00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.11.07
00:01:34 <thin> WORDS ARE NOT FUNCTIONS!!!   ROBERT, GOOD LUCK ON THE EXAM!
00:03:21 --- quit: thin ("bedtime")
00:36:58 <Robert> Heh.
00:37:28 <Robert> thin: In case you're checking the logs, I didn't have any luck on the exam at all ;)
00:37:48 <Robert> Biology is boring.
00:37:50 <Robert> And useless.
00:37:51 <Robert> etc
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07:00:01 <Robert> Good afternoon, tathi & Herkamire.
07:04:15 <tathi> hey Rob
07:26:25 <Herkamire> mornin' :)
07:29:55 <Robert> Yes..."morning" :)
07:53:58 --- join: thin (thin@h68-146-166-145.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth
07:54:46 <thin> robert: but biology is simple memorization, and is surely a litle interesting
07:55:57 <thin> think of biochemistry! think of genetic hacking! think of the pimply teenager hacker, instead of hacking on the computer, he hacks with genes and builds little animals, like an orange furry t-rex that runs around growling ferociously and eats your marijuana!
07:56:21 <thin> think of the ability to change the color of your skin to chrome, or glow in the dark neon green!
07:57:38 <thin> the teenager hackers of the future will surely be hacking genes, not gay assed computers
07:58:55 <tathi> thin: you're just strange...
07:59:10 <thin> how so?
08:03:45 <thin> think of engineering a seed that you can throw into the ocean and a starship grows from the ocean and launches!
08:05:38 --- join: joonas (jpihlaja@kruuna.helsinki.fi) joined #forth
08:05:43 <thin> come on guys!!! genetic hacking is EZ!!
08:05:57 <joonas> hi all
08:05:59 <thin> and it's far cooler, far more useful, and far more futuristic than lame computers!
08:06:25 * thin has made an electrophoresis gel and extracted dna from onion !!
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08:10:34 <Robert> thin: Duh...
08:10:53 <Robert> thin: We're learning how mushrooms are breeding, and things like that. Not very exciting.
08:11:10 <thin> but that's useful if you want to grow your own 'shrooms
08:11:16 <Robert> thin: Besides, if it's not interesting, I won't memorize it.
08:11:22 <thin> you know, the magic mushrooms, the one that are hallucinogenic
08:11:55 <Robert> I know the mushrooms we have here, more than most do. I just don't want to memororize all the stupid stuff about where the spores are and so on.
08:12:07 <Robert> more than most people*
08:13:32 --- mode: ChanServ set +o thin
08:14:38 * Robert starts his Forth computer.
08:16:44 <joonas> robert: tell me about your forth computer
08:18:08 <Robert> Oh.. Don't take me too literaly. It's just a computer on which I only use IsForth.
09:20:44 <ianni> how would I do something like a linked list?
09:21:01 <ianni> hrm
09:21:13 <Robert> Check IsForth's examples, if you like.
09:21:20 <ianni> it has examples?
09:21:25 <Robert> But it's rather simlpe. Just do like in any other language.
09:21:26 <ianni> im reading it's source :)
09:21:29 <ianni> its 
09:21:30 <Robert> Yes, the help/ directory.
09:21:38 <ianni> I know, i just feel uncomfortable working or someting
09:21:43 <Robert> Check struct.f there.
09:21:43 <ianni> Oh, wow, ill check that out
09:22:14 <ianni> wow
09:22:19 <ianni> awesome
09:23:15 <Robert> I think he also added dynamic memory managment.
09:24:24 <ianni> \ just in case name is less than 16 bytes
09:24:26 <ianni> h
09:24:27 <ianni> hm
09:25:22 <Robert> Huh?
09:27:05 --- nick: thin -> thi
09:29:54 --- nick: thi -> thin
09:41:44 --- join: I440r (~mark4@sdn-ap-012tnnashP0353.dialsprint.net) joined #forth
09:41:50 <Robert> Hey :)
09:41:57 <I440r> hi
11:11:10 --- topic: set to 'Happy Birthday I440R! | IsForth: runs on linux, coded in x86 asm - http://isforth.clss.net | official forth sites: http://www.ultratechnology.com/forth.htm & http://www.colorforth.com' by thin
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11:11:47 <thin> hey divgrad
11:11:49 <thin> long time no see
11:11:50 <thin> :)
11:11:58 <divgrad> hi
11:12:07 <divgrad> me?
11:12:24 <divgrad> i mean there is news for me?
11:13:09 <thin> ?
11:13:15 <thin> i've seen you around before
11:13:19 <thin> that's all
11:13:54 <divgrad> okok
11:14:10 <thin> well i gtg, see ya later everyone
11:14:18 * thin goes into idle mode ;P
11:19:39 <ianni> if i want to dynamically store strings in a structure
11:19:52 <ianni> would i also have to store their lengths?
11:20:39 <joonas> I guess, unless you use C-style strings.
11:20:52 --- part: divgrad left #forth
11:21:23 <ianni> Isn't a c style string just a char * ?
11:21:27 <ianni> without length?
11:21:41 <ianni> oh, you mean terminate them with \0.
11:21:46 <ianni> gotcha
11:21:50 <joonas> yes.
11:22:17 <ianni> should i hesitate to use structs>
11:22:29 <ianni> I'm trying to learn to do stuff without them, but i dont understand how to relate things
11:22:44 <joonas> No?  I'm not sure what there is to hesitate about.
11:22:51 <joonas> What do you mean relate things?
11:23:02 <ianni> im just having problems
11:23:16 <ianni> well i didnt want to rely on them, i thought it would be a better learning experience if i worked without them
11:23:29 <ianni> im jsut a newbie trying to figure out what to do.. heh
11:23:49 <ianni> i think i need to be learning memory management
11:23:55 <tathi> ianni: what kind of program are you trying to write?
11:24:00 <joonas> Only in Forth and Nethack do players take volutary challenges like that. ;)
11:24:05 <ianni> tathi: that's the problem, i don't know
11:24:12 <ianni> but i want to learn forth! lol
11:24:41 <ianni> i dunno how you are supposed to help me there.. :)
11:24:42 <ianni> hehehe
11:24:46 <tathi> heh
11:24:49 <tathi> that is a problem
11:24:51 <ianni> just talking
11:24:55 <ianni> like an iodit
11:25:21 <tathi> I've pretty much given up learning new languages without a project that I want to write :)
11:25:33 <ianni> tathi yeah, same, but I want to learn low level stuff
11:25:54 <ianni> that's my goal, too broad... :P
11:29:04 <tathi> low level stuff as in dealing with hardware?
11:29:09 <tathi> or just general forthy stuff?
11:31:20 <ianni> the latter
11:31:30 <ianni> I want to write stuff that is *FAST*
11:31:35 <ianni> not just because of speed
11:31:38 <ianni> the philosophy of 4th
11:31:39 <ianni> is beautoful
11:31:42 <ianni> beautiful
11:31:57 <ianni> why have all those extra bytes if they mean nothing..
11:33:23 <joonas> ianni: do you know an assembler?  It sounds like you want to program in assembler.
11:33:51 <joonas> assembler -> assembly language
11:33:51 <ianni> joonas: No.
11:33:58 <ianni> I'm a high level wussy.
11:34:08 <ianni> and yeah, I've been thinking about assmebler too
11:34:19 <ianni> but forth looks more fun, as a high level programmer...
11:34:31 <ianni> asm is perhaps more useful for me to know, though
11:34:51 <ianni> I really am thinking about getting into prorgamming microchips/firmware type stuff though
11:34:56 <tathi> forth is more fun
11:34:59 <ianni> tathi: I agree
11:35:05 <tathi> forth + asm is the best though
11:35:09 <Robert> I440r: Birthday today?
11:35:11 <ianni> tathi: yaeh, it really sems that way
11:35:22 <ianni> so anyone recommend I should be doing some ASM now?
11:35:23 <tathi> all the power of forth, and you have absolute control in case you need it :)
11:35:26 <ianni> I know basic forth
11:35:32 <ianni> and C
11:35:35 <ianni> but no ASM
11:35:56 <ianni> i get the concept of registers and such.. yeah, i think tis time i start assembler
11:36:08 <ianni> someone told me to use gas, and not nasm...
11:36:20 <Robert> Probably the devil.
11:36:23 <ianni> that was I440r.
11:36:27 <tathi> :)
11:36:31 <ianni> :)
11:36:32 <ianni> ehehehe
11:36:33 <Robert> He's using NASM for IsForth.
11:36:36 <ianni> Yeah
11:37:01 <Robert> gas is made for gcc. Not humans.
11:37:03 <tathi> as is designed to be the backend for gcc, so it's minimal, badly documented, etc.
11:37:11 <Robert> Exactly.
11:37:12 <ianni> i see
11:37:14 <tathi> on the other hand, I get the impression nasm is rather buggy
11:37:44 <tathi> and...I'm running Linux on PPC, so as is my only choice AFAIK
11:37:47 <Robert> They've fixed some things latley, I haven't found any bugs in the Linux version.
11:38:15 <tathi> so I can say that it is possible to live with, but I wouldn't recommend learning on it
11:38:28 <Robert> Get another CPU instead ;)
11:38:38 * Robert hands ianni a Forth chip.
11:39:33 <tathi> Robert: I figure I'd rather put up with a bad assembler than a bad architecture :)
11:39:52 <Robert> "put up"?
11:40:30 <tathi> suffer under the tyrannical rule of? :P
11:40:33 <Robert> Hmm.. I refered to x86 (for ianni), not your PPC, never used any.
11:40:59 <Robert> Well, what bad architecture did you refer to?
11:41:10 <ianni> I'm on x86 doing isforth, but I use ppc machines a lot.
11:41:28 <ianni> I'm on a ppc machien now, but this box im on irc/isforth is redhat on x86.
11:41:38 <tathi> Robert: x86
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11:42:11 <tathi> which isn't actually _that_ bad, I just like how clean PPC is.
11:42:19 <ianni> so how do you guys interface with the network card on a forht only machine
11:42:26 <ianni> i cant imagine how to go about that without system calls
11:42:38 <ianni> is it really so simple to do in forth?
11:42:51 <onetom> hi
11:42:56 <onetom> hi, ianni 
11:42:57 <tathi> ianni: dunno, I haven't gotten that far...I keep wasting my time tinkering with my forth engine :)
11:43:01 <tathi> hey onetom
11:43:18 <ianni> onteom!
11:43:21 <ianni> onetom! rather
11:43:21 <onetom> whats up w the structures? have u managed 2 eliminate them? ;)
11:43:27 <ianni> onetom no
11:43:31 <ianni> I can't get anywhere!
11:43:31 <Robert> tathi: I think modern x86 chips are a little bit too bloated. I mean, it's like the Linux kernel webserver project :)
11:43:33 <ianni> hehe
11:43:35 <ianni> i dont know how to even start
11:43:37 <onetom> tathi: how is ur 4th goin?
11:43:48 <Robert> What Forth is tathi working with?
11:43:52 <ianni> i have been thinkign about the elevator
11:44:11 <onetom> ianni: ive decided 2 start designin a solution 4 u but i fall asleep ;)
11:44:14 <ianni> i know i can keep the current floor/story # in one variable 
11:44:15 <tathi> Robert: heh, I was just the other day thinking of rebuilding my kernel with khttpd (and getting rid of apache)
11:44:18 <ianni> onetom - hehe!
11:44:23 <ianni> but beyond that
11:44:27 <Robert> tathi: ;)
11:44:31 <ianni> trying to implement people "requesting" elevators and such
11:44:36 <ianni> i have no idea even how to go about starting to code that
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11:44:47 <Robert> tathi: Well, the question is if you want things like that in your CPU.
11:44:49 <Robert> ree: Hello.
11:44:52 <ianni> I was thinking maybe linked lists of elevator requests and all this crap
11:44:52 <ree> hey robert
11:44:59 <ianni> which is pretty much opposite to what I am trying to learn here
11:45:04 <ree> tathi = designing cpu? :)
11:45:08 <onetom> but it wasnt becasue of the problem but because of the prev 2weeks, when i slept very little
11:45:10 <ree> tathi, can I get one in blue??
11:45:16 <tathi> no, I definitely don't want stuff like that in my CPU...which is why I switched from x86 to PPC
11:45:29 <tathi> :)
11:45:44 <onetom> ianni: linked list... ahha... thats 1 of the major design problems.. :/
11:45:51 <ree> I want everything they can throw into a CPU
11:45:53 <Robert> tathi: Do you have a copy of your Forth on the web somewhere?
11:45:55 <ree> give me it all
11:46:06 <Robert> tathi: /me'd like to try.
11:46:17 <Robert> ree: Pff..
11:46:19 <onetom> ianni: its a general solution. but very ?sparse?
11:46:20 <ree> even if I need a liquid nitrogen to keep it cool
11:46:24 <tathi> Robert: it's written in PPC assembly language...
11:46:25 <ree> -a
11:46:30 <Robert> tathi: Oh :-/
11:46:47 <ianni> onetom... yeah, a bit too general maybe?
11:46:52 <ree> so this is where all your conversation goes robert
11:47:06 <Robert> Hum?
11:47:10 <ianni> onetom: I mean, I am so used to using queues (dynamic arrays) and such
11:47:11 <ree> robert has sprung a leak in his conversation tub 
11:47:16 <onetom> ianni: try 2 solve the specific problem, that is adapt the solution 2 the real constraint of the problem & make benefit of them
11:47:21 <ree> it's leaking into #forth 
11:47:22 <ianni> I guess I could allocate a buffer and only support N concurrent requests
11:47:30 <ianni> onetom: *nods*
11:47:36 <onetom> ianni: this way ur code gonna b (should b) much smaller
11:47:46 <ree> so I'm wondering if anyone has done any gui coding with forth
11:47:48 <tathi> Robert: when I get it booting with a network terminal I'll let you try it :)
11:47:51 <ianni> onetom, definitely seems the 4th way
11:47:56 <Robert> Hehe ;)
11:47:58 <onetom> ianni: than in the general solutions case
11:48:32 <onetom> ianni: so it wont b hard 2 rewrite the whole, when needs r changing
11:48:33 <ree> has chuck even done gui coding with forth?
11:48:43 <ianni> onetom yeh
11:48:49 <onetom> ree: just a very little, i think
11:49:10 <ree> yeah
11:49:14 <onetom> ianni: im serious! dont b afraid 2 rewrite code! it works
11:49:21 <ree> I guess he'd have to have better vision to warrant it
11:49:36 <ree> ok, so does anyone know of any other tiny languages that are great for gui coding
11:49:39 <tathi> definitely. If you're doing any size of a project, plan to rewrite it about 3 times.
11:49:53 <onetom> ree: uknow, 1 of his base guidelines is 2 simplfy the problem instead of solvin it directly
11:50:11 <ree> or if you're doing a large size project plan to rewrite it about 53 times 
11:50:16 <Robert> ree: Assembly. :)
11:50:36 --- topic: set to 'I440r's lame assed birthday coming up Nov. 11| IsForth: runs on linux, coded in x86 asm - http://isforth.clss.net | official forth sites: http://www.ultratechnology.com/forth.htm & http://www.colorforth.com' by thin
11:50:42 <onetom> ree: assembly (of a 4th processor ;)
11:50:56 <ree> onetom, yeah, you wouldn't want to solve the problem in the most efficient time would you? :)
11:51:24 <ree> thin, give him his present
11:51:28 <ree> thin, port isforth to windows 
11:51:34 <ree> >]
11:51:35 <onetom> ree: eeeer.. i think u miss the point :/
11:51:35 <ianni> haha
11:51:52 <ree> onetom, nah, I just said that to make you mad
11:52:06 <onetom> ree: if u want a program it doesnt really need _all_ the stnd gui controls
11:52:14 <ree> I already know why chuck did forth
11:52:28 <ree> I don't mean that kind of gui programming
11:52:35 <ree> I mean actual gui coding
11:52:38 <onetom> ree: but needs some special 1s what r not obvious some times how 2 derive from the stnd 1s
11:52:38 <ree> graphical interface 
11:52:46 <ree> not application programming for guis
11:53:10 <ree> heh, you not only program more efficiently you try to type more efficiently too
11:53:18 <onetom> ree: so finally its not slower 2 write all of the controls u need, instead of using (& learn using) stnd 1s
11:53:18 <I440r> ree! not seen you in here in ages :)
11:53:21 <ree> but that gets on my nerves :)
11:53:25 <ree> hey i440r :)
11:53:41 <onetom> ree: yeah, i try ;)
11:53:42 <Robert> I440r: Happy birthday(?) !
