00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.11.05 00:40:31 thin: hmmmyummm, gonna chk 00:44:11 woooow!! watta history!! :DD 01:19:11 --- quit: ChanServ (ACK! SIGSEGV!) 01:33:35 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 01:33:35 --- mode: benford.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 01:33:35 --- mode: ChanServ set +l 83 06:46:47 --- join: tathi (~josh@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 06:51:44 Hi tathi. 06:56:28 Hey Robert. 07:08:48 onetom: :) 07:14:54 --- quit: thin (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:27:38 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 07:29:05 --- join: thin (~thin@h68-146-166-145.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 07:31:01 hail thin 07:31:16 Hey Herkamire, thin 07:31:21 Hm. 07:31:35 howdy herk 07:31:36 What does ColorForth require hardware-wise? 07:31:44 a pc? 07:32:02 chuck moore's colorforth just runs off a plain ole pc 07:33:44 Hmm.. 07:33:46 * Robert tries. 07:34:36 it might not work on your pc 07:34:40 it doesn't work on all pcs 07:34:55 he only coded the colorforth for a specific hardware 07:35:03 but i think you might be able to run colorforth in boches or something 07:35:20 onetom might've run colorforth in boches or some vm ?? i can't quite remember 07:36:36 Hmm 07:36:43 I'll try on a PC 07:39:58 Niether my PC nor bochs liked it. 07:40:04 Hrm. 07:42:14 oh :) I hadn't thought of that :). that would be great if it would run under an emulator. I've been wanting to try it out. 07:43:54 what about the other vm? 07:43:58 the commercial one? 07:44:03 forget the name... 07:44:12 vmware 07:44:34 No thanks. 07:44:51 Hmm.. 07:45:01 Maybe I should just try to write my own thing. 07:45:16 Soemthing I need information about is blocks. 07:45:24 How are they used? 07:45:38 you can get an evaluation copy of vmware 07:45:48 or something, it's not like you have to pay 07:46:14 But I have to move some muscles. 07:46:19 More than I want to do now. 07:46:23 heh :) 07:46:37 ask a more specific question than "how are they used?" and maybe i can answer it.. 07:46:47 especially with bullshit ;) 07:47:57 Uhm. 07:48:37 Well, how are they used in e.g. colorforth? I'm raised with normal files, I can't imagine how to make raw, fixed-size blocks useful. 07:57:25 they are used to store code, and they are also used as virtual memory 08:01:53 Well... how do you store the code? There must be some system to avoid total confusion :) 08:07:05 chuck has his code in blocks. to avoid confusion I would guess he has a TOC somewhere (perhaps on paper) 08:07:17 or perhaps he just remembers 08:07:29 or just looks at the block... 08:07:42 Hmm.. 08:07:45 I vaguely remember his saying something about having a comment at the top of the block that said what it did 08:08:08 How is source code/compiled code orgaized? 08:08:47 each word of sourcecode is huffman encoded (with a few bits for color) in 32 bits. 08:09:03 chuck's colorforth requires a very particular PC, it seems 08:09:17 Herkamire: Oh.. 08:09:32 So they can't be very long, the words? 08:09:38 the only machine I've successfully run it on is a Celeron with ATI SVGA and a floppy drive it found agreeable 08:09:49 He's got a bunch of those words in each block (yeah you have 5-8 characters I believe) 08:10:08 Robert: iirc, only the first 32 bits are looked at by the compiler, but you can add more insignificant chars in extended words 08:10:38 Hm. Is source code formatting kept, then? 08:10:54 redword begins a line 08:11:14 his compiler/interpreter just runs the first block (which "load"s other blocks for the interpreter to run) 08:11:17 I mean, if you use spaces and such. 08:11:30 : my-word x y z a b c ; 08:11:35 spaces are implicit by the