00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.11.01
00:09:51 --- join: joonas (jpihlaja@kruuna.helsinki.fi) joined #forth
00:10:20 <thin> hello joonas
00:10:52 <thin> well i gotta go to bed, be back in 8 hours :P
00:10:54 <thin> good night all
00:10:57 <joonas> hello thin.  What's the topic of discussion now?
00:11:09 <thin> joonas:  not much topic of discussion, it's slow at the moment
00:11:17 <thin> but you can see what we talked about today at
00:11:22 <thin> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/forth/
00:11:33 <joonas> thanks.  Can't really chat now anyway... just popped in to see what's going on.
00:11:57 <thin> we're an active chan, so hang around when you can :)
00:12:46 <joonas> ok.  will keep an eye on the irc window then.
00:13:22 <thin> yeah, but dont expect it to be active for 8 hours or so :P
00:13:32 <thin> unless onetom and robert start talking up a storm
00:13:58 <joonas> it's mostly US folk who hang around then?
00:14:40 <thin> well robert is from sweden, onetom is from hungary, and a few others, but yeah, most of the people seem to be from us or canada
00:16:38 --- quit: thin ("sleep")
02:46:47 --- quit: joonas ("2.8.2-EPIC3.004+Kasi -- just do it.")
04:28:32 --- join: highlaender (~highlaend@mnch-d9ba4175.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth
04:37:46 --- part: highlaender left #forth
04:39:13 --- join: highlaender (~highlaend@mnch-d9ba4175.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth
05:46:55 --- quit: skylan ("change in plan, stan!")
06:05:06 --- quit: highlaender (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
06:12:45 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth
06:14:42 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth
06:48:42 --- join: tathi (~josh@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth
08:03:01 --- join: joonas (jpihlaja@kruuna.helsinki.fi) joined #forth
08:03:55 <joonas> Hello everyone.
08:04:01 <Herkamire> joonas: hello :)
08:04:37 <Herkamire> joonas: are you a forth nut too?
08:04:53 <joonas> Herkamire: sort of... 
08:05:18 <Herkamire> have you written a forth?
08:05:23 <joonas> joona
08:05:25 <joonas> oops
08:05:34 <joonas> Yes, hasn't everyone? :-)
08:05:46 <Herkamire> writting your own forth probably qualifies you :) :)
08:05:55 <Herkamire> most people in here have :)
08:06:16 <joonas> It's not really worthy though... strictly a DIY job  for myself.
08:06:39 <Herkamire> I learned a lot making a forth. but I don't use it :)
08:07:24 <joonas> I use mine to debug other peoples implementations of the VM it was built for.   Forth is pretty good at that sort of thing.
08:08:49 <joonas> I actually came here to get opinions on isforth, iforth and lib4th.  Do you guys have much experience with them?
08:09:39 <Herkamire> I've tried isforth, but I don't have an x86 box except for servers at work.
08:10:13 <tathi> the guy who wrote isforth created this channel, though he's not online at the moment...
08:10:14 <Herkamire> I haven't used it enough to really say, but it seemed good.
08:10:40 <joonas> Unfortunately I only own x86 nowadays...  Had to forfeit to their price. :-(
08:10:47 <Herkamire> yeah, the author of isforth is in here about 12 hours a day as I440r
08:11:20 <joonas> I'd rather get someone else's opinions that the authors, if you see what I mean. :)
08:11:27 <joonas> that-->than
08:11:33 <Herkamire> I do :)
08:12:09 <Herkamire> if you want technical details then he's your man.
08:12:25 <Herkamire> I'm not sure anyone has really done any programming in isforth.
08:12:49 <Herkamire> if you see tcn in here he may have a more informed opinion on isforth
08:13:19 <joonas> Who's tcn?
08:13:27 <joonas> Does he hang about c.l.f.?
08:13:39 <Herkamire> maybe
08:13:49 <Herkamire> I've never been there
08:14:20 <Herkamire> I hear it's mostly ans forthers.
08:14:42 <Herkamire> I hang here, and read things from Jeff Fox and Chuck Moore
08:14:58 <joonas> Mostly, I guess.  Tho I'm all for ANS Forth.  (Or is that a politically incorrect thing to admit here? ;-))
08:15:37 <Herkamire> most of us here dislike ANS forth. and some of us hate it with a fiery passion :)
08:15:46 <XeF4> I don'
08:15:53 <joonas> Heh.. best not touch that topic then...
08:16:00 <XeF4> I don't dislike ANS forth as a standard,  but I do dislike mindless adherence to the same.
08:16:02 <Herkamire> joonas: it's fine.
08:16:28 <Herkamire> we have a docil crowd at the moment :)
08:17:03 <tathi> bah. it's mostly I440r who goes on rants about it ;)
08:17:12 <Herkamire> joonas: what do you like about ans?
08:17:29 <tathi> I've used isforth enough to say that it seems pretty solid and clean, but not much more than that
08:17:44 <tathi> haven't tried lib4th, and never heard of iforth though...
08:17:45 <joonas> What I like about it is that with only a little tweaking I could run Tetris and The Forth chess program on my system.
08:18:47 <Herkamire> does the chess program have AI?
08:19:12 <joonas> Also the memory allocator by Mitch Bradley on taygeta and Anton Ertl's garbage collector (not that the latter gets used any).
08:19:36 <Herkamire> cool
08:19:57 <joonas> AI... depends on the definition.  It's apparently an alpha-beta search with *lots* of tweaks and optimisations.
08:20:21 <joonas> I've heard it runs faster than the C version it was based on.