11:53:53 <I440r> :P on the 11th :P
11:53:59 <Robert> Getting a big boy, eh?
11:54:00 <ree> it takes longer time to prse wrds tht do nt exst 
11:54:12 <ree> dn't u agre?
11:54:13 <onetom> ree: every1 has already managed 2 get past this nervous state here
11:54:19 <onetom> ree: u also will
11:54:23 <ree> nervous?
11:54:40 <ree> haha
11:54:42 <onetom> :)
11:54:45 <ree> i440r is getting a big boy for his birthday
11:54:47 <ree> :)
11:54:53 <ianni> lol
11:54:55 <onetom> not, nervous of course
11:54:56 <Robert> Heh :P
11:55:00 <ree> please don't turn that joke on to me :)
11:55:07 <onetom> it just rhymed 2 nerves
11:55:24 <ree> onetom, remove yourself from irc for a few years bud
11:55:29 <ree> you've adapted way too much
11:55:50 <ree> so have I though... I type in short sentences and I finish them 
11:55:52 <ree> with each 
11:55:53 <ree> new line
11:56:01 <ree> it's really
11:56:01 <ree> sad
11:56:36 <ianni> hehe
11:56:37 <I440r> lol
11:57:14 <ree> I wonder if I could brainfuck a gui
11:57:25 <ree> ++++----->>>><-+++//
11:57:31 <I440r> lol only a sick bastard would even want to try :)
11:57:32 <onetom> ree: i develop through irc & i also live w me private life w me girlfriends through icq, plz tell me more about advantages & disadvantages of expression styles... ;p
11:57:39 <I440r> i gotta add a BF compiler to isforth :)
11:57:39 <ree> there is also compressed brainfuck
11:57:54 <ree> above would be Z%^!@#$$%
11:58:06 <I440r> : brain ++++------>>><-+++// ;
11:58:07 <I440r> heh
11:58:12 <Robert>  I440r Heh, useful >:)
11:58:38 <ree> there is a nasm example floating around
11:58:40 <ree> made for *nix
11:58:53 <I440r> yes in a very few # bytes too
11:58:57 <ree> only ~200 bytes
11:59:10 <ianni> compressed brainfuck?
11:59:11 <ianni> LOL
11:59:16 <ree> onetom, that's really sad considering how bad that technology is 
11:59:54 <onetom> yeah its was a lil bit unreliable some times
12:00:24 <onetom> but between windows clients it wasnt that terrible
12:00:40 <onetom> anyway, gotta go 2 have a shower
12:00:40 <ree> ok, you missed the point or are just playing with me
12:00:57 <onetom> ree: probably the former
12:01:06 <onetom> so, what was the point?
12:01:09 <ree> mke sre 2 mke it brf
12:01:19 <onetom> the compressed writing
12:01:28 <ree> dn't wnt 2 wste ine tme 
12:01:31 <onetom> thats what i was talking about
12:01:52 <I440r> actually, a brainfuck compiler wouldnt be that difficult
12:01:57 <onetom> its abs not time waster
12:02:20 <ree> I'm amazed your nick ins 1tom
12:02:21 <onetom> u simple start 2 abbrev the most frequent 10-20 wrds
12:02:23 <ree> isn't
12:02:26 <I440r> :bf wordname +++--<><>//--++ ( a string of brainfuck code) ;bf
12:02:43 <onetom> coz its not allowed 2 start a nick w a digit
12:02:43 <ree> i440r, I'm such inspiration to you
12:02:43 <I440r> would compile as
12:02:51 <ree> i440r, you need to start paying me royalties buddy :)
12:02:56 <I440r>  call do-brainfuck
12:03:05 <I440r>   db length,"the brainfuck code string"
12:03:11 <I440r> easy :)
12:03:22 <ree> call??
12:03:26 <ree> you used a call?
12:03:28 <onetom> ree: asm
12:03:30 <ree> that's not efficient!
12:03:37 <I440r> yes it is
12:03:37 <ree> :)
12:03:54 <I440r> do-brainfuck would pop the return address off the stack and interpret the brainfuck string at that address
12:03:57 <I440r> VERY efficient
12:03:59 <onetom> ree: just not the right 1 ;p
12:04:02 <ree> reorganize your code so that all the brainfuck code is inside the call area
12:04:06 <ree> you waste a cycle or two
12:04:19 <ree> hehe
12:04:19 <I440r> dont care if i waste a cycle or 2 :)
12:04:27 <ree> ohh ohh :)
12:04:51 <onetom> ianni: im gonna contemplate about the elevators while showering
12:06:44 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ip-216-25-205-189.vienna.va.fcc.net) joined #forth
12:06:49 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
12:07:05 <ree> so anyone have cool projects here
12:07:07 <ree> hey TBW
12:07:08 <ree> ltns :)
12:07:12 <TheBlueWizard> hiya ree
12:07:16 <I440r> tbw!!!!
12:07:18 <I440r> ltns :)
12:07:19 <TheBlueWizard> yeah, ltns indeed :)
12:07:19 <Robert> Hi TBW!
12:07:24 <ree> haha
12:07:25 <TheBlueWizard> hiya I440r!!! :)
12:07:28 <I440r> now all we need is for mrreach to show up :)
12:07:33 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Robert
12:07:39 <ree> yeah, I just came here too tbw
12:07:41 <Robert> :)
12:07:44 * TheBlueWizard is at home, sick
12:07:48 <ree> ahh
12:07:53 <ree> so #forth gets you at your best time
12:07:54 <I440r> get back :P
12:07:59 <TheBlueWizard> yup :)
12:08:20 <TheBlueWizard> ree: nice timing hehe
12:08:58 <ree> yeah
12:09:10 <ree> tbw, I forgot what projects you did
12:09:16 <ree> 4/8bit stuff right?
12:10:02 <TheBlueWizard> ree: my current project: develop a visual math expression editor and manipulator...I just came up with a name for that project:  MathBoard :)
12:10:23 <TheBlueWizard> 4/8 bit?  I have no idea.....
12:10:35 <ree> sort of a modeler?
12:10:40 <ree> for what platform?
12:11:46 <TheBlueWizard> MathBoard is written in Python, runs in Linux (currently using ANSI for debugging purpose; will eventually use ncurses, then genericized at some time in the future :)
12:11:58 <ree> oh
12:12:00 <ree> ew
12:12:01 <ree> heh
12:12:11 <TheBlueWizard> one guy is already interested in my project :)
12:12:18 <ree> I lost my appetite :)
12:12:22 <ree> damn you
12:12:47 <ree> ANSI or raw console i/o? 
12:12:55 <TheBlueWizard> well, it would be much easier than doing paper and pen work with expressions involving hundreds of variables (I am already dealing with that :-P)
12:12:58 <ree> I forget the term
12:13:04 <ree> it's been awhile since I did *nix coding
12:13:24 <ree> yeah, but I thought when you said visual you meant graphical
12:13:42 <ree> and done in asm or forth 
12:14:23 <TheBlueWizard> ANSI for purpose of highlighting, blinking (to simulate cursor movements)....I want to be able to break out of the program, and the program currently does "line-printing" only...but the visual printout part *does* work!
12:15:30 <ree> you can break out of a curses program
12:15:41 <TheBlueWizard> asm is way too much work for that...I use Python cuz it has garbage collection plus it is easy to read (versus C++, say), plus I need to debug it interactively, plus I do it in small stages cuz I don't have much time
12:15:58 <ree> yeah
12:16:23 <ree> it's good you always have a project going on at least 
12:16:33 <TheBlueWizard> yes, it is possible to break out of curses...but I want to basically separate out keyboard action from the printout, so I can pinpoint the bug more easily
12:17:30 <TheBlueWizard> right now I am in the stage of developing a smart cursor movement code...turns out to be pretty tough one....
12:18:47 <I440r> tbw the cursor movement is ALOT faster than the character attribute modifications, the best way to do a display update is to only update teh characters that have actually been changed
12:18:58 <I440r> and to update ALL characters with the same attribute at the same time
12:19:22 <I440r> so if you have 40 characters of one attribute scatterd over the display and 5 of another attribute 
12:19:32 <I440r> do the 40 first then the 5 (or the other way arround)
12:19:42 <I440r> dont do some of teh 40 then the 5 then the rest of teh 40
12:20:07 <I440r> thats a modification i have to make to my windowing code in isforth
12:20:21 * ree exchanges i440r's keyboard's e and h keys 
12:20:30 --- quit: TheBlueWizard (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: zookie!TheBlueWiz@ip-216-25-202-204.vienna.va.fcc.net)))
12:20:36 <ree> haha
12:20:41 <ree> all that typing 
12:20:48 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ip-216-25-202-204.vienna.va.fcc.net) joined #forth
12:20:55 <Robert> Hello again.
12:21:03 <TheBlueWizard> grr.....got disconnected...hafta dial again
12:21:16 <I440r> tbw did you see what i said ?
12:21:21 <Robert> Ouch, dail-up.
12:21:25 <TheBlueWizard> first time this happened in a very long time for me!
12:21:31 <I440r> ree i always transpose those letters when typing "the" heh
12:21:41 <TheBlueWizard> I440r: lemme read the log :)
12:21:48 <I440r> someone relay what i said above to tbw, i gtg do something
12:21:49 <I440r> brb :)
12:21:56 <ree> clog is in here
12:21:58 <ree> so you're fine
12:24:03 <TheBlueWizard> hehe...yup...am reading I440r stuff now...I apparently did not see his writeup
12:27:25 <TheBlueWizard> I440r: um....I am not talking about low level cursor movements...I am talking about the high level movements...e.g. how to move the cursor across the expression in a proper visual way, ex: (1/x + 1)^6 with cursor sitting on "x"
12:27:54 <I440r> err ok, im totally lost with what you mean then :)
12:28:25 <Herkamire> I440r: he's gotta figure out where the cursor should go next when the user presses the up arrow
12:28:36 <TheBlueWizard> I implemented the internal representation as a tree, and have to figure out how to do those movements right
12:30:25 <TheBlueWizard> suppose I hit a right arrow key, and the cursor which is currently sitting on "x" should go to "+" symbol
12:31:06 <ree> SIGSEGV
12:31:07 <ree> heh
12:31:08 <ree> j/k
12:31:46 <TheBlueWizard> lol...ok what about you, ree?
12:32:09 <ree> doing great
12:32:16 <ree> business is starting to really get somewhere
12:32:25 <ree> I've started coding for my organization
12:32:31 <ree> so things are fine
12:32:44 <ree> it's just a matter of time before things start falling into place (even more)
12:33:12 <ree> lot of work though
12:34:08 <TheBlueWizard> great...I can't say the same for my work though (I am now working on something like 11 hours daily schedule)
12:34:27 <ree> yeah, there really isn't enough time in a day
12:34:52 <ree> they should extend a day to 34 hours and just give us free pills to keep us awake that long
12:35:38 <TheBlueWizard> I work as a security guy for Winblows stuff (I'm supposed to be a combo security and programmer, but hasn't done any serious programming in almost 2 years now)
12:36:11 <ree> yeah?
12:36:24 <ree> so you fill up your spare time with programming odd projects?
12:36:46 <TheBlueWizard> ree: lol...we should just rob banks, line our pockets with a couple million bucks, invest some of them in stock market for future earnings, then retire and do really fun things ;)
12:36:58 <TheBlueWizard> ree: yup...exactly
12:37:04 <ree> haha :)
12:37:14 <ree> too bad there isn't any stock market to invest in :)
12:37:46 <TheBlueWizard> right now, stock market sux, sure....but I still do invest...I'm in for a long haul
12:37:59 <ree> yeah
12:38:09 <ree> when the stock market sucks is the time to invest
12:38:38 <ree> it's funny that people pull out when things start to go down
12:39:03 <ree> funny/sad/stupid
12:40:33 <TheBlueWizard> hehe...I actually raised my investing rate earlier this year, and I am not upset by that lol
12:42:33 <ree> yeah, we have a few old GE stocks
12:42:42 <ree> they just keep raking in more and more cash each split
12:42:51 <ree> there was a 3:1 split about two years ago hehe
12:44:05 <ianni> i should dump my 401 k in high risk.
12:44:06 * TheBlueWizard nods
12:44:20 <TheBlueWizard> now GE stock has lost a bit of its luster
12:44:26 <ree> yeah
12:44:30 <ree> it'll come back though
12:44:40 <ree> it just needs a good waxing and polish
12:44:52 <ree> good company
12:45:09 <TheBlueWizard> when the economy picks up, I'm sure it'll be back...tho' the war drumming ain't good for the economy....
12:45:21 <ree> it isn't? :
12:45:22 <ree> )
12:45:31 <ree> not right now it isn't, but right after it is 
12:45:59 <ree> people will have a better sense of security afterwards
12:46:30 <TheBlueWizard> if we end in a "glorious triumph" (however that is defined :), yeah, the economy will pick up
12:47:13 <TheBlueWizard> then again we are in a war on terrorism, and we aren't exactly getting anywhere with that....
12:47:48 <I440r> we will now
12:48:37 <ree> heh, we aren't? :)
12:48:46 <ree> we're doing pretty well I think
12:48:57 <ree> better than it was before 9/11
12:49:01 <Herkamire> "fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity"
12:49:32 <I440r> ree i agree but we have been draging because of democrapic obstructionist tactics :)
12:49:34 <ree> um, ok
12:49:45 <ree> no need to comment on that because it was so fucking stupid heh
12:49:55 <ree> yeah i440r
12:50:22 <ree> i440r, both sides could be blamed but I think we're moving along pretty damn fast
12:50:36 <ree> the name of the game is intelligence
12:50:46 <ree> we already know how to kill/destroy them 
12:51:09 <ree> I mean, the technology is already developed the rest is strategy 
12:51:17 <ree> or as bush says "strateegery"
12:51:20 <ree> hehe, SNL :)
12:51:39 <TheBlueWizard> SNL?
12:51:52 <ree> saturday night live
12:52:03 <ree> will farrel playing bush
12:52:22 <ree> making fun of his mispronunciations 
12:52:24 <TheBlueWizard> ah....haven't watched SNL
12:52:52 <ree> yeah, it's only been on 25 years
12:53:05 <ree> maybe you'll catch it within the next 25 :)
12:53:26 <TheBlueWizard> I know...I only watched it a few times...and that was more than 10 years ago :)
12:53:47 <ree> I don't blame you, it's stupid
12:54:05 <ree> just saturday nights.. lonely... 
12:54:10 <ree> hey, that's SNL too :)
12:55:08 <TheBlueWizard> lol
12:55:41 <ree> I'm in kentucky now without cable
12:55:45 <ree> so I get two channels hehe
12:55:52 <ree> neither are NBC :)
12:57:22 <TheBlueWizard> only two? whoa...I live in WashDC metro area, and I have, um (counting) about 15 channels, and I only have an antenna!
12:57:50 <ree> yeah, it's because I'm about 100 miles away from large cities
12:58:01 <ree> and antennaes are directional
12:58:19 <Robert> Heh.
12:58:28 <ree> I'm too cheap to buy a rotator and I'm too lazy to get up on the roof every time I change the channel
12:58:30 <Robert> ree is the desert creature.
12:58:39 <ree> I'm in kentucky :)
12:58:45 <ree> there is no desert here heh
12:58:51 <Robert> No idea where that is.