start of a significant word 08:11:51 Robert: I don't think you can affect the formatting 08:12:00 Oh, okay. 08:12:12 What's a significant word? 08:12:36 er, anything but an extension word (my terminology, not Chuck's) 08:13:10 ahh :) so significant means one that the compiler/interpreter will do something with :) 08:13:26 perhaps I should have said 'meaningful' or so 08:13:46 but yeah 08:14:58 What's insignificant then? 08:15:28 I think it would be a good programming excersize to factor my code so that each file had no more that 1K of code in it. 08:15:56 Robert: chuck's editor does formatting for you. 08:16:05 Robert: extra chars that don't get looked at by the compiler 08:16:52 I forget which chars have which bits, but eg.. if you had a redword jibberjabber, jibbe would probably be significant, and rjabber would be 2 insignificant words 08:16:56 orso 08:17:02 or actually I don't even remember if that's allowed 09:04:38 --- join: proteusguy (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 09:11:40 Hi proteusguy 09:11:41 --- join: bugslayer (guest@62.77.213.177) joined #forth 09:11:48 howdy 09:12:01 Robert: howdy! How goes it? 09:12:38 robert: forth coders coding with a block-based forth will have a block dedicated to loading all the other blocks 09:12:50 so like maybe you create a 10 block program 09:13:03 the first block LOADs blocks 2 to 10 09:13:11 and all you have to do is load the first block 09:14:03 chuck moore's colorforth is fussy about the vga card i think, not sure.. seems it has a higher probability of running on an older pentium.. runs fine on my pentium 100 09:14:09 100 mhz 09:14:28 yeah i prolly have an ati card 09:15:19 well laters 09:15:23 --- quit: bugslayer (Client Quit) 09:16:06 proteusguy: Fine, fine :) 09:16:22 Anything interesting with that AtMel? 09:16:54 Er...what do you mean? 09:17:18 Didn't you buy the AtMel kit? 09:17:30 Ah! Yes. 09:17:55 --- join: Shain (~steve@12-236-220-28.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 09:17:57 Now I'm working with a project to bring Forth on microcontrollers. 09:17:59 Hi Shain. 09:18:06 s/on/to/ 09:18:09 Good Morning 09:18:25 Cool - which microontrollers? 09:19:27 Well, AVRs, since that's what I have now. 09:19:53 The thing I'm working on now is a little bit of a toy project, since it probably will not get any practical use. 09:20:08 You writing your own for the AVR? How do you like the architecture? 09:20:13 My dream for future is to build my own Forth computer from scratch. 09:20:20 It's very neat. 09:20:27 100 times better than Microchip's PICs. 09:20:32 yep - there's the fun of it for sure. 09:20:40 Yeah - I really don't like PIC. 09:20:52 They might be useful for simple tasks. 09:21:05 But since AVRs cost about the same, I'd rather go with them. 09:22:10 Indeed. 09:25:45 futhin: i havent managed 2 run c4th inside any emu/simulation env 09:26:03 It would be fun to either work with someone who knows it, or learn more electronics, so I could construct a real computer. That would be alot of fun, I think. If I make it good, I could also make people ask theirselves what they really need of their cmoputer. 09:26:29 futhin: only an older p133 w an s3v2 videocard was able 2 boot it 09:27:01 c4th? 09:27:10 color4th 09:27:14 Yep - and their operating systems... :-) 09:28:10 I've written a graphics driver for VMWare 3.x, so I know what it takes, but I don't have the time to dig into the colorForth sources. 09:28:44 proteusguy: Yes. 09:46:21 * Robert reads the Chuck Moore chat logs. 09:49:14 --- join: ree (~ree@usr1-71.net-power.net) joined #forth 09:49:29 Hey ree. 09:49:38 You're a Forther now? :) 09:49:43 someone needs to register a forth-org-asm.org 09:49:47 heh 09:49:55 Heh. Sure. 09:49:56 nah, just curious.. thin is a friend of mine 09:50:13 Well, he knows Forth is good. 09:50:15 Ehm. 09:50:18 Wait a minute! 