00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.11.08
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05:58:33 <XeF4> Forth is a bot?
05:58:42 <Robert> I guess he is.
05:59:37 <I440r> yes :P
05:59:39 <I440r> written in forth
06:00:01 <I440r> soon as ive got the dns queries finished in my sockets code ill release it all
06:00:16 <XeF4> what can he do?
06:00:24 <I440r> right now tho im semi working on some minimal documentation :)
06:00:28 <I440r> the bot?
06:00:30 <XeF4> the bot
06:00:32 <I440r> he can connect
06:00:35 <I440r> he can reply to server pings
06:00:39 <I440r> he can disconnect :)
06:00:42 <I440r> thats it
06:00:42 <I440r> heh
06:00:42 <XeF4> excellent
06:00:48 <I440r> ive not finished it :)
06:01:00 <XeF4> sounds like a real #forther
06:01:07 <I440r> lol
06:01:15 <Robert> :)
06:01:22 <I440r> err we have our moments :P
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08:34:47 --- quit: Forth ("abort" Reality Strikes Again"")
09:09:12 * onetom is away 4 the sake of a linux conference. bb on sunday afternoon or on monday morning
09:11:22 <Robert> OK, bye!
10:56:15 <ianni> bye
10:57:26 <Robert> Only 2 hours late, ianni :)
10:58:28 <onetom> ianni: any idea about the elevator problem?
10:58:49 <onetom> have u managed 2 construct a subproblem of it?
10:59:05 <Robert> He.
10:59:10 <Robert> You're not away!
10:59:11 <Robert> :)
10:59:17 <onetom> oops...
10:59:20 <onetom> thats right
10:59:25 <onetom> shut up 1tom! :)
10:59:42 <Robert> :P
10:59:45 <onetom> actually the conference starts on next day
10:59:48 <ianni> onetom no
11:00:04 <ianni> onetom i dont know how complicated i should make it
11:00:33 <ianni> or how to simulate users getting them at different times for ex.
11:00:40 <ianni> perhaps I could use a random number & a pause
11:00:42 <onetom> i can meet some guys from the mplayer team
11:00:46 <onetom> on the train
11:00:59 <onetom> so i defered the departure 2 2morrow
11:01:34 <onetom> ianni: 1st of all, try 2 specify the input & output data
11:03:39 <onetom> the input should b sy like: time, keypress on what floor
11:03:57 <onetom> the output: the current state of the elevator
11:05:16 <onetom> time, floor
11:06:08 <onetom> & perhaps the number (or the list of person ids) currently standing in the lift
11:08:38 <ianni> onetom: right
11:09:28 <ianni> onetom: it would be easy to do this thining in structs.... person w/ attached floor number, status, etc
11:09:30 <ianni> thing
11:09:40 <onetom> what status?
11:09:42 <ianni> onetom: how should I approach the problem?
11:09:48 <ianni> onetom: on elevator, not on elevator perhaps?
11:09:50 <ianni> waiting?
11:09:58 <ianni> or have array of waiting ppl and 
11:10:01 <ianni> oh, i guess u dont need that
11:10:07 <ianni> just which floor 2 go 2
11:10:18 <ianni> ?
11:10:24 <ianni> i dunno
11:10:33 <ianni> trying to figure out how to do the memory
11:10:36 <onetom> think obj oriented. thats right. but when u look @ the problem closer u can see, there is no need 2 store 2 much about a person, except its ID
11:11:38 <ianni> onetom: hmm, this is true
11:11:50 <ianni> onetom: so I should just allocate some static arrays you think
11:11:52 <ianni> ?
11:12:05 <ianni> then how to look up "by" id?
11:12:06 <ianni> i mean
11:12:10 <onetom> but u can solve the problem also w structs 1st
11:12:31 <ianni> i guess I store id...
11:12:38 <onetom> but after that u gonna see the optimization points
11:12:40 <ianni> in-elevator array
11:12:55 <ianni> an array for each floor seems bad
11:12:59 <onetom> why should u look up by id?
11:13:04 <onetom> why?
11:13:05 <ianni> need a simple way to map
11:13:13 <ianni> I'm not sure!
11:13:17 <ianni> what if i have 125 floors
11:13:37 <ianni> copying and pasting 125 rows seems bad, initially, compared to somehow storing row # and associating it with person ID?
11:13:53 <ianni> or am i thinking like a high level coder again?
11:14:02 <ianni> trying 2 make reusuable code too much
11:14:09 <ianni> ;)
11:15:25 <tathi> reusable code is always important
11:19:49 <onetom> ianni: 2 some extent...
11:20:24 <onetom> ianni: but what would u like 2 repeat so much? the creation of floor queues?
11:20:57 <Herkamire> ianni: I suggest you program something more real.
11:21:06 <Herkamire> inventing a probablem isn't really what forth is about
11:21:19 <onetom> Herkamire: hey! its fucking real!
11:21:20 <Herkamire> forth is about getting around problems
11:21:37 <onetom> Herkamire: isnt it a real problem 2 control an elevator?
11:22:02 <Herkamire> if you define the i/o first and tell him to write a controller sure.
11:22:15 <onetom> Herkamire: there r ~2 keys on a bunch of floors, some control lamps
11:22:38 <onetom> Herkamire: & 1 motor whats spinning direction is controlled...
11:23:14 <onetom> gotta go 4 a while
11:23:31 <Herkamire> how does he control the motor? 
11:23:40 <Herkamire> how can he tell when the elivator has reached a floor?
11:26:02 <Herkamire> ianni: how about you write a telnet client, or a text editor, or a file browser or something
11:26:13 <Herkamire> or a text adventure game
11:26:53 <Herkamire> a text adventure game would be fun
11:29:35 <tathi> bah, doesn't matter what you write really. as long as you're motivated to actually _do_ it :)
11:29:40 <Herkamire> the first word of input is the verb (or command) and the seccond (optional) is the object of the sentence
11:30:40 <Herkamire> true
11:33:55 <Herkamire> find something that sparks your interest. then figure out somethinng small that you can do first and see results.
11:37:21 <ianni> text adventure game isnt fun for me.
11:37:26 <ianni> I want useful things. ..
11:37:34 <ianni> elevator system could potentially be useful..
11:37:48 <ianni> <!tathi> bah, doesn't matter what you write really. as long as you're motivated to
11:37:48 <ianni> +actually _do_ it :)
11:37:48 <ianni> exactly
11:38:10 <ianni> telnet client and stuff is still a bit too overwhelming for me
11:38:26 <ianni> i need to get better immersed in forth
11:38:33 <ianni> mem. management esp
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11:41:45 <thin> what's up !
11:42:09 <tathi> hey thin
11:42:39 <tathi> ianni: you need to keep track of the elevators and the people.
11:42:50 <tathi> don't worry about the floors -- they probably don't move around much
11:43:26 <thin> uhh
11:43:29 <thin> how do you know they dont?!
11:43:31 <thin> :P
11:43:46 <tathi> I said _probably_
11:43:49 <thin> ianni:  simplify the problem first..  do you really care about elevators? ;P
11:44:02 <Herkamire> hehe :)
11:44:05 <thin> tathi: ohh ohh!
11:44:07 <tathi> yeah, you could save yourself writing 100% of the code right there
11:44:24 <ianni> thin: yeah,
11:44:32 <ianni> hahaha
11:44:33 <ianni> :)
11:44:49 <thin> what's the problem anyways?
11:44:52 <thin> i'm not sure
11:44:56 <ianni> well, im wondering how I could write code that would keep track of id's... and attributes related to those id's
11:44:57 <ianni> n general
11:45:08 <ianni> like say I need to keep track of what floor people are on for some reason
11:45:20 <thin> hmm
11:45:22 <ianni> in forth, what is a good way to go about storing metadata about those people... erg..
11:45:23 <ianni> i dunnno
11:45:31 <thin> might this be agent-based?
11:45:36 <ianni> creating 100 "story" arrays seems stupid.
11:45:41 <ianni> nah its gonna be a simple learning model
11:45:52 <ianni> i dunno whut you mean by agent-based, but its gonna be a simple exercise
11:46:18 <thin> agent-based is when you create all these "autonomous" agents that follow some simple rules and do stuff
11:46:19 <ianni> like, i need to store information about a person, well, it'd be easy to allocate space in a main array and write there... hrmmmmm
11:46:36 <ianni> allocating 3 cells per each person maybe, and then looping till i find the person and getting hte cell after the next one to find their attribute?
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11:46:44 <thin> like there's an agent-based simulation called sugarscape, where all these agents harvest sugar, move around, die, reproduce
11:46:49 <ianni> i dont wanna go all out using OO words and crap becaue I need to learn to do stuff simpler...
11:46:53 <ianni> thin, ahh,,
11:46:56 <ianni> thin, perhaps thenm
11:47:23 <thin> it's actually a bit interesting, because when they have two colonies of agents and two different resources, they'll even set up trade!
11:47:33 <thin> maigcal-like ;)
11:47:40 <thin> based on a few simple rules
11:47:58 <thin> ianni: why not pretend the word is an object?
11:48:15 <ianni> I don't know
11:48:23 <ianni> good thinking ...
11:48:25 <thin> a word is a data structure anyways, so feel free to CREATE it instead of using :
11:48:26 <ianni> BUT
11:48:31 <ianni> i still dont know where to...
11:48:37 <ianni> store information
11:48:38 <ianni> ugh
11:48:44 <thin> umm
11:48:49 <ianni> hahaha
11:48:49 <thin> how many people are there?
11:49:00 <thin> you want to track them on floors and on elevators ??
11:49:01 <ianni> i dunno, im thinking even more generally than this prblem here.
11:49:03 <ianni> like
11:49:24 <ianni> if I want to have an array variable that holds information about people...
11:49:36 <ianni> how am i suppoed to look up the information by person id
11:49:45 <ianni> I shouldnt be thinking along these lines
11:49:58 <ianni> but itseems inefficient to RE-store the person # next to the data just so I know how to look it up
11:50:11 <ianni> i mtrying to figure out how to do a hashtable without having to hash heh
11:50:16 <ianni> sortof
11:50:24 <thin> a linked table?
11:50:26 <ianni> hmm... yes..
11:50:29 <tathi> so why not just create an array of people -- the id can just be the index
11:50:29 <ianni> so create a word...
11:50:30 <ianni> hmm...
11:50:37 <ianni> uh, yeah
11:50:41 <ianni> Aha
11:50:48 <ianni> good idea that
11:50:56 <ianni> lol
11:51:02 <tathi> ianni: forth doesn't have any magical answers. you still have data structures.
11:51:11 <ianni> yeah, I know man, I feel dumb asking this stuff in the first place
11:51:15 <ianni> honestly
11:51:15 <tathi> it just encourages you to think about how your structures fit in memory a bit more.
11:51:39 <ianni> but i a asking because I do not want to run off and try to use other peoples words.
11:51:40 <ianni> yes.