12:58:54 <ree> unless you mean deserted :)
12:59:12 <ree> one state south of the great lakes
12:59:12 <Robert> Like...er...in the middle? ;)
12:59:21 <ree> middle -> east
12:59:25 <Robert> Hmm.. OK
12:59:32 <TheBlueWizard> :)
12:59:35 <ree> right below illinois (chicago)
12:59:55 <ree> I'm in the middle of everything
13:00:07 <ree> but that is the problem, I'm only in the middle of it hehe
13:00:16 <Robert> You're the center of the world, ree.
13:00:42 <ree> damn right robert
13:00:47 <ree> don't any of you forget that :)
13:00:54 <ree> and make sure to stay even on my left and right sides
13:01:00 <ree> we don't want the world flipping do we?
13:02:16 <Robert> The world is a cube. It can't flip.
13:02:19 <TheBlueWizard> lol....um I thought China was the "center of the world", heck, the Chinese word(s) for China literally means "Middle Country"
13:02:46 <ree> well, they coined China when I was standing in the middle of it
13:02:57 <ree> long story
13:03:05 <Robert> Everyone knows Middle Earth is just something that pothead Tolkien made up.
13:03:08 <TheBlueWizard> lol...how perfectly egoistic of you, ree!
13:03:23 <ree> yeah tbw, I am perfect :)
13:03:33 <Robert> Let's just follow The Standard, and use London as the center of the world.
13:03:49 <ree> frankly I don't see how that is possible
13:03:52 <ree> I've never been to london
13:04:30 <I440r> i have, your not missing much ":P
13:04:31 <Robert> ;)
13:05:17 <TheBlueWizard> Robert: um, let's use Sun as the Standard ;)  we're living in a heliocentic age now lol
13:05:30 --- quit: Herkamire ("leaving")
13:06:21 <Robert> TheBlueWizard: Er...yes...the sun is the center of the earth. Yes.
13:06:33 <ree> I'm a sun
13:06:41 <ree> well, a son
13:06:43 <Robert> We know, Dear Leader.
13:06:56 <ree> so that is fine 
13:07:27 <ree> have a good one guys
13:07:34 <ree> IANAFER
13:07:40 <TheBlueWizard> lmao
13:07:41 <ree> I am not a forther :)
13:07:47 <ree> so I'll be going
13:07:56 <ree> nice seeing you tbw, i440r
13:07:59 <TheBlueWizard> why not?
13:08:01 <ree> you too roberto
13:08:05 <Robert> Bye ree.
13:08:11 <ree> well, I don't really like programming anyway
13:08:15 <Robert> TheBlueWizard: Because he is a fan of bloatware and x86!
13:08:18 <TheBlueWizard> bye ree (but Forth is fun!)
13:08:23 <ree> so I only use the right tools for the job
13:08:24 <Robert> (And his only hobby is soaps)
13:08:31 <ree> grr
13:08:34 <ree> that is not a hobby
13:08:38 <ree> I don't have hobbies
13:08:40 <TheBlueWizard> lol....and soap boxes :)
13:08:44 <Robert> Well.. your LIFE is soap.
13:08:47 <ree> I have a hobby knife but that does not make me a hobby guy
13:08:48 <Robert> Happy now?
13:08:54 <ree> Happy ree.
13:08:58 <Robert> Yay.
13:09:04 <ree> no more soap btw
13:09:08 <ree> we changed the business name 
13:09:19 <ree> we're going to have a lot more different products not just bath and body :)
13:09:33 <Robert> What then?
13:09:41 <ree> clothing, furniture, etc
13:09:51 <Robert> Leather clothes for perverts?
13:09:52 <ree> anything that will look good with a southwest design
13:10:02 <ree> leather is popular for clothing 
13:10:12 <ree> but I prefer comfortable clothing 
13:10:20 * Robert too. >:)
13:10:29 <ree> star trek jumpsuits!
13:10:35 <ree> with canyons painted on them
13:10:37 <ree> hehehe
13:10:56 <ree> ok, take care :)
13:10:57 --- part: ree left #forth
13:12:49 <TheBlueWizard> Robert: sounds like ree rather to just chat here...and if he dislikes programming at all, why does he bother to come here? :P
13:13:53 <Robert> Ehm. He's a strange guy.
13:14:09 <Robert> He was going to code an AI system in assembly language, that did all his work.
13:14:21 * Robert shakes his head.
13:14:51 <TheBlueWizard> ah...the word "AI" rang a bell in my mind...yes, I now recall that....damn ambitious...or just a waste of time :)
13:15:33 <Robert> I'd say the latter :P
13:15:56 <TheBlueWizard> hehe...I agree with you, no question there!
13:17:57 --- join: neobrat (~neobrat@h-64-105-21-62.DNVTCO56.covad.net) joined #forth
13:18:21 <TheBlueWizard> hiya neobrat
13:18:29 <neobrat> hiya, hows it going?
13:18:29 <Robert> Hi there.
13:18:41 <neobrat> Got a few questions for y'all
13:18:54 <neobrat> first time here, and I assume ur all big forth'ers =)
13:19:03 <Robert> I'm a small Forther.
13:19:07 <neobrat> hehe
13:19:40 <TheBlueWizard> I'm just an oldtimer Forther...not a big one :)
13:19:42 <neobrat> Okay... well, anyways. I've finished a forth compiler for the GameBoy Advance (Nintendo)
13:19:43 <Robert> Which means I'll answer all of your questions, but use incorrect terms and give you non-working code.
13:19:52 <neobrat> *chuckle*
13:20:00 <Robert> Oh, well. Continue.
13:20:14 <I440r> COOL!
13:20:16 <neobrat> Well, it isn't ANSI forth by any means, it is my own design
13:20:20 <I440r> what processor is that ?
13:20:25 <Robert> Even better.
13:20:26 <neobrat> ARM 7
13:20:31 <I440r> nice!
13:20:31 <Robert> Fancy.
13:20:36 <neobrat> well, thank you =)
13:20:40 <I440r> you belong in here
13:20:46 * I440r locks the door
13:20:51 <neobrat> hehe (hits the bookmark button)
13:21:01 <Robert> I haven't really checked those ones out. But of the few things I've seen, it seems to be a nice architecture.
13:21:03 <TheBlueWizard> cool....does this Forth run "natively" (e.g. no OS running under it)?
13:21:03 <I440r> no escaping :P
13:21:10 <neobrat> the ARM rules
13:21:30 <neobrat> BlueWiz: sort of -- it is direct threaded, but it is native code
13:21:48 <TheBlueWizard> lol...writing a Forth compiler is a pretty good job
13:21:59 <I440r> neo what q's u got ?
13:22:20 <neobrat> It isn't traditional forth in that it doesn't run on the target machine. It would be like programming in C for the GBA
13:22:30 <neobrat> you write your code, click compile and then run it
13:22:33 <TheBlueWizard> uhh...I mean, like, does it rely on OS calls or BIOS like calls to do its job?
13:22:48 <neobrat> no it doesn't
13:23:07 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...interesting!
13:23:10 <neobrat> but the GBA BIOS does have some nice software interrupts that can be used (ie divide)
13:23:12 <I440r> cool!
13:23:35 <neobrat> But, I'd like to ask some Forth'ers some questions about things I'm debating on doing to it
13:23:53 <I440r> ask :)
13:23:56 <I440r> but be warned
13:23:59 <neobrat> first: the floating-point stack is part of the data stack
13:24:01 <TheBlueWizard> go ahead...we are great at debating :)
13:24:05 <Robert> ...and you'll get 4 different answers...
13:24:12 <I440r> i for one amd diametrically opposed to ans :)
13:24:14 <neobrat> this is because it isn't IEEE Floating point but Fixed-Point
13:24:19 <neobrat> hehe
13:24:26 <Robert> Ehm.
13:24:33 <Robert> Fixed-point floating-point? :)
13:24:38 <Robert> Is that what you use?
13:24:53 <neobrat> Yes, fixed-point math (for fractional calculations)
13:25:05 <I440r> im liking you more and more :)
13:25:23 <neobrat> Because of some functions that the ARM has, this makes fixed-point math DAMN FAST
13:25:59 <neobrat> Now for my contoversial question......
13:26:18 <neobrat> I'm debating on making the stack notation for words static and required
13:26:34 <neobrat> the reason for this is that since it is a compiled language
13:26:36 <I440r> you mean ( n1 n2 --- foo )
13:26:39 <neobrat> yes
13:26:40 <I440r> required ?
13:26:50 <I440r> no i wouldnt REQUIRE it - but i would STRONGLY recommend it
13:26:59 <neobrat> I can trap logic errors really nice
13:27:12 <neobrat> For example: at compile time, I have a TYPE stack in memory
13:27:21 <I440r> eek!
13:27:29 <I440r> type checking is bad :)
13:27:34 <neobrat> When it hits a function (say +) it sees the notation: ( n n -- n )
13:27:55 * TheBlueWizard chuckles, imagining I440r's sudden loss of his enthusiasm :)
13:28:04 <neobrat> Now, later on when you use + in a function it will check the type stack and see if there are enough arguments of the correct type
13:28:13 <I440r> what your saying is that your compiler would parse whats between the ( and ) and make sure thats whats actually passsed
13:28:24 <TheBlueWizard> ?
13:28:24 <neobrat> Yes
13:28:29 <I440r> well thats error prone too
13:28:37 <neobrat> I don't understand?
13:28:38 <I440r> you might have 500 items on the stack but only the top 2 are parameters to the word
13:28:50 <I440r> plus
13:28:50 <I440r> what if someone only passes ONE
13:28:51 <neobrat> yes, the TYPE stack would contain 500 items
13:28:58 <TheBlueWizard> interesting...though I personally don't see the value in doing that
13:29:04 <I440r> no way for you to know that
13:29:22 <I440r>  ( ... n1 n2 --- result )
13:29:28 <neobrat> Okay, take this for example:
13:29:35 <neobrat> : go 3 swap ;
13:29:37 <I440r> thats whats REALY passed to a word. thers items on the stack and the user passes n1 and n2
13:29:37 <I440r> but the word expects 3 items
13:29:37 <I440r> its going to TAKE three items
13:29:46 <neobrat> Now I hit compile
13:30:05 <neobrat> The compiler hits 3, and pushes INTEGER onto the TYPE stack
13:30:13 <I440r> your not going to KNOW you fubared till the LAST word tries to take ITS parameters and finds someone else stole it
13:30:17 <neobrat> then hits SWAP -- swap requires two arguments, compiler stops with error
13:30:43 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
13:30:44 <neobrat> Yes, I440r, that is a possibility
13:30:49 <I440r> well thats NOT an error
13:30:58 <I440r> it depends on how YOU intend the word to be used
13:31:04 <neobrat> Depends on point of view
13:31:05 <I440r> 5 go
13:31:07 <neobrat> ;)
13:31:15 <I440r> for instance would end up with 2 parameters for the swap
13:31:15 <neobrat> Well, 5 GO would work
13:31:24 <I440r> no way you can error check that
13:31:27 <neobrat> remember, the TYPE stack is only for compiling
13:31:32 <neobrat> not at run-time
13:31:33 <I440r> because some of the parameters are passed at compile time
13:31:47 <I440r> others at run time
13:31:49 <TheBlueWizard> what about words which return different stuff, like -FIND?
13:32:06 <I440r> not if the compilation of GO aborted because it only had one parameter
13:32:07 <neobrat> Yeah, thats a reason I'm still debating this (bluewiz)
13:32:52 <neobrat> The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking about not adding it
13:32:58 <I440r> also
13:33:06 <neobrat> BTW (just to pat myself on the back) the compiler is < 80K :)
13:33:16 <I440r> i have words that return a different number of return values
13:33:33 <I440r> i.e.  ( .... --- n1 n2 T | n1 n2 n3 F )
13:33:40 <neobrat> yeah, those scare me... my compiler would choke
13:33:49 <I440r> im either returning two numbers plus a true or three numbers or a false
13:34:01 <I440r> it shouldnt. :)
13:34:04 <I440r> its trying to do too much
13:34:07 <neobrat> I agree
13:34:08 <TheBlueWizard> hmm....the words that return "consistent" results type-wise can be checked by a compiler, sure...but the words that can return different results type wise must be checked at runtime, and that's the problem....
13:34:11 <tathi> and it seems like those are the situations where you're most likely to have bugs
13:34:23 <neobrat> Plus, it is one of the beauties of Forth
13:34:26 <I440r> tathi not realy
13:34:28 <neobrat> I'd be removing it
13:35:11 <neobrat> Oh, BTW, Happy B-Day
13:35:12 <tathi> I440r: that's what I find...I'm much more likely to return the wrong number of things if I have control-flow stuff in my word
13:35:18 <I440r> hehe :)
13:35:36 <TheBlueWizard> of course if you limit the scope of "dynamic results" to something "agreed upon", like n T | F for example, then it is doable
13:35:56 <I440r> dont get TOO complex with that sort of thing then. in fact, not being too complex is alwayus a good thing when you can manage it :)
13:36:10 * TheBlueWizard agrees with I440r
13:36:24 <neobrat> I still see potential in it...
13:36:42 <neobrat> You would lose some thing and gain debugging at compile time
13:36:50 <neobrat> its a toss up
13:36:50 <tathi> how long does it take to compile, download to GBA, and run?
13:37:05 <neobrat> well, I don't actually have a GBA -- just emulators
13:37:06 <TheBlueWizard> another solution is to silently suppress type checking on critical words at appropriate points...though I haven't even thought the idea out much
13:37:31 <neobrat> but a decent program takes about 1 second to compile, and then running is just a sec to open the file in the emulator
13:37:56 <TheBlueWizard> compile a source...how big?
13:38:00 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@65.191.88.177) joined #forth
13:38:07 <neobrat> a few k at least
13:38:17 <tathi> 'cause if compile/run time is short there's less of an advantage to catching things at compile time...
13:38:19 <TheBlueWizard> hmm
13:38:28 <neobrat> I've written some gfx libraries in it for line drawing, circles, etc.
13:38:44 <neobrat> didnt really think about that tathi
13:38:46 <neobrat> good point
13:38:57 <neobrat> it compiles nice and compact too
13:39:22 <TheBlueWizard> tathi: I think neobrat wants to be able to debug his code at an earlier stage....I think just emulating doesn't quite cut the cake....am I off the mark or what?
13:39:47 <neobrat> no -- your hitting it. Its difficult some times
13:39:50 <neobrat> think of this:
13:40:10 <neobrat> I want another person to use this... they don't know ARM assembly so they are just using the FORTH portion of the compiler
13:40:37 <neobrat> now, the do : go >r ; and run the program BANG crash, butt he GBA just locks up
13:40:49 <neobrat> they dont know why, no error is reported (being a console app)
13:41:02 <neobrat> but with the compiler catching it, it would never of happened
13:41:36 <neobrat> at the same time, to an advanced user, they might want to do that because they want to return to an exact address
13:41:48 <neobrat> highly debatable
13:42:42 <neobrat> I can personally debug those kinds of problems, but someone who doesn't know the CORE or ARM asm would be lost
13:42:50 <I440r> neobrat do you code x86 ?
13:42:56 <neobrat> To them, "it compiled fine, but didn't work"
13:42:59 <neobrat> yeah
13:43:09 <neobrat> not as well, but i do
13:43:09 <TheBlueWizard> hmm....well, I would say that any code that locks up a GBA constitutes a bug :)
13:43:16 <I440r> you might be interested in my vga mode 12/13/x line drawing routines :)
13:43:30 <neobrat> cool... im just using bresenham right now
13:43:35 <I440r> im absolutely postaive my mode 12 is the fastest line drawing routine for that mode in existance :)
13:43:40 <I440r> so am i :)
13:43:43 <neobrat> hehe
13:43:44 <I440r> hang on :)
13:43:47 <TheBlueWizard> cool
13:44:21 * Robert wants it, too.