09:50:24 You're the Great Enemy(tm). 09:50:29 haha 09:50:32 why is that? 09:50:50 or have you said too much? :) 09:50:55 You argued against effective use of resources, and for buying the latest PCs! 09:51:06 Very unforthish. 09:51:18 thin: Convert him. 09:51:29 time is an important resource 09:51:37 latest PCs let you do more in less time 09:51:51 hence, I was right 09:52:16 reepeat after ree: 09:52:23 ree is reeght! 09:52:26 ree is reeght! 09:53:49 Noooo! 09:54:05 reeght! 09:54:07 Simplicity and efficient programs let you do more in less time.- 09:54:21 Check http://www.ultratechnology.com/ 09:54:28 simplicity and efficient 'programs' on efficient computers let you do EVEN more in less time 09:54:40 efficient/fast 09:54:48 time is worth way more than old technology 09:54:54 you just haven't figured that out yet 09:55:22 How can I do more on a sligtly faster computer? 09:55:29 slightly? 09:55:41 p4 2.4ghz is way faster than a 486 09:55:49 you just don't do much robert 09:55:53 Unless I'm doing _really_ CPU-heavy tasks, such as image/video processing, how do I use the extra speed? 09:55:55 not enough with your time that is 09:56:20 Robert: make the computer do more stuff for you. 09:56:27 so don't confuse what you do with your life with the efficiency of modern technology 09:56:52 TreyB: Such as...? 09:56:56 just because you don't need it doesn't make it any less efficient 09:58:51 Heh. 10:03:31 --- quit: ChanServ (ACK! SIGSEGV!) 10:04:01 heh, chanserv is really segv'ing a lot lately 10:04:05 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 10:04:05 --- mode: benford.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 10:04:05 --- mode: ChanServ set +l 83 10:04:11 Yes, hehe. 10:04:40 Not only that, there are big cracks in OPN. It looks like it will fall apart any minute. Not good. 10:04:55 you mean freeshitload? 10:05:43 I'm tired of freenode 10:06:15 I'd like to use efnet but if I even try to I end up being icmp'd, nick flooded... 10:06:39 not only that the frigging server names change every other hour 10:08:38 Heh. 10:21:09 grr 10:21:12 godaddy is weird 10:21:13 What? 10:21:23 What/who is that? 10:21:28 why must every single registrar have their own registration method 10:21:37 domain registrar 10:22:36 hahah 10:22:40 godaddy is in scottsdale arizona 10:22:44 where I was born 10:22:44 lol 10:22:51 that's kind of cool 11:02:40 With only DUP, DROP and OVER, how would you do a SWAP? 11:03:41 I mean... That's the MachineForth words Chuck uses, but how do I do if I want SWAP? 11:04:13 who you talking to rob? 11:06:44 Anyone who feels like answering. 11:07:02 Robert: I haven't been able to figure that out... 11:07:35 Hehe. 11:09:14 I've found that I can often just arrange things so a swap is unnecessary 11:09:23 happy forthing 11:09:40 or sometimes I'll just do an OVER, because I'm going to want the value again later 11:09:42 embed asm as often and as early as possible :) 11:09:45 --- part: ree left #forth 11:11:00 but it seems like sometimes SWAP would be necessary... 11:11:34 Yes... 11:11:58 I guess you could use the return stack, but that seems a bit too complicated for such a simple word. 11:12:29 I'm guessing Chuck's programming style works out so that he doesn't use it much 11:12:36 Maybe. 11:12:51 But on the other hand, I'm reading a document when he says it IS useful. 11:13:04 And that it's just not a machineForth instruction. 11:13:10 I've been meaning to ask Jeff Fox, but I forgot about it while he was on the other night... 11:13:28 hmm, yeah, I remember reading that, now that you mention it 11:13:52 1xforth.htm on ultratechnology. 