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09:33:51 <thin> howdy all
09:33:53 <thin> i440r
09:33:54 <thin> robert
09:33:56 <thin> check out
09:33:57 <thin> http://www.ultratechnology.com/structs.htm
09:38:30 <Robert> Heyhey
09:39:13 <Robert> I'll check it later :)
09:39:21 <thin> robert: it's high priority
09:39:34 <thin> :P
09:39:35 <Robert> Er...yes. Sure.
09:39:53 * Robert puts thin in a tiny little box and leaves.
09:40:52 <thin> hmm
09:41:13 <I440r> reading it :)
09:41:19 <thin> you been having brain problems lately, robert?
09:41:51 <I440r> The 1980 issue of Byte magazine focusing on Forth was the largest selling issue in its history
09:41:54 <I440r> i have that :)
09:43:11 <thin> the basic message of the article, is that, growing up in a C world, using C operating systems, and being familiar with C concepts, we may ultimately end up trying to use forth like C, we may try to transfer C concepts to forth, and if we do that, we screw up all the advatnages of forth
09:43:21 <thin> http://www.ultratechnology.com/essence.htm
09:43:25 <thin> also read that :P
09:43:28 <thin> fun fun 
09:45:47 <I440r> i like my dog shoots man story :)
09:45:58 <I440r> reported on cnn :)
09:50:04 <thin> yeah, that was yesterday
09:50:22 <thin> today, we have dolphin shoots man story
09:52:44 <I440r> thin i started to do some of that documentation for you :P
09:53:08 <I440r> when ive got it done ill send it all to you for proof reading and maybe some editing :)
09:54:36 <thin> ew
09:54:43 <thin> what exactly are you working on?
09:55:10 <thin> here's how it's split up
09:55:19 <thin> 1) documentation
09:55:21 <thin> 2) helpsystem
09:55:30 <thin> 1 is split up into several components
09:55:35 <thin> 1a) introduction
09:55:41 <thin> 1b) tutorial
09:55:47 <thin> 1c) manual
09:55:48 <I440r> ive not realy started 1
09:56:13 <thin> helpsystem and manual are somewhat related
09:56:25 <thin> manual will be a  copy of the helpsystem but with more info
09:56:57 <I440r> im besically doing a glossery of the words with small descriptions
09:57:24 <I440r> stating  the word name, the word type (variable, defered word, etc) weather or not the word is imediate
09:57:39 <I440r> and a 1 or 2 sentence descriton of the words funciton
09:57:43 <I440r> NOT in detail
09:57:54 <I440r> and lastly thers a "see also" section
09:58:18 <thin> hey, i'm emailing jeff fox
09:58:23 <thin> here's a section of my email
09:58:24 <thin> Are you a hypocrite?  Do you rant about people trying to code C in forth, when they have no EASILY ACCESSIBLE role model code & techniques to learn from?
09:58:30 <I440r> cool
09:58:44 <thin> heh, i'm going to light a fire under his ass ;P
09:58:49 <I440r> heh
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10:01:53 <thin> yeah sent dat email!
10:02:13 <thin> basically i ragged him about the lack of example code available online
10:02:47 <I440r> im going to be solving that problem too, but ive got some "bad example" code in there heh
10:03:31 <thin> yeah
10:04:06 <thin> actually i'm not very happy with your sockets.f code, but i can't really be constructive until i try to code up the sockets stuff myself
10:05:19 <I440r> whussthis ?
10:05:24 <thin> did you hit accept?
10:05:49 <thin> it's cleverdra's smudcl.f coded for isforth
10:05:52 <thin> it has sockets code
10:07:37 <thin> i440r: i uploaded it into /incoming on your ftp
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10:09:00 <I440r> ok :)
10:09:02 <I440r> what is it ?
10:09:05 <I440r> yes i accepted it
10:09:11 <I440r> smudcl ?
10:09:13 <I440r> whats that?
10:09:17 <I440r> me goes to look :)
10:10:21 <I440r> erm did you test this ?
10:10:31 <thin> no, it's not finished
10:10:36 <thin> : connect ;
10:10:41 <I440r> : socketcall 102 syscall ; is wrong
10:10:45 <I440r> you do
10:10:55 <I440r> erm hang on :)
10:10:57 <thin> i440r: hey, it's not my code 
10:10:59 <thin> but it's not wrong
10:11:02 <thin> jeez
10:11:11 <thin> i looked at your sockets.f
10:11:15 <thin> i looked at robert's socket code
10:11:31 <I440r> it is, "syscall" is a CREATING word and takes TWO parameters
10:11:32 <thin> i looked at linuxassembly.org :P
10:11:51 <thin> i440r: look at the code again
10:12:00 <I440r> 102 is the correct number for the socketcall  syscall, your just doing it wrong for isforth :)
10:12:04 <thin> vocabulary net
10:12:04 <thin> compiler definitions
10:12:04 <thin> : socketcall 102 syscall ;
10:12:04 <thin> net definitions
10:12:05 <thin> 3 1 socketcall <socket>
10:12:07 <thin> 3 3 socketcall <connect>
10:12:09 <thin> 4 9 socketcall <send>
10:12:11 <thin> 4 10 socketcall <recv>
10:12:28 <I440r> yes but thats WRONG :)
10:12:33 <thin> how so?