13:44:39 <TheBlueWizard> neobrat: um...what about buffer overflowing?  the compiler can't detect that, and it can lock up the GBA... :)
13:44:58 * TheBlueWizard is interested in I440r's gfx code too :)
13:45:13 <neobrat> true
13:45:15 <I440r> its in my ftp under /pub/engine
13:45:24 <I440r> ive not worked on that in YEARS tho :)
13:46:01 <neobrat> brb
13:46:06 <Robert> Yay.
13:46:09 * Robert gets it.
13:46:14 <I440r> it will also be slow because the ftp is on my dial up
13:46:17 <I440r> and im downloading :)
13:46:18 <Robert> proteusguy: Hey
13:46:29 <I440r> ur all welcome to the code if you can use it :)
13:46:43 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth
13:47:04 <neobrat> back
13:47:33 <Robert> Hi Herkamire.
13:47:37 <Robert> And wb, neobrat 
13:47:48 <Herkamire> hi :)
13:47:58 <neobrat> hola
13:48:01 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Herkamire
13:48:07 <TheBlueWizard> hiya proteusguy
13:48:21 <Herkamire> neobrat: I hate the typechecking in C, but I like your idea of a typestack that checks stuff at compiletime
13:48:43 <neobrat> thanks, its got me nervous though
13:48:51 <neobrat> for all the reasons others have mentioned
13:48:58 <Robert> How do I download a whole directory in ftp?
13:49:05 <I440r> :)
13:49:18 <neobrat> "mget" i think
13:49:26 <Herkamire> Robert: wget -r
13:49:34 <neobrat> that too ;P
13:49:40 <I440r> in general im opposed to the compiler testing things teh user is trying to do, the USER is the smart one :)
13:49:54 <I440r> within an ftp yu mget *
13:50:12 <I440r> but wget is better :)
13:50:26 <TheBlueWizard> I440r: unless the USER is an average pimple faced teen playing all the time...he'd ditch the app if it crashes :)
13:50:33 <Herkamire> I440r: yess, but I often make stupid mistakes that a stupid computer could notice :)
13:50:46 <tathi> I can see it being useful
13:50:49 <proteusguy> Hey Robert: TheBlueWizard: et al... :-) What's the subject today?
13:51:01 <I440r> if the user makes a mistake HE is the one who should fix it
13:51:06 <neobrat> What if it didn't type-check, but rather just argument counted?
13:51:07 <I440r> : blah ..... if ...... ;
13:51:15 <I440r> : foo ....... then ...... ;
13:51:18 <Robert> proteusguy: neobrat is discussing his compiler.
13:51:19 <I440r> or
13:51:24 <I440r> : blah ....... if ....... ;
13:51:31 <I440r> : foo ....... AGAIN ...... ;
13:51:35 <I440r> :)
13:51:35 <proteusguy> What's the target?
13:51:39 <neobrat> *shiver*
13:51:40 <I440r> evil code!
13:51:40 <Herkamire> I440r: the compiler isn't supposed to fix it, it is supposed to let the USER know that he just did something not smart.
13:51:43 <neobrat> GameBoy Advance
13:51:45 <I440r> but it MIGHT be realy clever code too
13:51:55 <tathi> I440r: does that work in isforth?
13:51:58 <I440r> the IF left an address on the stack :)
13:52:05 <I440r> the again branches to the body of teh if statement :)
13:52:07 <neobrat> It might -- but totally undebuggable!
13:52:16 <proteusguy> neobrat: No kiddin? Cool! What cpu is that? Are you making a game computer or turning it into a PDA?
13:52:22 <neobrat> I actually don't let that happen in my compiler
13:52:26 <I440r> not sure if the if/again would work but the if and then can be in seperate definitions in isforth yes
13:52:34 <neobrat> At the start of a new word the control-flow stack is emptied
13:52:42 <I440r> neobrat my isforth doesnt have a debugger yet :)
13:52:50 <I440r> and in forth the BEST way to debug is to do
13:52:50 <neobrat> if at the end of the function it still has stuff in it, the compiler errors out
13:52:59 <I440r> : blah ..... ;
13:52:59 <I440r> 1 2 3 blah
13:52:59 <I440r> .s
13:53:22 <neobrat> remember, I440r: that isn't possible here
13:53:49 <I440r> hmmm
13:53:53 <neobrat> You would have to write the word, compile, run on emulator and step through ASM code and watch registers
13:54:00 <I440r> : blah ..... ;
13:54:01 <neobrat> to see if you got the correct output
13:54:04 <I440r> then click on compile :)
13:54:07 <I440r> erm - can you forget  ?
13:54:23 <I440r> or cant you do anything interactivly with it
13:54:29 <neobrat> nothing interactive
13:54:31 <TheBlueWizard> neobrat: do you have the source for your emulator? I was wondering how easy or hard is to hack it to give a "console" output....
13:54:36 <neobrat> no keyboard on GBA -- its a console
13:54:46 <tathi> output
13:54:57 <I440r> no way to give it a keyboard ?
13:54:59 <neobrat> I don't -- not my emulator -- that was another concept idea though, to incorporate one
13:55:04 <I440r> i.e. does it have a serial port ?
13:55:12 <I440r> even an 8051 can be made interactive
13:55:26 <Herkamire> morse code :) :)
13:55:28 <neobrat> im sure it /could/ but I'm not going to ;)
13:55:50 <neobrat> If it was something bigger (ie Playstation) then I would
13:55:59 <I440r> :)
13:56:07 <neobrat> but not a silly handheld system
13:56:18 <neobrat> one thing that does have me excited though:
13:56:20 <tathi> neobrat: do you have any kind of text output? . emit etc.
13:56:24 <I440r> i dont have any game consoles, i realy NEED a keyboard :)
13:56:44 <neobrat> PocketPC and new Palm's use ARM ... which this compiler would work on with VERY little change
13:57:05 <TheBlueWizard> interesting....
13:57:06 <neobrat> tathi -- no, but given the compiler you could write one
13:58:05 <neobrat> Also, the compiler reads direct ARM assembly -- I hate FORTH assembly words
13:58:19 <neobrat> so this would be a valid word:
13:58:34 <neobrat> thumb code + pop {r0,r1} add r0,r1 push {r0} next
13:58:57 <neobrat> THUMB is a keyword for the ARM to set a mode
13:59:44 <I440r> you mean you dont like "5 # ax mov" and prefer "mov ax, # 5" ?
13:59:47 <I440r> ME TOO!!!!!
14:00:06 <neobrat> hehe =)
14:00:09 <I440r> when i get to the assembler extension for isforth thats how it will look :)
14:00:56 <neobrat> the ARM just has too many damn modes to use reverse-polish on
14:01:23 <TheBlueWizard> neobrat: FYI I440r is stuck on how to do that sort of x86 assembly right now, due to some certain technical problems
14:01:36 <neobrat> What problems are those?
14:01:44 <I440r> x86 too, looks realy horrible in rpn
14:01:52 <TheBlueWizard> ask I440r...I don't remember lol
14:01:54 <I440r> but rpn is a hell of alot better than at&t on an x86
14:02:04 <neobrat> hehe
14:02:06 <I440r> at&t is devilspawn
14:02:11 <TheBlueWizard> lol
14:02:12 <neobrat> So what are these problems?
14:02:31 <I440r> actually, the problem isnt in fixing the RPN, i devized a way to do that
14:02:44 <I440r> its the instruction encoding that im stuck on atm
14:03:00 <neobrat> I just do the following: CODE word enters assembly mode
14:03:22 <neobrat> get next word, compare against instruction... if it expects arguments then read next word and parse it
14:03:28 <neobrat> that's it
14:03:40 <neobrat> I actually add some things to make it easier
14:03:41 <I440r> :)
14:03:51 <neobrat> for example, I have a word "INLINE" which is nice... I can do:
14:04:04 <I440r> hang on, im booting my laptop and ill show you how i sorted out the RPN problem :)
14:04:08 <neobrat> .... [IF] 200 inline my-constant
14:04:10 <I440r> its neat. even thin liked it heh
14:04:17 <neobrat> then in ARM code I can do:
14:04:28 <neobrat> add r0,@{my-constant}
14:04:45 <neobrat> cool
14:05:04 <I440r> i dont have conditional compilation in isforth - nor will i ever
14:05:18 <neobrat> Mine isn't complete
14:05:54 <I440r> neither is isforth
14:06:14 <I440r> but (and i tell this to everyone)
14:06:31 <I440r> in a little over 30k ive got an almost complete replacement for both libc and libncurses
14:06:31 <I440r> and it can compile about a megabyte of source per second :)
14:06:49 <neobrat> hehe sounds sweet
14:07:06 <neobrat> for my conditional compiling, I just have 2 word: DECLARE and [IF]
14:07:31 <I440r> 0 var defered
14:07:34 <neobrat> [IF] checks the next word, and if has been DECLARE'd continues with compiling that line
14:07:42 <neobrat> otherwise just skips and continues to the next line
14:08:07 <I440r> : defer> defered r> !> defered dup ?: >r drop ;
14:08:23 <I440r> my ?: is a replacement for if/else/then
14:08:34 <neobrat> nice and defer?
14:08:36 <I440r> (flag --- ) ?: true-case false-case .... 
14:08:57 <I440r> i have a variable called defered
14:09:03 <neobrat> oh ok
14:09:05 <I440r> all mneumonics start as follows
14:09:12 <I440r> : name defer> forth code goes here ;
14:09:26 <I440r> defer> takes teh return address off the stack and exchanges it with whats in defered
14:09:39 <neobrat> what is the purpose of this?
14:09:45 <I440r> if the variable defered is zero we just store the reutn address and exit 
14:10:08 <I440r> : opcode defer>  blah blah blah ;  <-- the blah blah blah will NOT be executed yet
14:10:26 <neobrat> I see -- nice
14:10:28 <I440r> the next opcode will do a defer> and we will return to the blah blah part above
14:10:41 <I440r> so when we do mov ax, # 5
14:11:04 <I440r> the MOV part wont be executed until we have processed the ax, # 5 part :)
14:11:24 <neobrat> See, I just would have: MOV AX,#5
14:11:47 <I440r> we in isforth words like ax, will set variables to say what the source and destination are
14:11:49 <neobrat> Where MOV sets the instruction mnemonic and AX,#5 would be the argumnets passed to a compile function
14:11:53 <I440r> and i dont NEED to do any parsing at all
14:11:56 <neobrat> that would return the correct opcode
14:12:04 <neobrat> very nice
14:12:11 <neobrat> BTW, to everyone here
14:12:35 <neobrat> if you are interested in checking out my compiler to program for GBA, just let me know and I'll pass it along
14:12:52 <I440r> neobrat do you use linux ?
14:12:56 * Robert doesn't have any Gameboy, or even any ARM experience :-/
14:13:04 <neobrat> *sigh* no
14:13:08 <neobrat> just dumb PC
14:13:14 <neobrat> I'm actually a Mac guy
14:13:16 * TheBlueWizard is in the same boat with Robert
14:13:16 <neobrat> love OS X
14:13:25 <I440r> ya gotta get it installed! - you can make ur pc dual boot :)
14:13:34 <neobrat> ARM is the best processor I've ever seen
14:13:50 <neobrat> The ARM processor has a "barrel shifter" in it
14:14:02 <I440r> isforth.clss.net <-- my totally undocumented compiler for linux (unless you count the sources as documentation :)
14:14:02 <neobrat> so you can do an instruction like this: add r0,r1,r2,lsl,#4
14:14:12 <neobrat> r0 = r1 + (r2 << 4)
14:14:17 <neobrat> all in 1 cycle
14:14:22 <Robert> I440r: Hey, is there any documenting project going on?
14:14:29 <I440r> eep!!!!!!!!!
14:14:32 <I440r> thats cool :)
14:14:35 <I440r> yes there is
14:14:39 <I440r> sort of :)
14:14:50 <I440r> im writing up each word in the kernel. not an in depth writeup yet
14:14:52 <Robert> Hehe.
14:14:57 <I440r> but explains the word
14:15:10 <Herkamire> neobrat: I had OS X, but I got frustrated, and replaced it with linux :)
14:15:19 <tathi> I440r: what do you do with operands like [4*SI]?
14:15:23 <I440r> i gotta take my ferocious, fear enspiring, siberian attack POODLE for a walk :)
14:15:27 <I440r> (a husky realy :)
14:15:29 <neobrat> got frustrated with OS X and not Linux? *scratches his head*
14:15:38 <Robert> I440r: Often I look for the right word for a specific task, how about a work that searches for keywords and give you the word associated with them?
14:15:51 <I440r> tathi ill be supporting all opcodes for 386 to p6 when i get that far
14:15:57 <neobrat> I440r: doesn't exist
14:16:26 <neobrat> it would be broken into two different instructions:
14:16:30 <I440r> probably something like  mov eax, $1234 [ ebx +2* edx ]
14:16:34 <Herkamire> neobrat: yeah, like a bunch of good GPL software wouldn't compile, and I couldn't get the system to upgrade
14:16:39 <I440r> where $1234 is the optional offset
14:16:40 <neobrat> mov r1,r2,lsl,#2 and ldr r0,[r1]
14:16:41 <ianni> A0whatever
14:16:49 <I440r> im still not straight on how to accomplish the above
14:16:50 <ianni> OSX makes linux look like hell
14:16:56 <tathi> ok, so you'll put spaces in your asm code
14:17:02 <I440r> brb
14:17:14 <ianni> what GPL programs were you having problems with?
14:17:17 <ianni> did you not fink them?
14:17:35 <neobrat> i never tried compiling any GPL code
14:17:40 <tathi> fink?
14:17:52 <ianni> fink is like apt-get for OS X basically
14:17:59 <ianni> downloads source code, builds, installs
14:18:02 <tathi> ugh
14:18:03 <Herkamire> I decided that if I wast going to spend hours fiddling, trying to upgrade my system, that I would get a fully open source system so I _could_ mess with everything
14:18:12 <ianni> "fully open source system" ?
14:18:22 <neobrat> Actually, I440r: in ARM, check out this instruction: ldr r0,[r1,r2,ror,#1]!
14:18:27 <Herkamire> I didn't find out about fink untill way after I ditched OSX. I'm not sure it existed when I did have OSX
14:18:27 <ianni> you can mess with everything in OSX as it is, pretty much...
14:18:42 <ianni> except the proprietary technologies, which, are proprietary... and closed source
14:18:44 <neobrat> r0 = [r1+(r2>>1)] and r1 = r1 + (r2 >> 1)
14:18:54 <ianni> Herkamire: I bet it did...
14:19:05 <Herkamire> I don't much like binary distros anyway
14:19:07 <ianni> it's not as well known as it should be
14:19:12 <ianni> fink doesnt use binary ditros
14:19:44 <Herkamire> oh. my mistake
14:20:02 <neobrat> ianni: are you using Jaguar right now?
14:21:30 <ianni> yea
14:22:39 <neobrat> how is the OpenGL accelerated desktop?
14:22:51 <neobrat> My mac busted befor 10.2 came out
14:22:53 <ianni> fine
14:22:59 <neobrat> didnt have enough $ for a new one
14:23:06 <ianni> QE doesnt match the speed improvements made overall in Aqua
14:23:09 <neobrat> faster? or about the same?
14:23:16 <ianni> if i turn it off, it will still be much faster
14:23:26 <ianni> maybe slower?
14:23:31 <ianni> maybe faster... not sure
14:23:32 <neobrat> wow
14:23:37 <ianni> the whole OS is faster in Jag
14:23:40 <ianni> it's not just QE..
14:23:53 <neobrat> and the finder? better?
14:24:01 <ianni> neobrat: oh, god yes
14:24:06 <ianni> that's what i mean ..
14:24:13 <ianni> it's so much better
14:24:17 <ianni> actually usable ;)
14:24:36 <ianni> 10.1 was arguably usable... but after using 10.2 ... no
14:24:36 <neobrat> they put back in the snap windows (or whatever they were called)
14:24:47 <neobrat> ?
14:25:45 <ianni> snap windows? not sure
14:25:57 <ianni> what do you mean
14:26:01 <neobrat> oh there's a nap, just cant remember...