11:17:39 : swap over >r >r drop r> r> ; 11:17:46 : swap over >r nip r> ; 11:18:44 Heh, as if there was a nip :P 11:19:19 But just look at that. 6 instructions. 11:19:33 And you use 2 words at the return stack. 11:22:04 How is FOR NEXT usually implemented? 11:22:13 It's said to be so easy to imlpement. 11:22:49 in forth, or in hardware? 11:23:40 I'm guessing it's easy in hardware -- lots of processors have an instruction that decrements and checks for 0 11:23:44 Hardware. 11:23:52 Where is the count stored? 11:24:10 there's probably a register for it 11:24:21 x86 has the CX register 11:24:34 PICs will let you do it on any register, I think 11:24:47 PPC has a special-purpose count register 11:25:04 Hm. How about stack machines? 11:26:04 hmmm... 11:26:40 Rob: depends.. if the top of the return stack behaves as a register with no push/pop overhead, you can put it there 11:27:34 yeah, I'd guess that would be the simplest 11:28:24 Now I remember the IF instruction. 11:28:44 Jump if TOS is 0, and -IF, jump if TOS is signed. 11:28:46 (iirc) 11:28:53 Could be handy. 11:29:08 And I think these don't even pop TOS. 11:30:50 Robert what machine were you thinking of that had no SWAP? 11:31:56 Well, whatever Chuck was talking about in the 1xforth interview. 11:32:38 Do Chuck's stack computers have it? 11:32:52 don't think c18 does... 11:34:33 doesn't look like F21 does either 11:34:45 Hmm... 11:34:53 I wonder how they do it without SWAP. 11:36:44 factor factor factor 11:37:28 Maybe that, but I still think it could get useful. 11:39:07 : swap a>r >r >a r> a> r>a ; \ hm.. seems like there should be less code than that 11:41:39 Where can I find a machineForth instruction set? 11:41:50 x18.html is gone from colorforth.com :-/ 11:42:40 the ones for f21 or the x18 page in google cache or http://www.colorforth.com/forth.html 11:43:01 Yes, I looked in the google cache. 11:43:07 Didn't find any today. 11:44:31 Thanks anyway, 11:44:55 forth.html does have an instruction set 11:46:33 Yes, that's what I thanked you for. :) 11:46:50 Any idea how *+ is used? 11:47:12 not off the top of my head 11:47:27 afaik, it is to accelerate software multiply 11:47:35 Yes. 11:47:52 Well, if you can find some example of how it's used, please notice me :) 11:48:38 I _think_ it adds two things and then shifts the result left...something like that 11:49:11 Hmm.. I think I read it adds TOS and NOS of TOS is odd. 11:49:21 Or something similar. 11:49:26 something 11:50:00 you could look for or figure out a good multiplication algorithm -- then it would probably be obvious what it does :) 11:50:37 Probably. Figuring out algorithms (especially good ones!) isn't one of my strengths. 11:51:38 Hm. What are @r and !r useful for, except what XeF4 suggested? :) 11:53:29 +* ( n1 n2 -- n1 n2 | n1 n1+n2 ) \ multiply step opcode 11:53:29 \ conditional nondestructive add opcode DUP 1 AND IF OVER + THEN 11:54:28 Robert: @r and !r are not r@ and r! 11:54:44 @r and !r give you an extra pointer regiter 11:55:53 Isn't that the usual addressing register, used for @ and ! ? 11:56:25 at leaston Chuck's chips, the usual addressing register is a 11:56:25 Oh. 11:56:34 Now I see. 11:56:44 So top of return stack can be used for addressing, too? 11:56:51 dereferenced with @a and !a or @ and ! depending on what mood he was in while writingthe docs orso 11:56:54 yes 11:57:00 Is return stack popped? 11:57:20 not sure 11:57:38 http://www.ultratechnology.com/mfp21.htm 12:00:40 --- quit: skylan ("Reconnecting") 12:01:06 --- join: skylan (sjh@Riverview84.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 12:13:57 --- quit: XeF4 ("pois") 12:26:25 Does anyone know how you compare things in colorForth? Chuck says he doesn't use the -IF instruction. With IF you can check for zero/non-zero, but how would you write < and > ? 