00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.11.06 01:01:42 --- quit: XeF4 ("pois") 02:27:46 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 02:36:23 --- join: Xuz (aemerson@bgp01132867bgs.ypeast01.mi.comcast.net) joined #forth 02:51:16 Hi. 02:51:54 Hiya 05:29:56 --- quit: Xuz ("Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz-POP!") 05:41:28 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:42:31 --- join: skylan (sjh@207.164.213.149) joined #forth 05:45:39 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 06:09:14 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 06:16:51 --- join: Herkamir1 (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 06:34:01 --- quit: Herkamire (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:00:48 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 07:17:22 --- quit: Herkamir1 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:18:04 --- quit: skylan ("blah") 07:44:39 hmm 07:44:43 * ianni launches is4th 08:07:31 --- join: tathi (~josh@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 08:18:04 Hello all. 08:18:42 hey Robert 08:21:02 hey 08:21:12 Thanks for the NEXT help. 08:21:23 who me? 08:21:31 Nah, tathi. 08:21:34 ah 08:21:39 But I can hug you too, if you want. 08:21:45 so, I'm gonna build something to model an elevator system in forth 08:21:51 Robert: ok :) 08:22:00 so how can I store something more than numbers in arrays? 08:22:14 should i use a struct-like thing or something? 08:22:27 ive never really done any memory management 08:22:47 You could...just calculate the address as sizeof(structure)*index + base. 08:23:52 right, just like C! 08:23:55 what NEXT help? 08:24:10 create struct-array my-struct size * allot 08:24:10 so orientation-wise, how do i have a point of reference? what does HERE mean? 08:24:39 tathi: Wasn't it you who mailed Jeff Fox and asked about SWAP in machineforth. 08:24:48 Ooops. Just notices. NEXT should be SWAP. 08:24:52 noticed 08:25:38 Well, homework time. 08:29:14 enjoy 08:29:22 ianni: HERE gives you a memory address. that address points at the memory that you can fill using , (comma) or ALLOT 08:29:35 (or c,) 08:31:29 You can also use an existing structures implementation. 08:35:56 aaaaaaaaa no 08:36:28 learn to mannage memory addresses 08:40:19 I think it's pretty interesting that Jeff Fox and Chuck Moore pretty much Never use SWAP. 08:40:54 I'll have to look at my code and see how much I do 08:41:42 I should do the same, and see if I can avoid it. 08:46:36 Ifigured HERE would do that 08:46:46 the implementation behind it will find me some free space, right? 08:49:01 HERE will just return the dictionary pointer. 08:49:11 ALLOT allocates space for you on the dictionary. 08:50:04 "on the dictionary 08:50:06 "? 08:51:50 Ehm. 08:51:55 Do you know what a dictionary is? 08:52:29 It's like a stack, but you never pop anything from it, you only "push" data to the top of it. 08:52:46 That's where everything is stored. 08:52:58 Compiled code, space for variables and so on,. 08:53:52 you can drop off the dictionary 08:53:54 with forget 08:54:04 which is like pop to /dev/null 08:54:14 Robert: not really, that's why im asking all these basic questions 08:54:33 this makes sense 08:54:43 forth's 'heap' so to spea 08:54:44 Well... that's however not what you usually do. At least I don't :) 08:54:44 kk 09:17:51 ALLOT allocates memory on the _HEAP_ 09:18:14 this doen't generally have anything to do with the dictionary 09:18:29 Herkamire: Oh, I see. 09:19:15 the heap is a big wad of memmory that the forth system uses, and that you can use yourself. 09:21:04 everything below HERE is used. 09:23:18 great 09:24:09 now - where is some code I can look at to see someone using sctructures 09:27:43 Sorry. 09:27:46 I was confusing terms. 09:27:51 * Robert hides. 09:28:18 * ianni isnt confused quite yet 09:28:19 Get taught by me - say goodbye to your future. 