10:12:39 <thin> it's not as ugly as your code! :P
10:13:00 <I440r> its less optimum
10:13:42 <I440r> and its WRONG
10:13:47 <I440r> <socketcall> is the syscall
10:13:53 <I440r> <socket> should be socket
10:13:59 <I440r> its not a syscall
10:14:06 <I440r> same for <send> <recv> etc
10:14:41 <thin> ??
10:14:41 <I440r> also with MY code you pass exactly the same number of parameters to each socket function :)
10:15:02 <I440r> the recv needs one more (an unuzed ZERO) but i inject that at the recv word :)
10:15:07 <thin> explain yourself more clearly...
10:15:11 <I440r> you have to see my latest stuff, im not sure you got that:)
10:15:31 <I440r> ok.
10:15:40 <thin> : socket <socketcall> ;
10:15:43 <thin> thats what you mean
10:15:47 <I440r> my "convention" is to wrap SYSCALL word names in < and >
10:15:48 --- nick: ianill -> ianni
10:15:53 <thin> : socket 3 1 <socketcall> ;
10:15:58 <thin> yeah
10:15:59 <I440r> send recv etc are NOT syscalls, they USE the socketcall syscall
10:16:05 <thin> yeah
10:16:20 <I440r> no, that wont work either :)
10:16:23 <thin> well his comments say he's using socketcall like syscall and all the other stuff are syscalls :P
10:16:42 <thin> syscalls/socketcalls
10:17:00 <thin> what's wrong with : socket 3 1 <socketcall> ;
10:17:14 <I440r> ok watch
10:17:23 <I440r> 2 102 syscall <socketcall>   
10:17:30 <I440r> we now support the socketcall syscall
10:17:43 <thin> what's 2?
10:17:45 <I440r> that was done OUTSIDE a : definition (at compile time, not RUN time 
10:18:03 <I440r> : (sock) ( n1 n2 n3 request --- n4 )
10:18:20 <I440r>   >r sp@ r> <socketcall> nip nip nip ;
10:18:36 <thin> ewww
10:18:41 <thin> : (socket)
10:18:43 <I440r> looks ugly but ill explain
10:18:51 <thin> no, (sock) is lame that's all
10:19:00 <I440r> you pass 2 parameters to the socketcall
10:19:13 <I440r> the first parameter is the socketcall request (1 2 3... 9) etc
10:19:23 <thin> i rename (sock) to (socket) :P
10:19:24 <I440r> send,recv, etc etc
10:19:42 <I440r> the second parameter is always a POINTER to a buffer with THREE parameters in it
10:19:55 <I440r> except on the recv where thers 4 but the 4th is always a zero
10:20:17 <I440r> im using the stack to buffer that so i need to do an sp@ to get the address of the parameters :)
10:21:58 <I440r> so i move the request number to the parameter stack then POINT at the buffer of 3 items
10:22:15 <I440r> i then have to get rid of those 3 items  (the realy ugly part)
10:22:29 <I440r> but it works and it works well
10:22:39 <I440r> : sock 1 (sock) ;
10:23:00 <I440r> : connect 16 -rot 3 (sock) ;  <-- oopts this one has a 4th parameter too
10:23:10 <I440r> : send 9 (sock) ;
10:23:27 <I440r> i could do these as coded definitions as follows
10:23:30 <I440r> code send
10:23:36 <I440r>   call (sock)
10:23:38 <I440r>   dd 9
10:23:52 <I440r> which might be more efficitnt
10:24:15 <I440r> but wont work for those calls that take 4 parameters unfortunatly
10:24:19 <I440r> so scratch that idea :)
10:24:36 <I440r> : recv >r 0 -rot r> 10 (sock) nip ;
10:24:48 <I440r> i didnt code sendto or recvfrom
10:25:23 <I440r> yet
10:25:42 <thin> why call it (sock) when you can call it (socket)
10:25:51 <thin> and why call it sock when you can call it socket
10:25:53 <I440r> too lazy to type :)
10:25:57 <thin> : socket 1 (socket) ;
10:26:17 <I440r> all you realy need to care about with this is that ALL of the socketcall words take 3 parameters from you
10:26:29 <I440r> a size, a buffer and a socket fd
10:26:32 <thin> i think the verbosity is worth it, it can make a difference in whether the code is readable or not to a newbie
10:26:47 <thin> and to non-newbies
10:27:03 <Robert> Good evening.
10:27:08 <Robert> Hmm..
10:27:31 * Robert is thinking about taking a neat little 6kb kernel and write a Forth based on it.
10:28:34 <thin> robert: before you do any coding, read that ultratechnology structs.htm article :P
10:29:06 <Robert> Sure ;)
10:29:49 <I440r> thin think of my code as a libc sockets stuff replacement.  dont worry about the internals, just worry about the parameters you need to pass to each call :)
10:29:54 <I440r> and they are ALL identical :)
10:30:02 <I440r> thus far
10:30:15 <I440r> you only care about send, recv, socket, sendto, recvfrom etc
10:30:28 <I440r> ive simplified YOUR interface to each of those
10:31:20 <Robert> Good boy :)
10:31:45 <I440r> http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Midwest/10/25/offbeat.dog.shot.man.ap/index.html
10:31:49 <Robert> Now finish the DNS code, make a better editor and conquer the world.
