latency (default game platform), too, I haven't looked. 11:19:36 XeF4: probably :) 11:20:54 that'd be a shocker! 11:21:24 Herk: no I don't 11:25:41 I wonder if work would mind me printout out this 265 page real time forth document 11:25:42 ;) 11:25:57 ooookay, it seems emu10k is microcode programmable, so it is almost certainly theoretically possible, but exactly how is almost certainly a deep, dark secret 11:26:00 *sigh*. 11:33:19 wooot. i downloaded a new anime. can't wait to go home and watch it. :) 11:34:21 OrngeTide :) 11:36:34 6502 microcode is programmable too 11:36:58 and? 11:36:58 that rtf is awesome btw - rtfm that one :) 11:41:45 * OrngeTide hrms. 11:42:17 wheres bongo and mrreach :( 11:44:55 fridge: you don't what? 11:45:24 oh, work on mplayer 11:45:44 yeah, sorry about the delay 11:45:58 makes things rather confusing 11:52:53 * XeF4 understands now. 11:52:58 --- quit: Fractal (benford.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 11:53:13 E-MU makes professional boards with the same chipset, so I guess they want to differentiate their products with secret microcode 11:53:31 * XeF4 sets fire to the emu farm 11:53:54 heh 11:53:55 :( 11:58:21 --- join: Fractal (~doug@24.77.171.228) joined #forth 12:00:38 --- quit: XeF4 ("pois") 12:19:36 there. finished this stupid utility that i've been suffering without for all these years. a way to convert %XX html escapes into characters from the shell. 12:19:53 : DOUBLE dup + ; 12:20:07 what is the significance of ';' ? 12:20:18 : 2* dup + ; \ is how i usually see double done. 12:20:25 fridge, it ends the definition. 12:20:34 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-QuebecCity-ppp81993.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 12:20:35 ok 12:20:39 --- quit: Robert (Remote closed the connection) 12:20:46 : puts it into compile mode. ; takes it back out and stops putting stuff in the new dict entry. 12:21:16 --- join: Robert (~Robert@robost86.tsps1.freenet6.net) joined #forth 12:21:45 ok 12:22:48 wasn't sure if ; was an operation like . @ etc or just a syntax delimerterery thing 12:22:59 fridge, well it's a word. just like everything else. 12:23:12 but it doesn't do any runtime operations. it's an immediate. 12:23:43 fridge it is liek . and @, its a word taht actually does something - its also a special word, its called an immediate 12:24:00 even though your in compile mode when you get to it it doesnt get compiled, it executes 12:24:19 there are other immediate words (you can even make your own) 12:24:53 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 12:25:17 yes thats one thing I've learnt about forth already 12:25:20 you can make your own 12:25:27 pretty much anything it seems 12:25:28 ;) 12:25:47 correct :) 12:25:49 yes. you can make your own words to make records/structs :) 12:26:11 i was trying to explain that to me friend. he didn't like one of the ways i showed him to make records. so i showed him another way and he was all confused. :P 12:26:28 he was trying to argue with me how much better python is than forth. 12:26:32 * OrngeTide rolls his eyes. 12:26:53 --- join: skylan (sjh@207.164.213.52) joined #forth 12:27:03 lol 12:27:20 funny how people who dont know forht at all will argue that language X is better than forth :P 12:28:06 i tried to explain to him that you can do anything you want in forth. but he thought that ment that everything that was possible was somehow predefined in the langauge. 12:28:31 common lisp is like that too. you can extend the language from within the langauge. 12:28:45 although i think forth is easier. it's a little more incremental in extending it 12:28:52 chuck moore was a lisper to begin with i believe 12:28:54 aha 12:28:57 forth is simple to learn 12:29:06 just not as easy to use :) 12:29:18 (at first) 12:29:45 my friend recommended to me to write my own forth before i could really understand it. i think he was right. :P 12:30:10 yes 12:30:22 i understand it. i just don't program in it enough to remember all the things you can do with it. and i don't know a lot of the nifty tricks you can do with does and create and things like that. 12:30:24 i was USING forth for many years without fully understanding it 12:30:30 i.e i knew how to create a does> word 12:30:38 but i didnt understand how does> worked 12:31:07 i can implenet a compiler that has does> but i don't know what i can do with does> yet:) 12:31:20 i'm kinda backwards. ahah:) 12:31:25 : constant create , does> @ ; 12:31:35 right. 12:31:59 does> is used to create a whole new class of words. the part fater the does> is the bit that every single word created by the creating word executes 12:32:11 however. its not as efficient as ;uses 12:32:19 : constant create , ;uses doconstant ; 12:32:35 but then you have to write doconstant ... 12:32:51 yes. a seperate (probably coded but doesnt need to be) 12:33:03 hrm. 12:33:21 if your forth doesnt cache top of stack you could do 12:33:27 : constant create , ;uses @ ; 12:33:29 :) 12:33:43 and forget doconstant heh 12:33:49 ohhh. okay 12:34:33 do you understand how ? 12:34:41 i like cpus that have lots of registers and indirect registers. then you can keep your entire data stack in registers. :) 12:34:42 lets say you do 12:34:45 0 constant FOO 12:35:08 rather than keep it in ram and caching T and possibly S 12:35:16 i440r, hrm. okay. 12:35:27 when you execute FOO - foo will ;uses fetch. by the time we get to FETCH foo will have left the body address of itself on the stack 12:35:42 so fetch will fetch from the body of teh invoked constant 12:36:24 oh. i think i understand. 12:36:34 in isforth "create" creates a word whose CFA is a call to dovariable. dovariable exchanges the cached top of stack in ebx with the return address of the call 12:36:45 ;uses patches that call to dovariable to be a call to fetch instead :) 12:36:45 i'll have to play with ;uses and compare it to does> .. i'm not familiar with ;uses at all 12:37:03 usually ;uses compiles (;uses) 12:37:15 isforths ;uses is what other forths call (;uses) 12:37:24 i got rid of the "this word compiles that word" part 12:37:30 oh. 12:37:47 what do you think of TILE forth? 12:37:59 : constant create , ;uses @ ; wont work in isforth tho because of cached top of stack 12:38:08 hmm i think any forth coded in C is an absolute abomination 12:38:13 ANY AND ALL 12:38:13 hehehe. :) 12:38:20 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 12:38:27 * pyromania slaps I440r 12:38:28 Soap` !! 