11:51:42 <ianni> totally
11:51:45 <ianni> and it totally depends on the problem
11:51:51 <ianni> a 'linked table' like u said it perfect
11:52:02 <ianni> I just am not familiar in doing anything so stuff doesnt come as easily
11:52:05 <tathi> and to not use lists, queues, and dynamic stuff like that when you could just make an array
11:52:29 <tathi> ianni: I realize that -- I just think you're working too hard at it. :)
11:52:50 <thin> blah (addy to linked table)  ..   blah @ (addy to next place)  @ (addy to 2nd next place)..    blah 16 + @  (something stored next cell)  
11:53:06 <ianni> tathi: I wholeheartedly agree with you
11:53:16 <ianni> which is why I'm trying to be shot down mercilessly in #forth
11:53:18 <ianni> :)
11:53:57 <tathi> if you're not actually writing code, try starting -- I find that it's much easier to see where you can simplify when you're trying to put it into code and find that it's hard to write :)
11:54:01 <ianni> hrmm, how many bytes in a cell in 32 bit machines, 4?
11:54:05 <ianni> yeah, duh
11:54:06 <ianni> ok
11:54:15 <ianni> tathi yeah I know, Im at that point now.
11:54:18 <tathi> cool cool
11:54:19 <ianni> need 2 start :)
11:54:37 <ianni> i was trying, but i jsut couldnt decide how to go about starting typing out the memory structuer even
11:54:41 <ianni> s
11:55:23 <tathi> yeah, the tricky thing with forth is figuring out where to start so you can try something out right away, rather than writing tons of code and then getting bogged down trying to debug it all
11:55:54 <tathi> you may not have to type out the memory structures
11:56:04 <tathi> write them down on paper, then write words to access them maybe
11:56:29 <thin> create linkedtable  1024 allot    : filltable linkedtable dup 16 + ( or 32 + ) dup -rot , ;
11:56:36 <thin> that'll make a linkedtable i guess
11:56:41 <thin> unless i'm completely wrong ;P
11:57:09 <thin> and it doesn't check if it goes out of bounds yay!
11:57:17 <tathi> heh
11:57:52 <tathi> I had the _hardest_ time learning not to clutter up my code with unnecessary bounds checking :)
11:57:57 <thin> : filltable linkedtable 1024 2 / 0 do dup CELL + dup -rot , loop ;
11:58:12 <tathi> whats -rot?
11:58:16 <thin> reverse rot
11:58:19 <tathi> ah
11:58:20 <thin> puts the top on the bottom
11:58:30 <thin> at 3rd place anyways
11:58:49 <tathi> I can never remember which way rot goes -- always have to look it up
11:58:56 <tathi> so I sort of quit using it :)
11:59:18 <I440r> rotate third item out to top
11:59:36 <I440r> just remember "rotate out"
12:00:07 <tathi> hm, thanks
12:00:35 <thin> tathi: if you don't use rot, what do you use?
12:00:45 * thin shudders in anticipation ;P
12:00:51 <I440r> >r swap r> swap :)
12:01:02 <tathi> I haven't needed it much
12:01:09 <thin> swap is evil tho
12:01:18 <thin> i mean
12:01:23 <I440r> err thats silly think swap is cool
12:01:24 <thin> chuck moore didn't implement swap in hardware
12:01:38 <thin> apparently he felt it was unnecessary
12:01:41 <thin> and used incommonly
12:01:43 <thin> so what gives??
12:01:45 <tathi> thin: I e-mailed Jeff asking him about that the other day...want to see his answer?
12:01:50 <thin> sure
12:01:55 <thin> tathi: jbrobey@yahoo.com
12:02:17 <I440r> brb, getting coffee
12:02:59 <tathi> thin: http://tathi.homeip.net:5000/forth/swap.txt (mine to him) and re-swap.txt (his answer)
12:04:41 <tathi> hmm, I don't seem to have a single occurrence of ROT in my approximately 15KB of colorForth code...
12:05:17 <XeF4> fuck you, Jeff
12:05:23 <XeF4> or another ANS style
12:05:24 <XeF4> : SWAP " >r a! r> a" EVALUATE ;
12:05:33 <tathi> yeah
12:05:43 <tathi> I can't imagine anyone is THAT dumb
12:06:29 <XeF4> I think that's his sense of humour
12:07:06 <thin> how do you know nobody is that dumb? :/
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12:07:16 <neobrat> hola all
12:07:22 <thin> hi neobrat! :D
12:07:25 <tathi> hey hey
12:07:35 <thin> neobrat: what do you teach? :)
12:07:47 <neobrat> how u kno wi teach?
12:07:57 <thin> you said that's why you had to leave yesterday
12:08:02 * thin is bugslayer
12:08:04 <neobrat> oh hehe =)
12:08:12 <neobrat> I teach Taekwon-Do
12:08:17 <thin> cool :)
12:08:38 <neobrat> I like it
12:09:10 <thin> i did gung-fu for a year, unfortunately i didn't like their teaching style (they held be back to wait for 2 others to catch up :/  i ended up doing the same moves over and over for a month)
12:09:37 <neobrat> some places are like that
12:09:39 <I440r> thin lol thats the ONLY way to master the moves
12:09:46 <I440r> you cant SKIP shit :P
12:10:04 <neobrat> i was taught privately by someone -- so my students are select college students
12:10:06 <thin> no, i had mastered it for the most part
12:10:22 <thin> um
12:10:31 <I440r> neo i started with tae kwan do, double graded on my first grading but the school went to crap after that because of a change of teacher.
12:11:27 <thin> next time i go into martial arts, i'm going to make it clear to the teacher that i want to progress fast in learning the new moves.  that way it keeps it interesting.   and i would continually do all the moves i know and work on mastering them while learning the new moves to keep it interesting..
12:11:31 <I440r> i do wing chun now (absolute beginner)
12:11:55 <I440r> thin go for wing chun, you can learn ALL the moves in the first patern :)
12:12:06 <I440r> the first form contains EVERY SINGLE basic move
12:12:28 <thin> tathi: what does the p in 500ps  stand for?
12:12:31 <I440r> you can learn the entire martial art in about a years worht of study (mastering it takes a little longer :)
12:13:09 <neobrat> hehe i wish
12:13:15 <XeF4> pico
12:13:23 <neobrat> wing chun is cool
12:13:24 <I440r> not TKD - wing chun
12:13:54 <I440r> bruce lee only learned teh absolute basics of wing chun and Yip Man refused to teach him the rest
12:14:06 <neobrat> interesting -- didn't know that
12:14:15 <neobrat> how long have you been studying?
12:14:40 <I440r> less than a year
12:14:51 <I440r> and i moved 2 hours south of the teacher (baught a house)
12:15:03 <I440r> im an absolute absolute beginner
12:15:12 <neobrat> congrats -- i actually just bought my first house this past april
12:15:19 <I440r> but my teacher studied in hong kong under one of yip mans top students
12:15:29 <neobrat> thats good to know
12:15:34 <I440r> this is my first house too and i might lose it :(
12:15:39 <neobrat> why?
12:15:47 <I440r> ive not had work since august last year
12:16:04 <neobrat> wow -- im sorry to hear that
12:16:29 <neobrat> i've been pretty lucky -- I work in the oil pipeline industry, it never gets affected by the market
12:16:32 <I440r> grr how do you get cp to copy . files too ?
12:16:49 <neobrat> cp "./blah"
12:16:57 <I440r> ui think the pipeline would have a tendancey to affect the market first :)
12:17:05 <I440r> no not a specific . file
12:17:16 <I440r> ALL . files plus all NON . files
12:17:34 <I440r> copy ALL FILES hidden or otherwise from the current directory (recursivly) to the target dir
12:17:38 <I440r> is what i want
12:17:53 <neobrat> hmm, gotta think about that one
12:18:01 <neobrat> is there a -r option for recursive?
12:18:09 <neobrat> cp -r *.* 
12:18:19 <I440r> no thats not right
12:18:29 <I440r> cp -R * copies everything except . files
12:18:37 <I440r> cp -R .* copies ONLY dot files
12:18:40 <neobrat> been a LONG time since i used unix
12:18:52 <I440r> :)
12:18:58 <I440r> ill tgz it instead :P
12:19:05 <tathi> that's my solution :)
12:19:33 <ianni> I want to learn kung fu.,
12:19:43 <I440r> fuck i just blew it ALL the fuck away
12:19:44 <I440r> fuck
12:19:44 <I440r> fuck
12:19:46 <I440r> fuck
12:19:46 <I440r> fuck
12:19:46 <I440r> fuck
12:19:46 <I440r> fuck
12:19:48 <I440r> fuck
12:19:49 <I440r> fuck
12:19:52 <I440r> fuck
12:20:54 <I440r> i just blew away 6 weeks of work
12:21:22 <tathi> code?
12:21:35 <I440r> im trying mc's undelete
12:21:38 <I440r> isforths latest sources
12:21:42 <I440r> i have old source
12:21:53 <I440r> i tried to copy under mc and in this light i hit F8 instead
12:22:00 <I440r> and deleted it instead of COPYING it
12:22:16 <I440r> fuck
12:22:34 <thin> ouch :(
12:23:33 <tathi> :(
12:23:36 <tathi> no version control?
12:23:37 <neobrat> that hurts
12:23:49 <I440r> in linux 
12:23:51 <I440r> ?
12:23:55 <I440r> i DELETED the files
12:24:08 <I440r> im trying mc's UNDELETE
12:24:12 <thin> tathi: i440r doesn't like cvs i think
12:24:26 <neobrat> *prays with I440r*
12:24:37 <I440r> oopts i didnt delete it
12:24:40 <neobrat> *doens't know how to emote*
12:24:40 <I440r> i DID copy it
12:24:42 <thin> whew
12:24:46 <ianni> hahah
12:24:49 <neobrat> there is a god
12:24:50 <I440r> to my server. then i accidently deleted the local copy!!!!
12:24:51 <ianni> I440r++
12:24:53 <I440r> im saved!!!!!!!!!!!!!
12:24:53 <ianni> noo
12:24:55 <ianni> ahhh
12:24:57 <ianni> hehe
12:25:00 <thin> neobrat:  you type /me <stuff>
12:25:07 <ianni> I440r: good time to make backup copies :)
12:25:09 <ianni> heheh
12:25:14 * neobrat is thankful.
12:25:15 <neobrat> cool
12:25:27 <I440r> except i will have lost a few . files that didnt get copied
12:25:39 <I440r> but those ill have thin recreate :)))
12:25:44 <thin> heh
12:25:50 <thin> lies
12:25:59 <thin> what good were the . files?
12:26:07 <thin> were they just .bash_profile and such?
12:26:44 <I440r> no
12:26:56 <I440r> they were teh help files for words beginning with . 
12:26:58 <I440r> forth words
12:27:07 <I440r> .s . .foo .bar .foobar
12:27:09 <I440r> etc
12:29:11 <tathi> I440r: I thought you used PRCS (not sure of the name) for version control?