10:32:51 <I440r> i will, im sort of slowly working on that :)
10:32:56 <Robert> Yay.
10:33:09 <I440r> ive almost got it done but ive got bigger worries atm.  like...
10:33:22 <thin> like dog shoots man!
10:33:31 <I440r> i was just served with notice that the mortgage company is going to SELL my house
10:33:35 <Robert> I'm bored++, so I thought I'd either code on IsForth or code my own Forth.. I'm thikning about doing the latter ;)
10:33:41 <I440r> which i have to put a stop to
10:33:45 <Robert> :-/
10:33:46 <thin> i440r: ouch
10:33:53 <thin> i440r: not current on your payments???
10:34:28 <I440r> not worked in over a year. my father is working tho and has been paying the mortgage but the mortgage company is saying we defaulted and is demanding payment in full NOW
10:34:47 <thin> i440r: what editor do you use to code your forth code?
10:34:59 <I440r> joe
10:35:02 <thin> i440r: weird
10:35:07 <thin> i440r: about the mortgage company
10:36:18 <thin> they shouldn't be able to do that
10:36:22 <thin> the payments are getting paid
10:36:25 <thin> that's all that matters
10:36:38 <I440r> we are still behind on payments tho
10:37:25 <thin> then catch up
10:37:52 <thin> sell isforth to multinational corporations for millions!
10:38:09 <Robert> Hehe.
10:38:19 <Robert> Sell thin as a sex slave to korea.
10:38:20 <I440r> good idea
10:38:25 <I440r> better idea!
10:38:33 <I440r> i would get more for thin :P
10:38:37 <Robert> ;)
10:38:50 <thin> yeah! you'll get millions of rubles for me!
10:39:04 <thin> 1 buck = millions of rubles
10:39:39 <I440r> :)
10:40:14 <thin> gtg
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11:24:27 <Robert>     53   dd %%link                  ;cfa -4 points to nfa (yuck)
11:24:32 <Robert> Erm.. what's NFA?
11:25:53 <I440r> name field address
11:26:48 <I440r> its a wast of 4 bytes for every non headerless word but it simplified some things alot
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15:15:52 --- log: started forth/02.10.31
15:15:52 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth
15:15:52 --- topic: 'This channel is a support group to help futhin code ;) | x86 Linux Forth coded in asm - http://isforth.clss.net | home of forth - http://www.ultratechnology.com/forth.htm'
15:15:52 --- topic: set by thin on [Tue Oct 29 10:50:37 2002]
15:15:52 --- names: list (clog onetom Herkamire Fractal jammi @ChanServ Robert Soap` I440r skylan cyberclad ianni)
15:16:44 <Herkamire> wb clog ;)
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15:45:59 <bugslayer> did clog miss anything
15:46:08 <bugslayer> prolly not
15:46:10 <bugslayer> :P
15:48:26 <Robert> Hi there.
15:48:29 <Robert> Not much ;)
15:48:55 <I440r> i was working in the lab, late one night
15:49:03 <I440r> when my eyes beheld an eerie sight
15:49:13 <I440r> when my monster from its slab began to rise
15:49:16 * Robert hears bird singing.
15:49:16 <bugslayer> dog shoots man!
15:49:21 <I440r> and suddenly, to my supprise...
15:49:25 <I440r>    it did the mash...
15:49:30 <I440r>    it did the monster mash
15:49:33 <I440r> heh
15:49:49 <I440r> yea dog shoots man :)
15:49:51 <Robert> Neat song ;)
15:50:02 <Robert> It's November here!
15:50:07 <Robert> Happy new month ;)
15:50:11 <I440r> i downloaded it so i could play it to all the kiddies :)
15:50:15 <Robert> Hah
15:50:21 <I440r> its not november here yet
15:50:56 <bugslayer> robert: you're up past midnight? and you didn't go trick or treating?  go to bed!
15:50:57 <bugslayer> :P
15:52:39 <Robert> Heh.
15:52:42 <Robert> I'm not THAT small.
15:52:49 <Robert> Besides, we do that on easter in Sweden.
15:52:51 <Robert> Not halloween.
15:53:00 <bugslayer> it should be mandatory, you must go trick or treating until 18 years old or something ;)
15:53:29 <Robert> We don't even do that.
15:53:39 <bugslayer> i440r: jeff fox's response was pretty cool and i typed up a huge email back to him :))
15:53:43 <Robert> Little girls dress like witches on easter and ask for candy.
15:53:45 <Robert> That's it.
15:53:55 <bugslayer> on easter ???
15:53:59 <Robert> Yup.
15:54:03 <bugslayer> easter is for the bunny!
15:54:07 <Robert> Nah.
15:54:10 <Robert> No bunnies here.
15:54:11 <bugslayer> and teh chocolates hiddeen around the house!
15:54:13 <Robert> Just witches.
15:54:17 <bugslayer> omg!!!
15:54:24 <Robert> :)
15:54:25 <bugslayer> who wants to live in sweden ;)
15:54:35 <Robert> THE CIVILIZED PEOPLE.