14:26:18 <neobrat> click the "minimize" and instead of docking it will snap to the side of the desktop
14:26:33 <ianni> neobrat, I think there's a haxie for that
14:26:41 <neobrat> probably
14:27:24 <Herkamire> whats QE?
14:27:30 <neobrat> Quartz Extreme
14:27:44 <Herkamire> sounds scary
14:27:45 <neobrat> I440r: are you releasing your isforth anytime soon?
14:27:47 <ianni> http://unsanity.com/haxies/wsx/
14:28:13 <TheBlueWizard> neobrat: visit http://isforth.clss.net
14:28:26 <TheBlueWizard> latest is 1.09b
14:29:10 <TheBlueWizard> note that isforth currently works on a *x86* *Linux* only
14:29:53 <neobrat> Why linux only?
14:30:38 <tathi> doesn't use libraries -- just syscalls
14:30:58 <neobrat> ahh ok
14:31:26 <TheBlueWizard> there is some code for FreeBSD too, but it is currently broken
14:32:36 <TheBlueWizard> as I440r doesn't have FreeBSD, and he was "depending" on a certain guy to make it work on FreeBSD
14:32:39 <ianni> Herkamire: it's cool.
14:32:47 <ianni> my entire display is a OpenGL pallete
14:32:50 <ianni> palette
14:32:59 <Herkamire> I wanna see it :)
14:33:08 <ianni> There's a sample movie somewhere
14:33:16 <ianni> where they play some DVD and fuck aruond with it in real time
14:36:01 <Herkamire> ianni: have you installed X on it?
14:37:53 <I440r> back
14:38:16 <Robert> :)
14:38:58 <ianni> Herkamire: yeah
14:39:04 <ianni> Herkamire: works fine...
14:39:14 <ianni> XDarwin runs it in Aqua
14:39:26 <neobrat> I loved my OS X
14:39:30 <ianni> rootless ;)
14:39:30 <neobrat> *sniff*
14:39:34 <ianni> awwww.
14:40:10 <neobrat> Its just makes me SICK to think I'm running Windows XP on a chip originally designed to run a DAMN TOASTER!
14:40:57 <Herkamire> it makes me sick when people run xp at all
14:41:22 <I440r> xp ?
14:41:27 <I440r> windows xp ?
14:41:31 <neobrat> yeah
14:41:44 <I440r> what chip ??? :)
14:41:51 <neobrat> x86
14:42:01 <I440r> x86 isnt a toaster chip :P
14:42:05 <I440r> 6502 is :)
14:42:06 <neobrat> 8086 was originally for a toaster
14:42:21 <I440r> and unlike the x86 (till 386) the 02 was pipelined :P
14:42:36 <neobrat> hehe 6502 -- those were the days
14:42:58 <neobrat> I once wrote an Atari 2600 emulator in Forth ;)
14:43:18 <neobrat> That was the highlight of my forth programming
14:43:32 --- quit: joonas ("ircII2.8.2-EPIC3.004+Kasi --- Bloatware at its finest.")
14:43:40 <TheBlueWizard> hehe...still has that emulator, eh?
14:43:41 <I440r> i loved my c64 :)
14:43:59 * TheBlueWizard loved C64 too :)
14:44:09 * Robert pats his C128.
14:44:17 <Robert> It was before my time, though :P
14:44:24 <I440r> the 128 sucked :P
14:44:27 <I440r> i had one of those too heh
14:45:34 <I440r> robert did you get that gfx code of mine ?
14:46:42 <Robert> Yeah.
14:46:49 <Robert> Haven't checked it yet
14:46:55 <Robert> But I got it
14:46:56 <I440r> k
14:47:01 <I440r> anyone else get it ?
14:47:05 <I440r> its realy OLD shit :)
14:47:07 * TheBlueWizard decides to d/l gfx code later hehe
14:47:40 <TheBlueWizard> when I saw so many files there, I decide it is easier to do it later on a diff machine
14:48:15 <I440r> k
14:48:34 --- quit: Herkamire ("leaving")
14:48:55 --- quit: tathi ("leaving")
14:49:14 <TheBlueWizard> o/~ there's always a tomorrow... o/~
14:49:34 <TheBlueWizard> btw, do those gfx code run on msdos, or what?
14:49:46 <Robert> Hmmm...
14:50:03 <Robert> How long does the IsForth all-bench word take over there to run?
14:50:03 <I440r> yes. msdos
14:50:06 <TheBlueWizard> seeing that they are dated in year 96 to 98
14:51:08 <I440r> :)
14:51:17 <I440r> erm a few minutes :)
14:51:22 <I440r> depending on your box :)
14:51:23 <neobrat> I think I found a home here at #forth ;)
14:51:44 <I440r> yea. 
14:51:55 <neobrat> I talk to friends about programming the 6809 Vectrex and get blank stares =)
14:51:59 <I440r> neo - i started this channel 3 years ago almost
14:52:07 <I440r> for the first year NOBODY but me was in here
14:52:10 <TheBlueWizard> neobrat: you're always welcome here (pointing to a door that I440r padlocked ;)
14:52:15 <Robert> Chuck Moore himself enjoys #forth!
14:52:17 <neobrat> hahaha
14:52:22 <I440r> we get jeff fox in here all the time now
14:52:25 <neobrat> wow nice to know
14:52:27 <I440r> and chuck moore has been in here
14:52:37 <neobrat> anyone tried out Colorforth?
14:52:51 <Robert> Doesn't run on my machines.
14:52:51 <I440r> chuck did a q&a session in here
14:52:59 <I440r> which was logged :)
14:53:02 <TheBlueWizard> there was even an #forth interview with Chuck Moore!  there is a link to that interview somewhere....
14:53:19 <Robert> http://www.ultratechnology.com :)
14:53:40 <TheBlueWizard> yeah...just be more specific, Robert :)
14:53:44 <Robert> Bah.
14:53:51 --- quit: skylan ("bah.")
14:53:51 <TheBlueWizard> lol
14:53:52 <Robert> He'll have to browse a bit :)
14:54:17 <TheBlueWizard> lmao....skylan just parroted Robert's word!
14:54:21 <Robert> http://www.ultratechnology.com/chatlog.htm
14:54:41 <Robert> That's theft. I'll sue him.
14:55:22 <Robert> I440r: Heh.. the _first_ bit benchmark alone took almost 5 mins.
14:55:29 <Robert> The "bit 1" thing.
14:55:35 <Robert> "bits 1"
14:55:39 <Robert> Now it's on "bits 2".
14:56:05 <I440r> yes. the second takes less time i thinik
14:56:10 <I440r> i forget 
14:56:12 <I440r> heh
14:57:23 --- join: skylan (sjh@Riverview10.tbaytel.net) joined #forth
14:58:17 <TheBlueWizard> hiya skylan again
15:02:16 <neobrat> okay -- (mind was just blown) -- reading that transcript -- what on earth is "sourceless programming" supposed to be?
15:02:52 <I440r> :)
15:03:22 <neobrat> *Jeff thinks to his computer, "Draw window" -- it happens*
15:03:36 * TheBlueWizard has a display of various shiny new heads on sale here....cheap cuz the minds get blown all the time here!!! :)
15:03:48 <neobrat> haha
15:07:14 <I440r> neobrat how did you find this channel btw ?
15:07:46 <neobrat> total luck. I use Wings3D to do some modelling in. I decided to type #forth for shits and giggles to see what would happen
15:08:09 <I440r> :)
15:08:17 <neobrat> I went to a GBA programming channel first, but everyone there is 14 years old learning C for the first time and never even heard of FORTH
15:08:26 <neobrat> let alone what RPN even stands for
15:10:12 <I440r> lol
15:10:20 <TheBlueWizard> interesting....I found this channel via /list when I decided to scope out what else other than #debian was available on irc.openprojects.net (I went to #debian thanks to info on www.debian.org :)
15:10:52 <neobrat> actually this is one of the first ever channels ive been to where people actually CHAT
15:11:50 <TheBlueWizard> :)
15:12:40 <TheBlueWizard> there are a few good channels...but, yeah, a damn rarity...and we got colorful people here....people with CHARACTERS! :)
15:13:15 <neobrat> Well, I /personally/ only have 1 character -- but its good to know you can go psycho in a second, bluewiz ;)
15:14:19 <I440r> in sane *twitch*
15:14:21 <I440r> im
15:14:27 <TheBlueWizard> lol...my pleasurrrrre! :)
15:14:46 * TheBlueWizard pokjes I440r for a good measure
15:16:24 <I440r> :P
15:17:08 <neobrat> okay another simFORTH (name of my forth) question:
15:17:27 <neobrat> would you ever be interested in having direct access to registers in forth OUTSIDE the assembler?
15:17:43 <neobrat> do you could do : my-add r0 r1 + ;
15:17:44 <I440r> not sure
15:18:03 <neobrat> be hella faster than saving to memory and fetching
15:18:29 <TheBlueWizard> that'd make Forth quite implementation dependent....I would not recommend that
15:18:59 <neobrat> okay, thats a definite downside
15:19:07 <neobrat> any potential (other than speed) upsides?
15:19:08 <TheBlueWizard> I would suggest that your compiler generate optimized code instead
15:19:13 <I440r> well isforth is already very specific to both linux and teh x86 :)
15:19:52 <neobrat> the compiler uses direct-threaded code when it compiles
15:20:03 <neobrat> so in theory it is about as optimized as it gets
15:20:37 <TheBlueWizard> I440r: true....but remember the guy who once offer to port isforth to PPC Linux?  there is my argument against having it too fixated on one architecture
15:21:22 <Fractal> I440r : Also, remember when you tried to port it to my oBSD machine? Any more progress on that?
15:22:00 <neobrat> Right now there is only 2 numbers in my compiler that are machine dependant
15:22:04 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-QuebecCity-ppp82100.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth
15:22:14 <neobrat> the base address of the ROM and base address of the RAM
15:22:28 <neobrat> i'd like to keep it that way
15:22:36 <I440r> fractal not yet, ive got alot on my plate atm but the plan isnt abandoned
15:22:43 <Robert> Hi wossname.
15:22:43 <I440r> i want it to work in fbsd
15:22:46 <TheBlueWizard> neobrat: the assembler is already there, and besides if anyone feel an urge to access a register, s/he can roll up a code like this:  CODE R1@  push {r1} END-CODE
15:22:49 <neobrat> but I have no problem making it architecture dependant
15:22:51 <Robert> wossname: That log was old :)
15:22:55 <wossname> hi robert
15:22:57 <wossname> you deceived me :(
15:23:03 <Robert> http://www.ultratechnology.com/chatlog.htm ;)
15:23:05 <neobrat> that's true
15:23:17 <wossname> is this the same old thing that happened months ago?
15:23:18 <TheBlueWizard> hiya wossname
15:23:19 <Robert> wossname: So, no Chuck in here now ;)
15:23:23 <Robert> wossname: Yes.
15:23:35 <Robert> wossname: But please, stay here and discuss some Forth :)
15:23:40 <Robert> wossname: I know you admire it.
15:23:56 <wossname> hi bluewiz :D
15:24:00 <wossname> yes, forth is cool.
15:24:28 <Robert> You've written a little Forth, right?
15:24:56 <wossname> yes, so i'm already a veteran
15:25:10 --- join: bugslayer (guest@62.77.213.177) joined #forth
15:25:20 <Robert> wossname: We love you!
15:25:23 <Robert> Hi bugslayer.
15:25:33 <bugslayer> shl
15:25:34 <bugslayer> er
15:25:35 <bugslayer> sup
15:25:55 <TheBlueWizard> hiya bugslayer
15:25:57 <Fractal> bugslayer : About your comment that words aren't functions: What you mean to say is that forth words aren't *C functions*.
15:26:10 <bugslayer> no
15:26:40 <bugslayer> words aren't functions at all.  the functions paradigm _must_ be thrown out the window when thinking in forth words
15:26:52 <Robert> Why?
15:26:54 <bugslayer> or else your code won't be forth
15:27:24 <Fractal> No, a word fits perhaps more accurately into the mathematical function definition than "C functions" do.
15:27:24 <Robert> Heh. Pushing IP to the return stack and jumping is as much of a function as it can get, imho.
15:27:45 <Robert> Or less, since it can return an infinite number of values.
15:28:01 <bugslayer> C fnunctions have local variables and namespaces and crap like that
15:28:07 <bugslayer> as well as various functions of other languages
15:29:05 <bugslayer> and those things don't apply to forth words because forth words are different
15:29:07 <TheBlueWizard> bugslayer: uh....some languages, like Lisp and Python, permit returning of multiple values
15:29:13 <Fractal> That's inconsequential to what a function is.
15:29:39 <bugslayer> granted, attempts have been made to make words act more like a C function, with local variables implemented with { } and other silly things..
15:29:41 <Fractal> A function is essential an abstracted action that is defined by it's inputs and it's outputs.
15:30:04 <bugslayer> thebluewizard: i didn't make a comment about returning multiple values, that was robert's comment
15:30:07 <Fractal> Regardless of local namings, etc.
15:30:49 <neobrat> What's wrong with local variables?
15:30:56 * TheBlueWizard is now watching TV news
15:31:48 <bugslayer> poor coding methodology
15:31:54 <Fractal> There is essentially nothing wrong with local variables. Some people prefer not to use them however. The issue is local naming, though. Forth has very poor handling of this, which can be a big problem if 2 words ought to be called the same thing depending on context.
15:32:37 <Fractal> This is, IMO, one of forth's most signifigant drawbacks.
15:34:05 <bugslayer> why don't you go email chuck moore and ask him what he thinks about it and how to fix it? :P
15:34:13 <bugslayer> he's very open to emails
15:35:08 <Fractal> Perhaps. I'm already familiar with his views though.
15:36:47 <I440r> fractal u mean like * in c ?
15:36:47 <bugslayer> so? he's by no means a static person, and is continually trying to push his paraidigm..    if your ideas about what forth _should_ be conflicts with chuck moore's ideas, then maybe your ideas are crap, because forth is a philosophy more than a language ..
15:37:02 <I440r> overloading is absolutely the most evil thing ive ever heared of
15:37:18 <bugslayer> i440r: overloading is ez in forth..  : 3 4 ;
15:37:25 <bugslayer> unless we're talking about something else??
15:37:29 <I440r> bug no
15:37:38 <I440r> thats not overloading the way c does it
15:37:45 <I440r> the * operator has multiple functionality
15:37:50 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc3-login17.megatrondata.com) joined #forth
15:37:56 <I440r> which functionality that is used depends on the context its used in
15:37:58 <Fractal> I440r : You're talking about operator overloading, right?
15:38:04 <I440r>  void *blah is a pointer
15:38:09 <I440r>  x * y is a multiplication
15:38:25 <I440r> ' * is foobar isnt overloading *
15:38:29 <I440r> its revectoring it
15:38:43 <I440r> erm isnt overloading blah i mean
15:39:00 <I440r> defered words are not forths way of doing overloading
15:39:02 <neobrat> hell, the english language is "overloaded" =)
15:39:22 <I440r> and its also the most difficult language there is to learn
15:39:36 <Fractal> I have no particular affinity towards operator overload, though I see nothing wrong with it. In most cases you can always tell which operation you want by context.
15:40:04 <Fractal> No, I'm talking about not being able to have 2 data types with a member called, say, "next
15:40:06 <Fractal> " in them.
15:40:36 <Fractal> You always know what version of next you're referring to, depending on the context of the data structure.
15:40:39 <neobrat> I440r: Exactly, and programming is done in english. This is something I've thought to myself many times
15:41:12 <I440r> fractal thats a case of teh compiler deciding for you what you mean
15:41:27 <I440r> forth doesnt NEED to handle that sort of stuff because you just TELL it what you mean
15:41:32 <I440r> much simpler
15:42:22 <Fractal> I440r : In a sense, yes the compiler is deciding, but why would you want to reference a data structure offset into a different data structure? That's simply bad programming style.
15:42:54 <neobrat> Fractal: I'd have to disagree there
15:43:20 * Robert gives the BYE command to his brain. Night all.