12:28:19 hmm...looks like about 1.3% of my words are SWAP 12:29:48 where does he say he doesn't use -IF? it's one of those 27 on colorforth.com/forth.html... 12:30:37 I had assumed he just subtracted (in the right direction) and then used an IF or a -IF 12:30:41 : < - 0x80000000 and ; 12:31:08 oh right. he just checks the top bit with -if I think... 12:31:22 : < - ; 12:31:46 : > < -1 xor ; 12:31:54 : > swap < ; 12:39:34 tathi: He says in 1xforth.htm that he doesn't use it. 12:39:50 tathi: He thought he would use it to check for signed integers, but found out that's rarley needed. 12:45:42 ah. hmm. 14:23:57 --- quit: Herkamire ("leaving") 14:24:28 --- quit: tathi ("later all...") 14:38:38 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:52:28 --- join: proteusguy (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 16:10:56 Robert: : - invert 1+ + ; 16:11:47 Robert: that is: he doesnt really need the substraction operation 16:16:05 Robert: hm... but thats not an answer... :/ 16:16:28 * onetom continues 2 figure out this issue 16:23:52 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:24:10 --- join: proteusguy (~username@65.191.88.177) joined #forth 16:42:15 you don't need divide or subtraction. just plus and multiply or whatever 16:42:21 * thin isn't really paying attention 16:42:26 sleeeepy 16:44:28 me 2 16:44:48 & still busy w configuring linux boxes 16:46:15 onetom: so what is the majority of your time getting taken by? 16:46:20 spending a lot of time with zope? 16:48:10 yup 16:48:22 for work? 16:48:40 yeah :/ 16:48:53 working more than 40 hours a week? 16:49:13 are you still working with your dad on the microcontroller business? 16:49:31 sure 16:49:56 but i mainly make just small adjustments on the pc side program rarelz 16:50:15 & no, working more that 40hrs a day ;) 16:51:28 uknow, i have a friend & he pay me reasonably well 16:51:46 for doing what? 16:52:29 4 being a technical/strategical consultant, informatical solutions designer & programmer 16:52:42 so a general problem solver 16:52:53 like wolf in pulp fiction or 16:53:17 the bicycle repair man from a monty python sketch 16:53:51 or the phone mender in the film "brazil" 16:54:12 (or maybe brasil in english ;) 16:56:00 ah, and a also project manager & infact im also his proxy man when he is away 16:56:09 hm 16:56:22 how much time do you spend on that job? 16:56:34 :) depends on 16:56:57 i was terribly busy last weeks but other times, not much 16:57:32 lo 16:57:45 a friend and i have been discussing the possibility of doing a web design business 16:57:54 we're going to do some market research 16:58:00 uknow, im still in application @ the botanical department of the univ of szeged as a "soldier" 16:58:06 and target small businesses i guess 16:58:09 to start 16:58:27 onetom: i thought that was what the zope was for? 16:58:31 for your soldier job? 16:58:36 nooo 16:58:48 how many hours a week do you spend on the soldier job? 16:58:57 its for this job of my friend 16:59:13 he has a "webdesigner" company 16:59:53 well... actually... i live in a library room of the univ building 16:59:59 --- quit: proteusguy ("Client Exiting") 17:00:48 so its hard 2 tell, but absolutely not much :) 17:01:02 its actually a cover... 17:01:26 i didnt wanna b a real soldier 4 6months 17:02:21 &its allowed 2 ?give? civil service @ any nonprofit company instead 17:02:21 are you comfy in the library room? you've got access to a fast connection, that must be an increased standard of living? :) 17:02:38 but it lasts 4 11months. thats the deal 17:03:04 are you comfy in the library room? you've got access to a fast connection, that must be an increased standard of living? :) 17:07:37 re 17:13:42 sup ianni 17:13:55 how's your forth coding going? 