15:54:36 <Robert> :(
15:54:39 <Robert> Er
15:54:39 <Robert> :)
15:54:45 <bugslayer> top three countries:  1) norway  2) sweden 3) canada
15:55:00 <bugslayer> but clearly canada is the best cause we have easter and halloween
15:55:13 <bugslayer> that list of three countries is from the alamanac
15:55:25 <I440r> therse only 2 things i dont like
15:55:33 <Robert> Heh.
15:55:34 <I440r> 1: people who hate people from other countries
15:55:37 <I440r> 2: the dutch
15:55:38 <I440r> :P
15:55:40 <Robert> :D
15:55:57 * Robert learns Dutch on IRC. ;)
15:56:40 <Robert> This is so funny, I talked to a pakistani who now lives in Belgium, who said all people from eastern europe are lazy bastards... Not a good thing to say, being an immmigrant yourself.
15:56:58 <I440r> :)
15:57:17 <bugslayer> all people from british columbia are screwed up in the head and practice occult or just generally behave like pscyhos!
15:57:34 <bugslayer> i lived in bc for three years :(
15:57:54 <I440r> thats explains it :)
15:58:09 <bugslayer> http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0778562.html
15:58:22 <bugslayer> gives you a list of the most "livable" countries
15:58:26 <bugslayer> and the least
15:58:35 <Robert> I recently discovered the difference between www.freeos.org and www.free-os.com
15:58:41 <bugslayer> but the HDI is fucked in the head anyways
15:58:43 <bugslayer> for example
15:58:51 <Robert> Or maybe it was free-os.org and freeos.com
15:58:51 <bugslayer> if you don't have a t.v you rate lower
15:59:03 <bugslayer> robert: yeah i've been to those sites
15:59:31 <bugslayer> ew
15:59:35 <bugslayer> i haven't been to freeos.org
15:59:37 <Robert> Stupid people putting porn sites at the wrong URLs.
15:59:42 <Robert> Hehe.
15:59:44 <Robert> See whta I mean?
15:59:55 <bugslayer> useless site
16:00:03 <Robert> Which?
16:00:12 <bugslayer> loll
16:00:17 <bugslayer> free-os is the porn one
16:00:25 <bugslayer> freeos is the useless one with no links
16:00:32 <bugslayer> i'm in a lab!
16:00:35 <bugslayer> people all around me!
16:00:40 <bugslayer> looking at the pr0n!
16:00:41 <Robert> The .com page is for free systems, and .org for porn.. Bleh.
16:00:42 <bugslayer> on my screen!
16:00:45 <bugslayer> la la la
16:00:47 <Robert> :D
16:00:47 <bugslayer> no
16:00:54 <bugslayer> freeos.org and free-os.org
16:01:05 <Robert> Uh.
16:01:10 <Robert> The OS page also has .com then
16:01:13 <bugslayer> freeos.com also exists
16:01:23 <bugslayer> freeos.com is much more useful
16:01:38 <bugslayer> actually its crap
16:01:41 <bugslayer> linux is crap
16:01:43 <bugslayer> all oses are crap
16:01:55 <bugslayer> whassup i440r
16:02:07 <bugslayer> are we gonna code or are we gonna code?!
16:02:10 <bugslayer> :DDDDD
16:02:13 <Robert> That's why I'm writing this new Forth system ;)
16:02:32 <bugslayer> make it metacompilable
16:02:39 <bugslayer> but first
16:02:52 <bugslayer> http://www.ultratechnology.com/structs.htm
16:04:05 <bugslayer> robert: did you know there are many web comics online?  and they are fabulously funny and entertaining?  read them all before you code!
16:04:06 <I440r> i think i got hit by a virus on win 98 on this machine and on my laptop. i had to totally reinstall the win 98 partition of my laptop
16:04:11 <bugslayer> a real coder does that ;)
16:04:13 <I440r> im doing teh windows update thing there now
16:04:21 <bugslayer> i440r: i got my first virus a month a go
16:04:27 <bugslayer> it was some vb virus
16:04:31 <bugslayer> it renamed files
16:04:37 <I440r> lol
16:04:37 <bugslayer> and moved them around
16:04:43 <bugslayer> so i reinstalled windows
16:04:47 <bugslayer> cause i'm too lazy to install virus scanner
16:04:57 <bugslayer> and because virus scanners feel dirty to me
16:05:32 <Robert> Don't use Windows, heh.
16:05:55 <bugslayer> what? and use a forth os with no irc client ???
16:06:02 <Robert> I'm listening to Pink Floyd and some moron in #forth ranting about web comics and VB viruses. :P
16:06:13 <I440r> :)
16:06:23 <bugslayer> first i need a forth os with a) irc client  b) image viewer c) basic web browser
16:06:26 <Robert> bugslayer: I'll construct an IR link, and write an IRC client.
16:06:51 <bugslayer> what do you need the infrared link for? what are you writing the system on?
16:07:05 <Robert> Just kidding, actually.
16:07:11 <Robert> I'm basing the Forth on DOS.
16:07:20 <bugslayer> my hp48g calc has an IR link!