12:38:28 yah. but isforth doesn't run on my laptop :/ 12:38:29 Later mate 12:38:30 :) 12:38:33 :) 12:38:50 which is kinda making it difficult for me to use for writing my m68k assembler. 12:38:51 Mornin' 12:38:57 I440r: earlier you said you think forth has been suppressed, what makes you think that? 12:39:55 ok. well forth is so MUCH better at EVERYTHING than c is that if the industry didnt have its head so far up its ass its never going to pull it out it would be using forth for EVERYTHING 12:40:01 thers NOTHING forth isnt suited to 12:40:13 and development in forht is blazingly fast 12:40:28 ive seen projects done in C++ take 6 years. i could have done them in 6 weeks in forth 12:40:46 there was that interesting paper on why things that are technically superior like forth (and a few other things) don't get accepted by industry. it was the /topic here a few months ago. i wish ic ould find the link again. 12:40:59 probably one of those ultratechnology.com ones eh 12:41:04 thin would be able to tell you the url 12:41:42 C++ is gross. i hate C++. I ridicule anyone here at work who uses it. I can prove that C++ costs more than C. (cost being money or time, which is also measured in money). 12:41:58 well c is my absolute #1 hated language 12:42:13 C++ is just dumb 12:42:23 I440r: really? you hate it more than C? 12:42:26 er.. C++ 12:42:28 but we like forth and ObjC, of course it looks dumb. 12:42:38 c++ doesnt count. its a non entity 12:42:42 objC ! woot:) 12:43:22 i don't mind C. it's horrible and crappy. but it doesn't go out of my way to waste my time. it just lacks a lot of things and is more complex than it needs to be. 12:43:30 C++ goes out of it's way to make things difficult. i hate that. 12:43:34 windows also does that to me too. 12:43:58 when i get my business started we'll all have solaris and linux workstations. 12:44:09 theres just such a huge existing codebase for C that makes it pretty hard to ignore 12:44:29 the thing about C is that it's so tightly tied to Unix and vice-versa. 12:44:34 c++ is a non entity because for every c++ lamer there are 50 billion c lamers 12:44:46 if you do something in C it's almost guarenteed to be trivial to get to run under unix. 12:44:55 i'm a C lamer! 12:45:04 me 2 when im paid to be :) 12:45:16 they pay me a lot to code in C. :P 12:45:22 --- join: Kitanin (~Kitanin@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 12:46:04 wish someone would pay me to code :( 12:46:12 im supposed to have a fone interview today 12:46:17 * I440r goes to fone his recuritor 12:46:50 i'd help you out but all my business contacts are in california. :( 12:47:14 :) 12:47:18 i had 0 luck with recruiters. every job i've had i got through IRC. weird huh? 12:47:21 ill contract anywhere 12:47:36 i440r, i don't think you'd want to move to california. :P 12:47:47 not perm no 12:48:02 it's hard to get away from california once you start working here. 12:48:05 Move out in the nevadian desert :) 12:48:21 Robert, well i think he wants to live where he can get a job. :P 12:48:42 hehe 12:48:44 Hm. 12:48:47 I got this job through IRC 12:48:56 He can..er..pick up dead rats from roads. 12:49:01 And interesting stuff like that. 12:49:32 I440r, if you're available end of next year i might contract you for my business. :) 12:49:56 Robert: they pay you to pick up dead rats? damn and all this time i've been doing it for free like a sucker! 12:51:25 lol the way things are going right now ill be available from now till hell freezes over:P 12:51:36 i might change the software for my business to pure forth instead of half C / half forth. although i think the client software will still be c/forth combos. not certain yet. 12:51:57 :) 12:52:41 C forths are nice because you don't have to be platform depedent. but they are like 10x more work to write. and run a lot slower. and usually are missing things. 12:52:58 which is fine for my client. but my server should be fast and easy to write. 12:53:54 although i want evil things. like static type checking. 12:55:27 ugh :P 12:58:10 --- quit: Soap` ("rebootles") 13:01:49 god i wish spammers could speak english 13:01:59 "this email earns me a good job" <-- lol 13:02:12 ehhee. 13:02:29 i have so many sites in my /etc/postfix/access file listed as 'REJECT' .. my box gets hit HARD with spam. 13:02:31 I went to high school, it learns me a good grasp of the english 13:02:45 so hard that to keep my log files from growing wildly some of the worse spamming sites get blocked at my firewall 13:02:51 heh 13:03:03 fridge: that's how my coworkers talk:P 13:03:22 * OrngeTide just made some corn chowder. mmmm 13:03:25 but dont tell them he said so :) 13:03:56 they wouldn't understand anyways. 13:04:59 people who say "the english" make me laugh 13:05:08 ehhehe 13:05:27 the people i work with don't understand what a plural is. 13:06:03 Same here. Oh, for coworkers who grasp what plurals is. 13:06:09 --- join: Soap` (flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 13:06:36 * OrngeTide grins. 13:07:37 Actually, oh, for coworkers who grasp anything the first time. 13:09:21 * I440r goes to make coffee 13:09:33 * OrngeTide finishes his soup. 13:14:20 well i got a document due in a couple hours. i should start on it now. seeya. 13:16:35 l8er dood 13:22:10 --- quit: Kitanin () 13:45:01 --- quit: fridge ("http://lice.codehack.com") 13:49:06 I440r: if you didn't read spam, you wouldn't have to care whether spammers could write english. 13:49:12 (let alone speak it) ;) 13:49:22 i didnt read it, it was in the topic :P 13:49:24 bleh 13:57:06 --- join: thin (~thin@h68-146-166-145.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 13:57:43 thin! 13:57:44 hang on 13:58:03 Hey thin 13:58:06 nahhh :P 14:11:46 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 14:12:18 --- quit: Herkamire ("tasty!") 14:22:03 bottles! 14:23:00 Hm. 14:23:02 okay guys 14:23:07 What? 14:23:12 my business name is: 14:23:18 thin, hey. do you know the link to that paper on why forth isn't accepted in industry? (because it's too good of a solution) 14:23:19 Web Trance Business Solutions 14:23:25 what do you think ;)))) 14:23:34 it's only temporary, so if it sucks, that's okay ;) 14:23:37 hahahaha 14:23:47 thin: Sounds like someone who tries to steal your money. On the other hand, that's what they all do. 14:23:49 web trance... hmm 14:23:59 I wouldn't put the word Web or .com or .net in any business. 