08:20:21 <Herkamire> works for me. I was wondering if you could play against the computer ;)
08:21:27 <joonas> Sure.  It's got a particularly Forth-like interface... IIRC:  "a4 b3 mv" moves a4 to b3, or vice versa.  It's been a while I played it.
08:21:45 <joonas> All in the outer interpreter loop.
08:21:56 <Herkamire> I may change my views on portability later, but my corrent tactic is to ignore it, and factor factor factor, and document what I'm doing in detail (and my data structures) well.
08:23:35 <joonas> How do you deal with 'generic' data structures?  The problem I always face is that if I put things in FORTH-WORDLIST I have to use names like HASH-INSERT, which quickly makes them ugly.
08:23:56 <Herkamire> I don't make generic datastructures.
08:23:59 <joonas> :-)
08:24:13 <Herkamire> I make effecient/practical ones, and document them so you could easily port/rewrite my program
08:24:36 <XeF4> joonas: put them in different vocabularies?
08:24:52 <XeF4> so also hash hash ops and whatnot asdf jkl previous
08:24:56 <Herkamire> much of my forth programming ATM is quite low level and can't really be portable anyway
08:25:31 <joonas> XeF4:  Yes, but then the ALSOs and PREVIOUSs clutter up the code too much, which is worse. :-(
08:26:34 <XeF4> they can, but I've not had too terrible problems with them
08:26:48 <Herkamire> (e.g. I just implemented sockets)
08:26:52 <XeF4> since when I use one word from some vocabulary, I usually use others too
08:27:03 <joonas> XeF4: I mean often you only want to call a single word of, say a hash module, in the words that use the hash.
08:27:07 <XeF4> so it's not as if I need an ALSO and PREVIOUS per invocation
08:27:10 <joonas> Ok... I guess that would work.
08:28:02 <Herkamire> why don't you just put a prefix (like hash_) on your hash words?
08:28:09 <joonas> Herkamire:  sockets? Cool!  Did you have to implement a complete TCP/IP stack? (scary)
08:28:43 <Herkamire> joonas: no, just syscalls. I'm working on fpos, which is still under linux. we'll have to do a TCP/IP stack later though when we start booting it.
08:29:05 <joonas> Herkamire: what's fpos?
08:29:07 <Herkamire> (fpos in a native ppc forth that tathi is writing)
08:29:22 <Herkamire> it doesn't do much yet
08:29:36 <joonas> What's your development platform?
08:29:43 <Herkamire> ppc linux
08:30:12 <joonas> doh... you said as much before. :)
08:30:21 <Herkamire> :)
08:30:51 <Herkamire> it will stay ppc unless/untill someone get's it into their head to port it. it won't be me or tathi though...
08:31:33 <Herkamire> hey, maybe the PC world will switch over to ppc processors :)
08:31:44 <joonas> Last time I looked at a PPC user's manual was a 601 manual...  The cache behaviour scared me away after having been used to MC680x0. :)
08:32:27 <Herkamire> yeah, it was a bitch to figure out and get the cache fluching working (for writing to code space). But tathi figured it out
08:32:32 <joonas> Yeah, when pigs fly.  (Though I wish they would.)
08:32:51 <Herkamire> I think they're going to have to switch
08:33:11 <Herkamire> I don't get the impression that the x86 arch is going much further. but I don't know much about it.
08:33:26 <Herkamire> whatever
08:33:58 <joonas> Hang on, I'm getting another beer.
08:34:02 <Herkamire> I thought I heard that MS got some version of NT to run on a ppc
08:34:48 --- join: thin (~thin@h68-146-166-145.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth
08:36:04 <tathi> ppc caches actually aren't bad unless you're trying to store code in memory and then execute it
08:36:17 <tathi> (i.e. you're writing a debugger or program loader or native-code forth or some such)
08:37:02 <tathi> otherwise they seem to mostly just be fine on their own without you having to do anything
08:40:32 <joonas> thin: have you used isforth, iforth or lib4th?
08:40:58 <thin> i use isforth
08:41:08 <thin> isforth is nice because it's coded in asm and it's closer to the metal
08:41:18 <thin> and it uses syscalls instead of using libc or something lame ;)
08:41:48 <joonas> Can it run as init?
08:42:11 <thin> i like isforth because i think it's more tight and efficient, even though it is still in beta phase and isn't fully developed yet
08:42:13 <thin> init? 
08:42:18 <thin> initd?
08:42:35 <thin> isforth code can run as a script..
08:42:45 <joonas> I mean as the first process to run on linux.
08:42:50 <thin> # /bin/isforth - fload blah.f
08:42:56 <thin> hmm
08:42:59 <thin> possibly
08:43:34 <thin> ask i440r, he's the one developing isforth, and he's on here fairly frequently
08:43:56 <thin> joonas:  if it uses curses does that prevent it from running as init?
08:44:00 <joonas> (That's not actually important to me... just curious as you mentioned that it only uses syscalls)
08:44:19 <Herkamire> thin: isforth doesn't use curses... does it?
08:44:34 <Herkamire> I440r is anti-library
08:44:42 <thin> it doesn't use curses
08:44:43 <thin> nevermind heh
08:45:00 <thin> he was reverse engineering curses tho
08:45:03 <thin> i forget why
08:45:49 <joonas> I've been trying to get to isforth.dss.net to download isforth, but am failing.
08:45:53 <joonas> What's the documentation like?
08:46:36 <thin> there's none
08:46:46 <joonas> lol
08:46:48 <thin> i've been assigned the task of doing the documentation heh ;)
08:47:07 <thin> and i'll be doing it slowly
08:47:08 <thin> well
08:47:11 <thin> i'll do the helpsystem first
08:47:22 <joonas> So when's the first release? :-)
08:47:40 <thin> depends
08:47:54 <tathi> joonas: CLss.net, not Dss.net...or was that a typo?