16:07:27 <Robert> Linux is a bit too big for most of my computers ;)
16:07:29 <Robert> Hehe.
16:07:30 <bugslayer> and there are programs that let it act as a universal remote
16:07:45 <bugslayer> so i can control the tv and crap if i wanted to
16:07:48 <Robert> Yup... I have a doc describing the protocol used.
16:07:58 <Robert> Make it flood the TV :)
16:08:02 <bugslayer> i'm waiting for chuck moore to make the jpeg vierwer for colorforth! :D
16:08:06 <Robert> Heh.
16:08:13 <Robert> Write it yourself ;)
16:08:22 <bugslayer> bahhh
16:08:27 <bugslayer> what part of lazy don't you understand
16:08:29 <bugslayer> hmm
16:08:39 <bugslayer> i am working on stuff right now too
16:09:16 <bugslayer> die lazy!
16:10:25 <Robert> Die young and die lazy.
16:12:04 <bugslayer> robert: do you play any games?
16:12:44 <Robert> Duke Nukem 3D
16:13:11 <bugslayer> is it multiplayer
16:13:21 <Robert> Yes.
16:14:03 <bugslayer> how many hours do you play it per day?
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16:14:45 <Robert> bugslayer: One or two ;)
16:14:51 <Robert> But that's just this week.
16:14:59 <Robert> Usually I play games maybe one or two hours per month.
16:15:05 <bugslayer> heh
16:15:12 <bugslayer> freak! :P
16:15:20 <bugslayer> well i'm kidding
16:15:24 <bugslayer> i'm a freak too
16:15:29 <bugslayer> i hate most games
16:15:42 <bugslayer> because they suck
16:15:51 <Robert> Good reason to hate them.
16:16:42 <I440r> the settlers ROCKS
16:17:22 <bugslayer> yeah, i'm waiting for you to code it up with a better interface (i.e. one that isn't so ugly and hard to figure out)
16:17:48 <bugslayer> i play the waiting game!
16:17:49 <bugslayer> i'll win!
16:17:59 <bugslayer> waiting for jeff fox's email
16:28:06 <bugslayer> hm
16:28:07 <bugslayer> hum
16:28:10 <bugslayer> fe fi fum
16:28:24 <bugslayer> jeff fox and chuck moore THINK a lot
16:28:33 <bugslayer> and for months and months!
16:28:42 <bugslayer> about forth issues
16:28:54 <bugslayer> quite intersting
16:29:17 <Robert> Heh,.
16:29:27 <Robert> If you see thinking as something exotic and odd...
16:29:31 * Robert gets scared.
16:30:42 <bugslayer> um
16:30:45 <bugslayer> no, i mean
16:30:49 <bugslayer> they are very deep thinkers
16:30:52 <Robert> ;)
16:31:11 <bugslayer> and it's hard not to respect people who think carefully and with great depth
16:31:22 <Robert> What's your Forth called, bugslayer ?
16:31:49 <bugslayer> what are you talking about?
16:32:51 <Robert> If you haven't written a Forth yet, go on and do it :) Don't just let Chuck and Jeff invent everything :P
16:33:30 <bugslayer> you misunderstand me
16:33:50 <bugslayer> they think a lot about forth issues such as ANS forth vs forth.. , about people using forth, etc
16:33:56 <bugslayer> i'm reading ultratechnology.com right now
16:35:34 <Robert> Sure.
16:35:41 <Robert> But you could be a Thinker, too ;)
16:35:54 <Robert> Just write your own Forth with smart comments about ANS.
16:36:08 <bugslayer> uh
16:36:27 <bugslayer> when is coding your own forth a requirement to be a thinker? heh
16:36:31 <bugslayer> i am a thinker
16:36:41 <bugslayer> but am i a doer?
16:36:50 <bugslayer> i'm a thinker and i make things happen
16:36:53 <bugslayer> but am i a doer?
16:37:24 <bugslayer> very few people are thinkers, and very few people make things happen, so it's not like i'm a walking failure
16:37:39 <bugslayer> but i could definitely improve myself by becoming a doer :P
16:37:41 <Robert> You're a sitting failure :P
16:37:54 <bugslayer> and it's about time too, what with all my ideas and crap
16:38:00 <bugslayer> time to execute em
16:38:03 <Robert> Actually, writing a simple forth doesn't take long.
16:38:23 <Robert> I wrote a simple one in 100% Forth in a day or two.
16:38:34 <Robert> Of course it's useless, but funny ;)
16:39:39 <bugslayer> why is it funny
16:39:44 <bugslayer> just it talk funny?
16:39:47 <bugslayer> does it walk funny?
16:39:51 <bugslayer> does it look funny?
16:40:04 <bugslayer> can it crack jokes?
16:40:31 <Robert> 01:43 < ctkrohn> At Stanford, they had an entire section of their bookstore devoted to obscure programming languages.
16:40:35 <Robert> 01:43 < ctkrohn> Forth was among them
16:40:37 <Robert> Haha!
16:41:01 <bugslayer> ...
16:41:25 <bugslayer> is that a negative thing or a good thing?
16:41:43 <Robert> Negative.