14:24:05 Web Trancing Business Solutions 14:24:19 no web? what about software? or something 14:24:19 er 14:24:28 Trance Business Systems 14:24:29 WebTrance 14:24:40 okay thanks, it sounds good after all 14:24:42 OrngeTide: truewthat 14:25:26 TranceSys :) 14:25:30 sounds so 80s :P 14:26:21 my coworkers can't program. they are whining because their programs get SIGPIPE. (i'm in charge to providing and maintaining the OS for people) 14:26:24 --- join: fridge (meldrum@zipperii.zip.com.au) joined #forth 14:27:07 they act like it's my fault their program exits. 14:27:14 Hehe. 14:27:15 orngetide: heh 14:27:19 How nice. 14:27:23 i'm like "don't write() or send() to a socket that is closed!" 14:27:32 :D 14:27:43 and they are all "this isn't good. all our exits! yikes!" 14:27:45 What kind of programs are they developing= 14:28:10 they are like the user interface. they are the only group that is allowed to use C++. 14:28:20 Hah. 14:28:23 (because they fucked up and hired a bunch of morons who can't program in anything else) 14:28:25 And the rest use..? 14:28:29 C 14:28:39 At least a bit better. 14:28:40 we only do C here. we look down and beat up anyone that uses C++ 14:28:44 :D 14:28:47 Good boy! 14:28:49 Oh.. wossname is here! 14:29:09 herro 14:29:17 Hrm. Toilet and brushing teeth, brb. 14:29:19 honestly i would rather this other group used Java than C++. if they have to do OOP, i can support Java more easily in this system than C++ 14:29:54 Hmm... 14:29:59 I've never used Java. 14:30:08 And I probably never will, unless I'm forced. 14:30:12 java has much simpler syntax. 14:30:20 than C++ at least. 14:30:23 Not hard, compared to C++ ;) 14:30:35 english has simplier and less ambigious syntax than c++ :P 14:30:55 --- join: gilbertbsd (~gilbertbs@67.97.122.14) joined #forth 14:31:01 I wish English was like Forth. Logical. 14:31:07 Lojban is like that. 14:31:11 hi Robert. 14:31:19 But Lojban isn't spoken by 3 billion people. 14:31:23 words in Lojban always take the same number of arguments in the same order. 14:31:36 Robert, well you could learn it and that would be a little closer. 14:31:40 I found the perfect Forth slogan on some wiki. 14:31:42 most people speak Mandarin or something anyways. 14:31:43 You. Forth. The machine. Simplicity. 14:31:44 "A little", yes. 14:31:52 OrngeTide: I mean, as a second language. 14:32:08 why would anyone wanna speak lojban or variations thereof? 14:32:10 OrngeTide: Very few speak Mandarin as their second language :) 14:32:34 English is the new latin. 14:33:15 i don't like lojban because of it's inability to express culture-free metaphors. 14:33:33 robert, ehheh. how about first or second? :P 14:33:34 orngetide do you speak lojban? 14:33:48 no. 14:33:56 i learned the structure but never did the vocabulary. 14:33:59 orngetide: i think that when the standard is unfrozen in 2004, they should think seriously about starting again from scratch, using what they learned 14:34:10 co'i 14:34:35 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0226468011/ref=cm_wl_ovu-pg.1-pos.8/002-5315396-3919234?v=glance&coliid=IYU5NJDCW0UV1 <-- Metaphors We Live By. 14:34:45 this book is what made me abandon learning Lojban suddenly. 14:35:28 isn't that by ummm some senator? 14:35:39 * gilbertbsd is too lazy to click on the link. 14:36:06 the other thing is that someone who is chinese is going to use lojban totally differently than someone who is french. it'll actually take a lot of effort for the listener to decode what the speaker means because each person is going to use their own culture bias to structure their statements. 14:36:22 gilbertbsd: no. it's by some linguists. 14:36:43 one of them still lives in berkeley, iirc. 14:36:45 yes he was also a senator. 14:36:54 the japanese man 14:37:00 or is it just his name? 14:37:16 I have seen that book before. Quite dense. 14:37:21 --- join: lament (~lament@h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net) joined #forth 14:37:26 How does forth compare with joy? 14:37:36 which one? Mark Johnson or George Lakoff .. i don't think either of them is japanese. 14:37:37 how does C compare with lisp? 14:37:46 oops. Wrong book. 14:37:53 for some reason I had the name 'nakamura' in mind. 14:38:23 Forth and joy seems to share a lot more similarities than C and lisp 14:39:08 no. they are both white guys... 14:39:48 Hmmm. 14:39:58 http://www.linguistics.berkeley.edu/lingdept/Current/people/facpages/lakoffg.html <-- he's at berkeley. 14:40:05 Joy looks Lispy to me. 14:40:33 well back to work. seeya. 14:41:56 Bye 14:42:11 joy is not really lispy 14:43:53 But then again, I don't know either of them. 14:44:18 Joy doesn't use named arguments 14:44:29 Which seems to be a lot like forth (? correct me if i'm wrong) 14:44:36 I don't know either, either 14:44:45 Yup. 14:45:02 forth is a weird beast that lures you into learning assembler. 14:45:06 Some people beleive you shouldn't even use stack comments ;) 14:45:13 Hah. 14:45:14 if joy is the same way, then you do have a very forthy system. 14:45:36 gilbertbsd: How's the coding going? 14:45:40 asm? 14:45:52 gilbertbsd: Joy is reasonably high-level. 14:45:55 I got a laptop for my tasm coding efforts too days ago. 14:46:25 lament I believe so. I also read that it was based on combinators and the writer of joy loves haskell b. Curry. 14:46:37 Yes. 14:47:01 I do not know anything about currying so I can't wrap my mind around forth. 14:47:07 and joy. 14:47:17 * gilbertbsd 's mind is unwrappeable. 14:47:19 Forth has currying? 14:47:23 no joy does. 14:47:27 it was a typo. 14:47:30 No, it doesn't 14:47:43 so what was that about combinators? 14:47:53 it does go on a bit about that IIRC. 14:48:06 hm 14:48:12 well, couldn't you say that forth has combinators? 14:48:43 This is stupid. When I search google for "forth" and "joy", I only find religious texts. 14:48:49 hahahaha 14:49:04 you should search using they joy author's name. 14:49:28 also groups.yahoo.com has a group devoted to joy and you can find a lot of forthy comments in there. 14:49:37 "Bringing forth the joy of art" 14:54:40 did you find anything? 14:55:08 try putting anyhting unambiguous in there? :) 14:55:20 such as... ANS :P 14:57:17 well 14:57:19 there's this paper 14:57:30 http://www.latrobe.edu.au/philosophy/phimvt/joy/forth-joy.html 14:57:39 introduction to joy for forth programmers 14:57:54 however it doesn't seem to actually say anything about the similarities 14:58:28 aha 14:58:29 The similarities and differences between Joy and Forth are striking and profound. They have been discussed in the mailing group which can be found at 14:58:30 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/concatenative 14:58:38 That's what you said. Oh well... 14:59:51 haha 15:00:47 look pretty similar to me! 15:12:33 these functional languages people can never get their syntax right 15:12:40 in joy, assignment is == and comparison is = 15:12:53 lol 15:13:00 Actually, that way kind of makes more sense 15:13:05 considering = means "equality" 15:13:06 ;0 15:13:16 well 15:13:29 technically the use of = for assignment makes no sense whatsoever 15:13:59 but still :) 15:14:31 forth DOESNT use it for assignment 15:14:40 but c's == is just fucked in the head 15:15:32 teehee 15:16:32 Well... 15:16:52 IsForth should use -> instead of !