17:29:52 well.. its getting more & more concise 17:30:25 but i dont write significant amount of code nowdays 17:31:22 thin - it's not 17:31:45 ive been working on documentation for an app of mine recently 17:31:52 but ive lost a bit of interest in forth 17:31:59 it need to spend more time with it 17:32:23 --- mode: ChanServ set +o thin 17:32:40 thin: :) im pretty satisfied w the 10Mbit/s speed, so it doesnt matter i have 2 sleep on the floor (on a polifoam actually ;) 17:33:01 a lil foamie is plently comfortable! :D 17:33:18 prolly better for the back anyways 17:33:32 everybody agrees on that :) 17:33:34 i think sleeping on the floor is better for my back 17:33:46 w/ a foamie 17:33:50 or a futon 17:34:04 so i dont really understand why do ppl sleep in beds... ;/ 17:34:28 hah 17:34:30 ah, futon = tatami 17:34:52 beds are comfortable 17:35:00 but i feel comfortable on the ground 17:35:02 as well 17:35:28 ianni: i also sleep in bed roughly once a week (w me gf ;) 17:35:46 thin - basically im a high level weenie. seems to me i need to become a low leel weenie or else i have no way to make UI's and stuff. I can do math in forth, but tahts about it, and it seems useless (at tis point in t time) 17:35:47 ianni: but not the bed makes the difference but the company ;) 17:35:56 onetom hahah :) 17:36:23 thin so basically i need to get comfortable being a 4th hacker. :) 17:36:31 wil take some owrk 17:36:33 work 17:36:43 ianni: try 2 experiment w algorithms.. 17:36:45 ianni: my reaction after reading ultratechnology.com/structs.htm and essence.htm was "yay! i'm uncontaminated by a C world and I don't think in a C context" ;) 17:36:46 i think i might be more motivated if i set up a forth machine 17:37:05 ianni: immagine a memory manager & write some "simulation" 4 it 17:37:30 onetom, yeah, you're very right, thats the kind of stuff i should be doing 17:37:35 ianni: play w multitasking & compete hundreds of tasks 4 the processor 17:37:44 but *what* to write :) 17:37:53 i have to get it into my heart so i desire it 17:37:58 you know ? 17:37:59 virtualize everything! 17:38:04 1st the screen 17:38:21 im afraid & lazy. I need to kick myself in the ass :) 17:38:32 create virtual screens 4 tasks 17:38:44 1st - eg - simple interpreter tasks 17:38:50 onetom, yeah, baby steps 17:39:11 quite how forth works actually :) 17:39:14 then write 2 communication task 17:39:26 s 17:39:34 good ideas 17:39:49 im sure i will find it is harder than i thought, and subsequently easier than i thought 17:39:50 a talk-like stuff w an irc-like interface 17:39:56 :) 17:40:18 u gonna have a lot of problems w string handling in this area, 4 example... 17:40:27 yeah 17:40:36 and i really have ot learn memory management 17:40:51 i stlil havent done any. 17:40:55 other than simple variables.. 17:40:58 try 2 translate the interface 2 another human language (localize it) 17:41:08 wel... 17:41:14 onetom: HAhaha... you're scaring me now 17:41:19 =] 17:41:34 play w tasks 1st 17:41:44 get comfortable w user variables 17:41:51 then try 2 think about the mem manager 17:42:23 & ask urself: is it really a unavoidable need? 17:42:51 coz, tasks r like object instances: 17:43:02 I need to learn to abstract my problems, yes 17:43:18 they reserve the area 4 their data structures 17:43:49 thin, I think i really grok the idea of forth, so the interdependence of C is one of the things that makes me feel so isolated - but i never would have started if i didnt appreciate what forth is 17:43:59 MY depdence on C i mean 17:44:07 I actually learned JAva before really learning C 17:44:13 I'm totally backwards :) 17:44:19 trying 2 fix myself now 17:44:26 :))) 17:44:33 i could help, ithink 17:44:45