08:48:06 <thin> if i don't suddenly do it really fast, it could come out in march ;)
08:48:14 <thin> isforth.clss.net
08:48:32 <joonas> tathi: thanks...  the fonts on this computer suck.
08:48:36 <tathi> heh
08:48:38 <joonas> brb
08:52:11 <thin> what does fpos stand for ?
08:52:21 <thin> it makes me think of "forth piece of shit" heh
08:52:45 <thin> not that i think your forth would suck, on the contrary
08:53:12 <tathi> yeah, it stands for that when debugging sessions are going badly
08:53:22 <joonas> I *like* the README.  Mark has some attitude. ;)
08:53:35 <thin> heh, yep :)
08:53:54 <thin> tathi: so what does it stand for?
08:54:21 <tathi> thin: Forth PPC Operating System
08:54:27 <tathi> or some such
08:54:31 <thin> ah
08:54:50 <thin> but it's more of a forth than an operating system :P
08:54:59 <thin> isn't OS redundant? ;)
08:55:27 <joonas> I never understood 
08:55:31 <tathi> herk and I aren't generally terribly creative about naming things
08:55:34 <thin> joonas: do you read ultratechnology.com articles?    like www.ultratechnology.com/structs.htm
08:55:38 <joonas> Mark's aversion for recursion.
08:55:45 <joonas> thin: yes
08:56:10 <tathi> it just needed to be called something so we knew which project we were talking about, as I think I had another forth going at the same time when I started fpos.
08:56:12 <XeF4> sounds like he still has bruises from some CS teacher's switch
08:56:42 <thin> recursion is slower and kinda inefficient on the x86..   however, recursion on a forthchip (with the return stack)  is a different story altogether :)
08:56:51 <joonas> Or has lived too close to the metal for too long?
08:57:06 <Herkamire> joonas I440r (Mark) doesn't seem to grasp the concept of tail recursion.
08:57:19 <thin> the recursive algorithm will often be easier to implement but slower than the iterative version
08:57:30 <XeF4> thin: recursion and iteration compile to the same instructions on x86 if you do it right.
08:57:47 <joonas> True, but far simpler to understand, which is important most of the time, IMHO.
08:58:14 <thin> recursion involves calling and pushing the registers..  who says that iteration will do the same?
08:58:16 <XeF4> at least on Moore's colorforth and my efforts, they do.
08:58:29 <XeF4> thin: you can optimize that out.
08:58:41 <XeF4> thin: that is tail-call elimination
08:59:24 <thin> joonas:  there's an iterative algorithm of quicksort that is apparently faster than the recursive version  (there was a little benchmark),  and the iterative version implemented stacks heh
08:59:51 <thin> implemented stacks anyways
09:00:29 <Herkamire> thin: it's a matter of style and implementation. I440r isn't into recursive, so he hasn't written the compiler to do it quickly
09:00:46 <joonas> thin:  I don't doubt that.  What I doubt is the need for 100% processor utilisation 100% of the time.  If we thought like that, we'd still be programming in assembler all of our work.
09:01:02 <thin> herkamire: he doesn't believe in optimization either
09:01:10 <thin> so would the compiler really do it quickly?
09:01:14 <tathi> um...Mark _is_ still programming in assembler for as much stuff as possible, I think :)
09:01:20 <joonas> thin:  I do think that *where is counts* assembler should be used.
09:01:33 <thin> naw, he's got a lot of forth code now
09:01:47 <Herkamire> thin: yes. all you have to do is when you compile a return, you check if the previous thing compiled is a call, and if it is replace it with a branch.
09:01:50 <XeF4> thin: now I understand.  You're confusing performance of algorithm in general with isforth's quirks.
09:01:53 <thin> joonas:  lies, we'd be coding in forth obviously ;)
09:02:01 <joonas> :)
09:02:34 <Herkamire> thin: or, if you want it explicit, you can make a word like TAIL; which will compile a branch to the start of the word instead of returning.
09:02:42 <thin> xef4:  not really, i did say some stuff about the algorithm separately from isforth's quirks
09:03:11 <XeF4> you said it involved pushing and subroutine branching
09:03:35 <XeF4> Hear: isforth has goto iirc
09:04:19 <XeF4> Herk, even
09:05:23 <joonas> thin:  isforth is assembled with an Intel-syntax assmbler?
09:05:34 <thin> with nasm
09:06:02 <thin> yeah intel-syntax i guess..   if at & t is the weird one then the it's intel-syntax ;P
09:06:31 <thin> -the
09:06:56 <joonas> (I won't get caught in that spider web) ;)
09:07:23 <thin> only if you disagree with me :P
09:07:26 <thin> naw
09:07:27 <thin> j/k
09:08:50 <joonas> What about iforth or lib4th?  Anyone have experience with them?
09:09:16 <XeF4> not I
09:10:11 <joonas> I'm *this* close to buying iForth, but would need some other-people's-experiences first.
09:10:36 * joonas squeezes fingers together
09:11:04 <joonas> Especially as regards robustness on Linux platforms.
09:12:23 <joonas> I'm really impressed by the compiled code that Marcel posts to c.l.f. once in a while.
09:13:14 <XeF4> I have not used any commercial forths at all, unless you count jforth
09:13:33 <thin> joonas: what are you looking for in a forth?
09:13:45 <thin> and besides, wouldn't it be preferable for the forth to be coded in asm?