09:34:07 lol 09:40:18 I dont see i44or using it aynwhere.. hmm 09:40:31 o no h does 09:40:32 cool 09:41:37 Using what? 09:44:22 struct 09:44:24 s 09:44:43 Oh, yes. 09:52:02 --- join: proteusguy (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 09:55:11 Hi proteusguy. 09:55:52 I'm just wondering, how hard would it be to construct a system that can run program code from RAM? That's the only thing I miss with the microcontrollers. 09:56:16 And writing a virtual machine seems a bit..well..slow. Even though that is what I am doing now. 09:58:36 * Robert just notices Z80s and such are very cheap ;) 09:58:49 Hey Robert - I dunno. Actualy I wasn't aware of any such restriction in the AtMel or that it even knew its cost mem was RAM or ROM. 10:01:40 Do you have any idea how external SRAM is connected? 10:03:17 Its been a while since I looked at the AtMel. Does it have address lines going out like a cpu? 10:06:41 Robert - sorry I gotta run to lunch. TTYL. 10:10:40 Bye. 10:12:20 ianni: don't use structs. Do it yourself 10:13:15 ianni: use: , c, allot 10:13:34 Herkamire: yeah, I need to understand how those work before I use them anyway 10:13:34 ianni: use ! and @ and calculate memory addresses 10:13:49 proteusguy: With a special control bit set, it can do that. 10:14:14 Herkamire: ALLOT is like malloc ? 10:14:20 what's c, ? 10:14:49 allot is sorta like malloc. 10:15:15 You usually can't just free() the memory, though. 10:15:29 I wouldn't expect to 10:24:15 so if i am creating an elevator system, and I want to associate things with each 'floor' or whatever 10:24:31 i would maybe want a master array of elevator variables and... 10:24:48 I have no idea what you are trying to accomplish 10:25:09 well, say I jsut want to pretend im writing an elevator system (per onetom's idea) 10:25:26 so ill create 10 "floors" and pretend people are getting in and outrandomly or something 10:25:44 so i need to know the state of the actual elevator... hrm 10:26:08 my instinct as an OO developer would be to have instance variables for each floor 10:26:24 and maybe some global indicator of status 10:26:31 hrmm 10:27:28 I want to use structs :) 10:27:39 but i definitely shouldn't 10:28:32 a fixed length array should work fine 10:53:37 --- join: I440r (~mark4@sdn-ap-012tnnashP0397.dialsprint.net) joined #forth 10:59:00 re I440r 11:00:01 hi 11:05:41 I wonder if my library would have any forth books 11:05:56 im gonna go find out 11:09:05 Hi I440r. 11:09:41 I440r: How should I do with all the constants connected to e.g. the syscall in IsForth? 11:10:07 Should they be defined in linux.f? 11:30:18 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 11:34:58 --- join: gilbertbsd (~gilbertbs@67.97.122.63) joined #forth 11:35:39 hullo 11:36:30 Hi gilbertbsd. 11:37:16 hey have you ever read RAndall Hyde's asm tutorial? 11:40:37 No. 11:40:47 I read asm sources instead ;) 11:42:47 do you now? 11:45:09 Sometimes. 12:23:52 --- join: I440r (mark4@sdn-ap-032tnnashP0269.dialsprint.net) joined #forth 12:24:07 http://www.chipcenter.com/eexpert/dashby/dashby041_tyn_puzzle.jpg;$sessionid$LYY2EGIAACFAUQSNDISCFEQ 12:24:09 someone explain that to me 12:41:39 --- quit: gilbertbsd (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:41:51 I440r: look at the grid :) 12:42:27 * ianni 's seen that one before 12:45:57 ianni i was. i dont get it :) 12:46:23 damn that's well done :) 12:50:13 the line from the top right to the left corner on the two figures is not straight. on the top one in is bowed down. on the bottom one in is bent the other way. 12:53:38 Yep - red object has a slope of 3/8 whereas green is 2/5. Good eye. 12:58:29 aha 13:06:45 hehe 13:06:52 I remember I was boggled by it too 13:06:58 so I helf up a piece of paper - lo and behold :) 13:07:00 held 13:27:06 :) 13:27:14 im so pissed 13:27:17 I found forth books at my library 13:27:22 lots better than anything i found on the web 13:27:30 but i couldnt check them out, they wouldnt give me a library card 13:27:37 because my current address I wrote down doesnt match my ID 13:27:41 Mother fuckers. 