15:43:26 <neobrat> the language you choose limits abilities. If dereferencing is the quickest way to get the job done, then by all means do it
15:43:27 <Fractal> Night man.
15:43:30 <I440r> fractal you wouldnt do that :)
15:43:32 <proteusguy> later Robert
15:43:33 <neobrat> cya robert
15:43:56 <I440r> so you wouldnt need teh compiler to sort it all out for you when you do :)
15:44:00 <Fractal> I440r : Then why allow it? It's just another easily preventable error that could go wrong.
15:44:27 <neobrat> hehe im being reminded of our chat earlier about the type stack
15:44:50 <I440r> fractal why "disallow" things at all. i wont disallow the user from doing STUPID things because that would prevent him from doing CLEVER things
15:45:43 <Fractal> What could possibly be clever about referencing into a data structure with misappropriate offsets?
15:46:09 <neobrat> altering byte ordering
15:46:15 <I440r> well, just because you cant think of something clever using that technique why prevent someone else from doing it
15:46:19 <I440r> besides
15:46:44 <Fractal> neobrat : Huh?
15:46:45 --- quit: Shain (Remote closed the connection)
15:46:47 <I440r> if i stop you from doing a dum thing "A"
15:46:55 <I440r> it might also stop you from doing a clever thing "b"
15:47:21 <neobrat> just throwing out a possibility for using bad offsets in pointers... converting from big->little endian
15:47:37 <neobrat> i dont mean to say i /would/ do it ;)
15:48:42 <neobrat> I think FORTH'ers have a funny "paradox" about them
15:48:53 <neobrat> we're always striving for faster/smaller code
15:49:11 <bugslayer> the forth way is the HARD way
15:49:26 <neobrat> yet each language we write, etc. adds a layer of abstraction which will slow down 
15:49:29 <bugslayer> and is considered by the forthers to be the RIGHT way :P
15:49:30 <neobrat> and bloat
15:49:38 <bugslayer> but only by the forthers
15:49:40 <neobrat> no matter what...
15:49:43 <bugslayer> because of their philosophy
15:49:50 <neobrat> bug: yep =)
15:50:27 <neobrat> I'm sorry to say this, but seriously, programming language (forth included) is a way around the problem instead of a solution to it
15:50:46 <neobrat> the /best/ way to write code for a computer is ASM.
15:50:55 <neobrat> You want something different, you need a different computer
15:51:31 <neobrat> Forth'ers i think are frustrated because we see the problem and can never find the solution 
15:51:41 <neobrat> only more ways around it that "appear" better
15:51:57 <I440r> neobrat yes but forth SOLVES alot of the problems with other languages
15:52:01 <neobrat> most everyone else never even sees the problem
15:52:08 <I440r> by simplifying the issue
15:52:18 <I440r> no need for local variables, or ANY named variables at all
15:52:56 <neobrat> Those (IMHO) are great ideas, but impracticle -- writing an entire (modern) OS w/o any named variables?
15:53:15 <neobrat> Don't get me wrong -- I'd love to see it ! ;)
15:53:25 <Fractal> I440r : Unfortunatley, forth doesn't permit functions to be non named.
15:53:30 <neobrat> I just think we'd need different hardware to do it
15:54:11 <Fractal> You can't pass the functional "3 +" to a function.
15:54:42 <Fractal> It must be created in an append-only heap before being executed.
15:54:43 <neobrat> :NONAME 3 + ; CONSTANT my-func
15:55:04 <neobrat> granted, it isn't as nice as LISP
15:55:08 <neobrat> but it works
15:55:25 <Fractal> Actually, it isn't nearly as functional as lisp.
15:55:44 <neobrat> no doubt... but if you want a functional language, use lisp
15:55:55 <neobrat> FORTH isn't a solve-all by any means
15:56:12 <neobrat> its always about using the tool for the job
15:56:42 <Fractal> Well, incidentally lisp isn't a functional language. What I meant was "practical" as the lisp version.
15:57:16 <Fractal> There are some nearly-functional dialects of lisp.
15:57:47 <Fractal> But the problem is that the unnamed functions exist at fixed offsets.
15:57:57 <Fractal> You can't pass a function back on the stack, for instance.
15:57:57 <neobrat> And are fixed themselved
15:58:04 <Fractal> Yes.
15:58:09 <Fractal> Exactly.
15:58:41 <neobrat> I agree, (defun my-func (x) (lambda (n) (+ n x)) is impossible
15:58:59 <Fractal> Yeah. And it can be extremly useful.
15:59:15 <I440r> and unreadable too :)
15:59:17 <I440r> and recursive
15:59:20 <I440r> :P
15:59:30 <Fractal> Actually, that's not recursive.
15:59:40 <Fractal> Or unreadable. :)
15:59:55 <neobrat> Anyone w/o significant xp in FORTH thinks its much more unreadable
16:00:05 <I440r> the function x uses itself as one if its own arguements
16:00:09 <bugslayer> chuck likes recursive doesn't he ??
16:00:11 <I440r> that looks recursive to me
16:00:27 <Fractal> Consider a forth newcomer looking at : my-func ." Sup?" key ." You pressed " emit cr ;
16:00:31 <Fractal> Or something.
16:00:36 <neobrat> I440r: x is an argument... my-func returns a function to add x to a value
16:02:02 <Fractal> I440r strongly disbelieves in recursion for reasons of efficiency.
16:02:29 <Fractal> Recursion is extremly handy though. It's one of the only ways you can write "provably correct" ode.
16:02:30 <Fractal> Code.
16:02:50 <Fractal> And not necessarily less efficient.
16:03:32 <neobrat> recursion is only inefficient based on implementation
16:03:42 <Fractal> Precisely.
16:03:49 * TheBlueWizard is back, reading all the chatterings
16:03:50 <neobrat> recursion in C is AWEFUL -- simply because you are passing all parameters on the stack
16:04:04 <Fractal> neobrat : Most things in C are awful. :)
16:04:04 <neobrat> versus in a loop where nothing is being done
16:04:13 <TheBlueWizard> I have no problem determining whether * means multiply or a dereferencing in plain C.  Also, I think Navajo is REALLY hard to learn...harder than English.  I have no problems with recursion either.
16:04:28 <neobrat> welcome back
16:04:30 <neobrat> ;)
16:05:20 <neobrat> In FORTH, theoretically, recursion should add little or no overhead to a program
16:05:32 <Fractal> Tail recursion, that is.
16:05:39 <neobrat> yes
16:05:48 <Fractal> Actually, I believe chuck advocates a kind of recursion that looks like ;recurse
16:05:58 <Fractal> Which is quite elegant, actually.
16:06:06 <TheBlueWizard> neobrat: it depends on how the data is passed.  for example in quicksort algorithm it is most expeditious to pass parameters on a stack
16:06:11 <I440r> however, for any REAL application (discout  ackerman) anything you can do WITH recursion you can do better without
16:06:21 <I440r> ive never seen any REAL applications that prove otherwise
16:07:01 <neobrat> Well, I HATE parsing though a 3D BSP polygon tree and adding to it without recursion ;)
16:07:20 <neobrat> But for most things I would agree, I440r
16:07:27 <Fractal> And walking a filesystem without recursion is actually kind of silly.
16:07:50 <Fractal> Often imperative looping just adds needless complexity.
16:08:19 <Fractal> For marginal performance increases.
16:08:24 <TheBlueWizard> there are a number of algortithms where recursion is the best approach...though I must admit that in my work (not at home, of course), I can't recall seeing a use of recursion there....but at home, I use recursion a lot....my MathBoard project is an excellent example
16:08:24 <I440r> neobrat does bsp trees ???
16:08:25 <I440r> cool!
16:08:33 <I440r> ill need your help sometime in teh future then :)
16:08:38 <neobrat> I program lots of things ;)
16:08:46 <TheBlueWizard> what is a bsp tree?
16:08:51 <Fractal> Yeah, huh?
16:08:59 <neobrat> Binary Spacial Partitioning
16:09:17 <Fractal> Hm... Never heard of it.
16:09:26 <neobrat> Basically a binary tree for polygons (3D triangles)
16:09:46 <TheBlueWizard> I see...cool
16:09:50 <neobrat> You order the triangles by depth so you draw always from front to back or back to front
16:09:58 <neobrat> based on what you want to do
16:10:03 <I440r> its a way of handling a painters algorithm with circular overlapped objects
16:10:08 <TheBlueWizard> got it, generally
16:10:22 <Fractal> Ah, painters algorithm. I see now.
16:10:22 <neobrat> Anyways, ...
16:10:34 <neobrat> When I brought up the idea of "English" earlier
16:10:42 <neobrat> it was to describe a kind of programming problem
16:10:49 <neobrat> We think in terms of X = 1 + 2
16:11:00 <Fractal> Incidentally, you'd have a better chance with german than english...
16:11:02 <TheBlueWizard> obviously to render it, one must (re)arrange the tree so that it can be traversed in proper order for rendering purpose, I believe....right?
16:11:04 <neobrat> so we want to code that way
16:11:22 <neobrat> BlueWiz: sometimes
16:11:55 <TheBlueWizard> neobrat: um... "1+2" isn't tied to English; it is just a standard math notation used widely
16:11:58 <neobrat> the fastest is to render from front to back -- that way you don't keep over writing video memory of the same pixel
16:12:23 <TheBlueWizard> figure as much....I kinda grok the idea
16:12:25 <neobrat> however, if you want transparent images, you need to go back to front
16:13:02 --- quit: tcn (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
16:13:20 <TheBlueWizard> and if there is a combo of solid and transparent?  more complicated....
16:13:22 <bugslayer> neobrat:  hey, it'd be really cool to be able to attach a keyboard to a gameboy and install forth on it :)
16:13:25 <I440r> yes. reverse painters
16:13:58 <neobrat> blue: yes, bug: yeah, but I'm the worst electrical person on the planet :)
16:14:04 <Fractal> I don't know if I agree. The human mind thinks of concepts and how they are related, not in the small, deliberate steps that comprise most "conventional languages", forth included.
16:14:49 <bugslayer> neobrat: well i wonder how hard it could be to adapt a pda keyboard to the gameboy port, i think it should be possible
16:15:12 <neobrat> Fractal: Maybe I'm not expressing my idea well. What I'm meaning to get to is that C is popular because it works how we think
16:15:16 <bugslayer> once you get the right wires connected to the gameboy, then you've gotten over the main hurdle i guess
16:15:24 <neobrat> FORTH is difficult for many because it works differently
16:15:27 <neobrat> same with LISP
16:15:36 <TheBlueWizard> yup
16:15:44 <neobrat> however, C is bad because it isn't how the computer "thinks"
16:16:08 <bugslayer> yeah
16:16:09 <Fractal> Well, I don't know how many people think in pointers and dereferencing....
16:16:16 <neobrat> Most of us here have done enough programming to know that { x=1+2; return x;} is AWEFUL in assembly
16:16:39 <neobrat> however most people moving to forth try that first: 1 2 + x ! x @ ;
16:16:50 <wossname> with something like that, the compiler can fix it ;0
16:17:09 <neobrat> only because something with brains wrote the compiler ;)
16:17:49 <wossname> well, something without brains won't write good code in any language
16:17:59 <neobrat> hehe point taken ;)
16:18:24 <Fractal> Well, C has abstracted away a few details, most signifigantly fortran's expression sytax, but it is still closely tied to the computer.
16:19:08 <Fractal> You still spend much more time working out the implementation of a problem than it's solution.
16:19:19 <neobrat> :)
16:19:31 <bugslayer> this whole argument has gotten a bit convoluted..  "forth lacks feature 'x' oh no!" "but feature 'x' isn't relevant" "blahblah"
16:20:02 <bugslayer> fractal: you are really fixed on the features that forth "lacks"
16:20:02 <Fractal> Is that a problem? :)
16:20:09 <neobrat> I think to try and make forth a "be all" defeats the phylisophcal (sp?) idea of forth
16:20:22 <bugslayer> forth lacks 'x' yay! cheers! everyone celebrate!
16:20:28 <bugslayer> s/'x'/feature 'x'
16:20:43 <Fractal> bugslayer : Well I think it's pretty obvious that everyone in this discussion is familiar with forth's advantages. What should we be doing? Sitting around patting eachother's backs?
16:20:58 <neobrat> to me, what makes forth so great vs something like C is that forth is SMALL. There is almost no optimizing of the kernel required
16:21:13 <neobrat> all the optimization comes from the programmer not doing stupid thinkgs like DUP DROP
16:21:25 <Fractal> neobrat : Yes, I'm particularly attracted to forth's implementation simplicity.
16:21:25 <bugslayer> forth isn't really a general purpose language, only a handful of people can use forth.   forth (AS A LANGUAGE) is solving a different problem, offers different things to the programmers than C does.
16:22:00 <I440r> bugslayer ive never seen any application that forth doesnt suit itself to quite well
16:22:11 <bugslayer> it can be used to code anything
16:22:14 <bugslayer> i'm not saying it cant
16:22:18 <bugslayer> i'm saying something different
16:22:30 <bugslayer> as a language, forth is solving a different programmer problem
16:22:40 <I440r> yes
16:22:44 <bugslayer> certain programers have certain needs and philosophies
16:22:50 <bugslayer> so some of them need C
16:22:55 <bugslayer> some of them need forth
16:22:58 <I440r> programming a specific problem in forth has all the same complexaties
16:23:11 <I440r> it doesnt remove any of the complexaties of solving teh problem
16:23:19 --- quit: skylan ("Reconnecting")
16:23:20 <I440r> it just makes you think about the problem in a different way
16:23:22 --- join: skylan (sjh@Rockcliffe4.tbaytel.net) joined #forth
16:23:41 <TheBlueWizard> lol....that's optimization! ;)  actually I seriously think the optimization should be done on parts that the coder cannot optimize at that level.  for example:  (trying to remember a good example...then searching for my "Dragon" book and I couldn't find it...dammit!)
16:23:50 <bugslayer> forth is more of a "hey, lets find the elegant solution for the problem.  let's simplify the problem instead of solving it directly"
16:24:05 <neobrat> no, but solving a math problem (the same problem) in Algebra vs. Calculus can be completely different. and for each, one /will/ be better than the other
16:24:19 <bugslayer> C is more of "let's solve the problem directly, oooh, i've got pointers and dereferencing and overloading1
16:24:28 <bugslayer> and i've got algebra-ish stuff!"
16:24:35 * TheBlueWizard agrees with neobrat re: Forth and C having different niches
16:25:26 <I440r> btw tbw (heh) how do you feel ?
16:25:47 <bugslayer> i think that if you are the right kind of coder, forth IS the ideal programming language and you can code ANYTHING in forth with ease..  (none of this silver-bullet nonsense) ;)
16:25:54 <neobrat> oh crap *just saw the time* I gotta go ....
16:26:03 <TheBlueWizard> some math problems can be solved using algebra (sometimes with tricks added ;) or with calculus...but there are some which can be solved only with calculus
16:26:06 <neobrat> my students are gonna kill me (literally)
16:26:06 <I440r> neobrat be regular here :P
16:26:13 <bugslayer> neobrat: come back again, we enjoyed meeting you very much :)
16:26:13 <I440r> this is your home now :P
16:26:16 * TheBlueWizard has a masters in math and does know his stuff
16:26:19 * I440r unlocks the door for neobrat
16:26:22 <neobrat> okay i will 
16:26:34 <neobrat> hasta all, prolly see you tomorrow
16:26:36 <TheBlueWizard> bye neobrat
16:26:40 --- part: neobrat left #forth
16:27:06 <bugslayer> heh, what a fun day, first ree joins, then neobrat appears :D
16:27:14 <I440r> neobrat is a teacher ??