09:14:12 <thin> forths coded in C aren't really forths anyways 
09:14:24 <thin> and this opinion is expressed in www.ultratechnology.com/structs.htm  :P
09:14:37 <thin> too much C context
09:15:05 <thin> and that ends up ruining some of the advantages of forth anyways
09:16:16 <thin> oh, iforth is a windows forth
09:16:20 <joonas> I don't really care what a forth is coded in.  As long as I can use it the way I expect, and preferably get good execution times as well.
09:16:22 <thin> yeah it looks good
09:16:30 <thin> isforth runs only on linux
09:16:35 <thin> lib4th runs on linux
09:16:38 <thin> iforth runs on windows
09:17:10 <joonas> thin: iForth runs on both windows (NT/2000) and (some) linuces.
09:17:35 <joonas> I'd just like to know how well it does so on various linux distributions.
09:17:36 <thin> oh right, i see it on the page now
09:18:15 <XeF4> joonas: do you plan to implement anything in particular in iforth?
09:18:18 <Herkamire> thin: www.ultratechnology.com/structs.htm doesn't say _anything_ about what language the forth is written in
09:18:39 <Herkamire> thin: you're starting to sound like I440r. 
09:19:23 <XeF4> except that I440r's attitude is or at least seems to be justified by experience
09:19:34 <thin> herkamire: it says something about forths coded in c iirc
09:19:38 <thin> or maybe it was essence.htm
09:19:46 <joonas> xef4: I'm planning to implement a few VM's that run (hopefully) faster than the currently available implementations.
09:20:00 <XeF4> thin: would you at least READ Fox' blather before telling everyone else to read it?
09:20:23 <Herkamire> thin: it definately does _not_ say anything even hinting that "forths coded in C aren't really forths"
09:20:32 <joonas> xef4: It's not really an issuea before I graduate tho...  That *must* come first. ;)
09:20:45 <XeF4> joonas: what sort of VMs?
09:20:58 <Herkamire> joonas: use an open source forth
09:21:11 * XeF4 must disappear for booze and sauna and booze and whatever in a few min
09:21:35 <joonas> xef4: Glulx, a portable VM for running IF games.  Remember infocom?  Something similar.
09:22:01 * joonas wishes xef4 good sauna
09:22:05 <XeF4> vaguely
09:22:51 * joonas gets another beer
09:22:55 --- quit: XeF4 ("pois")
09:30:35 <joonas> Why are there tildes before lots of the email addresses of people on this channel?
09:52:09 <ianni> they aren't email addresses
09:52:26 <ianni> they're usernames
09:52:44 <ianni> irc has that, because think about a shell machine... more than one user per host
09:54:20 <joonas> ah...
10:02:56 <ianni> pr3d4t0r: EXML
10:06:50 <joonas> http://www.alt-pasteur.fr/~letondal/XML/Pise/predator.xml.in  ?
10:06:59 <joonas> :)
10:33:00 <Herkamire> I can't resolve www.alt-pasteur.fr
10:34:46 <joonas> Ooops.. (wasn't paying attention to the irc window).  Say "Predator XML" to google and feel lucky.
10:35:17 <joonas> Pick predator.xml.in from the list of file names.
10:39:00 <joonas> http://www-alt.pasteur.fr/~letondal/XML/Pise/
10:44:15 <ianni> ha
10:46:22 <joonas> So what do you guys use forth for?
10:47:09 <joonas> If you don't care to answer that, then does the the magic number $42424242 say anything to you?
10:47:41 <joonas> w.r.t. linux and memory management.
10:48:07 <ianni> nothing
10:48:09 <ianni> because I am a newbie
10:48:14 <ianni> and I suck at low level stuff.
10:48:20 <ianni> I learned forth though
10:48:27 <ianni> very cool...
10:48:48 <joonas> ianni:  what forths do you use?
10:49:34 <joonas> ianni: and what for?
10:52:22 <ianni> i dont
10:52:28 <ianni> I use isforth right now, just to learn...
10:52:36 <ianni> im not a hacker enough to produce things I need..
10:52:43 <ianni> I learned on gforth, too
10:53:05 <ianni> i mostly do C, Objective C, and Java
10:54:44 <joonas> What's Objective C like?
10:54:52 <ianni> it's like if C++ kicked ass...
10:55:07 <ianni> and was more like smalltalk...
10:57:22 <ianni> it's a really good OO subset for C..
10:57:27 <ianni> everythign id dynamic
10:57:28 <ianni> is
10:57:46 <ianni> everythign is a "id" pointer type.. and repsond to messages - not moethods
10:57:49 <ianni> its cool
10:57:50 <joonas> :)  Sounds like fun.
10:57:53 <ianni> it is :)
10:58:07 * Robert is mostly using assembly, C and Forth.
10:58:25 <Robert> I use Forth for fun only ;)
10:58:49 <Robert> Probably I'll find a real use sooner or later.
10:59:00 * joonas looking up Objective C
10:59:02 <Robert> I'm getting into microcontrollers and such.
10:59:22 <Robert> $42424242... Heh.
10:59:46 <Robert> Sounds like a parody of the hitchhiker's giude to the galaxy.
11:03:34 <joonas> Heh... check out www.objective-c.org  All gamling and stuff. :)
11:03:57 <joonas> Do they really think they're going to get lots of hits from that
11:04:02 <joonas> heh
11:04:20 <ianni> http://www.geom.umn.edu/software/w3kit/overview/objective-c.html
11:04:24 <ianni> not the prettiest..
11:05:32 <ianni> you really start to see the benefits once you start coding...
11:06:07 <Robert> Ehm.
11:06:18 <Robert> In DOS, what file number is stdin?
11:08:10 <ianni> good luck :)
11:08:12 <ianni> DOS sucks 
11:08:45 <Robert> Heh.