13:27:44 :P 13:28:03 its cool, with forth i can pick all the old books and they wont be out of date :) 13:29:32 --- join: skylan (sjh@Rockcliffe71.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 13:56:19 20:13 < Robert> I440r: How should I do with all the constants connected to e.g. 13:56:20 the syscall in IsForth? 13:56:20 20:13 < Robert> Should they be defined in linux.f? 13:56:30 I440r: Hi again.. 13:56:53 erm 13:57:07 you lost me 13:57:29 Yup. 13:57:40 I saw you were disconnected right after that 13:58:09 my machine crashed, i didnt see your question at all then heh 13:58:18 and i dont understand what you mean now 13:58:24 what about ? 13:58:38 \ive defined a file.f with some useful file handling words 13:58:55 Hmmm 13:59:00 Didn't sere that 13:59:03 mechecks 13:59:21 Not in my version :-/ 13:59:45 no, its going to be in the NEXT release heh 14:01:50 Bah. 14:01:53 Hurry! :P 14:02:32 I'm actually using IsForth to do some simulation of microcontroller applications I'm working with. 14:02:49 cool :) 14:02:57 Noticed the development of it became _extremley_ fast. /me hugs Chuck and I440r :P 14:03:13 btw, you're into the 8051 series of mcs, right? 14:04:26 yes 14:05:07 Neat.. how's the instruction set? 14:05:49 * Robert is planning to get some of them. 14:05:53 easy :) 14:05:59 They're not expensive at all. 14:06:10 Yay. 14:06:10 its a nice uc 14:06:25 Cool. 14:06:44 Hrm 14:06:51 Do you know any instruction reference? 14:07:56 lol you can get them online 14:08:12 google for 8051 opcodes 14:08:42 Okie..I'm checking atmel's ones 14:09:14 the siemens references are good 14:10:15 OK, thanks 14:29:17 --- quit: Herkamire ("home again home again") 14:31:12 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 15:23:50 --- join: bugslayer (guest@62.77.213.177) joined #forth 15:23:56 i440r what is your ip? 15:24:05 somebody dns i440r for me? 15:25:53 erm 15:26:02 158.253.233.15 15:27:57 hrm 15:47:36 --- join: tathi (~josh@ip68-9-58-207.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 16:21:36 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc1-login11.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 16:22:03 :) 16:23:09 --- quit: bugslayer ("bye") 16:23:14 hey 16:27:40 so what do you think of those elections eh ? :) 16:28:19 cool 16:28:51 well.. i heard you got a democrat governor 16:28:54 :) 16:29:02 but we got a republican! 16:29:25 we almost voted down the income tax 16:29:25 yea 16:29:42 got rid of bilingual education 16:29:42 whats important is that we now have the house AND the senate :))))) 16:29:51 yeah 16:30:45 Too bad there's no fundamental difference in republican or democratic views. The only real difference is, well, frivolous. Icing. 16:31:02 Rhetoric, is the only real difference. 16:31:38 --- quit: XeF4 ("pois") 16:31:52 BBL 16:33:06 bullshit 16:33:15 abasolute BULLShit 16:38:55 yeah, come visit massachusetts to see what Democrat rule is like 16:39:53 there's a difference.. it's like the US vs. the USSR 16:40:38 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 16:47:04 I am SO glad our democrat got elected 16:49:35 check out the results of the vote on www.vote.com 16:50:03 22,838 to 841 :))) 16:50:03 i've seen enough results 16:50:32 22,841? 16:50:59 its vote.com - they as a question and keep track of the answers. they will mail the right ppl with their results too 16:51:15 the vote is "is it good for the country that the gop now has both the house and the senate" 17:03:40 Fuck... 2am, school tomorrow and I can't sleep. 17:04:03 And if I finally DO manage to sleep, I won't wake up. 17:04:15 Best of all - first class tomorrow is a biology test. 17:04:44 Which means, if I sleep too long, I'll miss it. If I don't go to bed, I'll be a zombie by then. 17:04:49 * Robert sighs. 