16:41:48 <Robert> It should have its own section ;)
16:41:49 <bugslayer> lies
16:42:32 <bugslayer> it's true that forth is obscure
16:43:59 <bugslayer> not a negative thing tho, just a fact
16:44:18 <bugslayer> gotta go
16:44:21 <Robert> Bye
16:44:22 <bugslayer> bbl, 3 hours
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17:17:12 <onetom> hi
17:17:50 <XeF4> hi
17:17:58 <Robert> Hi onetom, XeF4 
17:18:25 <XeF4> I have run out of money and for some bizarre reason I came here instead of fetching more
17:18:40 <XeF4> I mean.. there is no good reason I shouldn't be boozing right now besides.. hm
17:19:15 <XeF4> perrrrrkele
17:19:39 <XeF4> miksihan suomen alkoholiverot ovat niin korkeita?!!
17:19:46 <XeF4> miksihän
17:21:18 <Robert> Hm?
17:21:28 <Robert> Take that in Swedish ;)
17:21:50 <XeF4> you see.. I was walking from one place to another bar with some woman, we parted company and somehow I ended up here
17:21:56 * XeF4 puzzled over his actions
17:22:13 <Robert> You came to your _real_ family.
17:22:15 <Robert> How sweet.
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17:53:18 <I440r> tcn :)
18:01:00 <tcn> hewy
18:04:44 --- join: I440r_ (~mark4@sdn-ap-008tnnashP0140.dialsprint.net) joined #forth
18:05:23 <tcn> oh, you got dropped?
18:05:47 <I440r_> yes
18:05:52 <I440r_> did you see my message to you ?
18:05:56 <tcn> yeah
18:05:58 <tcn> <tcn> i think ML does that
18:05:59 <tcn> <tcn> couldn't you typ ,y,=foo(blah) to ignore x and z?
18:05:59 <tcn> <tcn> except usually you end up with pointers, say struct vector {double x,y,z;} v1,v2,*u; u=cross(v1,v2);
18:06:21 <I440r_> :)
18:06:36 <I440r_> recon it would be worth implementing ??? :)
18:06:43 <tcn> i've seen some real ML programs and it's godawful
18:07:24 <tcn> fewer lines of code than any other language for any given program, but those lines are long & cryptic :)
18:08:36 <tcn> have you ever seen multiple returns in a mathematical function?
18:10:57 <tcn> i've seen vector, matrix, complex functions but they still return one value
18:11:00 <I440r_> nope :)
18:11:12 <I440r_> but this is not maths :P
18:11:41 <tcn> it seems like there's a rule "a function returns only one value" for a very good reason
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18:13:10 <tcn> hey bugslayer
18:13:24 <I440r_> lol
18:13:36 <I440r_> forth words OFTEN return more than one :P
18:13:43 <I440r_> without it making things over complex too
18:14:24 <tcn> well it wouldn't be so confusing if they only returned 1 value.. if they return multiple values it really should be a type, like "string" for address & length
18:14:26 <bugslayer> heya
18:15:21 <tcn> but that's C & co.
18:15:34 <tcn> derived from centuries of refinement
18:15:49 <bugslayer> i440r: as long as the forth word doesn't return more tahn 2 parameters
18:15:56 <bugslayer> otherwise, i'd say you are lying!!!
18:16:00 <bugslayer> "often"
18:16:59 <tcn> if it returns more than 2 you'd probably be better off using variables
18:17:18 <bugslayer> well there's always the return stack
18:17:36 <tcn> but those are local
18:17:57 <bugslayer> local what
18:18:03 <bugslayer> local variable?
18:18:14 <tcn> yeah.. nevermind
18:18:24 <bugslayer> i consider up to 3 parameters fine..  but 2 or less is much better
18:18:29 <bugslayer> yeah nevermind :P
18:18:33 <bugslayer> so whats up tcn?
18:18:33 --- quit: I440r (Connection timed out)
18:19:00 <bugslayer> what's ML? matlab? m-something lisp? machine language?
18:19:02 <tcn> not much. should I remember you?
18:19:26 <bugslayer> i am the stealthy panda!
18:20:36 <tcn> i think ML stands for meta-language.. kind of an obscure comp sci students' language.. sorta like a cross between c and lisp
18:20:56 <bugslayer> ugh
18:21:02 <bugslayer> how dare they steal "meta-language"
18:21:11 <bugslayer> that could easiy be a verb
18:21:11 <tcn> it's so generic
18:21:15 <bugslayer> or non-noun
18:21:24 <bugslayer> non-name anywyas
18:21:41 <tcn> OCAML isn't so bad.. that's a variant of ML
18:21:57 <tcn> as a language it's about the same though :)
18:22:10 <bugslayer> OCAML isn't lisp?
18:22:25 <tcn> doesn't look like lisp
18:23:28 <tcn> heh, i looked at that "most livable countries" thing
18:24:42 <bugslayer> heh
18:25:21 <bugslayer> the HDI is fucked in the head anyways, so i really wouldn't treat that list as 100% accurate.. more of a rough guess list
18:25:40 <tcn> if you have running water and electricity and cars that's "livable"
18:25:50 <tcn> even if you have to work a shit job to pay for it
18:25:54 <bugslayer> yeah, but they include t.v. in there as a necessity or something ;)
18:26:05 <bugslayer> i can't remember under what condition the t.v. thing is in
18:26:10 <tcn> and if you get paid to sit on your ass all day that's "livable"
18:26:18 <bugslayer> but it's like, if you don't have a t.v you are living in worse than standard living conditions
18:26:29 <tathi> what's a t.v.?