11:08:50 <ianni> i have no idea.
11:09:00 <Robert> Well, my 486 doesn't like any UNIX system.
11:09:05 <ianni> that's too bad...
11:09:08 <Robert> Except maybe Minix, but it's boring without Internet.
11:09:09 <ianni> not even linux?
11:09:28 <Robert> Well, I used to have Debian. Maybe I could get the old potato running again.
11:09:31 <Robert> Woody didn't want to.
11:09:36 <joonas> I ran Debian 2.0 on a 486
11:10:02 <Robert> Well, now I'm doing some DOS coding on it.
11:10:06 <joonas> Potato r0... for a year or two.
11:10:07 <Robert> Got plenty of free space.
11:10:14 <Robert> (About 800MB)
11:18:50 <tathi> Robert: stdin, stdout, stderr are supposed to be 0, 1, 2. IIRC that holds true under DOS...
11:19:15 <tathi> s/supposed to be/usually/
11:20:30 <Robert> Yeah, I thought so. However, when I read() one byte from stdin, I don't get any prompt :-/
11:21:18 <Robert> Might be some other error.
11:21:22 * Robert triple-checks.
11:48:10 <joonas> got to go... bye everyone
11:48:20 --- quit: joonas ("ircII2.8.2-EPIC3.004+Kasi --- Bloatware at its finest.")
11:56:11 --- quit: thin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
12:01:26 --- join: thin (thin@h68-146-166-145.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth
12:02:46 <Robert> Hey thin :)
12:02:55 <Robert> What have you been doing latley?
12:03:04 <Robert> I don't think I've seen any of your projects.
12:07:04 <thin> still working on the telnet client heh
12:07:22 <thin> not sure if isforth is buggy cause it keeps doing a segmentation fault core dump heh
12:07:31 <thin> gonna talk to i440r when he gets on
12:07:52 <thin> i think i might not be allowed to do
12:08:01 <thin> : telnet-emit 1 sp@ telnet-write ;
12:08:22 <thin> where telnet-write is expecting the address of a buffer and 1 is the length of the buffer to send out the socket
12:08:31 <Robert> IsForth can't do anything wrong, YOU do!
12:08:33 <Robert> :P
12:09:12 <thin> well i'm gonna go test my theory now
12:13:09 <thin> hm
12:13:29 <Robert> Hm?
12:13:45 <thin> yeah i modified the working code to 1 sp@ telnet-write and it stopped working
12:14:26 * Robert tries to install Debian 2.2 on his 486.
12:14:41 <thin> robert: that shouldn't be hard
12:14:46 <Robert> Nope.
12:14:54 <Robert> I've had it there before.
12:15:06 <Robert> Tried to install 3.0, but it didn't work.
12:24:52 --- join: gNoam (xru52729fj@ip2-65.vancbc01g01.dialup.ca.telus.com) joined #forth
12:25:22 <gNoam> didn't there used to be a channelbot here which would interpret forth code???
12:25:37 <Robert> Yup.
12:26:30 <Robert> IRC is funny. Half of the people use no question marks, the rest use three or more :)
12:27:19 <gNoam> no for me the more questions marks, the more tentative my question
12:27:25 <gNoam> right?
12:27:32 <gNoam> or am i really going out on a limb???
12:27:45 <Robert> Heh.
12:27:52 <gNoam> tentative can also be polite or deferential, as in "please don't flame me!"
12:27:56 <Robert> One question mark is enough. ;)
12:28:14 <Robert> So, what's going on? Any interesting projects?
12:29:40 <gNoam> i will send you a lengthy e-mail about my interest in forth... /msg me with your address if you're interested
12:29:59 <gNoam> i'm just mentioning this channel while composing the message; almost finished
12:30:37 <Robert> Hm?
12:32:32 <gNoam> i just came on the channel to ask about the bot
12:32:37 <Robert> Oh.
12:32:44 <gNoam> i'm composing a lengthy message about my interest in forth
12:32:48 <Robert> Why?
12:32:58 <gNoam> because of the slashdot article yesterday, and
12:33:13 <Robert> Slashdot article?
12:33:14 <gNoam> because i am constantly talking about Forth to my computing friends ;-)
12:33:20 <Robert> Hah.
12:33:26 <gNoam> i can just e-mail you my message if you're interested
12:33:37 <gNoam> easier than explaining ad nauseam
12:33:40 <Robert> Nah, it's OK.
12:34:14 <gNoam> i met Chuck Moore in the late 80s here in Vancouver
12:34:17 <gNoam> interesting guy
12:34:33 <Robert> Heh.
12:34:39 <Robert> I am born '86 :)
12:34:57 <Robert> I've only talked to him over IRC ;)
12:35:11 <gNoam> where did/does he hang out on irc?
12:35:44 <Robert> Here.
12:35:57 <Robert> He's just been here a few times.
12:35:59 <gNoam> oh really?
12:36:03 <Robert> Yes.
12:36:09 <gNoam> what nick does he use?
12:37:33 <Robert> ChipChuck.
12:37:41 <gNoam> ah
12:38:34 <thin> he's only been here 3 times afaik
12:38:49 <thin> mostly because i hosted an interview with him here
12:38:51 <Robert> Haven't counted, but that sounds reasonable.
12:38:53 <Robert> Yes.
12:41:41 <gNoam> what was the interview for?
12:42:52 <thin> http://www.ultratechnology.com/chatlog.htm
12:43:02 <thin> it was just a interview
12:43:06 <thin> people msged me questions to ask him
12:43:09 <thin> and i pasted it
12:43:15 <thin> s/it/them
12:45:32 <Robert> 21:48 <@Arken> Speaking of which, I saw a great bumper sticker today. It said "Re-Elect Gore in 2004!"