16:27:16 <I440r> cool
16:27:25 <TheBlueWizard> well, #forth is getting more fun now with a new guy here :)
16:27:50 <bugslayer> there are lots of cool guys that've appeared on #forth but haven't become regulars :(
16:27:55 <bugslayer> i'm thinking of bigboytoddy
16:27:56 <I440r> :)
16:27:57 <TheBlueWizard> I440r: apparently...too bad we don't know what neobrat is teaching
16:27:58 <bugslayer> and several others
16:28:07 <I440r> yea
16:28:12 <I440r> where teh heck is he :P
16:28:27 <I440r> wheres mrreach too!
16:28:29 <I440r> dammit!
16:28:31 <bugslayer> send out a message on clf "bigboytoddy, we need u! luv #forth" ;)
16:29:08 <bugslayer> mrreach is trying to avoid get distracted by forth
16:29:23 <bugslayer> besides, you and him had an argument last time apparently
16:30:03 <TheBlueWizard> and I haven't seen kc5tja (sp?) in a while now
16:30:48 <I440r> yea kc5 shud come back in here too
16:31:09 <bugslayer> yeah he left #forth and he's doing school as well working full-time so he's quite busy
16:31:43 <TheBlueWizard> kc5? I see
16:31:55 <bugslayer> yeah
16:32:22 <bugslayer> he's pursuing a degree in physics and possibly will go for masters and maybe even phd
16:35:06 <TheBlueWizard> ah...cool! I originally planned to get a degree in physics....well, at least I have 4+ courses in my belt, plus a small bunch of physics textbook...I love theoretical (math) physics :)
16:36:05 <bugslayer> he's prolly a little more applied, he builds a tesla engine with a friend
16:36:31 <bugslayer> he even built a little engine out of cardboard a disc and a straw
16:36:36 <bugslayer> a cd disc
16:36:37 <TheBlueWizard> um...tesla coil, you mean?
16:36:49 <bugslayer> you blow it and it spins the disc really efficiently
16:37:09 * TheBlueWizard hasn't heard of tesla engine
16:37:19 <bugslayer> well maybe it's a different name
16:37:25 <bugslayer> i sorta forget
16:37:40 <TheBlueWizard> ok hehe
16:39:50 <bugslayer> er
16:39:53 <bugslayer> it's a turbine
16:39:57 <bugslayer> tesla turbine?
16:40:31 <TheBlueWizard> you can google on tesla {something}...at least I know of Tesla coil
16:40:55 <bugslayer> google tesla turbine
16:40:58 <bugslayer> it turns up some pages
16:41:09 <bugslayer> it is the tesla turbine
16:41:41 <TheBlueWizard> you found it already?
16:41:44 <bugslayer> so he built one with a cd and a straw and a cardboard box
16:41:59 <bugslayer> and i believe he was working on a more serious one with a friend
16:42:02 * TheBlueWizard decides to google for it then
16:42:24 <bugslayer> they're trying to adapt it for operqating in reverse, that is, generating air flow
16:42:45 <bugslayer> and they're working on having the turbine lift itself first
16:43:12 <bugslayer> the tesla turbine is quite interesting..  uses a property of air that..
16:43:57 <bugslayer> er, adhesion
16:43:57 <bugslayer> the air sticks to the discs and aligns up nicely or something
16:43:58 <TheBlueWizard> hehe
16:44:07 <bugslayer> and the turbine is _very_ efficient
16:44:32 <TheBlueWizard> are you looking at http://www.animatedsoftware.com/pumpglos/teslapum.htm, eh?
16:44:43 <bugslayer> nope
16:44:57 <bugslayer> checking it now
16:45:41 <bugslayer> um
16:45:46 <bugslayer> those discs are different
16:45:52 <bugslayer> go check a different page :P
16:46:04 <bugslayer> er
16:46:06 <bugslayer> nevermind
16:46:16 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...ok
16:48:46 <TheBlueWizard> also: http://www.fuellesspower.com/tesla.html --- from what it claims, we could as well eventually kiss centralized power plants goodbye :)
16:49:54 <I440r> he would have been able to aswell
16:50:02 <TheBlueWizard> then again....caveat emptor :)
16:50:08 <I440r> he wanted to implement a through the ground distroubion method
16:50:15 <I440r> where everyone gets their electricity FOR FREE!!!
16:51:15 <TheBlueWizard> ground as electricity transmission?  unusual proposition...though I doubt the viability
16:53:40 <I440r> its what he was working on when he died
16:53:44 <I440r> i believe
16:55:08 <I440r> well i gotta go do some coding so i gotta get away from irc :)
16:55:16 <I440r> ill see yall again soon :)
16:55:28 <I440r> later tbw/thin/etc :)
16:55:31 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again!")
16:56:04 <TheBlueWizard> as I remember from PBS show on N. Tesla, he was trying to develop a truly audacious device that would send electricity literally up and across the air...think of power distribution minus the copper wires...a wireless power distribution, if you will
16:56:22 <TheBlueWizard> aww....too late!
16:59:12 <bugslayer> tbw: i heard he successfully transmitted electricity through the ground for a mile
16:59:28 <bugslayer> and it was a public event..
16:59:47 <bugslayer> maybe it wasn't through the ground
16:59:54 <bugslayer> but it wasn't through wires
17:01:03 <TheBlueWizard> it is possible to transmit power on a very small scale, and it isn't difficult (though you would likely break today's laws regulating radio frequencies)
17:01:24 <TheBlueWizard> but the method that I am aware of isn't really efficient
17:01:25 <bugslayer> laws are meant to be broken tho ;P
17:01:46 <TheBlueWizard> lol...and jails are meant for those lawbreakers :)
17:02:57 <bugslayer> i think it would be much more interesting if there were no restrictions on radio frequencies, etc
17:03:09 <bugslayer> ;))
17:04:18 <TheBlueWizard> agreed...mail your sweet lil friend blandly known as mr. congressperson :)  I don't bother mailing them cuz I consider most of them to be corrupt anyway
17:05:13 <bugslayer> i'll wait until after the revolution if you please
17:06:00 <TheBlueWizard> revolution?  oh cool! B)
17:06:49 <bugslayer> some material i've read (which i found interesting, but i don't agree one way or the other) have suggested that the u.s government is following the same civilization patterns as rome and other civilizations
17:07:27 <bugslayer> where the political system gets more and more tyrannical ("demopublicans" ?) and then eventually there's a crash
17:07:38 <bugslayer> of course, there's also problems such as social security
17:07:43 <bugslayer> and government debt
17:08:32 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...of course if the gov't stops being responsive to people's needs, it can eventually crash...the rate of crashing vary widely, unfortunately
17:08:52 <bugslayer> if the government slashed all of its budgets in a big way and streamlined all its bearucratic functions, it would be more likely to survive
17:09:07 <bugslayer> why would it crash if it's not responsive?
17:09:18 <bugslayer> it has the ability to influence people
17:09:21 <bugslayer> it uses the media
17:09:31 <bugslayer> only a handful of americans vote..
17:09:52 <bugslayer> and then the ruling party claim its rule is the mandate of the majority
17:09:54 <bugslayer> which is not so
17:10:09 <TheBlueWizard> if people don't get the needed services from the gov't (e.g. pavement work), they will eventually turn to other places
17:10:24 <TheBlueWizard> often with their feet
17:10:38 <bugslayer> thats a very slow process
17:10:57 <bugslayer> most people will just suffer for awhile before being "hey! let's fix this" and by then it'll be too late
17:11:02 <bugslayer> like the frog in the boiling pot
17:11:08 <bugslayer> if the temp rises slowly, it doesn't jump out
17:11:21 <TheBlueWizard> yup...that's why I said the rate of crashing vary...and if the gov't get clueful, the crashing would get stopped, averted, whatever
17:11:43 <bugslayer> it's hard for the gov't to get clueful, even if many within it are clueful
17:11:48 <Fractal> The problem with the American government is that it's laws are not written by the people, they're written by large corporations.
17:12:10 <TheBlueWizard> in some sense, true (I work for fed govt by the way)
17:12:59 <bugslayer> there's many people involved in the gov't and there's many uh.. patronage.. people elected or given jobs because they voted in the ruling party, etc etc..
17:13:30 <bugslayer> there's a whole bunch of interellationships that really don't encourage the gov't to do what's besst for th the country
17:13:40 <Fractal> Well, America slowly began the process of inorporation after the civil war, and by WW2, it was completly run by and for private interests.
17:13:56 <bugslayer> thebluewizard: what if i told you your job and the vast majority of government employees are all harmful to the economy?
17:14:30 <bugslayer> because the government pays for the government employees by taking "money" out of the economy, where it is lost to the economy forever
17:14:34 <TheBlueWizard> yeah, kinda...though the ones that the prez picked usually have to get Congress's approval.  I can't think of any office that a prez can pick a person for without getting an approval first though
17:14:48 <bugslayer> i put quotation marks because it's not "money" but it's "value" or "production"
17:14:55 <bugslayer> money is a derivative of production..
17:15:25 <Fractal> bugslayer : Well, you'd be misled. Private interests have laucnhed a massive disinformation campaing explicitly attacking federalism, because it is an obstacle to optimized profits.
17:15:36 <Fractal> Campaign, that is.
17:15:40 <bugslayer> the producer gets taxed, and that is production lost to him, and then that money is redirected to government employees, which aren't technically producing (from the economy's perspective)
17:15:49 <bugslayer> so production is lost
17:15:59 <bugslayer> and that hurts the economy
17:16:01 <TheBlueWizard> I work in an IT section...IT is important, and besides, I can get another job if necessary.  I am not frightened by your blathering at all
17:16:05 <Fractal> bugslayer : Explain to me how a government employee is not producing.
17:17:42 <bugslayer> fractal: for the most part, they are not part of the economy, they are not selling products or services and buying products or services, especially in an efficient way..  all the money that the government employee has for purchasing services from the economy was STOLEN from the economy, and thus, it does not contribute money to the economy
17:18:17 <bugslayer> note:  in some cases, there is contribution to the economy, but overall, there is a significant loss to the economy. 
17:18:20 <TheBlueWizard> besides, you erred in assuming that the deduction always equate a permanent unproductive loss.  for example, some of your tax dollars go to military, which is working hard to destroy Al Qaeda at the moment...is that a waste of money?  if you think so, then I would consider your life a waste cuz Al Qaeda suicide bombers would gleefully destroy ya! :)
17:19:02 * TheBlueWizard thinks bugslayer really needs a SERIOUS EDUCATION....*sheesh*
17:19:05 <Fractal> bugslayer : Ok, so let me get this straight... The government provides no products or services to the people. Is that what you're saying?
17:19:07 <bugslayer> production is lost to the economy, and that's quite sad because production kept within the economy has a MULTIPLER effect.  (thru loans more money can appear in the economy)
17:19:24 --- quit: wossname ("Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over IRC.")
17:19:46 <bugslayer> thebluewizard: i have taken economics classes and read a variety of economics books
17:19:55 <bugslayer> and believe me, i know what i'm talking about
17:20:08 <bugslayer> i'm not arguing getting rid of all government employees
17:20:11 <bugslayer> not at all
17:20:13 <TheBlueWizard> economics alone does not a whole picture make.....
17:20:47 <Fractal> You're trying to say that for some unspecified reason, the federal government's services aren't a part of the economy?
17:21:14 <bugslayer> all i want to point out is that, if the beaurucracy is reduced as much as possible, huge savings will be realized, because the production kept within the economy will be able to realize a multiplier effect
17:21:58 <bugslayer> fractal: if the money was taken from people (tax) and redistributed efficiently to the poor people and to the services, then there's no real loss
17:22:05 <bugslayer> but it is not distributed efficiently
17:22:16 <bugslayer> there's a massive beaurucracy in between
17:22:26 <bugslayer> and there's salary for all the employees
17:22:37 <Fractal> bugslayer : The beaurucracy in the government is of marginal effect compared to the massive corruption in private sector. If you reduced the federal government, the economy would crumble purely by the corruption.
17:22:40 <bugslayer> and that salary, is money lost from the economy
17:22:45 <bugslayer> for the most part
17:23:12 <bugslayer> fractal: a few large corrupt corporations does not a corrupt economy make
17:23:15 <TheBlueWizard> what about pollution regulation? must it be dismantled?  so we would let those corrupt companies pollute any way they want?  or how about archivals?  should we burn all archives so that we can eliminate a bureaucracy?  ha ha ha...you boogerhead
17:23:45 <Fractal> A corporation's purpose is to take money out of the economy and deposit it in non-moving investments.
17:24:19 <Fractal> bugslayer : A "few" large corrupt companies? You *must* be an american...
17:24:31 <bugslayer> thebluewizard: no, not all of the government must be reduced.  do you not think there is any redundant or unnecessary organizations within the government?  can 5 people be laid off?  can 100 ?
17:25:22 <TheBlueWizard> actually, in my IT division, we are rather understaffed...I am doing the work of one and a half people already!
17:25:27 <bugslayer> thebluewizard: i'm NOT arguing against total demantelization of the beaurucracy..  there are many things that are necessary to keep the country save and together
17:25:43 <bugslayer> safe even
17:26:08 --- quit: proteusguy ("Client Exiting")
17:26:16 <bugslayer> all i'm saying is the more streamlined the government is, the better off the economy is
17:26:21 <TheBlueWizard> in fact fed govt really need more IT people...and then you complain, oh that is more people, cut them outta here, do more with less....yeah right (sarcasm)
17:26:52 <bugslayer> thebluewizard: but that's just your it division, there are 7 million government employees or more
17:27:21 <Fractal> The entire campaign of "rolling back the government" has been led by capitalist intrests in order to increase profits, and there is little evidence to suggest that the federal government is inefficient or bloated.
17:27:48 <bugslayer> a salary to a government employee of 100,000 bucks is probably worth twice as much in the economy
17:27:55 <bugslayer> 200,000
17:29:17 <TheBlueWizard> sure, there are certain redundancies, like USDA and FDA have some areas that I thought should be separated out, not overlapped.  Unfortunately, restructuring them requires an act of Congress....again, I'm pointing to Congress :)
17:30:26 <bugslayer> fractal: historically the government has blamed a poor economy on businesses, and has encouraged people to blame "capitalist interests" for a poor economy, and has encouraged people to see businesses as mostly corrupt.  guess what.  a good strong economy is created mostly by businesses. all the government really contributes is keeping pollution in check and other stuff
17:30:54 <TheBlueWizard> uhh....actually no....a typical fed govt in WashDC area might earn 50 000....if you throw in benefits and administrative cost (e.g. supplying office equipments, whatever), then perhaps 80 000 is the price
17:31:57 <TheBlueWizard> you can view the pay scale of fed gov't employees at www.opm.gov...GS-12/13 is typically the maximum position an employee can reach without becoming a manager
17:32:46 <bugslayer> thebluewizard: i was just putting out a number, i was thinking somewhat of higher level cushy positions that people get into because the ruling party liked them
17:33:31 <bugslayer> i don't know what the us political system is quite like, but in canada, we have senators and they just get elected by the prime minister and get a really cushy job and get paid 100,000 or more
17:34:02 <bugslayer> and the senators could all be gotten rid of and a better system implemented :)
17:34:16 <bugslayer> governments are quite hard to change
17:34:24 <bugslayer> so it's kinda sad
17:35:02 <Fractal> bugslayer : You also are Candian?
17:35:02 <TheBlueWizard> ah...the appointed positions (such as attorney general or ambassadors) typically are highly paid, like 100 000, maybe...and that is top positions....something similar to underlings to board members of a typical mid to large companies
17:35:06 <Fractal> Canadian?
17:35:13 <Fractal> Where from?
17:35:29 <bugslayer> fractal: calgary & kamloops, you ?
17:35:39 <Fractal> Calgary and Penticton. :)
17:35:44 <Fractal> I'm in calgary now.
17:35:58 <bugslayer> fractal: i had communistic leanings until i took econ 201 at uofc :)
17:36:10 <bugslayer> and i've read a libertarian book..
17:36:49 <bugslayer> fractal: do you know any other calgarian forthers?