12:30:03 <thin> oh
12:30:18 <I440r> ui do but i hate verstion control, its a pain in the ass
12:30:29 <I440r> im never reverting to a old version anyway so why bother
12:30:36 <I440r> when i make an edit i usually test it and FIX IT
12:30:40 <neobrat> i cant stand it either, unless working on a multi-programmer project
12:30:41 <I440r> if it breaks something else i fix that too
12:30:46 <I440r> i dont go reverting an edit
12:31:07 <I440r> even if isforth was multi developer i would say who was editing what and where
12:31:22 <tathi> I440r: one word -- backups ;)
12:31:26 <I440r> i wouldnt have a globally accessable repository where everyone can edit all the files togehter
12:31:30 <I440r> and MERGE <-- ugh
12:32:59 <tathi> but hey, if you'd rather leave yourself open to losing 6 weeks of work...
12:33:19 <I440r> bleh :P
12:33:30 <I440r> that only happens when im trying to do 239846523849 things at the same time
12:33:34 <I440r> it was futhins fault :P
12:33:54 --- quit: TreyB ()
12:37:40 <ianni> damned humans
12:37:52 <ianni> we need a program to write programs
12:38:52 <ianni> why is there no "cells" word in isforth?
12:39:16 <I440r> because cells is a bullshit word
12:39:19 <ianni> a cell is just like 4 * 1 byte on this linux machien right?
12:39:20 <I440r> its 4* or 4+
12:39:26 <I440r> not cells or cell+
12:39:27 <ianni> I440r: that's the answer i was hoping to hear
12:39:31 <ianni> :)
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12:39:44 <ianni> great
12:39:54 <I440r> its a pile of crap idea to try and convince the morons that they are writing PORTABLE code
12:40:07 <I440r> "i dont realy know how big a cell is"
12:40:14 <I440r> if you dont know how big a cell is you shouldnt be coding
12:40:16 <I440r> period
12:40:20 <I440r> this is a 32 bit forth
12:40:24 <I440r> i KNOW how big a cell is
12:40:29 <I440r> its never going to change in isforth
12:40:47 <I440r> i could care less if sources for isforth compile on someone elses forth
12:40:50 <ianni> Ok, I agree 
12:40:50 <ianni> and understand
12:40:54 <I440r> or if there soruces compile on mine
12:41:07 <ianni> hell, seems not using a cell would be more portable
12:41:40 <I440r> i make absolutely NO pretense what so ever of portability
12:41:41 <ianni> there would be no confusion in porting...
12:41:55 <I440r> its a myth. other people try and confuse the issue by denying that fact
12:42:06 <I440r> exactly
12:42:16 <I440r> YOU can write it so that porting it would be a snap
12:42:35 <I440r> writing it to work on all 2349875623987546284937 different architectures/processors is making it SUCK at all of them
12:43:19 <ianni> so why do people even use celss?
12:43:21 <ianni> cells?
12:43:43 <ianni> seems so stupid now
12:43:53 <ianni> hehe
12:44:32 <I440r> because they are conformists
12:44:33 <I440r> im not
12:44:43 <I440r> :)
12:45:48 <I440r> neobrat - if you couldnt tell im absolutely 100% anti ans :)
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12:46:11 <neobrat> i think so
12:46:14 <neobrat> ;)
12:46:23 <ianni> hehe
12:46:49 <neobrat> any of you done Python coding?
12:46:59 <ianni> once
12:47:08 <neobrat> i haven't -- what did you think of it?
12:47:22 <ianni> it's ok, I prefer Java 
12:47:33 <I440r> eek!
12:47:36 <I440r> java is evil!
12:47:37 <OrngeTide> hrm. it's so hard to find people to program with. my project is even part C and part FORTH. i'd think people would jump all over that. :)
12:47:39 <I440r> :)
12:47:39 * OrngeTide sighs
12:47:48 <I440r> if its not asm and its not forth its not worth my time :)
12:47:51 <ianni> OrngeTide: what are you doing ?
12:48:02 <Herkamire> I've done a bit of python. it's pretty cool.
12:48:02 <neobrat> whats ur project?
12:48:07 <ianni> I440r: I'm an evil kind of guy. :)
12:48:23 <ianni> I make money off Java.... hey, people make shitloads of money off that .NET bullshit
12:48:38 <neobrat> I actually very much love .NET ;)
12:48:49 <OrngeTide> ianni, it's an online gaming system. kinda like a MUD. but graphical. uses forth to drive the game engine and C for the networking and low-level stuff.
12:48:53 <neobrat> Its one of a few things that MS got right
12:48:54 <I440r> well it seems that before i copied the source files and then deleted them i made an edit that broke them. now that ive rescued the sources i need to fix them too :P
12:48:56 <ianni> neobrat: it's a good idea, nice and proprietized
12:49:07 <OrngeTide> forth rules all. forth is the best. :P
12:49:13 <I440r> OrngeTide why not use forht for both
12:49:20 <ianni> forth is easily the best
12:49:22 <Herkamire> isn't .NET that thing where MS gives everyone in the known world your e-mail address so they can spam you to death?
12:49:32 <ianni> Herkamire - hahah, no.. ;)
12:49:36 <ianni> maybe partially :)
12:49:40 <neobrat> Herk: something like that =)
12:49:42 <Herkamire> or (even more embarrassing) makes you give it out yourself
12:49:48 <OrngeTide> I440r: cuz i want to run it on linux.
12:49:49 <ianni> heh
12:49:59 <OrngeTide> unix is not a good platform for forth.
12:50:21 <OrngeTide> it's a big hack to get forth on unix since symbol tables and linking isn't like the forth way of just having words.
12:50:21 <I440r> OrngeTide err. my forth runs in linux. my forth has sockets (see the next release... soon?)
12:50:39 <OrngeTide> I440r, so does mine. but it's not high performance and it's a hack.
12:50:48 <I440r> OrngeTide my forth is written in assembler. not c. it uses syscalls to do everything
12:51:03 <OrngeTide> a proper forth should run under a VM or on the raw machine. and be geared to directly manipulate the machine. forth is it's own OS. it's not a programming language.
12:51:16 <I440r> OrngeTide isforth isnt super duper high performance but its not a slowpoke either :)
12:51:20 <OrngeTide> I440r, i can't do asm for mine because it needs to run on linux.
12:51:27 <Robert> Hi, OrngeTide.
12:51:34 <I440r> OrngeTide thats what isforth IS. isforth treats the linux kernel as its BIOS
12:52:00 <OrngeTide> I440r, think of my C core as a virtual machine to abstract the hardware in a way that makes it easier to have a simplier forth on.
12:52:06 <I440r> eventually ill have an assembler extension and a metacompiler.
12:52:09 <I440r> i have no c core
12:52:13 <OrngeTide> I440r, a proper forth has no BIOS
12:52:27 <neobrat> I440r, isforth would be more portable if you used Java instead of ASM <g>
12:52:33 <OrngeTide> I440r, i run on PPC Linux mainly. but I know a lot of people use x86 Linux so asm is out of the question.
12:52:46 <I440r> OrngeTide i dont give ONE FLYING FUCK about being portable
12:52:55 <OrngeTide> I440r, don't be rude.
12:53:02 <I440r> in fact being NOT portable is a prime directive
12:53:06 <I440r> sorry heh
12:53:11 <OrngeTide> i have different requirements. that's why your way isn't appropriate for what i'm doing.
12:53:22 <neobrat> i think he got us mixed up there ;) 
12:53:25 <OrngeTide> I440r, i don't want to get letter bombs for making my program PPC-only :)
12:53:41 <I440r> lol isforth is x86 ONLY
12:53:41 <neobrat> and i was being ultra sarcastic ;)
12:53:52 <OrngeTide> I440r, if it was PPC only people would whine more.
12:54:08 <OrngeTide> x86 is such a crap architecture anyways. :P
12:54:23 <Herkamire> here here!
12:54:26 <ianni> cheap and common though
12:54:44 <OrngeTide> Z80 is cheaper. :)
12:54:49 <OrngeTide> i'd rather code my forth for Z80
12:54:52 <Herkamire> heh :)
12:55:16 <Robert> :)
12:55:19 <OrngeTide> and my ForthOS will more than likely be for M7702 or a Z80. i'd rather go with the 7702 but they are kinda hard to obtain in small quantities.
12:55:23 <Herkamire> I think forth would be the best in a forth OS.
12:55:40 <Robert> I saw a Z80 for $2, and an 8088 for $3.5... I can afford both :)
12:55:49 <Herkamire> I think a good step towards portability is to define a VM
12:55:50 <OrngeTide> herkamire, exactly. then you don't have to carry all that unix C baggage.
12:56:13 <OrngeTide> Robert, you can afford Z80 because you don't need support chips for it. you can'y run a naked 8086 but you can run a naked Z80.
12:56:23 <OrngeTide> same with a 7702 you can run that naked too
12:56:48 <OrngeTide> i'm working on a kit that people will beable to get all the parts for and put together with only a small amount of soldering skill. :)
12:56:54 <OrngeTide> and the kit will run my forthOS :)
12:57:19 <OrngeTide> Herkamire: most people use MachineForth for the VM.
12:57:50 <Herkamire> OrngeTide: yeah. I should check that out. I'm glad there is a quasi-standard for that
12:58:26 <Herkamire> I'm not very interested in portability and VMs right now though
12:58:26 <XeF4> OrngeTide: but people assign their own opcodes to the machine forth instruction set with gay abandon
12:58:30 <neobrat> be back later all
12:58:31 <OrngeTide> Herkamire: i forgot who was telling me. but they fit a machineforth interpreter in the 512 byte bootloader and it loaded up an entirely virtual forth off a floppy:)
12:58:36 * neobrat waves to everyone.
12:58:52 <OrngeTide> XeF4: really? i use the real opcodes.
12:58:56 <XeF4> Ornge: that might have been me
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12:59:02 <OrngeTide> well i pad them to 8bits though.
12:59:04 <Herkamire> OrngeTide: cool :)
12:59:14 <OrngeTide> Herkamire: yah. i thought it was kinda a clever idea.
12:59:28 <Herkamire> OrngeTide: is that what Chuck Moore did?
12:59:30 <OrngeTide> my forthOS will have postscript-like graphics API for interacting with the gui. ehehhe
12:59:38 <OrngeTide> Herkamire: no. someing in #forth. might have been XeF4 :)
12:59:47 <XeF4> at least I've done a machine forth in <500 bytes, but without IO to be actually useful as a bootsector
12:59:51 <OrngeTide> although some people hate my forth cuz it's like StrongForth.
13:00:10 <OrngeTide> XeF4, oh. maybe it was you and i just misunderstood what it did.
13:00:47 <XeF4> could be that I mentioned a plan of making it into a useful bootsector forth
13:00:57 <XeF4> (which I've still been to lazy to get around to)
13:01:00 <OrngeTide> XeF4, oh. that might have been it.