>, looks more like real notation. 15:16:55 3 -> x 15:16:59 x -> y 15:19:01 --- join: gilbert_bsd (~gilbert_b@67.97.122.14) joined #forth 15:19:13 I think that's how (that type of) Forth variables should look and behave... 15:19:18 Hey gilbertbsd :) 15:19:25 hi. 15:19:33 how was my shadow doing? 15:20:10 We shot it. 15:21:09 lament do you use joy? 15:21:24 hahaha. this is funny 'lament' joy. 15:22:46 heh. 15:22:54 No, I don't use joy. I don't use forth, either. 15:23:03 which would you like to use? 15:23:25 Visual BASIC, of course. Good night, all. 15:23:37 goodness Robert. 15:23:44 That is a bad baaad word. 15:23:54 No. 15:23:59 Night. 15:24:11 night 15:24:19 gilbert_bsd: you mean, which of the two? 15:24:25 indeed. 15:25:21 I don't know enough. Joy seems prettier, though. 15:25:40 ditch them both and learn asm. 15:25:46 And then implement a forth in asm. 15:25:54 There's no such thing as asm. 15:25:59 then you will (unofficially) be called a forthright. 15:26:05 assembler. 15:26:09 Assembly Language. 15:27:01 There's no such thing. It's a family. 15:27:10 name its members. 15:27:32 8086 assembly language, 80186 assembly language, 80286 assembly language, etc. 15:27:39 (1003221412 more lines,. 15:27:40 the last time I used nasm, all I told it to do was 'nasm someasmcode.asm' 15:27:48 you're awake, robert :( 15:27:56 oh is that what you are being picky about? 15:28:02 learn SIC asm then. 15:28:11 wossname: Kind of, yes. 15:28:14 sbnz a,b,c 15:28:17 But now I really have to go to bed. 15:28:18 Night 15:28:20 Natti :) 15:28:25 guld natti@!$ 15:28:28 +D 15:28:38 gut nacht. 15:28:39 X+D 15:28:47 bon nuit(sp?) 15:28:49 Gute Nacht, gilbert_bsd. 15:29:40 bonne nuit 15:31:00 --- quit: gilbertbsd (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:31:08 --- nick: gilbert_bsd -> gilbertbsd 15:32:31 gilbertbsd: why do you want a forth written in assembly? 15:32:58 its the only reason to play with forth (in my case). 15:33:10 --- join: Stepan (~stepan@pD9E530CC.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 15:33:13 hi 15:33:17 oy 15:33:18 * lament doesn't like asm 15:33:23 what do you like? 15:33:55 I don't like aggressively imperative languages in general. 15:33:56 assembler is like eating raw meat when you actually sit next to an oven 15:34:27 i like my steak rare 15:34:31 how should i program? 15:34:50 forth slogan: You. Forth. The machine. Simplicity. 15:35:16 gilbertbsd: that is true for all people from yoda's home planet 15:35:31 so what do you like lament? octal opcodes? 15:35:36 hmm too many choices =( 15:35:53 debian has gforth, pforth and yforth, which to use? 15:36:00 yourForth 15:36:30 gilbertbsd: My favourite language at the moment is Python. 15:36:40 hmmm thats where I have seen you. 15:36:44 I love python too. 15:36:53 Heck I am a BEEEG fan of pythons. 15:37:36 and I think it should squash perl asap. 15:39:02 lament look at this random quote from some person's website. 15:39:16 I discovered Forth and immediately wrote my own compiler/OS, learning assembler along the way. 15:39:56 "compiler/OS"? 15:40:05 a strange combination 15:40:21 if you talk to Chuck Moore sometime, he will tell you an operating system is redundant. 15:40:25 Forth is all you need. 15:40:28 OS is just an explanation, an appendix ;) 15:40:51 HAVING and OS is redundant 15:41:05 gilbertbsd: there's a lot of people talking a lot of bullshit 15:41:18 Including Chuck moore I suspect. 15:41:21 He said it, not I. 15:41:27 gilbertbsd: the trick is, if they only know a little more than oneself, they can tell you everything they want to ;) 15:41:39 :)) 15:41:48 but its not a trick 15:42:04 Besides I would never dare considering Chuck Moore's stuff bullshit, but that's different 15:42:08 I must honestly say that I cannot read colorforth code, and I don't know why the heck to even learn it. 15:42:13 everybody read my forth introduction at http://hermantom.homeip.net/~guest/forth/intro.txt and shut up 15:42:14 ;) 15:42:34 it's not finished tho 15:42:34 w more cooperation between hw designer system programmers & app programmers 15:42:38 i don't really like forth, but writing an os with/in it would not be `difficult' (well, the earliest stuff) 15:42:51 much more sw can b written 15:42:56 onetom: this compiler/os/whatever discussion is pretty uninteresting. a real programmer never needs a compiler or an os. just bare metal hardware 15:43:01 its a fact is suppose 15:43:15 wossname: neither would the "oldest" stuff be hard to write because the "oldest" stuff would be based on the earliest stuff 15:43:20 it's a very modular language 15:43:39 but the opposite motivations & business makes such cooperations impossible 15:43:43 yes, very modular. won't deny that. thinking in fourth hurts my head, that's all :) 15:44:00 fourth? geh 15:44:09 wossname: not if you follow chuck moore's guidelines for coding 15:44:25 thin do you uh colorForth? 15:44:26 wossname: i.e. don't pass more than 2 parameters to a word, keep a word 1 lines or 2 lines, etc 15:44:31 thin: btw, hello :) 15:44:32 thin: you should either put it into html or reformat it.. it's nasty to read in mozilla... 15:44:34 gilbertbsd: nope 15:44:36 onetom: heya :) 15:44:41 big, long lines.. 15:44:46 looooooooooooong lines in ie 15:44:56 I think its deliberate. He is trying to control us somehow. 15:45:00 thin: have i told u whats my latest prj? 15:45:05 stepan: it's a textfile, just open it up in a proper editor that word wraps 15:45:33 onetom: i don't believe so, tell me about it :) 15:45:51 bah. 80 characters forever 15:45:58 thin: 4th/mplayer (like gnu/linux ;) 15:46:04 what's mplayer? 15:46:16 >:D 15:46:22 thin: I know it can be worked around.. ;) 15:46:41 eeeh... THE -world famous- multimedia player, but nevemind ;p 15:46:49 I propose a project! 15:46:50 i'll format the textfile when i've finished it i think 15:46:54 thin: :)) u bastard 15:47:01 ahem. 15:47:04 I propose a project. 15:47:08 gilbertbsd: write up a paper on it and put it on my pile of hundreds of projects 15:47:16 hehehe. 