12:45:35 <Robert> Hah.
12:45:45 <gNoam> thanks for URL
12:45:51 <Robert> And another one saw, "Don't blame me, my vote didn't count!"
12:52:05 <Robert> "One example were the 3270 terminals. They had many employees who used IBM 3270 terminals to talk to their mainframes. They replaced them with PC running 3270 emulation programs. This allowed them to continue to spend thousands of dollars per machine every year for needless hardware and software upgrades even though all of these users only ever ran one piece of software, 3270 emulation."
12:52:09 <gNoam> my forth-related e-mail is interesing (imho) and contains /. link and other URLs... if anyone would like it, please /msg me your e-mail address
12:52:12 <Robert> I like things like that.
12:52:18 <gNoam> hehe
12:52:28 <Robert> You'll only spam me with teen porn! I know it! </paranoid>
12:53:15 <gNoam> i'm 43yo and not into spam of any type ;-)
12:54:26 <Robert> Everyone knows people between 40 and 45 are the worst perverts. And especially if they're Forth programmers.
12:54:46 <ianni> haha
12:54:58 <gNoam> i didn't say i wasn't perverted!
12:55:03 <Robert> Hehe.
12:55:12 <ianni> Robert: wow, you are quite young
12:55:22 <ianni> Robert: you make me feel even stupider :)
12:55:26 <ianni> j/k :)
12:55:29 <Robert> Heh.
12:55:38 <Robert> I'm the one who should feel stupid.
12:55:49 <ianni> I was born in 81..
12:55:57 <Robert> (Mostly because I am, compared to most people here :-)
12:56:00 <Robert> Oh.
12:56:02 <ianni> in '98 all I knew was vbscript
12:56:04 <Robert> Not THAT old then.
12:56:07 <ianni> :)
12:56:08 <Robert> Hehe.
12:56:09 <Robert> Poor you.
12:56:11 <ianni> and basic
12:56:18 <ianni> yaeh.
12:56:22 <ianni> and pascal I guess.
12:56:27 <Robert> Same here.
12:56:36 <Robert> I learnt BASIC and Pascal in '97.
12:56:38 <ianni> I didnt really start coding until I learned Java 2 years ago.
12:56:44 <gNoam> i've been using computers continuously since 1975, and a modem since 1982... wanna push my wheelchair, sonny?
12:56:47 <ianni> then I *really* learned coding, *really* lreaned C..
12:56:52 <Robert> gNoam: ;)
12:56:55 <ianni> :)
12:57:00 <ianni> but im here now. :)
12:57:09 <ianni> hoping to use forth one day
12:57:16 <ianni> really Use it
12:57:16 <Robert> ianni: :) Good boy.
12:57:55 <gNoam> "i dislike C (yuck), C++ (yuck++), and Java (yuckissimo)... i won't even mention C#" -me
12:58:45 <Robert> gNoam: Mmm... VB... MMMM... Java.
12:59:00 <Robert> Actually, I think C can be rather useful. So is assembly.
12:59:29 <Robert> Don't like Java (slow-slow-slow, big-big-big).
12:59:48 <gNoam> hello world shouldn't include #include crap ;-)
13:00:03 <Robert> #include <stdio.h>
13:00:17 <Robert> int main(void) { printd("Hello, world"\n"); return 0; }
13:00:28 <Robert> (And yes, that quote shouldn't be there)
13:00:34 <Robert> Not too long, imo.
13:00:37 <Robert> I've seen worse.
13:00:45 <Robert> (Assembly language for some systems)
13:01:43 <gNoam> ;msg tathi okay... sending now from gNoam@netZero.net ... hope you find it interesting
13:01:51 <Robert> ;)
13:02:17 <thin> i've never learned C, wee ;)
13:02:21 <thin> well that's not true
13:02:22 <thin> but i'm pure!
13:02:25 <thin> i'm clean!
13:02:26 <Robert> thin: Heh.
13:02:27 <thin> no C in my blood!
13:02:37 <Robert> C is quite useful in the world of Windows and UNIX.
13:02:51 <Robert> At least it's a good excuse not to learn C++.
13:02:53 <thin> yeah, but those are sucky oses, who would want to use em? :P
13:02:56 <gNoam> just like guns are quite useful in the world of crime and murder
13:03:00 <gNoam> just kidding
13:03:00 <Robert> thin: I do.
13:03:07 <Robert> gNoam: Heh :)
13:03:08 <thin> i know a little C and a litte more C++
13:03:29 <gNoam> "Unix/bsd/linux/*nix: bloatware based on 1970s technology" -- me ;-)
13:03:35 <Robert> Wee... Debian 2.2 installation on my 486 with 8MB of RAM is about the slowest I've ever seen.
13:03:41 <Robert> gNoam: Yeah, sure.
13:03:50 --- quit: ChanServ (benford.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
13:03:53 <Robert> gNoam: But they can still be quite useful.
13:04:46 <Robert> I'm getting into some electronics now.
13:04:58 <Robert> My dream projects is to build my own - non-bloated - computer.
13:05:05 <Robert> And of course write a little system for it.
13:05:13 <gNoam> i love hardware... there is something so "real" about it as opposed to software
13:05:19 <Robert> Sure.
13:05:35 <Robert> However, I'm not sure what to use for output :)
13:05:48 <Robert> Not sure how to interface a PC monitor.
13:06:06 <Robert> And... a matrix printer... nah.
13:08:38 <thin> you just need to interface the video card silly
13:09:00 <Robert> Video card? Heh.