13:01:32 <OrngeTide> XeF4, i could burn it on a flash for you and drop it into a cheap NIC so you could make it into a diskless forth machine for like $12 
13:02:15 <ianni> damn!
13:02:22 <ianni> nice
13:02:28 <XeF4> diskless forth machine with what?
13:02:39 <OrngeTide> XeF4, with no disk! :P
13:02:53 <OrngeTide> just a keyboard and monitor. :P
13:02:56 <XeF4> yes, but processor/mem?
13:03:07 <OrngeTide> well it'd be a PC, yah.
13:03:23 <OrngeTide> i'd just use the NIC as a cheap way to put the system on a eeprom/flash
13:04:00 <XeF4> ah, you mean the NIC+eprom for $12.  sorry, I misread.
13:04:17 <OrngeTide> i've been debating if i should just abandon my z80/m7702 forth kit and just write it as a replacement for palmOS.
13:04:24 <OrngeTide> XeF4, ohhh.. yah. sorry
13:04:48 <OrngeTide> cuz you could get one of the really low-end palms for about the same price as the kit i'm thinking of.
13:05:04 <Herkamire> I've been wondering if it would be easier to write a forth system for palm/visor hardware
13:05:20 <tathi> the kit would probably be easier to interface to random other electronics though...?
13:05:24 <Herkamire> problem is that I like the visors so much better, and they aren't making them anymore
13:05:28 <OrngeTide> hrm. 68000 is not a bad cpu for forth.
13:05:41 <OrngeTide> the trick is finding out enough bout the low-level stuff to get it to work.
13:05:56 <OrngeTide> normally you access all the hardware through palmOS api. 
13:06:15 <XeF4> linux has been ported to palm
13:06:17 <OrngeTide> but to get the basic stuff like LCD, touch, buttons and serial port that's not hard. that's well known. 
13:06:22 <OrngeTide> XeF4, sort of.
13:06:35 <OrngeTide> it's not like you can just download it and install it on your palm.
13:06:36 <XeF4> what hardware support is missing?
13:06:42 <OrngeTide> it only supports 1 palm.
13:06:54 <OrngeTide> there is a company linuxda.com that sells linux for PalmIIIx and PalmVx
13:07:14 <OrngeTide> it's like $60 .. or you can just buy a PalmVx preloaded for $130 or something
13:08:01 <OrngeTide> each model is slightly different is the problem. especially when you go from the slower cpus to the faster ones. the integrated LCD has a totally different memory map and options.
13:08:14 <OrngeTide> well not totally different. but similar enough to want documentation to know how to initilize it all
13:08:29 <XeF4> urf
13:08:58 <OrngeTide> the other problem is that if you flash your palm and your program doesn't work well enough to kick off the flashloader again then you're stuck 
13:09:43 <OrngeTide> i couldn't find a header to burn the flash on the palm will it was on the system. i'd need like a JTAG and code up a little JTAG program to burn flash.
13:09:59 <OrngeTide> and that's going to be pretty pricey.
13:11:49 <Herkamire> I think there's at least one PDA that only runs linux
13:14:18 <OrngeTide> linuxda.com makes their own palm-like PDAs that run linux. there is AgendaVR3 which was discontinued (but i own one). there is Sharp Zaurus and there is Yopy
13:14:40 <OrngeTide> i'd go with linuxDA cuz they have the best price.
13:14:50 <OrngeTide> AgendaVR3 is nice but the battery life is pathetic
13:16:48 <Herkamire> I was looking at AgendaVR3. it looked really cool. but it looks like it's dead
13:17:30 <OrngeTide> yah. the OS on it is great though. they did a good job getting linux to run fast and have a nice easy to use UI. and a ton of games
13:17:43 <Herkamire> awesome :)
13:17:45 <OrngeTide> and it was actually pretty small. but it ran off AAA batteries and would eat them in a few days
13:17:58 <Herkamire> I read somewhere that it was slow. but I don't know how old or how credible that was
13:18:15 <OrngeTide> it was slow on the old ELF version. the new SNOW versions were fast though
13:18:27 <Herkamire> cool
13:18:38 <Herkamire> that sucks about batteries
13:18:47 <OrngeTide> but it didn't come with forth. so it was useless. :P
13:18:54 <Herkamire> heh :)
13:19:12 <Herkamire> I want a forth os on something like that and a targus folding keyboard. That would be a great laptop :)
13:19:15 <OrngeTide> i used those NiMH rechargables. that seemed to be the most economical.
13:19:33 <OrngeTide> herkamire, just buy an HP 200LX.
13:19:44 <OrngeTide> mine ran for months on a set of AAs
13:19:53 <Herkamire> what's that?
13:20:49 <OrngeTide> it's a palmtop. 640x200 CGA display. MS-DOS 5.0, qwerty keyboard, PCMCIA Type I slot, IR, 2Mb ramdisk ...
13:21:03 <OrngeTide> it's basically an AT/XT computer in your pocket. it was an 80186
13:21:15 <OrngeTide> i used pygmy forth on mine almost exclusively.
13:21:46 <OrngeTide> the HP 95LX is cheaper but it's harder to replace the OS. (the HP 200LX can boot into other OSes with some software tricks)
13:22:17 <OrngeTide> and the 95LX can only do 40x16 text mode (320x120 display)
13:22:32 <OrngeTide> but i have a 64Mb flash card on mine so i had tons of diskspace.
13:22:47 <Herkamire> what's cga?
13:22:56 <OrngeTide> CGA is like VGA except crappy:P
13:23:44 <OrngeTide> 640x200 2 and 4 color graphics mode. 16 color text mode. (but the LCD on that was grayscale)
13:24:00 <OrngeTide> but any DOS game that supported CGA would work fine on that palmtop.
13:24:14 <OrngeTide> i bought a couple of them. i think you can get them for $50-$100 depending on where you look
13:24:16 <Herkamire> DOS frightens me
13:24:22 <OrngeTide> ehhehe.
13:24:28 <Herkamire> it does
13:24:37 <OrngeTide> well this was instant-on too. you never had to "boot" it. 
13:24:57 <OrngeTide> it stored everything in SRAM and suspends the cpu when you turn it "off"
13:25:48 <OrngeTide> they keyboard took time to get used to. it was like one of those HP calculators with the hard plastic buttons.
13:25:56 <OrngeTide> s/they/the
13:26:10 <OrngeTide> it's kinda big too. it's about the size of a small paperback novel.
13:26:13 <Herkamire> are the buttons small?
13:26:21 <OrngeTide> but that's about the same as the palm + a target keyboard
13:26:43 <OrngeTide> they are small but have huge gaps between the keys so you don't really have a problem "touch typing" with 2 fingers on each hand.
13:26:48 <Herkamire> but with the targus keyboard, I can put the keyboard in my other pants pocket
13:26:54 <OrngeTide> that's true.
13:27:04 <OrngeTide> you could wear a fanny pack:P
13:27:22 <Herkamire> but then I feel like a fanny
13:28:28 <OrngeTide> http://www.bytecom.be/gallery/hp200lx.htm <-- that's what it looks like. they are really old but there is a pretty big following for them.
13:33:04 <OrngeTide> well i gotta go find lunch. seeya.
13:34:06 <Herkamire> mmm no thanks. I don't want mineature keys
13:48:10 <onetom> bekk
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14:24:14 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
14:25:42 <I440r> how do you guys pronounce (abort)
14:25:52 <I440r> parenthasis abort or paren abort
14:26:03 <I440r> hi tbw :)
14:26:46 <TheBlueWizard> hiya I440r! :)
14:27:07 <TheBlueWizard> I am on Linux now, so I'm d/l'ing stuff from your site :)
14:28:06 <I440r> heh dont bother with the text windowing stuff or the structures stuff, im about to change all that :)
14:28:19 <I440r> actually ive already changed it, i just need to release it :P
14:28:48 <TheBlueWizard> I mean those old msdos proggies
14:29:16 <I440r> oh right :)
14:29:35 <I440r> how do you pronounce (abort) ?
14:30:35 <TheBlueWizard> the one in pub/enginebeats me...I never pronounce anything lol
14:31:07 <TreyB> I440r: In assembly: hlt
14:31:12 <TheBlueWizard> ack! I meant to hit a return after "engine" part
14:32:01 <I440r> lol
14:32:33 <TheBlueWizard> so 1.10b is going to be released soon, eh?
14:32:37 <I440r> that code has some interesting stuff in it but im gona rewrite most of it for isforth using the frame buffer some day :)
14:32:44 <I440r> soon maybe :)
14:32:54 <TheBlueWizard> :)
14:33:26 <TheBlueWizard> btw are those msdos code in public domain?
14:33:36 <Herkamire> I440r: "abort" or if it's not clear "paren-abort"
14:34:08 <I440r> i always pronounce it parenthasis abort 
14:34:13 <I440r> but paren abort works for me too heh
14:34:21 <I440r> what about ;code (;code) ?
14:34:30 <I440r> actually, isforth doesnt have (;code)
14:34:59 <I440r> but i might change that
14:35:15 <I440r> normally ;code is defined as : ;code compile (;code) ;
14:35:46 <TheBlueWizard> I440r: are msdos codes in public domain?
14:35:49 <I440r> ive herred "s code" "semi code" "semicolon code"
14:36:08 <I440r> those soruces arent realy PD, they are top secret shit ;)
14:36:11 <TheBlueWizard> how about wink code ;)
14:36:19 * TheBlueWizard laughs
14:36:22 <I440r> but you have permission to use them as you will :)
14:36:38 <TheBlueWizard> thanks :)
14:37:00 * TheBlueWizard pronounces ;CODE as "wink code" :)
14:37:44 <TheBlueWizard> I have a rather old book on PC graphics programming...haven't cracked the book open in years...damn busy :(
14:38:00 <ianni> hehe wink
14:38:46 <I440r> ill doa full blown 3d engine some day..
14:38:48 <I440r> in forth :)
14:39:02 <TheBlueWizard> ambitious! :)
14:39:59 <TheBlueWizard> seems like you have a growing list of programs to code up...a web browser, now this 3D engine! :)
14:41:09 <Herkamire> I440r: I would pronounce it "hey, look at this"
14:41:14 <I440r> yea
14:41:22 <I440r> and i havent even finished the compiler :)
14:41:44 <ianni>  need some fountain of youth
14:41:48 <TheBlueWizard> and not even developed this x86 assembler!
14:42:13 <TheBlueWizard> lmao....quite hard to find, from what I understand ;)
14:43:39 <TheBlueWizard> anyway, another sick day form me...so I spent almost all aternoon trying to work out the cursor movement logic...I believe I have it worked out now
14:43:57 <TheBlueWizard> s/form/for/
14:44:54 <TheBlueWizard> I440r: I suppose you hate malloc/free stuff?
14:45:22 <TheBlueWizard> just wondering, since I tend to develop a lot of code that calls for memory allocations
14:46:52 <Herkamire> "we've got enough youth. what we need is a fountain of smart."