15:47:19 url thin? 15:47:26 none 15:47:30 lots of them are secret ;P 15:47:40 nah 15:47:42 "Forth's potential arises when one uses the philosophy for coding, because Forth and the philosophy are so closely entwined." sounds really a lot like "we're not there to do actual work" ;) 15:47:48 lots of forth projects, etc 15:47:55 lament you there? 15:48:03 yuu hoo lamentationsss? 15:48:03 cool text though 15:48:18 stepan: hmm? bastard! the philosophy is ALL about results ;P 15:48:31 thin: yes yes ;) 15:48:45 thin: the point is, i agree with that. 15:49:35 Apart from the word Forth, I propose the word Forthwright. 15:49:36 --- quit: pyromania (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 15:49:47 forthcoming 15:49:56 Fifth 15:49:56 i feel an urge 2 ask time2time: doesnt any1 want 2 join me welding a 4th into mplayer? 15:50:04 stepan: any weak points in the introduction? i want to make it the bestest forth introduction in the world 15:50:05 welding? 15:50:31 its a great opportunity 2 start a nice career 4 4th 15:50:35 thin I believe the bestest forth introduction has gotta be an intro to becoming a forthwright. 15:50:42 how to write ones own forth!!! 15:50:52 onetom: why would it start a career for forth? 15:51:06 gilbertbsd: nailing, hammering or simply said hackin 15:51:06 hello? Forth Inside? 15:51:08 gilbertbsd: nope 15:51:34 why nope? 15:51:34 thin: coz mplayer is fuckin popular 15:51:42 an introduction to forth is limited to surface details, it does not go into depth on the internals of forth. that is what the tutorial, manual, and papers are for 15:51:48 onetom: so what? 15:52:01 but thin there are maaaaaaaaaany intros to forth already. 15:52:03 onetom: why would the forth component melded to mplayer be used ? 15:52:11 thin: i know most windows-tied bastards doesnt even heard about it YET... 15:52:13 you would help me with my agenda if you write that way ;) 15:52:28 gilbertbsd: no, there are FEW introductions to forth, and they all suck 15:52:35 introductions != tutorials 15:52:41 there are lots more tutorials for forth than introductions 15:52:45 how about 'forth an underview'? 15:52:45 thin: hm.. just wondering.. isn't forth, the tool and forth the programming language actually the same thing? 15:53:03 thin: instead they play w those miserable dead-born attempts available 4 windows... 15:53:22 stepan: yes, but the beginner doesn't need to become confused over such concepts :) 15:53:35 s/dead-born/still-born, afaik 15:53:45 thin: the 4th interface could replace the following things: 15:53:55 1, commandline (parser) 15:54:02 2, codecs.conf 15:54:04 onetom: why would the forth component melded to mplayer be used ? 15:54:05 onetom: why would the forth component melded to mplayer be used ? 15:54:10 hm 15:54:15 3, keybindings conf 15:54:27 onetom: why would it be popular? why would it be better? 15:54:27 4, gcc as a devel "platform" 15:55:13 onetom: no, it wouldnt b much better from the user point of view 15:55:24 talking to yourself eh? 15:55:24 onetom: to get rid of gcc as devel platform in this case is ridiculous.. in that case you should rather consider a rewrite in forth.. 15:55:28 onetom: except they can get updates faster 15:55:34 hey lament I wanted to show you something. 15:55:39 onetom: coz it could decrease development time 15:55:48 oops ;) 15:55:51 lament: http://hermantom.homeip.net/~guest/forth/kernel.py 15:55:54 i was talkin 2 meself 15:56:08 how about writing VMS in forth? 15:56:16 gilbertbsd: looks reasonable. 15:56:16 forth 'in the soul'. 15:56:22 I didn't write it though. 15:56:32 gilbertbsd: its an iron-wheel from wood.. 15:56:46 gilbertbsd: even though it's broken 15:56:56 lament had you seen it before? 15:56:59 no 15:56:59 Stepan: i didnt really get the point... 15:57:03 a wheel is a wheel. 15:57:04 gilbertbsd: it's still broken 15:57:09 yes indeed. 15:57:18 gilbertbsd: first, it looks like the function execute() is not yet written 15:57:28 onetom: maybe i did getyouwrong 15:57:36 Stepan: a 4th console could ease debugging, profiling, driver prototyping ... 15:57:40 gilbertbsd: second, elsewhere in the code it's written as 'excute', which means no one even attempted to run that code 15:57:47 I think onetom or a friend of onetom is writing that. 15:58:27 lament: onetom wrote it, it is only an example 15:58:47 lament: gilbertbsd: that kernel.py was just a stupid attempt from a friend of mine who was just learning python that time 15:58:52 oh 15:58:57 onetom: still.. why do you want to replace gcc? 15:59:21 Stepan: coz it doesnt allow interactive development 16:00:31 Stepan: i saw an mplayer compiling 4 ~1hr ... just because of some ridiculously small change... 16:00:52 mplayer compiles in less than 10min on my hammer 16:01:09 lament: i abandoned that prj 4 a while 16:01:36 Stepan: yup, coz u have a huge hammer, isuppose 16:01:45 C and it's dependancies are nasty. but thats common with software. clueless programmers not looking at how to implement that can fuck up forth code and C code equeallly 16:02:25 Stepan: but 4 a developer who d like 2 compile it after 5mins of editing 16:02:44 Stepan: the compile/edit/try ratio would b terrible... 16:03:54 Stepan: well if u allow a programmer 2 use words what help 2 obfuscate the program... 16:04:11 nasty 16:04:14 Stepan: words like required, what is an optional include 16:04:48 in C u dont have much choice while in 4th, u have 16:05:15 thin do you like the 'underview' forth article? 16:05:28 gilbertbsd: i like! 16:05:36 gilbertbsd: thats 1 of me favourites ;) 16:06:14 all: let me show u some code: 16:06:16 onetom: forth tries to behave as if there's no difference in prim language words and function/word sets i.e. libraries.. 16:06:24 this looks very odd to me 16:06:41 gilbertbsd: it's a decent article 16:06:58 could be better 16:07:01 { MP_CMD_CONTRAST, "contrast",1, { {MP_CMD_ARG_INT,{0}}, {MP_CMD_ARG_INT,{0}}, {-1,{0}} } }, 16:07:04 { MP_CMD_GAMMA, "gamma", 1, { {MP_CMD_ARG_INT,{0}}, {MP_CMD_ARG_INT,{0}}, {-1,{0}} } }, 16:07:07 { MP_CMD_BRIGHTNESS, "brightness",1, { {MP_CMD_ARG_INT,{0}}, {MP_CMD_ARG_INT,{0}}, {-1,{0}} } }, 16:07:10 { MP_CMD_HUE, "hue",1, { {MP_CMD_ARG_INT,{0}}, {MP_CMD_ARG_INT,{0}}, {-1,{0}} } }, 16:07:13 no, not that 1 16:07:24 static config_t mp_input_opts[] = { 16:07:25 { "input", &input_conf, CONF_TYPE_SUBCONFIG, 0, 0, 0, NULL}, 16:07:25 { "nojoystick", &use_joystick, CONF_TYPE_FLAG, CONF_GLOBAL, 1, 0, NULL }, 16:07:25 { "joystick", &use_joystick, CONF_TYPE_FLAG, CONF_GLOBAL, 0, 1, NULL }, 16:07:25 { "nolirc", &use_lirc, CONF_TYPE_FLAG, CONF_GLOBAL, 1, 0, NULL }, 16:07:27 { "lirc", &use_lirc, CONF_TYPE_FLAG, CONF_GLOBAL, 0, 1, NULL }, 16:07:29 { NULL, NULL, 0, 0, 0, 0, NULL} 16:07:33 flood 16:07:45 thin whadya think its missing then? 16:08:16 lets analyze the later a lil bit 16:08:42 it has a name field ("nojoystick") 16:09:02 it has a code field (CONF_TYPE_FLAG) 16:09:48 it has a data field (&use_joystick(handler routine address), CONF_GLOBAL(dunno), 0(min), 1(max)) 16:10:02 NFA, CFA, PFA .. 