17:37:03 <bugslayer> fractal: there was a qless guy on here that is from calgary
17:37:09 <bugslayer> and another
17:37:12 <TheBlueWizard> ah...Canada....it is my understanding that in Canada the provinces have more power in relation to federal gov't than is the case in USA, and also I also read somewhere that the Canadian parliamentary is something of a joke...like one guy going to Costa Rica for a one month vacation using taxpayers' money
17:37:15 <bugslayer> nick started with k or something
17:37:23 <Fractal> Well, you have to realize that libertarianism is purely a manufactured philosophy created by the libertarian party (and it's ancestors).
17:37:47 <TheBlueWizard> hmm....nope...I'm American, so...<shrug>
17:37:48 <bugslayer> fractal: uhh, actually, libertarianism was around before the libertarian party formed
17:38:12 <bugslayer> fractal: that's my understanding anyways
17:38:23 <TheBlueWizard> how come Fractal is not talking in *this* channel?
17:38:38 <bugslayer> ??
17:39:18 <Fractal> Yes, well it's ancestors created it. But the philosophy has always been based on capitalism, and is not really a political philosophy.
17:39:26 <TheBlueWizard> you keep answering to Fractal, but I don't see any talk from Fractal in this channel
17:39:39 <Fractal> Huh?
17:39:46 <Fractal> You can't see this?
17:40:01 <bugslayer> thebluewizard: fractal is talking to you right now, you don't see him?
17:40:22 <bugslayer> maybe you ignored him accidentally? ;)
17:40:35 <Fractal> Or on purpose. :)
17:41:20 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...lemme check my settings
17:41:35 <Fractal> Tell him to type /unig fractal
17:41:40 <bugslayer> fractal:  anyways, since i learned some economics it is my perspective that it is companies that create the economy, that raise the standard of living, etc, and they are all rationally selfish, and this creates win-win situations
17:41:45 <bugslayer> type /unig fractal
17:42:19 <bugslayer> and if one company is really bad and does bad things to the customers, then the customers move to another company and that company dies..
17:42:43 <bugslayer> but we need to control pollution anyways and other external things
17:42:55 <Fractal> Well, this is the 1 of the 4 big lies of capitalist economics. Companies do NOT raise the standard of living.
17:43:04 <Fractal> Think about the industrial revolution in england.
17:43:22 <bugslayer> fractal: companies produce computers cheap, and produce more powerful computers over time..
17:43:31 <Fractal> There was almost no governmental control over industry, and as a consequence, most people lived in compmlete poverty with no health benefits, etc.
17:43:36 <bugslayer> companies build cheap houses, etc etc
17:43:51 <bugslayer> fractal: most of the people moved to the cities from the countryside
17:43:56 <Fractal> bugslayer : Primarily because the government mandates competition.
17:43:57 <bugslayer> THEY thought it was a higher living standard
17:44:07 <TheBlueWizard> I now can see Fractal here :)
17:44:09 <bugslayer> we're out of context and out of their time
17:44:10 <Fractal> :)
17:44:28 <Fractal> bugslayer : Not really. It applies just as much then as now.
17:44:32 <TheBlueWizard> didn't realize I ignored him...forgotten why :)
17:44:33 <bugslayer> the workers moved to the cities because they thought the standard of living was higher or for some other reason..  they weren't forced to the cities
17:45:23 <Fractal> Take third world countries, for instance. They don't have strong government systems set up, and as a consquence, corporations exploit labour at slave wage prices, and most people live in poverty.
17:45:24 <bugslayer> thebluewizard: i vaguely remember something about an argument fractal was having with other people and it was a whole bunch of months ago (6 months ago?)
17:45:28 <Fractal> TheBlueWizard :)
17:45:38 <Fractal> I'm always arguing with people. :)
17:46:03 <bugslayer> yeah, making my life hard eh?! :P
17:46:19 <bugslayer> i don't mind debates though
17:46:33 <bugslayer> altho there s a fine line between debates and arguments :)
17:46:47 <TheBlueWizard> must be something that really annoyed me no end so I must've ignored him lol
17:47:02 <bugslayer> (where arguments are the more emotional versions of debates, and are prone to more fallacies and other tricks)
17:47:09 <Fractal> Well, I am very alarmed at the level of incorporation Canada is being to suffer. We for a long time have had higher standards of living, better literacy, better healthcare, cheaper power, cleaner water, etc than the US, but this is beginning to change.
17:47:37 <bugslayer> yeah, but what was the cost for all that?
17:47:38 <TheBlueWizard> Fractal: you a Canadian too?
17:47:43 <Fractal> TheBlueWizard : Yeah.
17:48:04 <Fractal> bugslayer : For 90% of the population? About the same as the US.
17:48:18 <bugslayer> fractal: know any other forth coders in calgary? ( i missed your answer the last time i asked)
17:48:34 <Fractal> Actually, the US is the only civilized nation that doesn't offer universaly accessible healthcare. It's shameful really...
17:48:48 <Fractal> bugslayer : No, I don't. I had no idea you were in Calgary either.
17:48:58 <bugslayer> what was the cost to canadians for healthcare, cheaper power and cleaner water
17:48:58 <TheBlueWizard> um...I heard Canada has higher tax rate than USA, and my few excursions into Canada seems to bore out that
17:49:10 <bugslayer> tbw: yep
17:49:29 <Fractal> TheBlueWizard : Yes, Canada does have higher taxes, but actually living in Canada is cheaper.
17:49:49 <Fractal> There are much, much less private tariffs in Canada.
17:49:51 <TheBlueWizard> there is GST and PST, and both are about same percentage, and that was expensive ratio (something like 10% each)
17:50:02 <Fractal> %7
17:50:59 <Fractal> Actually, Canada is ridiculed in the American media, and (like on most issues) Americans are left in the dark as to what is ACTUALLY happening.
17:51:20 <TheBlueWizard> Fractal: true, the goods are surprisingly cheaper in Canada than in USA...but the sales tax are lower here (the worst one I know of is WashDC city itself, which has a sales tax of 10%....no real surprise considering the history of mayorship by Marion Barry *shudder*)
17:51:43 <TheBlueWizard> Maryland sales tax: 5%
17:51:53 <Fractal> TheBlueWizard : Not only goods, but Candians enjoy higher levels of service than Americans.
17:51:55 <TheBlueWizard> I live in MD, BTW
17:52:11 <Fractal> For instance, EVERY canadian citizen has health benefits.
17:52:14 <bugslayer> the USA is very self-focused and likes to think of itself as the center of the world. 
17:52:23 <TheBlueWizard> as I understand it, Canada is a bit more socialistic than USA
17:52:31 <Fractal> Yes, much more socialist.
17:53:31 <Fractal> bugslayer : Yes, we as Canadians have a much better media system than the US.
17:53:39 <Fractal> The media is actually diversified.
17:53:49 <bugslayer> fractal: barely
17:53:49 <TheBlueWizard> now with Republican in full control of White House and Congress, I expect USA to lean even more towards capitalistic politics
17:54:07 <Fractal> TheBlueWizard : Yes, it's a shame, really.
17:54:34 <Fractal> bugslayer : The "Reporters Without Borders" conference rates Canada is the #5 best country in the world for free media.
17:54:38 <Fractal> American is a dismal #27
17:54:41 <bugslayer> fractal: the media isn't very diversified really, and there's been a good book written on that "canada and the media" written by a proffessor at uofc
17:54:45 <Fractal> Let me find a URL.
17:55:21 <TheBlueWizard> dunno much about media in Canada...though it's interesting to see Toronto Star available...for free! plus a TV version of that newspaper!   Unbelievable
17:55:26 <bugslayer> some people have said that tthe globe and mail has mostly a liberal bias, etc
17:55:52 <Fractal> bugslayer : I don't know if you've visited the US much: you should try it if not. You'll be very suprised at the lack of a publicly run media. It's *all* run by a few major media networks (privately run).
17:56:10 <bugslayer> fractal: i've never been to the usa or outside of canada
17:56:18 <TheBlueWizard> prolly true...though I've read a few European rags, and boy, they're different than USA! :)
17:56:42 <Fractal> bugslayer : Well a number of things you take for granted are simply lacking there. Non-commercial radio, for instance.
17:56:51 <bugslayer> hmm
17:56:53 <Fractal> TheBlueWizard : What do you mean?
17:57:17 <TheBlueWizard> Fractal: there are numerous newspapers here...but other than that, yeah, the news media are pretty much consolidated
17:57:49 <Fractal> TheBlueWizard : Agreed.
17:58:01 <TheBlueWizard> (re: European-based news) um...different weltanschauungs :)
17:58:16 <bugslayer> thebluewizard: are american flags really common?  like american flags in every classroom (for the most part) in elementary, junior, and highschool ?
17:58:29 <Fractal> Actually, I've read a few unbelievable accounts of private censorship of the NY Times (and it's children papers), so newspapers certainly aren't immune. :)
17:59:14 <TheBlueWizard> though I think the media are slowly beginning to diversify...for example there is a Fox upstart with its news channel, UPN (with its weal news coverage).  I sometimes enjoy PBS news...often informative
17:59:49 <TheBlueWizard> bugslayer: after Sept. 11, OH YES!!!!  Flags everywhere...even today
18:00:04 <Fractal> TheBlueWizard : Oh, I don't deny that there are some good examples of media implementation in the US, I'm just saying that compared to the rest of the free world, they are few and far between.
18:00:20 <Fractal> TheBlueWizard : I particularly like Voice Of America on shortwave.
18:00:39 * TheBlueWizard can't hear, so...<shrug>
18:00:55 <bugslayer> thebluewizard: are americans aware that the usa funded and supported terrorism?  i vaugely recall the assassination of some prime minister 
18:01:10 <bugslayer> maybe i'm wrong
18:01:14 <Fractal> Ah yes, don't get me started on sept 11th.
18:01:23 <Fractal> bugslayer : No, you're not wrong at all.
18:01:53 <Fractal> The US has set up puppet dictatorships in literally dozens of countries.
18:02:20 <Fractal> And assassinated a large number of publicly elected officials because of their "communist supporting views".
18:02:22 <TheBlueWizard> definition of terrorism vary with regions ;P
18:02:23 <Fractal> Let me find you a link.
18:02:43 <bugslayer> you know, remember the speech "ask not what you can do for your country, ask what your country can do for you"  it's an example of cleverly influencing the citizens, who _is_ the country in this context?  it's the ruling party, the elite.. so if you change it to "ask not what those in power can do for you, ask what you can do for those in power" sounds quite silly now
18:03:16 <Fractal> http://www.endtheusa.com/amerikkkana/vice_guide/index.html
18:03:24 <TheBlueWizard> in some (covert) cases, I would say yes, USA does assassinate top dogs...and Bush openly say that Saddam should be assassinated
18:03:34 <Fractal> That is an incomplete subset of American supported terrorism.
18:03:59 <bugslayer> fractal:  it's pretty cool that there's been about 4 calgarian forth coders on this channel :) 
18:04:11 <bugslayer> fractal: practically enough to start up CFIG ;)
18:04:11 <Fractal> Yes, it has. Are you in Calgary now?
18:04:15 <bugslayer> yes i am
18:04:18 <Fractal> Yeah, that would be interesting.
18:04:37 <Fractal> I'm going back to BC soon though.
18:04:39 <bugslayer> warning, each one of us is pretty weird ;)
18:04:44 <TheBlueWizard> wow...a new FIG springing up right before my eyes!
18:04:46 <bugslayer> yeah, i'm moving to kamloops in jan
18:04:50 <Fractal> Heh. I'd fit right in. :)
18:04:56 <bugslayer> thebluewizard: and falling apart again ;)
18:05:02 <TheBlueWizard> LMAO!!!
18:05:24 <bugslayer> unless C = canadian instead of calgary
18:06:07 <Fractal> Actually, that link neglects a number of horiffic incidents.
18:06:28 <bugslayer> and doesn't give much supporting evidence ??
18:06:33 <Fractal> For instance, the American invasion of Afghanistan in 2001.
18:06:44 <TheBlueWizard> by the way, I personally consider myself somewhat conservative
18:07:02 <bugslayer> fractal: do you know anything about um.. that guy running for 2004 presidential campaign?  um...  crap, forgot his name
18:07:05 <Fractal> bugslayer : Punch any one of those dates and countries into google and you'll get more evidence than you desire.
18:07:37 <TheBlueWizard> I support that attack on Taliban and Al Qaeda...those absolutely have to go!
18:07:38 <Fractal> bugslayer : I don't make it a habit of following american politics...
18:08:30 <Fractal> TheBlueWizard : Al Qaeda is primarily a Saudia Arabian organization formed of Saudis and Egyptians, and has virtually no ties to Afghanistan.
18:08:47 <Fractal> Were any bombs dropped on those (US sanctioned) nations? No.
18:09:05 <bugslayer> trying to google for the guy, i've got a "nobody" for presidential campaign and a "satan" for presidential campagin
18:09:32 <bugslayer> aha, found the name
18:09:35 <Fractal> bugslayer : Who?
18:09:37 <bugslayer> lyndon larouche
18:09:41 <TheBlueWizard> Saudi Arabia kicked out Osama bin Laden cuz of his views plus his advocation for getting rid of Saudi monarchy
18:09:46 <Fractal> I'm not familiar.
18:10:23 <TheBlueWizard> so I wouldn't agrre with Al Qaeda being called a Saudi Arabian organization
18:10:25 <bugslayer> for a few seconds i thought lyndon larouche might be the "chuck moore of politics"  but i haven't read his material
18:10:50 <Fractal> TheBlueWizard : But how does that justify an immediate invasion of a completely unrelated nation WITHOUT the UN's consent?
18:10:52 <TheBlueWizard> Lyndon LaRouche is a walking toxic can
18:10:53 <bugslayer> where chuck moore just means "contrarian" "smart" "knowledgeable" "cool" etc
18:11:06 <bugslayer> thebluewizard: how so?
18:11:16 <Fractal> TheBlueWizard : Well, I mean the majority of it's' investments involve Saudi Arabian resources.
18:12:55 <Fractal> Ok, I'll be back later. See you guys.
18:13:00 <bugslayer> ok
18:13:05 <bugslayer> ttyl
18:13:44 <bugslayer> we've got a thermodynamic law party for presidential campaign 2004
18:13:52 <TheBlueWizard> Fractal: you are wrong re: needing UN's permission
18:14:14 <bugslayer> thebluewizard: i don't know that much about larouche, but he's contrarian and probably controversial in some ways..
18:14:35 <TheBlueWizard> would we need UN permission to strike at Japan after Japan pulled a Pearl Harbor surprise attack?  ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!
18:15:39 <Fractal> TheBlueWizard : Well, the UN was formed *after* WW2 specifically to prevent irrational attacks such as that.
18:15:42 <TheBlueWizard> bugslayer: oh yeah LaRouche is controversial in the sense that no Democrats wants to even mention him...etc...I don't know a lot about LaRouche...just enough to agree with Democrats and stay away from LaRouche :)
18:17:04 <TheBlueWizard> Fractal: true re: the formation of UN after WW2...but not true re: preventing "irrational attacks"...in fact Japan saw the attack on USA as a necessary step in order to expand its empire
18:17:21 <TheBlueWizard> so that'd be rational in its calculation
18:19:26 <TheBlueWizard> and besides, there are a lot of people all over the world saying that they believe USA has a right to hit back, considering Sept 11....and I agree
18:20:14 <TheBlueWizard> in fact I am annoyed at Bush for failure to be more focused on exterminating Al Qaeda
18:20:33 <TheBlueWizard> never mind the pinpricked attack on 6 guys in Pakistan
18:22:17 <Fractal> Alright, I'm really gone now. LAter.
18:22:40 <TheBlueWizard> bye Fractal
18:24:56 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go now...bye all!
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18:37:33 <bugslayer> hi encipherus :)
18:37:43 <bugslayer> oops
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20:15:48 <joonas> Has anyone had a look at the ~250 line soft-float package Brad Eckert posted to c.l.f. about?
20:17:33 <joonas> http://www.tinyboot.com/float.txt
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21:05:42 <ianni> arpeggio
21:17:20 <Fractal> What?
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.11.07