14:47:34 <I440r> :)\
14:47:48 <I440r> tbw isforth HAS alloc and free :)
14:47:55 * TheBlueWizard finishes d/l'ing stuff
14:47:59 <I440r> doesnt have realloc yet and i need to work on the allocation code more
14:48:02 <TheBlueWizard> ah ok cool
14:48:10 * TheBlueWizard nods
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14:52:10 <I440r> hrm - what about does>
14:52:16 <I440r> how do you guys pronounce that
14:53:25 <TheBlueWizard> lemme find my old Pocket Forth booklet (it was published in early 80s...an extreme rarity nowadays :)
14:55:11 <TheBlueWizard> found it...it said DOES> is pronounced "does"
14:55:34 <Robert> Weee! Then I haven't been mispronouncing.
14:56:18 <TheBlueWizard> another: (ABORT) is "paren-abort"
14:56:51 <TheBlueWizard> another: (;CODE) is "paren-semicolon-code"
14:56:56 <Robert> Heh.
14:57:04 <Robert> I never pronounce these things anyway ;)
14:57:05 <I440r> good, thats always how i pronounce it :)
14:57:11 <Robert> Especially not in English.
14:57:21 <I440r> well you suck :P
14:57:27 <Robert> I know.
14:58:58 <TheBlueWizard> the booklet that I have is "Pocket Guide to FORTH", Linda Baker / Mitch Derick, published by Addison-Wesley (Programming Pocket Guides), copyright 1983
14:59:34 <Robert> Heh
15:00:06 <TheBlueWizard> the dimension is maybe 4" by 3" (roughly 110 pages)
15:00:26 <I440r> :)
15:00:39 <TheBlueWizard> let's see if Amazon has such item lol (am checking out now)
15:00:59 <Robert> Damn!
15:01:25 <TheBlueWizard> what?
15:01:27 <Robert> Why do I have to keep this bucked of old coins at the edge of my desk, right above the garbage box?!
15:01:32 <Robert> bucket
15:01:44 <sbk_> so, what's a suggested book for a forth newbie? I'm reasonably familiar with postscript.
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15:03:39 <I440r> starting forth
15:03:55 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...Amazon seems to have it in stock (of course it is used)
15:03:55 <sbk_> can't seem to find that easily, where can I buy it?
15:03:56 <I440r> also thin can tell you of a few online tutorials :)
15:04:22 <sbk_> online tutorials sound good. I looked at a few of brad rodriguez (is that right?)
15:04:24 <I440r> you cant now :(
15:04:27 <I440r> out of print
15:04:32 <TheBlueWizard> just search on "pocket forth" at the main page, and bang, there it is
15:04:43 <I440r> name isnt familiar to me
15:04:57 <TheBlueWizard> yeah, it is out of print, but it seems to have used books on sale
15:04:59 <I440r> brows ftp://ftp.taygeta.com (org?)
15:05:06 * sbk_ nods. ok.
15:05:07 <I440r> www.forth.org too
15:05:10 <TheBlueWizard> .com is correct
15:05:24 <sbk_> are you using isforth for any real(tm) application?
15:06:18 <TheBlueWizard> let's see if Amazon has Starting Forth in stock (of course it'd be a used book)
15:07:17 <sbk_> I looked at leo brodies web site, whatever link he gave out there seemed not to have it.
15:07:22 * sbk_ checks
15:08:59 <I440r> i dont even think leo brodie is even remotly interested in forth any more
15:09:06 <I440r> tho i might be wrong
15:09:29 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...Amazon seems to have the classic "Starting Forth" in stock
15:09:40 <TheBlueWizard> of course it's used
15:10:02 <TheBlueWizard> but there is another "Starting Forth" book...by same author name
15:10:09 <TheBlueWizard> that one cost $150
15:10:21 <TheBlueWizard> seems to be new
15:12:24 <TheBlueWizard> the reviewer of that book mentioned that after reading that book, he wrote his own Forth system, and put it up at http://home.earthlink.net/~jknapka/jkf.html
15:14:39 <sbk_> okay, I saw a few used ones on amazon too; looks like it's time to sneak out my credit card before the wife finds out.
15:15:00 <TheBlueWizard> lol
15:15:58 <sbk_> thanks all
15:16:05 --- quit: sbk_ ("bye")
15:22:16 <I440r> lol
15:22:42 <I440r> woohoo ive got 20% of this ISO image in TWO DAYS :)
15:23:43 <TheBlueWizard> what ISO image?
15:24:16 <I440r> a debian iso
15:25:40 <TheBlueWizard> ah...I got all 16 woody CDs already...my friend has a very fast Internet access and he burned both binaries and source and mail them to me
15:26:06 <TheBlueWizard> he is now out of work :(
15:26:16 <I440r> SIXTEEN ???????????????
15:26:18 <I440r> wtf
15:26:22 <I440r> potato was TWO cd's heh
15:26:26 * TheBlueWizard laughs
15:26:42 <TheBlueWizard> a full distro, both binary + source
15:26:57 <I440r> aha ok
15:27:00 <I440r> thats 4 cd's i think
15:27:04 <I440r> for potato
15:27:49 <TheBlueWizard> potato: 4 CDs (binary), yeah....woody is twice as big...and sarge is expected to be twice as big as woody!
15:29:39 <TheBlueWizard> when DSL get cheap enough, I'd efinitely go DSL...
15:30:00 <TheBlueWizard> then the Net will be on my fingertip at last :)
15:30:30 <I440r> heh im gona go watch a little tv
15:30:40 <I440r> i deleted all isforths soruces today
15:30:42 <I440r> rescued them
15:30:43 <TheBlueWizard> me too (news)
15:30:46 <I440r> discovered they were broken
15:30:51 <I440r> fixed them
15:30:56 <TheBlueWizard> heh
15:31:11 <I440r> and now im working on fixing the documentation that got b0rken :)
15:31:13 <I440r> bbl :)
15:31:34 <TheBlueWizard> lol...ok
15:43:00 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc2-login46.megatrondata.com) joined #forth
15:43:02 <onetom> ianni: u here?
15:43:12 <tcn> hi
15:43:14 <onetom> hello tcn
15:44:22 <TheBlueWizard> hiya tcn...I'm watching TV now
15:51:14 <thin> i don't understand people who feel the need to download and burn more than 1 linux cd
15:51:35 <thin> typically i just download 200 megs of slack and install from there
15:51:47 <thin> and if i need something, download it later
15:51:58 <thin> i usually get all the packages i need anyways
15:52:18 <Robert> Hi thin.
15:52:21 <thin> i don't even burn linux cds
15:52:24 <thin> just download it and install
15:52:44 <thin> happy bedtime robert!
15:52:48 <thin> :P
15:53:10 --- mode: ChanServ set +o thin
15:53:18 --- topic: set to 'IsForth: runs on linux, coded in x86 asm - http://isforth.clss.net | official forth sites: http://www.ultratechnology.com/forth.htm & http://www.colorforth.com' by thin
15:54:18 <Robert> :)
15:55:22 <thin> all smart kids go to bed at 10 pm and get up at 4 am ! :P
15:55:30 <thin> not the other way around
15:56:12 <thin> ( 2 am bed, get up at 8 am ) 
15:58:55 <TheBlueWizard> heh...but not enough hours of sleep
16:00:02 <TheBlueWizard> thin: I do need CDs cuz d/l'ing is slow (at least til I upgrade to faster access...but that's later!)  so it would be easier to build and rebuild systems at will
16:03:19 <TheBlueWizard> well...gotta go...bye all!
16:03:31 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth
16:15:37 <OrngeTide> i think my problem with isforth is that it runs on a non-forth OS. i'm just too picky i guess. it's pretty cool though. although i like pygmy forth better, but it might be because I'm used to pygmy.
16:15:39 * OrngeTide hrms.
16:18:53 <OrngeTide> damn. 'fsave' is convient. that's like the coolest part of isforth.
16:22:06 * OrngeTide goes back to working.
16:23:28 <Robert> Hmm..
16:23:33 <Robert> What does fsave do?
16:29:42 --- quit: tcn ()
16:34:05 <OrngeTide> Robert: it takes the entire system and dumps it out as an ELF.
16:34:20 <OrngeTide> so if you defined a bunch of words. fsave and you have an executable to run that will have your own words in it.
16:34:30 <Robert> Ah, nice.
16:34:37 <OrngeTide> it's how isforth compiles itself actually. but you can use/abuse it for your own stuff.
16:34:52 <OrngeTide> pygmy forth had something simular but it was a little more complicated.
16:34:53 <Robert> I thought it used turnkey...
16:34:59 <Robert> That's what I've always have done.
16:35:03 <OrngeTide> turnkey?
16:35:40 <OrngeTide> hrm. turnkey seems to do almost the same thing, except it screwed up my terminal.
16:35:49 <OrngeTide> and the file is a lot smaller.
16:35:58 * OrngeTide wonders what was taken out.
16:36:18 <OrngeTide> oh. turnkey didn't include my words. actually it lost all the original words too:P
16:36:18 <Robert> Well, I don't think everything is saved ;)
16:36:24 <OrngeTide> i can't even run 'bye' :P
16:36:31 <Robert> It's used to make stand-alone programs.
16:36:56 <OrngeTide> yah. that makes sense.
16:37:31 <OrngeTide> i'm more interested in extending isforth which is why i was so excited about fsave.
16:37:49 <Robert> Hmm..
16:38:08 <OrngeTide> i kinda want a block editor. although isforth seems to like ordinary flat files. hrm.
16:38:36 <OrngeTide> 64x16 is the superior way to edit source. :P
16:38:49 <Robert> Hehe.
16:38:56 <Robert> Fixed size columns?
16:39:17 <OrngeTide> you never used a normal forth?
16:39:30 <OrngeTide> normally you don't have files. you have 1K "blocks" for doing all disk I/O
16:40:01 <OrngeTide> you store a page of forth source in a block. 1 page is 64x16 .. you pad the blanks in with space.
16:40:03 <Robert> "Normal". Hey, I'm Born '86, not '36! :P
16:40:47 <OrngeTide> well this was normal for 86 but you probably weren't programming forth when you were 0 years old.
16:41:11 <Robert> How could you know that? :)
16:41:30 <OrngeTide> i was programming on a PC in BASIC in 1986...
16:41:42 <OrngeTide> Robert, lucky guess?
16:42:18 <OrngeTide> hrm.. maybe not a PC by then. i'm trying to remember when i got my first PC.
16:42:48 <OrngeTide> i think i got my first nintendo after my first PC. and I got my nintendo like in 1988.
16:43:13 <OrngeTide> i might have been doing basic on the ti-99/4a back in 86.
16:43:26 <OrngeTide> i started in the ti-99/4a in 82 though.
16:43:27 <Robert> I was a...2 year old baby back then. :)
16:43:45 <OrngeTide> robert, i'm not much older than you though. :P
16:44:03 <Robert> Ehm...10 years older? 15? :)
16:44:07 <OrngeTide> 8
16:44:14 <OrngeTide> i was born in 78.