16:10:15 its a dictionary infact 16:10:29 just not as generalized as the 4th dict 16:11:15 & there r a lot of similar structures in mplayer 16:11:26 re 16:11:34 they have actually coded a lot of specialized 4th-es 16:11:46 i hate missing power supplies 16:12:19 i'm bored 16:12:26 :( 16:12:27 all the talk on this channel has been mostly boring 16:12:31 how come 16:12:32 grr :/ 16:12:42 noisy 16:12:45 and all over the place 16:12:48 and just random sayings 16:12:52 im just tryin 2 show u interesting things 16:13:03 * thin is talking about today's chatter only 16:13:47 the world domination of 4th is looming 2 me.. 16:13:49 onetom: what you say is fine, i'm not really talking about you 16:13:50 thin whadya wanna talk about? HOt latina chix on south beach? 16:13:57 thin: ah, thx 16:14:08 gilbertbsd: :) 16:14:47 thin: we always missed examples. now can easily create a pretty good 1 16:15:06 thin: & we can bash the C community w it 16:15:19 don't mention the C word pls 16:15:27 thin: coz it could b a working, popular example 16:15:42 onetom: i don't see how it'll affect anything 16:15:57 thin: and most users wont even really notice that they r using 4th 4 the 1st timr 16:15:58 time 16:16:03 look 16:16:14 mencoder -o x.avi -tv on:driver=v4l:width=480:height=360:input=1:norm=0:outfmt=i420 -vc rawi420 -oac pcm \ 16:16:18 -ovc lavc -lavcopts vcodec=mpeg4:vbitrate=1200:keyint=120:vhq -endpos 2000mb 16:16:26 how would u write it in 4th? 16:16:46 --- join: qazwsx ([Vk4CgnahN@200.193.25.131) joined #forth 16:16:46 ooor... isnt it 4th already?... ;) 16:17:23 : ­o name output cmove ; 16:17:36 vocabulary -tv 16:18:09 2 constant v4l 16:18:24 : driver drv ! ; 16:18:32 : width w ! ; 16:18:33 ... 16:18:49 so the command line would look sg like 16:19:08 command line parsing for forth-runaways 16:19:16 -o x.avi -tv v4l driver 480 width 360 height .... 16:19:35 so i would b a big differenc 2 enduser 16:19:36 s 16:20:06 onetom: you can do the same example with any turing complete language, more or less elegant 16:20:11 but the more talented 1s can realize that its not just a commandline 16:20:19 but a fullfledged lang 16:20:29 --- part: qazwsx left #forth 16:20:36 so they can implement tricky playlists 16:21:06 eliminating the need of the burnt in playlist handler of mplayer 16:21:25 just have a look @ mplayer.c 16:21:47 there r 3 labels what help implementing the playlist feature 16:21:48 --- join: tathi (~josh@ip68-9-58-207.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 16:21:54 & there r gotos 2 it 16:22:00 nah, got the point? 16:22:20 s/2 it/2 those labels/ 16:22:39 lotsa gotos... 16:23:22 --- join: qazwsx ([Vk4CgnahN@200.193.25.131) joined #forth 16:24:18 it's really easy to make finite state machines in forth, which is a nice bonus 16:24:36 Stepan: but it the more elegant case when u use 4th ;p 16:26:26 Stepan what does your word 'forthcoming' mean? 16:27:05 * onetom wonders how come no1 - even here on #forth - can understand the bearing of this mplayer-4th marrige... :/ 16:27:35 onetom I am with you. 16:27:45 forth should be allowed to go anywhere. 16:28:08 it must b an amazing idea if so much of u r ignorant or defensive ;) 16:28:21 hahahhaha 16:28:45 gilbertbsd: thx 4 the animating words ;) 16:29:48 i could have said "many" instead of "much" but the number of 4th users r non-countable, ibelieve ;) 16:31:46 aah, sleepy channel.. u make me sleepy 2 ;ppp 16:31:53 * onetom is back 2 hack mplayer 16:32:02 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:32:50 --- quit: Stepan (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 16:34:58 --- join: Soap` (flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 16:36:16 hey, how can i control the sensitivity of diff? 16:36:24 onetom: it does not seem like an amazing idea. you are excited about it, and that's good. but i think there are many more projects that would do much more for forth. 16:36:38 hmm 16:36:46 but whats wrong w mine? 16:37:04 ah, i havent told some other circumstances 16:37:42 mplayer gonna b included officially 2 the UHU Linux distrib 16:38:02 --- quit: Soap` (Client Quit) 16:38:11 thats a debian based distrib w handselected packages 16:38:37 especially 4 the taste of hungarians 16:38:56 this distrib is supported by the goverment 16:39:12 -n- 16:39:46 so if its gonna b accepted that linux will b taught in highschools 16:40:12 (instead or beside) windows 16:40:53 tonns of youngsters gonna meet this linux & the movieplayer in it 16:41:19 they gonna learn how 2 configure & script is, im damn sure of it 16:41:22 --- quit: wossname ("Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over IRC.") 16:41:27 coz they r like that 16:42:26 eg, some days b4 i met a girl (~25yrs old) on a kendo ... whatever ... 16:42:51 kendo? 16:43:01 at aikido? 16:43:07 her profession was whatever but absolutely not bound 2 informatics 16:43:20 huh? 16:43:56 my "boss" is doing kendo so i visited a ..whatever.. of him 16:44:22 practicing/excercising ... 16:44:44 --- join: Stepan (~stepan@pD9E530CC.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 16:44:46 so, that girl knew about dvd rips, subtitles 16:45:04 the existence of various subtitle formats 16:45:30 the available windows sub converter programs and so on 16:47:10 she has been promised that my boss gonna install a linux w mplayer 4 her 2 avoid further film watching problems.. 16:47:36 --- join: Soap` (flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 16:48:17 it mplayer would contain a 4th then a lot of ppl can meet 4th this way 16:49:47 so ithink, i can influence the next generation of younsters this way... 16:49:56 ihope @ least 16:50:28 1more idea: 16:50:35 mplayer has OSD support 16:51:04 so virtually u can use its movie display as a canvas 16:51:25 on which u can write 16:51:43 & u can put pictures on 16:52:08 hey I know what. 16:52:14 have you seen Squeak? 16:52:19 Sure you've seen squeak!! 16:52:25 so ican be what turtle graphics was earlier 16:52:37 sure i saw 16:52:56 but that seems more complicated 2 me 16:53:18 yes but in one small squeak package, you have a HUGE multimedia system. 