17:07:53 it's only biology 17:09:31 Yes, I know. 17:25:44 --- join: proteus_ (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 17:35:28 --- quit: tcn () 17:39:37 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:07:30 Heh. So from what I hear, this election wasn't as big of a scam as the last presidential election... 18:07:54 That's good, I guess. At least Americans can pretend they're living in a democracy... 18:08:02 Good for them. 18:10:08 At least the American system keeps those pinko green party wackos out of power. 18:11:21 Actually, I could care less. The choice between republican and democratic parties is a joke. It's a choice between baboons and orangutans. The corporations write the US's laws anyways... 18:22:16 --- quit: proteus_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:33:24 --- join: bugslayer (guest@62.77.213.177) joined #forth 20:33:39 i could say that there is one party, the demopublican party, but i wont ;) 20:34:08 yeah fractal, you seem to be in a little bit of a trolling mood 20:34:49 Meh, not particularly, I'm just honest. 20:34:58 hah 20:35:39 so how goes it fractal? 20:35:40 I'm just tired of americans believing they're living in "the land of the free". 20:35:43 doing much forth coding these days? 20:35:44 Heh. Not bad. You? 20:35:52 so so 20:35:52 Ya, a little here and there. 20:35:57 doing some forth coding here and there 20:36:03 Heh. Cool. 20:36:07 but sometimes it really takes some effort to get off my ass and code 20:36:18 Ya, no doubt. 20:37:14 i've got a "code a mud in forth" project 20:37:23 but the main obstacle is the database in the first place 20:37:33 Ah yes, I think I've talked to you about that before. 20:37:50 i don't really know how i should go about making the database, and what to put in the database and crap 20:37:58 do i put code in the database? 20:38:00 Hm... Yeah, that could be tough, especially since forth is poor at dynamic memory allocation. 20:38:16 well the dynamic memory allocation isn't that hard 20:38:35 my problem with the database isn't purely an implementation problem 20:38:44 but of how the hell it should be utilized 20:38:48 Hm, ok, then why don't you have something like: 20:39:06 name:password:item1,item2,item3:gold 20:39:09 Or something. 20:39:19 1 line per user. 20:39:25 i'm planning this super complex object system, which is paralysing me from making a little crappy thing :P 20:39:43 Heh. 20:39:47 coding to throw away isn't in my bloodstream yet 20:39:57 er, blood 20:40:14 Well, there's always using external DBs. 20:40:32 nah :P 20:40:42 You could write up some quick SQL query code... 20:40:53 so um, i suppose i save the DB as a file 20:41:02 and then load only the stuff i need? 20:41:12 or maybe i could have the dtabase as a forth file 20:41:23 and all the words in the file would be the dtata 20:41:28 As a forth code file? That's probably a bad idea. 20:41:41 : player1 password object1 object2 ; 20:41:55 hheh 20:41:59 What if a player sets their password to ";"? 20:42:05 Could crash the server. 20:42:09 well the password would be a string silly :P 20:42:33 : player1 passwordstring ; 20:42:54 Well, what if they're password was " " ; "? 20:43:25 Or, what if you wanted an item called swap? 20:43:35 There's just too many things that could go wrong. 20:43:38 no, the string is terminated by 0 20:43:39 no 20:44:01 you are blowing it out of "proportion" 20:44:42 the object1 and ojbect2 don'thave to reflect the name of the object 20:44:45 it could just be a number 20:44:52 and there would be a list of object 20:44:52 s 20:45:17 Ok, possibly. 20:45:47 But consider this: The forth dictionary is stored in a linear, append-only heap. 20:45:49 well it probably isn't a good idea to have everything as words, probably slow down the compiler or something.. 