16:44:24 <Robert> Ah...
16:44:46 <Robert> You had a programmable calculator when you were 4?
16:44:53 <OrngeTide> ti-99/4a is not a calculator
16:44:58 <Robert> Oh.
16:45:02 <Robert> Well, computer :P
16:45:17 * Robert imagines OrngeTide as a 4 year old BASIC programmer.
16:45:17 <OrngeTide> it's a home computer. full color. hook it up to your TV. I even had the 48k RAM on it and speech synthisizer and tons of cartridges.
16:45:28 <Robert> Wow.
16:45:29 <OrngeTide> i was about 4.5 when i wrote my first basic program.
16:45:34 <Robert> Hehe.
16:45:34 <OrngeTide> and almost 5 when i wrote my first game.
16:45:46 <Robert> I had not used a computer at 10.
16:46:00 <Robert> You were born to be a geek. >:)
16:46:35 <OrngeTide> they had us learning to type in 4th grade at my school. 4th grade would be like 10ish right?
16:46:43 <OrngeTide> robert, hehe.. my mom taught me how to program. :P
16:46:47 <Robert> Something like that.
16:46:50 <OrngeTide> she's computer illiterate now.
16:46:50 <Robert> Hehe.
16:47:14 <Robert> I taught myself to program using the QB reference manual in '97.
16:47:22 <OrngeTide> she doesn't understand all these icons and mouses and stuff. she liked DOS and the TI. those were easy. she could just type in what she wanted
16:47:32 <OrngeTide> robert, that's cool. QB was pretty fun.
16:47:41 <Robert> Yes.
16:47:57 <Robert> About your mom - I think she's perfectly right :)
16:48:03 <OrngeTide> I was reading the TI Extended BASIC manual all the time when i was a kid. it's all bent and ratty now from me flipping through it so much.
16:48:08 <Robert> Things are getting way out of control now.
16:48:18 <Robert> Hehe.
16:48:24 <Robert> I were reading stories ;)
16:48:30 <Robert> Was*
16:48:35 <OrngeTide> well if windows had a properly designed GUI that had good reasons for everything like MacOS then we wouldn't have these problems.
16:48:59 <OrngeTide> Robert: i read lots of scifi books around that time too.
16:49:25 <Robert> What time?
16:49:27 <Robert> '82?
16:49:39 <OrngeTide> yea. 
16:49:51 <Robert> At that age, I mostly read..well..normal stories.
16:50:13 <OrngeTide> i read books without pictures when i was 4+ :P
16:50:21 <Robert> Yes, same here...
16:50:40 <Robert> I hadn't heard of sci-fi back then.
16:50:52 <OrngeTide> but my parents are all book worms and would read to me all the time since i was like 0 days old. :P
16:50:59 <Robert> Hehe.
16:51:08 <OrngeTide> robert, my dad had tons of books. so i'd just read his books. that's how i got into sci-fi
16:51:39 <Robert> Well, I read 2010 after having seen the movie.
16:51:44 * Robert likes A.C. Clarke.
16:51:49 <OrngeTide> then i'd pester him about some of things i read to elaborate on how they might work. :P
16:51:53 <OrngeTide> clarke is okay.
16:52:14 <OrngeTide> i finally saw 2010 like last year. i liked the book way better
16:52:32 <Robert> Yes...the movie doesn't contain half of the book content's.
16:52:38 <Robert> I mean, where did the chinese go?
16:52:43 <OrngeTide> lately i've been reading philip k. dick. he's really interesting. 
16:52:57 <OrngeTide> robert, good question. 
16:53:00 <Robert> What are his books about?
16:53:24 <OrngeTide> scifi but kinda like scifi on a drug trip. stuff in them are a little surreal.
16:53:29 <Robert> Heh.
16:53:36 * Robert likes Jules Verne, too.
16:53:55 <OrngeTide> his writing skills are way beyond clarke. .. clarke can be a little dry.
16:54:10 <OrngeTide> i honestly have never read jules verne.
16:54:34 <Robert> You should. Some of them are really exciting.
16:54:56 <OrngeTide> hrm. i just might.
16:54:59 <Robert> :)
16:55:04 <Robert> btw, when did you get into Forth?
16:55:11 <OrngeTide> been trying to find a book to get into lately. i'm really sick of TV. it's so crappy.
16:55:24 <OrngeTide> my HP48 calculator back in highschool.
16:55:39 <OrngeTide> but i didn't get really into it until maybe a year and a half ago.
16:56:09 <OrngeTide> well actually no. i was always somewhat into it cuz i remember writing a forth on my laptop back in highschool too.
16:56:18 <Robert> The things they broadcast on TV is there to attract the stupid mob, to make them able to sell more advertisement time.
16:56:22 <Robert> No wonder it sucks.
16:56:41 <Robert> I just got into it latley.
16:56:45 <Robert> Few months ago.
16:56:56 <Robert> Trying to combine Forth and Microcontrollers now.
16:57:09 <Robert> (Something I got into even later than Forth)
16:57:18 <Robert> I feel retarded when talking to you :)
16:58:27 <OrngeTide> ehhehe.
16:58:30 <OrngeTide> i love microcontrollers.
16:58:41 <OrngeTide> what micro are you into these days?
16:58:50 <Robert> You've been into electronics since you were 4?
16:58:54 <OrngeTide> nah.
16:59:01 <OrngeTide> i got into it in highschool.
16:59:06 <Robert> Hehe.
16:59:11 <Robert> AVR.
16:59:21 <OrngeTide> i'm not very good at the analog stuff. but i'm pretty goot with digital.
16:59:24 <OrngeTide> ATMEL! wooot:)
16:59:37 <OrngeTide> harvard architecture. those are good.
17:00:21 <Robert> AVRs are just so much better than the PICs.
17:00:37 <OrngeTide> yah. i have some Scenix/Ubicom PIC-likes. they are pretty braindead.
17:00:49 <OrngeTide> they are dirt cheap and fast though. but i think the AVR is better.
17:00:57 <Robert> Hmm.
17:00:59 <Robert> How cheap?
17:01:10 <OrngeTide> <$2 for 50Mhz 18pin DIP
17:01:20 <Robert> That's quite OK.
17:01:30 <Robert> AVRs aren't much more expensive.
17:02:07 <Robert> And Atmel's 8051 ucs are even cheaper.
17:02:13 <OrngeTide> although for $1.75 you can get a 40pin Z80. i sorta miss having an external bus on a lot of these embedded MCUs
17:02:28 <OrngeTide> yah. but AVR kicks butt over 8051. i really don't like programming for 8051 either.
17:02:57 <OrngeTide> what i want is to get my hands on some mitsubishi 7700s. they are 16-bit microcontrollers.
17:03:06 <Robert> Neat.
17:03:13 <Robert> I'd like getting into constructing z80 systems.
17:03:31 <Robert> Problem is I don't have a clue where to start.
17:03:40 <OrngeTide> and you can either run them on internal memory and registers and have lots of port I/O pins. or flip a bit and those I/O pins become a 24bit address and 16bit data bus!
17:03:47 <OrngeTide> address 16Mb RAM:)
17:04:12 <OrngeTide> robert, i'm trying to make a Z80 "kit" ... although if i can get some 7700s i'll just use those instead cuz they are so much cooler.
17:04:30 <Robert> Hm..
17:04:40 <OrngeTide> my problem is that i can't decide what people would rather have. serial interface, LCD display or TV-out.
17:05:00 <OrngeTide> i think i'd rather make it like a kit computer and have TV-out. but then i think maybe i could have an LCD and make it like a z80 Palm Pilot.
17:05:05 <Robert> I'm thinking about using an old matrix printer.
17:05:10 <OrngeTide> but if i did serial then it'd be like a microcontroller.
17:05:17 <OrngeTide> hrm. teletype computer? :P
17:05:22 <Robert> Exactly.
17:05:32 <Robert> A radio modem would taste good, too.
17:05:44 <OrngeTide> i might have some 56K DIP modems in my junk box from my last job. that'd be fun.
17:05:59 <Robert> DIP modems?
17:07:03 <OrngeTide> yah. it's a 56K modem that fits into a DIP socket. it looks like a 16550 uart but you plug a phone jack to 2 of the pins instead. it handles all the analog stuff for you. just do "ATDT1234" and you can dial numbers.
17:07:18 <Robert> Heh, nice.
17:07:37 <Robert> Aren't telephones working with quite high voltages?
17:07:47 <OrngeTide> if i had one of those on my Z80 computer that would be fun. i could remotely dial up my z80 and just stuff it someplace far away.
17:07:57 <OrngeTide> robert, yup. it does all the voltage conversion for you.
17:08:02 <Robert> Nice.
17:08:17 <OrngeTide> you need 0 external components. it's really a tiny PCB with transforms and stuff put onto it and DIP-style pins soldered to each side. kinda like those basic stamps
17:08:22 <Robert> Darn, I'd very much like to know about how to make a z80 system.
17:08:37 <Robert> Oh.
17:08:45 <Robert> I thought it was an IC.
17:08:50 <OrngeTide> robert, there are a bunch of webpages on it. some guy even made a ZX Spectrum out of standard parts. the entire video controller is made from 74LS chips
17:08:59 <Robert> Hehe.
17:09:12 <Robert> btw, do you recommend LS over the other variants?
17:09:14 <OrngeTide> it's got SMT ICs on it. but it still has a transformer and stuff. but it's DIP-sized.
17:09:20 <OrngeTide> Robert, depends on what you are doing.
17:09:35 <OrngeTide> LS is almost always the least expensive.
17:09:36 <Robert> Various experiments ;)
17:09:46 <OrngeTide> and they are durable. :)
17:09:53 <Robert> Yay.
17:09:56 <Robert> What's the catch=
17:10:02 <Robert> s/=/?/
17:10:03 <OrngeTide> but if you want highspeed and/or a large voltage range then CMOS might be the way to go.
17:10:13 <OrngeTide> you can't possibly drive an LS chip beyond 33Mhz.
17:10:17 <Robert> Okay. Thanks.
17:10:30 <OrngeTide> and LS need a nice steady +5VDC
17:10:49 <OrngeTide> LS == Low-power Schotkey (i mispell his name)
17:11:07 <Robert> :)
17:11:14 <OrngeTide> FS = fast schotkey (which is also sometimes just S but it's still fast)
17:11:25 <OrngeTide> FS can go a tad faster than LS.
17:11:37 <OrngeTide> there is non LS which is still pretty common. that is slow and draws lots of power. :)
17:11:55 <OrngeTide> but mostly people only buy those as replacement parts.
17:12:15 <Robert> What kind of Flash ROM/RAM should you use for a z80 system?
17:12:37 <OrngeTide> if you don't want LS I'd recommend HSC (high-speed CMOS) which is the same speed as LS but it's got the coolness of CMOS.