16:53:18 not much, just a lil bit more 16:53:26 thats true 16:53:36 and the source code is completely available! 16:53:47 im also exploring squeak 16:54:07 u dont have 2 continue 16:54:17 * gilbertbsd rests his case. 16:54:26 & u know what? 16:54:54 i also introduced squeak 2 the half of the hungarian part of the mplayer team 16:55:16 while we were traveling 4 2.5hrs by train.. 16:55:31 they were amazed... 16:55:42 squeak is amazing. 16:55:45 i told them its a refelxive system 16:55:55 and just as tedious as forth is. 16:56:02 its object oriented but not like C++ ;) 16:56:04 it has a 'simple parser/interpreter'. 16:56:14 yup "simple" ;) 16:56:27 not as simple as 4ths 1 tho 16:56:36 do you know what the original motivation for smallltalk was? 16:56:49 mmm cant recall, tho i read it 16:56:54 Cells! 16:56:55 expressing thoughts 16:57:00 what? 16:57:04 living cells. 16:57:07 ah 16:57:20 smalltalk attempts to model the human cell. 16:57:22 hm.. not heard about it 16:57:26 c 16:57:30 so everything is a Cell/object... 16:57:54 communication is similar to that as well and behavior is similar. 16:58:04 alan kay's other major was microbiology! 16:58:23 theyve done a pretty good work implementing it 16:58:35 aha 16:58:56 that would b the other thing i would teach in highschools.. 16:59:20 but its more complicated 2 embedd a st 2 mplayer than embedding a 4th 16:59:46 & the 4th syntax is still more loose 16:59:55 (looser ;) 17:00:33 I would teach grammar first. 17:00:39 nah, enough of "empty" speach, lets rock&roll 17:00:48 lament: grammar? what grammar? 17:01:03 English gramar :) 17:01:07 grammar, too. 17:03:34 huh? r u ironic? 17:03:52 would u b so kind as 2 explain why? 17:05:55 Well, it does sound rather ironic when a person consistently spelling "be" as "be" intends to amend the high school curriculum. 17:06:11 onetom do you wanna teach highschool? 17:06:52 gilbertbsd: will c. some highschool classmates of mine r already teachers 17:07:17 gilbertbsd: i would prefer designing the methodology 17:09:18 lament: 1st, im not native. 2nd, its just an abbrev. 3rd, poteitau - potaitau ;p 17:10:08 --- part: qazwsx left #forth 17:10:18 but do you think forth can do better than squeak? 17:10:59 lament: natural languages r bullshit & fucked up in the head originally, just u dont notice this in your native lang.. 17:11:33 onetom: Natural languages are fucked up, but they're all we have. 17:11:42 lament: so i dont really feel guilty about fuckin up them more. was i decodable or not? so what then? ;) 17:13:07 onetom: Natural language can carry information by means other than simple meaning of the words. 17:13:20 onetom: For example, consistent misspelling is often interpreted as a way to say "I am stupid" 17:13:32 gilbertbsd: well. its a hard question. i dont know. but 4th is simpler, undoubtedly 17:13:36 No matter how convenient, or justifiable, it is. That's just how languages work. 17:14:38 lament: its not misspelled, just spelled alternatively. its spelled abbreviated... thats all 17:15:01 lament: so that 1 is the stupid who thinks im stupid ;p 17:15:27 heh 17:15:32 lament: no, thats how ppl would like 2 c the lang work.... 17:15:36 onetom: I understand (and agree to some extent) with the justification 17:15:48 lament: but it has an own, separate will 17:16:42 If I say all thing wrong, you still know my words. But I like fool sound. 17:18:03 lament: a girlfriend of mine is a linguist & she has shown me lotsa things, phenomenons, effects... 17:20:14 those learnt me that the so called observers paradox is present much more significantly than most ppl would think/notice 17:21:00 oops 17:21:15 present in natural lang related thoughs 17:21:21 How is that relevant? 17:22:33 relevant? well, i just wanna say it doesnt worth 2 argue about this topic here 17:23:08 i already ran through similar debates but i always "win" 17:23:16 coz im still here 17:23:23 still speak like that 17:23:30 heh 17:23:48 & im still accepted & understood by the ppl of #4th 17:24:00 yeah, several of us have argued with him about it... :) 17:24:27 I just ignore what I can't decode easily ;) 17:24:34 hehe 17:24:39 lament: btw, if u write a program - eg in 4th ;) - dont u use abbrevs? 17:24:56 onetom: Programming languages are very different from natural languages. 17:25:20 lament: i think if u r a programmer u should b familiar w txt made a bit cryptic this way... 17:25:30 lament: hey! not 4th! ;) 17:25:41 Yes, even forth :P 17:26:19 so onetom, did you get anyone to help with mplayer? 17:26:21 Natural languages are much more expressive. 17:26:36 beware! i have several linguist friends. they say it isnt that far from natural langs 17:26:38 --- quit: Stepan ("Client Exiting") 17:27:07 onetom: They're not programmers, are they? :) 17:27:14 heh 17:27:36 lament: they rnt but they still have managed 2 understand what 4th is.. 17:27:50 they r applied linguists actually.. 17:27:57 some of them.. 17:28:35 so i should admit, some of the some r also programmers.. 17:28:38 Anyway. Natural languages are much more expressive, because of the nature of things required to be expressed. All that is required of a programming language is to express an algorithm. Natural languages, besides simple verbal information, can convey emotions, shades of meaning, and often information that the speaker himself doesn't know he is revealing. 17:29:24 Which is why natural languages should be treated with more care :) 17:30:40 well.. i wouldnt _____ _them_ being expressive 17:30:58 they r under specified 17:31:03 Sorry, I can't decode that 17:31:11 rozoga szutykok.... 17:31:39 but lament... 17:31:56 human beings are the only animals which can talk themselves into trouble. 17:32:13 gilbertbsd: how is that relevant? 17:32:14 ______ = consider :) (short circuit) 17:32:29 natural language gives too much leeway 17:32:41 and to do anything useful, a vocabulary is quickly developed! 17:33:00 yes, but the point is, no programming language has that kind of leeway 17:33:10 which is why they're not _that_ close to natural languages 17:33:15 natural language gives too much leeway << exactly what i mean by "expressive" 17:33:15 no programming language _needs_ that kind of leeway. 17:33:24 COBOL wanted to offer that kinda leeway. 17:33:27 gilbertbsd: You're just repeating what I've said. 17:33:28 not the langs r expressive just the recievers algorithm makes them expressive... 17:33:35 No, COBOL didn't offer any kind of leeway. 17:33:40 ah lament dare i say we think alike? 17:34:00 lets all speak Bushman. 17:34:06 but its a debate debated already several times... 