20:45:52 yeah 20:46:07 unless i seriously hacked the dictionary and dictionary words ;) 20:46:23 Yeah, well speed isn't really the problem, but what if somebody gains an item? 20:46:38 You'll have to reload the entire dictionary. 20:46:49 yeah, inconvenient :P 20:46:57 Yeah... 20:47:06 well.. 20:47:21 instead of words there could be a data strcuture of fixed size 20:47:36 with like 30 spaces for items 20:47:39 or whatever 20:47:48 Ok, fair enough, though it doesn't scale well... 20:47:51 a 100 spaces 20:48:04 well there could be a limit to the number of items the player is allowed 20:48:20 player tries to pick up 101th item and it says "fool! you cannot carry more than 100 items!" 20:48:35 i wonder if there's a limit like that on other muds 20:48:57 True, so you plan on having all users logged on at the moment in memory? 20:49:11 Or all users in the DB? 20:51:23 eh? don't understand your question 20:52:10 Well, nevermind. 20:52:42 oh 20:52:49 same thing? :P 20:53:30 Don't worry about it. :) 20:53:31 if they're logged in, then they'll be in memory, but they'll be stored in the DB, and the parts of the db not being immediately utilized will be offline 20:53:43 er, will be on hd 20:53:45 Ok... 20:54:10 That's what I thought. 20:54:44 Well, good luck. 21:01:51 fractal, what's your email? 21:02:22 msg it to me if you want to keep it hiudden from clog 21:04:57 What? 21:05:05 Oh, I see. 21:06:09 sent 21:06:28 should explain it in a little more detail for ya 21:09:51 Cool. 21:10:20 i still welcome any input 21:13:38 fractal: the generate room description seems a little tricky.. how do i knoww when an object is in the same room ? 21:20:20 ls 21:20:23 doh 21:23:41 Well, you're going to have to have both "descriptions" of the objects, and "instances" of objects... 21:23:51 And the "instances 21:24:11 " of objects will most likely contain a number referring to which "description" it's associated with. 21:24:40 yeah 21:24:54 hm 21:26:02 why should the description be somewhere else? 21:26:15 and not part of the object dtatastructure? 21:28:04 Well, you don't want to duplicate the description for every instance of the object. 21:28:32 Like, there's no point in storing "A long sword" 50 times. 21:29:02 Also, if you want to change the damage a long sword does, you'll only have to change it in one spot. 21:29:46 there'll be one "A long sword" 21:29:57 and a pointer to that with every person who has that item 21:30:27 that's the way i was thinking of it as 21:30:34 Yes, that's what I'm saying. 21:31:08 Also, most MUDs also have individual properties to objects, like this particular long sword is 20% damage, and is blessed. 21:31:15 so the player has a pointer to the object dtat strcuture and the datastructure contains the description as well as all attributes.. 21:31:18 But that's certainly not essential. 21:31:32 well that can be passed to the datastructure or something, dunno 21:31:46 but not part of it.. 21:31:53 Um. You don't pass things to the data structure. 21:32:10 heh, i know, but i could have affectors or something 21:32:37 "Affectors"? 21:33:06 well the affect of blessed can be realized without putting it in the datastrcuture 21:33:14 the datastructure is an object 21:33:28 vaguely anyways 21:37:00 ummm 21:37:46 there should be a way to still have blessed and stuff like that 21:38:04 maybe 2 datastructures 21:38:11 eww ;) 21:41:37 And you want to do this in forth? 21:45:51 yes, are you anti-forth or something? do you think it's hard to do stuff in forth? you should check isforth, it's inspiring and the whole thing was coded reallly fast. it has sockets, and more, and will soon be a serious forth development platform.. 21:46:19 it inspires me because it's simple and close to the metal yet achieves a lot already 21:46:24 and the socket code is nice 21:46:29 which he hasn't released yet 21:47:10 No, I'm not anti-forth at all. Actually, I have my own forth comiler: http://www.hcsw.org/frugal/ 21:47:33 However, I do recoginize the strengths and weaknesses of a language. 