18:26:36 <tcn> shh
18:26:38 <tcn> don't tell him
18:26:53 <tcn> allright allright
18:26:56 <tcn> it's a tetanus vaccine
18:27:01 <tathi> hmm...
18:27:16 <tathi> doesn't sound like as much fun as a computer ;)
18:27:38 <tcn> i mean, how many people REALLY die of tetanus? it's not that important to have a t.v. :)
18:27:56 <bugslayer> heh
18:28:20 <bugslayer> television, you know, the thingie you hook up the commodore 64 to
18:28:30 <bugslayer> to play space invaders!
18:28:32 <tcn> hahahh
18:29:10 <tathi> ohhh, _that_! gotcha
18:29:58 <tcn> yeah, it's just like a monitor but it's got a coax input :)
18:30:20 <tathi> and really lousy resolution
18:30:39 <tcn> unless you have HDTV
18:31:07 <tcn> pretty soon you'll be considered "unprivileged" if you only have a regular old TV
18:31:29 <tathi> bah
18:31:45 <bugslayer> bah to TVs!
18:31:51 <bugslayer> TW always!
18:31:53 <tcn> bah humbug
18:31:59 <bugslayer> bah scrooge
18:32:07 <tathi> if I want high resolution I'll just buy apple's biggest flatpanel and a DVD player
18:32:10 <tathi> :)
18:33:09 <bugslayer> how big?
18:33:13 <bugslayer> and why apple's?
18:33:31 <tcn> oh you liven in BC? where'd you move from?
18:34:36 <bugslayer> calgary
18:34:47 <bugslayer> this is thin, aka futhin
18:35:01 <bugslayer> i moved back to calgary for the last 3 years
18:35:09 <bugslayer> then i'm moving back to kamloops this winter
18:35:10 <tcn> oh!
18:35:11 <bugslayer> wee
18:35:13 <tathi> bugslayer: they're 22" viewable, I think, and absolutely gorgeous.
18:35:18 --- nick: bugslayer -> thin
18:35:25 <tcn> what do they cost?
18:35:27 <thin> tathi: how much
18:35:39 <thin> yeah, the price for flatpanels goes up sharply once you go above 15"
18:36:34 <tathi> $4000 US originally, might be down to 3 now...
18:37:05 <tcn> heh.. forget it
18:37:07 <thin> i want to set up a super desktop computer arrangement..  6 or 8 monitors on the desk, with computers for most of them, and some dual setups
18:37:18 <tathi> :)
18:37:26 <thin> and a tv of course!
18:37:31 <thin> and then i can daytrade and code!
18:37:37 <thin> ;)
18:37:42 <tcn> you wouldn't get nothin done
18:37:52 <tcn> well you don't anyways
18:38:00 <thin> i'd get more done
18:38:23 <tathi> tcn: heh, I was just going to say that
18:38:27 <thin> more computers forces you to tinker more
18:38:47 <thin> even though i would classify that as "busywork"
18:40:24 <tcn> I might get one of those mini-itx boards.. use a TV as monitor :)
18:40:46 <thin> the res is really crappy tho
18:40:55 <thin> unless it's a really big t.v at a distance..
18:43:28 <thin> somebody tell me what HEADERS> and <HEADERS does
18:43:47 <thin> its not putting anything on the stack 
18:43:57 <thin> so it appears to be different from >HEAD and HEAD>
18:44:57 <thin> nevermind
18:47:53 <tathi> hmm...I think this forth engine has gotten as small as it's going to get...
18:48:47 <thin> what is it coded in
18:49:07 <tathi> PPC assembly language
18:49:43 <tathi> I'm refactoring it again so I can experiment with different source encodings
18:50:02 <tathi> and it looks like it's going to be almost exactly the same size as it was before
18:50:27 <tathi> the only way it can go from here is up! :)
18:51:06 <thin> have you tried talking to crowkiller? ;)
18:51:33 <tathi> yeah
18:51:38 <thin> for making it insanely small? ;)
18:51:40 <tathi> I don't have it so easy
18:52:05 * thin had to go thru the clog logs to remember his name
18:52:38 <tathi> PPC has fixed length instructions (32-bit)
18:53:12 <tcn> how big is it now?
18:53:14 <tathi> my ELF is down to (stripped) about 2K, of which I think around 400 bytes is headers etc.
18:53:35 <tcn> not bad for a RISC
18:53:39 <tathi> so that puts me at what, around 400 instructions somewhere?
18:54:16 <tathi> yeah. colorforth is great for simplicity :)
18:55:16 <thin> how many times have you coded your colorforth?