17:34:08 COBOL is not more expressive than any other language. Much less expressive in some ways. 17:34:11 I bet there is no word for 'coke bottle' in bushman 17:34:12 * onetom is back 2 mplayer 17:34:47 It's certainly a lot less expressive than forth :) 17:35:52 yeah, but try getting a computer to understand Bushman 17:36:05 how would you write that clicking sound? 17:36:10 if you could _maybe_. 17:37:08 also if you could teach computers 'context'. 17:37:24 onetom: Also I wonder why you used "I'm not native" as an argument. 17:37:32 I bet natural language processing would then be as simple as ummm 6 years spent learning one. 17:37:42 lament: neither i ;) 17:38:04 lament: probably because u were talking about misspelling or what... 17:38:20 if there was absolutely no ambiguity possible in natural language, would computers understand it? 17:38:59 all: ive reordered a 80k .c 17:39:17 from 80k to what? 79k? 17:39:29 or 79.5 :P 17:39:29 gilbertbsd: Yes, but such a language can't exist. 17:39:38 lament why can't such a language exist? 17:39:47 gilbertbsd: Because once you create it, it will develop 17:39:48 all: not much has changed just some n*100lines parts r moved around in the src 17:39:59 gilbertbsd: And become ambiguous in the process 17:40:06 all: diff cant find these modifications :( what can 1 do? 17:40:27 does it _need_ to become ambiguous? perhaps ambiguity itself follows a very logical pattern! 17:40:29 why can't diff deal with it? 17:40:31 gilbertbsd: basically, no matter how unambiguous a language is, you can still use it ambiguously and be understood 17:40:38 gilbertbsd: and people WILL do that. 17:41:03 gilbertbsd: because they need more expressiveness than a totally mechanical unambiguous language can provide 17:41:08 lament in the case of the English language, Natural Language processing is lost forever because of its multipronged roots. 17:41:53 gilbertbsd: 91811 -> 19621+72241 17:42:23 gilbertbsd: I know a language that has only 120 or so words, and very simple grammar. But it's already impossible for computers to process without AI. 17:42:25 gilbertbsd: so a 19k part is extracted 2 a separate file 17:42:37 ah okay. 17:42:41 lament what language is that? 17:42:50 It's called "toki pona" 17:42:56 It's a constructed language 17:42:56 tathi: well? any idea? 17:42:57 from where? hawaii? 17:43:03 ah okay. 17:43:13 ht2:~/x/MPlayer-0.90pre10# diff -ub --horizon-lines=1000 mplayer.c mp.c > mplayer.c.diff 17:43:34 thats all ive managed 2 conduct from dox 17:43:42 lament there are 120 words right? 17:44:33 119 at the moment 17:44:33 I think the thing to notice is the factorial. 17:44:40 119! is freaking huge. 17:44:58 with english, 50,000! is FREAKING HUGE. 17:45:17 It's more like 400000 actually. 17:45:20 onetom: no ideas, I'm afraid... 17:45:22 and there are too many 'other' cases in english. 17:45:40 tathi: brüüühühühüüüühüüüü ;( 17:46:18 so if the language had a really small vocabulary, not counting the words but in terms of the factorial of the total number of words... you will then find simplicity. 17:46:35 tathi: i cant post it in form of a patch than... mplayer árpi wont b happy :) 17:47:00 gilbertbsd: what does the factorial have to do with it? 17:47:14 in calculating the permutations/combinations of possible sentences. 17:47:18 gilbertbsd: in any case, "simplicity" != "lack of ambiguity" 17:47:24 possible Correct well formed sentences. 17:47:40 The number of correct sentences is much less than that :) 17:47:42 onetom: :( 17:47:48 indeed they are. 17:48:15 In any case, it's only factorial if you use a strange assumption that no word can be repeated 17:48:16 but the number a computer might search through to correctly interpret 'get water' might be just as big. 17:48:38 get water being a bad example as required ofcourse. 17:49:08 if computers could be taught context ... there really wouldn't be a big problem anymore. 17:49:43 but why teach a computer to speak and understand language when lawyers have trouble understanding other human lawyers? 17:50:09 heck when mere mortals cannot read more than 3 words of the fine print on an insurance policy! 17:52:20 grrr. class time. 17:52:25 I gotta rin. 17:52:29 bye 17:52:33 ciao 17:52:35 --- quit: gilbertbsd (Remote closed the connection) 17:53:04 onetom: have you tried -d or --minimal? 17:53:19 fu.k 17:53:28 i tried B instead of D :)) 17:53:35 thx, gonna chk 17:53:42 * onetom crosses his fingers 17:54:19 hehe 17:54:21 thats it 17:54:35 more eyes can see more things ;) 17:54:46 that worked? 17:55:14 aha 17:56:09 though the diff looks pretty stupid 17:57:19 1700 lines prefixed w a + 17:57:34 then the same 1700 lines prefixed w a - 17:57:35 :) 17:58:07 hmm... 17:58:40 the diff itself is roughly as large as the orig file :) 17:58:45 79209 17:58:57 --- quit: lament (Remote closed the connection) 18:00:59 the diff format needs a way to say that the lines just moved :) 18:02:02 but i havent heard of such a format yet... 18:02:07 stfg 18:02:16 (search the fuckin googl ;) 18:02:34 diff "moved lines" 18:02:47 heh, maybe -e (Make output that is a valid ed script) 18:03:04 wow... watta bright idea... 18:03:18 I _think_ ed has a "move" command... 18:03:35 -rw-r--r-- 1 root gyurix 46680 nov 14 03:05 mplayer.c.diff 18:03:42 hmm, yummm :* 18:04:06 tho, mplayer arpi still gonna b nervous 18:04:13 :) 18:04:27 but 4 now because of the diff file 4mat >;) 18:08:22 google told me: hdiffHeckel diff(1) [CACM '78], but shows moved lines with m 18:26:45 --- quit: ianni (benford.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 18:27:10 --- join: ianni (ian@inpuj.net) joined #forth 20:31:11 --- quit: fridge ("Confucius say: Shit happens.") 20:42:19 --- join: lament (~lament@h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net) joined #forth 20:45:01 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 21:08:07 --- quit: lament (Remote closed the connection) 21:09:24 --- join: lament (~lament@h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net) joined #forth 21:49:32 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again!") 22:54:24 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 23:02:52 --- join: pyromania (~pyromania@dialup-153.158.220.203.acc01-high-pen.comindico.com.au) joined #forth 23:09:55 hi 23:47:21 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Killed (NickServ (Nickname Enforcement))) 23:47:23 --- join: Serg_p (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 23:47:32 re hi 23:59:28 --- nick: Serg_p -> Serg_penguin 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.11.13