21:48:57 And yes, isforth is OK, but, of course, not portable. 21:49:43 actually, i'm hard pressed to think of any weaknesses except for poor support, lack of excellent forth books (starting forth is out of print), and lack of good examples of forth code and good role models for forth coding methodology 21:50:19 i have seen lists of the cons that forth has, but most of those are perceived or not directly inherent with the language but dependant on the programmer 21:50:40 Well, lack of typing is a big limitation. 21:50:53 Lack of standardization. 21:51:00 isforth is portable, not the kernel, but that can be coded for the next platform easily 21:51:07 ew, you're an ans-forth lover 21:51:14 "standardization" "portability" 21:51:15 Easily? Heh. Uh huh. 21:51:28 uh huh 21:51:38 i440r coded the isforth kernel in 1-2 months 21:51:56 and he took longer cause of the learning curve 21:52:07 and some stuff he had to hack around 21:52:11 I gave him a shell on my oBSD machine, asked him to port isforth, and he couldn't do it. This is another x86 unix too. 21:52:33 he wouldn't do it 21:52:36 not couldn't 21:52:42 No, he couldn't. 21:52:50 Gave up after a few days. 21:53:03 Supposedly, it shouldn't even need to be rewritten. 21:53:49 Yes, i440r has some strong opinions on portability, many of which make little sense. 21:53:55 the syscalls stuff need to be changed and the freebsd.1 needs to be done 21:54:06 who cares about i440r's opinion on portability? 21:54:09 this is forth 21:54:18 chuck moore's opinions are where it's at :P 21:55:30 Yes, well forth is an interesting, flexible, and powerful language, but it simply doesn't take into account decades of compiler research. 21:56:06 lol 21:56:41 For instance, lack of typing. 21:58:38 It's an outdated language. 21:58:51 But can still be useful in many areas. 21:58:53 a skilled assembly coder can easily produce better code than any compiler. a skilled forth coder like chuck moore is essentially using forth like a macro assembler, with well chosen macros with which he can build a program. he unlocks the potential of the program through his approach to problem solving and finds the best possible problem with the least "hooks" 21:59:34 it might not take into account decades of compiler research, but that's because that shit is completely irrelevant 22:00:13 Well, yes, in theory. Unfortunatley, there are different levels of the "best" solution. This is something forth programmers generally have a difficult time of seeing. 22:00:28 it is my view that since forth is a DIRECT and SPECIFIC outgrowth of chuck's philosophy, it is stupid for forth to be used by those who don't closely follow or agree with chuck's philosophy 22:01:26 fractal: that is an unsubstantiated statement, how do you know that chuck moore doesn't see the levels.. hmm? :) 22:01:57 Well, chuck is definitley not the only contributer to the forth language. 22:01:59 actually, the one disadvantage of forth is probably: there's only one forth coder ;) 22:02:03 Nor the only forth programmer. 22:02:26 Oh, so what you're saying is that only chuck's code is forth code? 22:02:56 well i really don't care about most of the forth coders out there, most of them are just mucking it up and/or coding in ANS Forth 22:03:05 and ANS Forth != forth :) 22:03:21 do you read clf? 22:03:23 i don't 22:03:37 Perhaps not, but an ANS forth implementation is just as much forth as, say, isforth. 22:03:39 i don't understand what you mean when you say "lack of typing" ?? 22:03:55 bugslayer : It doesn't have a typing system. 22:04:32 what's a typing system? why does it need one? why does it need string handling code? or OOP code? or floating point code? 22:04:35 Just so we're clear, C has a (very primitive) weak typing system. 22:04:42 Like int, char, etc. 22:04:47 oh 22:04:48 typing 22:05:04