17:12:44 <OrngeTide> robert, whatever is cheapest.
17:12:55 <Robert> Hehe.
17:13:02 <OrngeTide> if you want to execute out of it make sure you pick something that is 8bit wide and addressable.
17:13:10 <OrngeTide> don't want serial eeprom for example.
17:13:47 <Robert> Well, would e.g. 29F0x0 series Flash ROM do?
17:14:03 <Robert> How could BOTH a Flash ROM and a SRAM memory be used?
17:14:07 <OrngeTide> if you use eeprom it might be too slow to read directly out of so you might have to change what order you hit the address lines and do a chip select.
17:14:39 <OrngeTide> robert, you'd use the CS lines and just map flash for the upper half of memory and SRAM for the lower half.
17:14:48 <OrngeTide> also with a Z80 it has a built-in DRAM refresh so you can use DRAM if you want.
17:15:00 <Robert> Oh, nice.
17:15:18 <OrngeTide> assuming you get a standard Z80. the new "embedded" Z80s are SRAM only. 
17:15:27 <Robert> Well, I think I'll play with microcontrollers first.
17:15:33 <OrngeTide> the embedded z80s are really expensive. but they usually have the serial and parallel IO chips built-in
17:15:54 <OrngeTide> AVR can be fun. you should use that until your ideas grow beyond what it can do.
17:16:13 <Robert> I'm working on a simple VM for one, so I can at least execute code from RAM.
17:16:45 <Robert> By the way, where are you from?
17:16:46 <OrngeTide> yah. i wanted to make my Scenix execute a VM out of RAM.
17:17:05 <Robert> Hah. Good luck ;)
17:17:06 <OrngeTide> but doing RAM I/O on those is really slow cuz you have to twiddle bits by hand.
17:17:12 <OrngeTide> i'm in san jose, california.
17:17:20 <Robert> Oh, neat...
17:17:24 <OrngeTide> you?
17:17:32 <Robert> Hmmm... where is it located?
17:17:41 <Robert> North, south? Neat what cities?
17:17:43 <OrngeTide> yes. unless you forgot. :P
17:17:52 <OrngeTide> just a general area is fine. :P
17:18:10 <Robert> Near Stockholm.
17:18:24 <OrngeTide> oh. cool. 
17:18:28 <Robert> 02:21 < Robert> Hmmm... where is it located?
17:18:28 <Robert> 02:21 < Robert> North, south? Neat what cities?
17:18:35 <Robert> That was questions about San Jose, btw.
17:18:35 <OrngeTide> has it started snowing there yet? .. it's pouring rain over here.
17:18:41 <OrngeTide> ohhh.. me.
17:18:51 <OrngeTide> san jose is just south of san francisco.
17:18:53 <Robert> We haven't had any snow yet.
17:18:58 <OrngeTide> san jose is like the tech center of the world.
17:19:03 <Robert> :)
17:19:08 <OrngeTide> my parents got snow over in michigan.
17:19:26 <Robert> I think I passed by San Jose when I was in the states.
17:19:31 <OrngeTide> name an american tech company and I can probably tell you how far of a walk to their office it would be.
17:19:39 <Robert> Hehe.
17:19:57 <Robert> Atmel? :)
17:20:09 <OrngeTide> i worked accrossed the street from Apple world head quarters at my last job. now i'm accrossed the street from the massive Cisco campus.
17:20:22 <OrngeTide> Robert, atmel is about a 3 minute drive from my work.
17:20:45 <Robert> Neat.
17:20:52 <OrngeTide> Nvidia is about a 4 minute drive.
17:20:56 <OrngeTide> i applied there :)
17:21:04 <OrngeTide> but they couldn't pay me what i asked.
17:21:09 <Robert> Where are you working now?
17:21:09 <Robert> Heh.
17:21:13 <Robert> What did they want to pay you?
17:21:25 <OrngeTide> i'm working at a no-name place. we make a giant embedded fileserver (NAS/SAN)
17:21:43 <OrngeTide> they didn't say. they just said $115k/yr was more than they wanted.
17:22:04 <Robert> Haha.
17:22:10 <Robert> Well, that's asking a little bit much.
17:22:19 <OrngeTide> i suspect they pay about $85k/yr - $95k/yr
17:22:24 <OrngeTide> Robert, nah.
17:22:27 <Robert> I'd have thrown you out in no time.
17:22:34 <OrngeTide> a house here costs $350k minimum.
17:22:49 <Robert> Yuck.
17:22:50 <OrngeTide> Nvidia doesn't pay as much as most other companies around here.
17:23:17 <OrngeTide> i used to pay $1300/mo for rent of a 1bd apartment. back where i used to live it would be $350/mo for a bigger apartment.
17:23:30 <OrngeTide> i got my rent down to $1100/mo though. i'm so pleased with myself.
17:23:37 <Robert> My parents make less than $60k/year together.
17:23:52 <OrngeTide> Robert, that's about what my parents make.
17:23:58 <Robert> Heh.
17:24:29 <OrngeTide> i'm not sure if my dad is jealous or happy for me. i make a lot more than he does and i didn't even graduate from college.
17:25:13 <Robert> I didn't think there could be such HUGE differencies between people.
17:25:40 <OrngeTide> there is in the US and a few other countries.
17:25:49 <Robert> On the other hand, in a country where "The Communists" have been the great enemy for 50 years, what could you expect? :)
17:25:52 <Robert> Yes, I know.
17:25:56 <OrngeTide> but cost of living is dramatically different in different areas too.
17:26:02 <Robert> Yeah.
17:26:16 * OrngeTide is anti-communist and anti-socialist.
17:26:22 <OrngeTide> i don't even like democrats. :P
17:26:41 <Robert> You're a christian republican and KKK member? :P
17:26:47 <OrngeTide> noooo. :P
17:26:49 <Robert> A friend moved from Ukraine to Finland, where he makes 10 times as much money, and everything costs 10 times as much.
17:26:53 <Robert> Liar.
17:26:53 <OrngeTide> i don't like christians. i think they are ignorant.
17:27:03 <Robert> Hehe, agreed.
17:27:07 <OrngeTide> and republicans are full of shit. but they are better than democrats:P
17:27:37 <Robert> Well... the full of shit part might as well be true.
17:27:48 <OrngeTide> christans have a made up religion. and then they used it as an excuse to murder millions of indigionous people. 
17:28:16 <OrngeTide> well republicans are obviously full of shit. but democrats are liars.
17:28:26 <Robert> "Our fear that Communism might take over the world, blinds us to the fact that anti-communism already did." :D
17:28:32 <Robert> Oh..
17:28:34 <OrngeTide> eehehe.
17:28:39 <Robert> And replublicans aren't? :P
17:28:44 * Robert pokes Nixon & co.
17:28:52 <OrngeTide> yes. but they don't believe their own lies usually.
17:29:05 <OrngeTide> and they usually lie to cover thier own ass.
17:29:10 <OrngeTide> rather than lie to screw you over.
17:29:15 <Robert> Heh.
17:29:25 <Robert> I don't see how that could be BETTER :)
17:29:45 <OrngeTide> think about it. 9 of the wealthest politicans are democrats. but aren't democrats supposed to be for the "working man" and be progressive and almost socialistic?
17:29:56 <Robert> As far as I'm concerned, the US is a two-party state, where you can vote right or more right. ;)
17:30:06 <OrngeTide> robert, so true.
17:30:23 <Robert> Haha.. "almost socialistic", that one was good.
17:30:28 <OrngeTide> i voted libertarian almost all the way. i don't really agree with libertarians i just want to get them elected 
17:30:53 <Robert> Hehe.
17:31:19 <Robert> They'd better start their own War On [insert-somthing] then.
17:31:28 <OrngeTide> democrats like to start these little things to help the poor. welfare and stuff. what you don't find out is that half the time they just steal the money they allocated for these services. i'm like "what the hell. so i pay more taxes and still dont get service?"
17:31:29 <Robert> To get some attention, then.
17:31:37 <OrngeTide> war on democrats! :P
17:31:48 <Robert> Heh.
17:32:02 <OrngeTide> most democrats want to take away my guns too. so i don't like that. 
17:32:14 <OrngeTide> republicans are willing to let me keep my guns as long as it doesn't cost them any money.
17:32:25 <Robert> Raising the military budget and lowering the taxes does not seem like a very wise ting to do.
17:32:34 <Robert> Heh.
17:32:41 <Robert> Well, I don't think guns are any good ;)
17:32:46 <OrngeTide> robert, yah. you start to wonder where the money comes from
17:32:50 <OrngeTide> guns are great.
17:32:57 <OrngeTide> i don't shoot people though.
17:33:03 <Robert> That's good.
17:33:13 <Robert> But quite a few people do, heh.
17:33:26 <OrngeTide> i never had a reason to shoot someone and probably never will.
17:33:37 <OrngeTide> yah. the people that shoot people tend to be people that break the law.
17:33:49 <Robert> How odd.
17:33:54 <OrngeTide> so a law against guns isn't going to slow down someone who just breaks laws anyways.
17:33:57 <Robert> I thought shooting someone was breaking the law ;)
17:34:02 <OrngeTide> ehhehe. :)
17:34:04 <Robert> Uhm.
17:34:14 <Robert> Well, less guns == less people who shoot other people.
17:34:16 <Robert> That's quite simple.
17:34:19 <OrngeTide> less legal guns.
17:34:26 <OrngeTide> the guns people commit crimes with aren't even legal guns.
17:34:29 <OrngeTide> where did they come from?
17:34:39 <OrngeTide> probably in the crate under the one full of cocaine.
17:34:39 <Robert> _And_ less illegal guns, unless you sell the police.
17:35:09 <Robert> Hmm..
17:35:12 <OrngeTide> if you're walking around with an Uzi in downtown you definetnly did not purchase it legally.
17:35:24 <Robert> Compare the gun voilence in Sweden and the US.
17:35:34 <OrngeTide> i think swedes are less violent.
17:35:47 <OrngeTide> americans will attack each other with knives if they don't have guns.
17:35:47 <Robert> Why?
17:36:01 <OrngeTide> it's probably the flouride in our drinking water. who knows.
17:36:14 <OrngeTide> or maybe cause our country was founded by prisoners and religious fanataics?
17:36:40 <Robert> Most people here are atheist, thank God.
17:37:05 <Robert> Look at the theories about unjustice societies vs. criminality.
17:37:09 <OrngeTide> and propbably generally more intellegent.
17:37:25 <OrngeTide> there are lots of intellegent people in the US. but there are also lots of very ignorant people.
17:37:34 <Robert> We have fewer TV channels ;-)
17:37:41 <Robert> I bet there are...
17:37:47 <OrngeTide> ehehhe.. that might be it.
17:37:54 <Robert> But, if they're in minority, you're in deep trouble anyway.
17:38:06 <OrngeTide> ignorant people multiply faster.