18:55:18 <tathi> then I'm getting up around 10-15K of forth source on top of that...it's almost useful! :)
18:55:30 <thin> third major refactor does the trick ;)
18:55:49 <tathi> hmm...think this is 5
18:55:56 <tathi> but it was fine last time
18:56:22 <tathi> I just want to experiment with different ways of encoding the sources
18:57:55 <thin> well when i say "major" i mean MAJOR! :P
19:00:20 <thin> omg, check this out for some of the WORST forth code i've ever seen
19:00:21 <thin> http://www.ec3.com/Upperized/FORTH.HTM
19:00:37 <thin> it's sad because its so long and the guy spent so much effort on it
19:01:03 <thin> actually
19:01:12 <thin> i'm talking more about the comments
19:01:15 <I440r_> back 
19:01:27 <thin> he shouldn't need those comments, therefore his code is really lame and poorly factored
19:01:30 <I440r_> sorry had to take doggies to the doggiesitters :)
19:01:30 <thin> hey i440r_
19:03:26 <thin> i440r_ in the smudcl.f why are there the additional numbers..   : send 4 9 (socket) ;
19:03:29 <tathi> hmm, yeah, I'd have to say having a comment for the state of the stack after every word is a bit excessive :)
19:04:23 <I440r_> erm let me look
19:05:43 <I440r_> the 4 and the 9 are the parameters to the socketcall word that creates the <blah-whatever> word
19:05:56 <I440r_> the 9 is the request type
19:06:01 <I440r_> 9 being send
19:06:06 <I440r_> 10 being recieev
19:06:16 <I440r_> and the 4 is the number of parameters required by the send
19:06:24 <I440r_> you couldnt figure that out ?
19:06:26 <I440r_> lol
19:07:13 <I440r_> that socketcall word WILL NOT work
19:07:16 <thin> hm, didn't notice that, not exactly looking closely
19:07:46 <I440r_> socketcall recieves two parameters
19:07:50 <I440r_> it does NOTHING with them
19:07:52 <thin> yeah yeah yeah
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19:08:00 <thin> hello sulvey
19:08:04 <I440r_> it merely puts another parameter on the stack and calls "syscall"
19:08:07 <Sulvey> hello thin, everyone
19:08:13 <I440r_> so the call to syscall has three parameters passed to it here
19:08:14 <thin> first time here? :)
19:08:16 <I440r_> and IT uses only 2
19:08:35 <Sulvey> i visited once or a twice a long time ago
19:08:46 <I440r_> so every time you invoke teh socketcall creating word your going to be leaving one item on the stack
19:09:26 <I440r_> i told you earlier that the code woruldnt work the way you have it but you wouldnt listen :P
19:09:34 <thin> heh
19:09:44 <thin> sulvey: under a different nick?
19:10:05 <Sulvey> I don't recall actually :)
19:12:46 <Sulvey> was anyone else as surprised as me to see the book review on /.?
19:12:59 <I440r_> i diont read /. heh
19:13:05 <I440r_> what was the review about ?
19:13:19 <Sulvey> Forth Application Techniques
19:13:21 <thin> i440r: what is the socketaddr_in struct passing to connect?  is it passing 3 hidden parameters?
19:13:39 <I440r_> its a sockaddr_in structure :P
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19:14:35 <I440r_> you pass it teh IP you want to connect to
19:14:46 <I440r_> the socket family type you want
19:14:51 <I440r_> and the PORT you want to conect to
19:15:06 <I440r_> MY code makes that very easy to do :P
19:15:31 <thin> i said what is the _structure_ passing
19:16:01 <I440r_> the structure isnt passing anything
19:16:09 <I440r_> you just pass a pointer TO the structure
19:16:37 <thin> and that's what connect wants? 
19:16:40 <thin> :(
19:16:46 <thin> :P
19:17:11 <I440r_> yes. that and the fd
19:18:54 --- quit: Sulvey ("goodnight")
19:20:28 <thin> so that's another thing that is wrong about the smudcl
19:22:16 <I440r_> heh
19:22:25 <I440r_> just port it to using my sockets library :P
19:30:19 <Herkamire> thin: the structure is: 2 bytes: sin_family (2). 2 bytes: port number (in big endian), 4 bytes: ip address. zero bytes (8 of them I believe)
19:31:53 <Herkamire> when the stupid C headers are too much trouble to find a definition in (it took me an hour to find the definition of sockaddr_in in the C headers even with grep -r) try making a local variable of that type, and use the debugger to print the thing out.
19:32:30 <I440r_> herk i reverse engineered a small c program i wrote using each of teh socket functions using IDA Pro
19:32:50 <tathi> or you could try something really tricky like 'man ip' :)
19:36:29 <Herkamire> I440r_: what's ida?
19:37:04 <I440r_> interactive disassembler
19:37:14 <I440r_> costs about $490 :)
19:37:21 <Herkamire> screw that :)
19:37:22 <I440r_> and worth EVERY penny
19:37:30 <Herkamire> I'll stick to documentation and header files
19:39:02 <I440r_> :)
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20:01:47 --- quit: I440r_ ("Reality Strikes Again!")
21:07:29 <Herkamire> awesome! I found two new web browsers that are good! w3m seems to be better than lynx (once I got it compiled with lynx keybindings, and got it to stop displaying images).
21:09:08 <Herkamire> and skipstone displays with the mozilla engine, and is WAY faster. (like it starts up in about 1 seccond instead of 5.)
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