13:09:09 <Robert> I don't want to get any video card! :)
13:09:55 <gNoam> you are in cowtown, thin?
13:13:01 <Herkamire> Robert: are you thinking it would fit in your pockets?
13:13:17 <thin> gnoam: yeah
13:13:32 <thin> moving to kamloops in jan
13:15:59 <gNoam> cool... very nice area
13:16:18 <gNoam> calgary is where theo de raadt of openbsd fame lives, right?
13:16:58 <thin> dunno
13:17:13 <thin> seems to me all the more famous people live in edmonton
13:17:18 <gNoam> http://www.theos.com/deraadt/
13:17:35 <gNoam> 812 23rd ave SE
13:17:36 <gNoam> Calgary, Alberta, Canada
13:17:36 <gNoam> T2G 1N8
13:18:42 --- join: TreyB (~trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth
13:18:42 <thin> very active guy
13:18:46 <thin> biking, caving
13:21:33 * Herkamire wonders if one could make a projection display with a laser and a tiny mirror glued to 3 piezos
13:24:11 <TreyB> I've thought about a similar technique.
13:24:31 <Herkamire> TreyB: think it could work? I don't know much about electronics
13:24:51 <TreyB> Your device would produce a vector (line drawing) display.
13:25:25 <Herkamire> yeah :) I want one of those
13:26:12 <TreyB> I'd considered more of a raster-type display.
13:27:01 <Herkamire> do you think it could go fast enough to do 768 scan lines?
13:27:37 <gNoam> don't some existing devices use sort of that same principle? would be a big pain to build oneself
13:27:50 <TreyB> I haven't bothered to do much of the math required, yet.
13:27:55 <gNoam> although in general i love DIY, homebrew
13:29:44 <Herkamire> tathi and I are about to get some PIC chips and stuff.
13:29:47 <tathi> I thought there were some existing projection TVs or summat that worked that way...
13:30:09 <gNoam> "Software is like a blowjob... hardware is like a good fuck" - me (disclaimer: not meant to be sexist or homophobic)
13:30:23 <TreyB> I'd imagined a high speed stepper motor spinning a six-sided mirror, with a pulsed laser.
13:30:47 <Herkamire> hehe :)
13:31:25 <Herkamire> that might work
13:31:43 <Herkamire> I was trying to not have stuff move much
13:32:11 <TreyB> Yeah, but motors work best spinning :-)
13:32:44 <TreyB> And stepper motor solutions have lots of existing examples.
13:33:39 <Herkamire> I was hoping to have a little mirror somewhere between 0.5 cm and 2ccm than would tilt a little in place because it is mounted on 3 or 4 piezos.
13:34:03 <gNoam> http://www.howstuffworks.com/projection-tv5.htm
13:34:30 <TreyB> I think that would take a lot more math than doing the spinning motor trick.
13:34:41 <TreyB> Meaning you'd need a faster CPU.
13:36:19 <tathi> gNoam: yeah, that's what I was thinking. Saw an article in Electronics Now or something when Philips (?) was first coming out with those
13:37:20 <TreyB> Texas Instruments makes them, I believe.
13:37:23 <gNoam> i think that devices at that levil of intricacy would be a pain to DIY
13:38:12 <TreyB> Sure.
13:38:58 <gNoam> i am taking apart my old microwave oven right now
13:39:18 <TreyB> Use Caution.  It has a very large capacitor in there.
13:39:19 <gNoam> RADIO ELECTRONICS had article about how to turn into cheap microwave transmitter ;-)
13:39:38 <gNoam> yes... has bleeder resistor in parallel, but better to discharge
13:39:42 <gNoam> think usually around 5kv
13:41:01 <Robert> Herkamire: Nah. A big matrix printer and a PC keyboard won't fit into my pocket :P
13:42:01 <Herkamire> Robert: yeah, the keyboard is the tough part. Targus makes some great folding keyboards though. The are just about as good as a Nice laptop keyboard, except with a few less keys
13:42:42 <Herkamire> gNoam: nice link, except that's not what I'm talking about. I mean one mirror that will aim a single beam around.
13:43:36 <gNoam> can one mirror achieve 2d scanning?  don't think that's how it's done usually, but i could be wrong
13:43:58 <Herkamire> gNoam: Here's the bit I don't understand about your link: how does the voltage on one side or the other cause the mirror to tilt?
13:44:21 <Herkamire> gNoam: it's not usual :) it's not a pixel-based display
13:44:43 <Herkamire> gNoam: it could outline things, or scribble in cursive :) :)
13:44:59 <Herkamire> if it was acurate and fast enough, I could probably get it to do scanlines like a crt.
13:45:32 <Herkamire> Maybe it would be better/easier to implement it with two mirrors. one to control the x axis, and one for the y axis
13:45:48 <gNoam> yes 2 = x + y is better (speed, accuracy)
13:45:56 <TreyB> My spinning mirror concept uses two.
13:46:35 <Herkamire> TreyB: oh :) two motors :) now I'm with you. that might be pretty easy to implement
13:47:23 <gNoam> what does your nick mean, Herkamire? sounds vaguely familiar? scifi?  too lazy to google ;-)
13:47:42 <TreyB> I know I could spin the mirrors fast enough, but I don't know about pulsing lasers that quickly.
13:48:58 <Herkamire> there's at least one town, and some dude in history (us army general or something) named Herkimer or something simular
13:49:15 <Herkamire> it doesn't mean anything. I found out about the army dude after I started using the nick
13:50:09 <Herkamire> TreyB: I bet you could pulse it fast enough. I'm more concerned about getting the motors  :)
13:51:40 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth
13:51:40 --- mode: benford.freenode.net set +o ChanServ
13:54:01 <gNoam> i have to go offline for a while... anyone else want a copy of my forth e-mail before i leave?  