17:38:34 <Robert> Intelligent people don't get girlfriends :P
17:38:55 <OrngeTide> anyways i enjoy my gun. i can go to the shooting range and practice target shooting. it's very good way to unwind after a long stressful day at work.
17:39:12 <Robert> I shoot people in Duke Nukem 3D!
17:39:18 <OrngeTide> intelligent people get intellegent girlfriends usually. they just overlook how to find where all the intelligent women hang out.
17:39:27 <OrngeTide> my gf's IQ is higher than mine.
17:39:29 * Robert is just provocing people with comments like that.
17:39:35 <OrngeTide> robert, UGH. i can't stand sitting at the computer anymore.
17:39:40 <Robert> I haven't measured my IQ.
17:39:47 <OrngeTide> i need to go outside. walk around. do something else.
17:39:56 <Robert> I probably wouldn't like the result anyway ;)
17:40:00 <OrngeTide> ehehe.
17:40:14 <Robert> I'm only good at math and programming.
17:40:19 <Robert> And a few other things.
17:40:20 <OrngeTide> i wonder if my IQ has changed since I did all those drugs in highschool?
17:40:26 <Robert> Heh.
17:40:27 <OrngeTide> i'm horrible at math.
17:40:37 <Robert> I haven't taken any drugs.
17:40:41 <OrngeTide> i only can do math when it's absolutely necessary. 
17:40:46 <OrngeTide> good. drugs are bad.
17:40:48 <Robert> Maybe small amounts of caffeine in my tea.
17:40:59 <Robert> That's it.
17:41:01 <OrngeTide> and drugs cost too much.
17:41:31 <OrngeTide> robert, mmm.. tea.
17:41:36 <Robert> :)
17:41:45 <OrngeTide> i went nuts and bought soo much tea at the asian market recently.
17:41:54 <Robert> Heh.
17:42:10 <OrngeTide> and i bought this cool tea pot with a built-in screen (cuz i only drink loose-leaf tea). and it's so cute and tiny it makes like 2 cups of tea is all
17:42:32 * Robert makes one cup at the time.
17:42:33 <Robert> But not often.
17:42:42 <OrngeTide> i make one for me and one for my gf:)
17:42:53 <OrngeTide> the pot cost me like $3 hehehe.
17:43:03 <OrngeTide> stuff at the asian store is kinda scary how cheap it is.
17:43:12 <Robert> I've never had any girlfriend, and I wouldn't be suprised if I'll be able to say the same in 50 years :)
17:43:25 <OrngeTide> like i buy chicken there for like half the normal price. i have to cut the head and feet off myself. that kinda grosses my gf out.
17:43:35 <Robert> Nasty.
17:43:47 <OrngeTide> robert, i never had a gf until i was 22.
17:43:52 <Robert> Yay.
17:44:03 <OrngeTide> not for a lack of trying through.
17:44:42 <Robert> I haven't talked to a girl (outside school) in...er...10 years, unless you count family.
17:45:09 <OrngeTide> i had a lot of girls in school who were just "friends" with me.
17:45:36 <Robert> You had friends in school? :)
17:45:42 <OrngeTide> eventually.
17:46:05 <OrngeTide> not until highschool though. i had no friends in middleschool cuz everyone was mean to everyone else and it sucked.
17:47:14 <OrngeTide> it helps if you have some sort of activity that you do that you might meet women doing.
17:47:25 <OrngeTide> like i met girls by playing AD&D .. very geeky sexy girls:)
17:47:34 <OrngeTide> i met my gf on IRC in a programming channel:)
17:47:44 <OrngeTide> we've been living together for like 2 years now.
17:47:51 <Robert> I made an electrolysis with NaCl in water, and Cu and Sn electrodes. H2 was produced, so was something white floating in the water, what might that be?
17:47:53 <Robert> Hah.
17:48:05 <OrngeTide> hrm... 
17:48:08 <Robert> I only know one programmer at my school, and he's a newbie.
17:48:18 <Robert> No female programmers from Sweden.
17:48:18 <OrngeTide> probably some salt of Sn
17:48:33 <OrngeTide> most of the female programmers I work with are non-american.
17:48:37 <Robert> Well, it came from the Cu electrode.
17:48:45 <OrngeTide> hrm.. maybe a Cu salt. no idea really.
17:48:48 <Robert> CuCl2?
17:48:52 <Robert> Okay...
17:49:18 <OrngeTide> i'd have to rack my brain and remember my chemsitry courses from college.
17:49:22 <Robert> Activities? Heh...
17:49:41 <OrngeTide> I just use C electrodes cuz they won't react.
17:50:00 <OrngeTide> yah. like after school basket weaving. :P
17:50:01 <Robert> I did that, too. But I don't want too much Chloride in my room.
17:50:07 <Robert> Heh.
17:50:13 <Robert> Sports? Pff...
17:50:18 <OrngeTide> well i didn't use must NaCl
17:50:26 <Robert> That's no fun.
17:50:34 <Robert> Programming is. And talking.
17:50:39 <Robert> And reading.
17:50:46 <Robert> And ranting about doing it.
17:50:56 <OrngeTide> i was anti-sport. but then my school forced me to get a PE credit. either take stupid PE Class which was totally horrible. or I could take a sport. I took tennis and it was really fun.
17:51:11 <OrngeTide> lots of geeks on the tennis team. including that girl i met playing AD&D
17:51:24 <Robert> I like badminton.
17:51:30 <OrngeTide> and all my classmates from Physics took tennis too.
17:51:37 <OrngeTide> badminton has less strategy.
17:51:51 <OrngeTide> tennis is like all strategy. although you can make up for your lack of strategy by being quick on your feet.
17:51:54 <Robert> Maybe that's what makes it fun :)
17:52:10 <OrngeTide> ehhehe.
17:52:20 <Robert> Sports of for amusement.
17:52:26 <Robert> is for*
17:52:33 <OrngeTide> tennis is amusing. :P
17:52:40 <Robert> It should be brain-dead.
17:52:41 <OrngeTide> i only like playing doubles tennis though.
17:52:48 <OrngeTide> like TV?
17:52:49 <Robert> (So they can broadcast it on TV!)
17:52:53 <OrngeTide> ahaha.
17:52:54 <Robert> Heh.
17:52:59 <Robert> Exactly.
17:54:19 <OrngeTide> i like tennis because there really isn't any body type that has a significant advantage. you can be short or tall or whatever. as long as you don't have a heart condition.
17:54:49 <OrngeTide> sports like football, soccor, track and hockey are all unfair.
17:54:54 <Robert> I like playing doble in badminton, since I'm left-handed. That always causes collisions.
17:55:02 <OrngeTide> i'm a lefty too:)
17:55:14 <Robert> Yay.
17:55:19 <OrngeTide> but i play tennis with either hand just to confuse people.
17:55:39 <Robert> Hehe. Same with me in badminton, except they don't get confused.
17:56:21 <OrngeTide> like if someone is able to pick up my backhand pretty easilly they'll try to serve on the otherside of me so i'll be more likely to give them easy stuff. but then i'll just switch hands if they do that.
17:57:13 <OrngeTide> although i was never good at tennis so i'm not sure if that was really helpful or not. :P
17:57:37 --- join: proteusguy (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth
17:57:41 <Robert> Hehe.
17:57:43 <Robert> Hi proteusguy.
17:57:45 <OrngeTide> well i gotta go. been nice talking to ya. have fun with that AVR :)
17:57:51 <Robert> OK, see you!
17:58:25 <proteusguy> Hey Robert... doin more on the AtMel? Figure out your RAM question?
17:58:37 <Robert> About SRAM?
17:58:45 <proteusguy> yep.
17:58:45 <Robert> How to attach external SRAM?
17:58:53 <Robert> Not quite.
17:58:59 <proteusguy> That's what you were asking about the other day...
17:59:07 <Robert> I don't see any data I/O pins.. just addressing.
17:59:14 <Robert> Yeah.
17:59:44 <proteusguy> hmm... I'll have to ask a hardware friend of mine. He's familiar with these and does a lot of microcontroller work.
18:00:01 <Robert> Nice :)
18:17:28 <proteusguy> I just sent him an email. We'll see what he says.
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18:19:48 <Robert> Thanks.
18:20:03 <Robert> When I did electrolysis of NaCl in water, with a cupper cathode (?), there came H2 from it, and some white, solid thing in the water.
18:20:14 <Robert> What could that be?
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18:58:13 <neobrat> hello
18:59:21 <Robert> Hi.
18:59:54 <neobrat> anything interesting going on? or rather quiet?
19:00:19 <Robert> Not much,
19:00:26 <Robert> Getting late here, I'm going to bed.
19:00:48 <neobrat> well, then maybe tomorrow -- cya
19:00:53 * neobrat waves
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19:07:37 <pyromania> :)
19:18:31 --- nick: pyromania -> Grant
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21:29:58 <thin> robert: salt ?
21:30:19 <thin> robert:  was it blueish or just white?
21:35:05 <thin> if it was some sort of cu salt (which i doubt) it would be blueish
21:35:43 <Herkamire> what on earth are you talking about?
21:35:55 <thin> <Robert> When I did electrolysis of NaCl in water, with a cupper cathode (?), there came H2 from it, and some white, solid thing in the water.
21:35:55 <thin> <Robert> What could that be?
21:45:15 <OrngeTide> hrm.
21:49:24 * OrngeTide yawns.
21:49:36 <thin> hey orngetide :)
21:49:41 <thin> tell me a little bit about your graphical mud
21:49:42 <thin> :)
21:51:48 <OrngeTide> oh. hrm.
21:52:13 <OrngeTide> it's object oriented. not like how C++ or ObjC do it, kinda my own what. cuz it's easier to manage.
21:54:24 <Herkamire> how graphical?
21:54:26 <Herkamire> like nethack?
21:55:19 <Herkamire> like FF7?
21:57:12 <OrngeTide> hrm.. like FF3 
21:57:54 <OrngeTide> the game play is more like Zelda than anything. but it has lots of quirky details and fancy inventories like nethack. (see Egoboo it's like that but it's 3D opengl. very cute open source game)
21:58:31 <OrngeTide> my focus is mainly on making an easy to admin server. cuz I've ran CircleMUD and LambdaMOO before and had troubles admining. (actually i liked lambdamoo)
21:59:38 <OrngeTide> okay. i'm back now. my gf has been harassing me to make her a mailing list for her hardcore text MUD. :P
22:00:24 <Herkamire> so it's realtime stear your guy around like zelda?
22:01:48 <Herkamire> ahh, I've seen screenshots for egoboo, but it didn't work on my computer.
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22:17:19 <OrngeTide> yah. realtime steer is a good description.
22:17:41 <OrngeTide> sorry. had to help my gf again. she likes to tweak everything. she's going through the mailing list software and changing every option and asking me what everyone of them does.
22:21:47 * OrngeTide hacks on his server some more.
22:28:38 <Herkamire> heh :) my gf doesn't like it w hen I talk about anything relating to computers
22:28:45 <Herkamire> goodnight
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.11.08