13:54:07 <Robert> Hm.
13:54:18 <Robert> robost86@hotmail.com
13:54:27 <Robert> :)
13:54:35 <gNoam> thanks
13:56:03 <gNoam> cheers... thx for links, convo, info... will be back ... Tom in Vancouver aka gNoam@netZero.net
13:56:04 --- part: gNoam left #forth
14:21:26 --- quit: thin ()
14:35:37 <Robert> "Why were immediate words removed? The answer is pretty obvious, he found a better way to solve the same problems those things were there to solve, they were no longer needed and so were just in the way."
14:35:48 <Robert> Erm... Any idea what could be used instead of immediate words?
14:42:25 <TreyB> Robert: Do you mean in ColorForth?
14:46:42 <TreyB> If so, ColorForth essentially replaces immediate words with a "smart" or "pre-parsing" editor.  To extend the language like you'd do in ANS Forth, you'd extend the editor (and perhaps the compiler) in colorForth.
14:48:06 <Robert> Hmm.
14:48:38 <Robert> Actually, he was talking about cmForth, but I guess the ideas are quite similar
14:50:27 <TreyB> It makes a certain amount of sense if you think about it.  Move the time-consuming compiler work to the point where you have CPU cycles to burn: waiting for the user.
14:51:59 <Robert> Hm, yes.
14:52:11 <Robert> How does it work in practice?
14:52:30 <Robert> I mean... when/how does the editor the "immediate words"?
14:53:28 <TreyB> In colorForth, you use the color-changing keys.
14:53:54 <TreyB> Have you ever used a syntax highlighting text editor for C or C++?
14:54:30 <Robert> Yes.
14:54:57 <TreyB> Imagine how much faster your compiles would run if the editor could provide pre-tokenized source to the compiler.
14:55:22 <TreyB> It's already done most of the work.
14:55:33 <Robert> Why not simply compile it all?
14:55:42 <Robert> Every word as soon as it's edited.
14:55:48 <tathi> hmm, I had the impression that all the cmForth system vs. having immediates does is save a single IF at compile time
14:55:49 <TreyB> Welcome to colorForth.
14:56:02 <Robert> Hehe.
14:57:38 <TreyB> Well, colorForth almost does that.  It does just about everything but lay down code.
14:59:25 * TreyB needs to bail.
14:59:29 <TreyB> Y'all have a nice evening.
15:05:45 <tathi> hmmm...I'd have to disagree about colorforth "replacing" immediate words with a smart editor...but whatever...
15:06:36 <Robert> See you.
15:10:11 --- quit: tathi ("blah...")
15:17:40 --- quit: Herkamire ("leaving")
15:18:33 --- join: skylan (sjh@Rockcliffe92.tbaytel.net) joined #forth
15:55:30 --- quit: ChanServ (Shutting Down)
15:56:48 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth
15:56:48 --- mode: benford.freenode.net set +o ChanServ
15:56:48 --- mode: ChanServ set +l 83
16:17:07 --- quit: ChanServ (benford.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
16:36:11 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth
16:36:11 --- mode: benford.freenode.net set +o ChanServ
16:36:11 --- mode: ChanServ set +l 83
16:58:52 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
16:58:55 --- join: skylan (sjh@Rockcliffe82.tbaytel.net) joined #forth
17:22:23 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc2-login22.megatrondata.com) joined #forth
17:23:06 <Robert> Hi tcn :)
17:23:31 * Robert just read Jeff Fox' articles about Forth programming on his page.
17:23:37 <tcn> hey
17:42:52 --- quit: tcn (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:53:14 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
17:53:17 --- join: skylan (sjh@Riverview103.tbaytel.net) joined #forth
18:45:27 --- join: tathi (~josh@ip68-14-9-177.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth
19:06:22 --- quit: ChanServ (benford.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
19:07:18 --- quit: Robert (benford.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
19:07:18 --- quit: cyberclad (benford.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
19:07:26 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth
19:07:26 --- mode: benford.freenode.net set +o ChanServ
19:08:39 --- join: cyberclad (cyberclad@a203-35-226-205.webpub.net) joined #forth
19:08:39 --- join: Robert (~Robert@h236n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth
19:11:37 --- quit: ChanServ (benford.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
19:11:42 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth
19:11:42 --- mode: benford.freenode.net set +o ChanServ
19:29:02 --- quit: ChanServ (benford.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
19:29:13 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth
19:29:13 --- mode: benford.freenode.net set +o ChanServ
19:34:20 --- quit: ChanServ (benford.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
19:45:34 --- join: h2wo (~ababincho@P061198162136.ppp.prin.ne.jp) joined #forth
20:30:47 --- join: donxc (~donxc@1Cust165.tnt1.mobile.al.da.uu.net) joined #forth
20:33:37 --- part: donxc left #forth
20:42:17 --- join: ball (~ball@dialup-209.244.64.172.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) joined #forth
20:43:14 --- quit: tathi ("leaving")
20:44:20 --- part: ball left #forth
20:44:46 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth
20:44:46 --- mode: benford.freenode.net set +o ChanServ
20:44:46 --- mode: ChanServ set +l 83
21:09:46 --- quit: skylan ("Reconnecting")
21:10:49 --- join: skylan (sjh@Riverview102.tbaytel.net) joined #forth
21:25:52 --- quit: skylan (Remote closed the connection)
21:25:56 --- join: skylan (sjh@Riverview44.tbaytel.net) joined #forth
21:43:11 --- quit: h2wo (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.11.01