00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.10.30 00:06:18 --- join: thin (thin@h68-146-166-145.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 01:02:29 --- quit: Klaw (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 01:02:31 --- join: Klaw` (~chuck@ip68-4-243-214.oc.oc.cox.net) joined #forth 01:02:31 --- mode: ChanServ set +b Klaw`!*@* 01:02:31 --- kick: Klaw` was kicked by ChanServ (Stop*joining/quitting!) 01:04:46 --- part: thin left #forth 01:05:04 --- join: thin (thin@h68-146-166-145.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 01:06:29 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:09:31 --- mode: ChanServ set +o thin 01:09:35 --- mode: thin set -b Klaw`!*@* 01:09:44 --- mode: thin set -o thin 01:10:14 --- join: Klaw` (~chuck@ip68-4-243-214.oc.oc.cox.net) joined #forth 01:10:17 i think u got it 01:10:20 :P 01:10:45 have you been banned for a long time? :( 01:14:20 hello thin 01:14:30 hows life? 01:14:48 not bad 01:16:29 well i gotta go to bed 01:16:31 i'm being a bad boy 01:16:38 --- quit: thin ("sleep") 03:38:55 --- quit: Klaw` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:52:22 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 05:54:52 small crowd 05:55:18 :) 05:59:15 --- join: tathi (~josh@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 06:08:09 Hi tathi. 06:25:07 hey Robert 07:23:13 --- join: I440r (~mark4@sdn-ap-010tnnashP0290.dialsprint.net) joined #forth 07:23:33 Hey :) 07:23:56 hi 07:24:12 messed up my windows boot yesterday, straightening it all out now :) 07:24:16 didnt lose anything except TIME 07:24:46 if you're using windows you're losing time anyway :) 07:25:06 I use Windows only to lose time. 07:25:09 (Games ;) 07:25:57 :) 07:53:07 --- join: Forth (~Forth@sdn-ap-010tnnashP0290.dialsprint.net) joined #forth 07:56:39 --- join: cyberclad (cyberclad@a203-35-226-205.webpub.net) joined #forth 07:58:06 Hi, Forth & cyberclad. 08:04:39 --- join: I440r_ (~mark4@sdn-ap-010tnnashP0290.dialsprint.net) joined #forth 08:05:25 --- quit: I440r (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: I440r_!~mark4@sdn-ap-010tnnashP0290.dialsprint.net))) 08:05:38 --- nick: I440r_ -> I440r 08:15:09 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Forth 08:15:14 :) 08:15:33 realy gotta make that dumb bot actually serve a useful purpose some day 08:38:25 --- join: thin (thin@h68-146-166-145.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 08:38:35 sup i440r 08:39:47 :) 08:39:50 whussup 08:40:02 isforth might be buggy 08:40:22 you know how the bot code lets you hit x to quit? 08:40:31 well it doesn't let me quit 08:40:37 i tried x and space and all that 08:40:47 and then for my telnet code 08:41:51 i know 08:41:52 i tried "key? 0= ?exit key telnet-key" where telnet-key just puts it in the buffer and sends it off right away.. and also tried "tib #tib @ telnet-write" 08:41:53 thats not isforth 08:41:55 its the bot 08:42:11 the bot is BLOCKING on a read from the socket 08:42:13 waiting for data 08:42:17 yeah 08:42:25 only after its read teh data and processed it does it check for a key 08:42:30 press X in the console 08:42:32 then ping the bot :P 08:42:39 heh 08:43:10 eventually the bot will POLL the fd instead of blocking on it 08:43:57 well i've got some telnet code, gotta streamline it and crap 08:44:04 Hey thin 08:44:13 sup robert 08:44:24 Hmm... what's a good and relativley small DOS Forth? 08:44:30 pygmy ? 08:44:44 fpc :) 08:44:44 Or a Forth with its own OS... 08:44:51 don't touch fpc! 08:44:52 :P 08:44:58 it'll ruin you like it ruined i440r ;P 08:45:03 Heh. 08:45:04 fpc isnt too bad after you strip out all the bloat 08:45:31 How about Forths with their own system? Any good ones there? 08:45:43 robert: eforth is a small dos forth that can also be installed as os i think 08:47:38 Hmm... 08:47:59 Maybe I should write a BIOS Forth ;) 08:48:08 ew 08:48:16 What? 08:48:22 heh :P 08:48:32 naw, jk 08:48:35 that's a good idea 08:48:43 flash your bios chip with a forthos 08:48:43 I'm quite bored anyway. 08:48:48 Hah! 08:48:53 ? 08:48:59 thats what you meant when you said bios forth 08:48:59 Of course I mean that it should _USE_ BIOS. 08:49:03 Not _BE_ BIOS. 08:49:07 thin how much documentation you got done now :) 08:50:46 He's going the IsForth documentation for you? ;) 08:51:06 doning 08:51:08 erm 08:51:09 doing* 08:56:38 robert: using the bios is lame 08:56:56 accessing the hardware & video directly is much much more cooler :P 08:57:43 i440r: haven't done the documentation for awhile.. mostly because i was at school all day yesterday and all the files i got off you are on this comp 08:59:05 exscuses 08:59:06 :P 08:59:40 yeah well, i've got two exams on thursday, so i won't be doing any documentation until friday :P 08:59:56 MORE exscuses :P 09:00:02 yay! 09:01:09 ok, gtg 09:01:44 i440r: please name your forthbot "forthbot", it would be a much better name and much more intuitive to people who come to the chan 09:02:22 thin no. i like its name as it is and thers little point in letting people know its a bot, its a USELESS bot :) 09:02:27 its an idler :P 09:02:33 sure 09:03:22 but when it is a fully fledged bot, and when it's purpose is to be helpful to the channel and allow people to show each other how forth code works, then it would be better if its name is "forthbot" 09:03:52 ok, gtg 09:03:53 --- quit: thin ("laters") 09:04:01 no, anyone who doesnt know its a bot or how to use it will learn eventually :) 09:56:17 Bleh. 09:56:25 Writing disk drivers != much fun. 09:56:26 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:59:00 --- quit: ChanServ (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 11:00:45 --- quit: cyberclad 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(~a@adsl-61-221.barak.net.il) joined #forth 11:45:13 --- join: onetom (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 12:11:39 --- join: jamc (~user@as3-6-8.asp.s.bonet.se) joined #forth 12:56:35 Hm. 12:56:37 Hejsan. 12:56:47 Is there any good Forth that can be used as an OS? 12:56:54 * Robert has a spare computer :) 12:58:11 what's a "good forth"? :) 12:58:50 Well... actually, I could try any Forth. 12:59:06 Maybe I should even give Colorforth a try. 12:59:13 yup 13:00:55 Hm. 13:01:04 Nothing else you can recommend? 13:01:35 that's the only self-hosted one I've tried 13:01:51 Okay, is it decent? 13:02:10 it's different... very refreshing :) 13:03:13 Hehe. 13:03:15 Hrm. 13:03:53 * Robert has a feeling his old 486 will melt or something if he tries to use 1024x768, as colorforth is said to use. 13:04:33 uhm, yeah... i think you need an AGP video card too 13:05:03 Yuck. 13:05:28 hmm I recall something called "retro"... hmm... I think somewhere on tunes.org 13:05:51 Hmm.. wasn't that tcn's Forth? 13:05:52 * Robert checks. 13:06:32 http://tunes.org/~tcn/ 13:06:33 Yup. 13:06:39 yeah 13:12:55 Robert: http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst/ciforth.html looks interesting... 13:13:27 * Robert checks. 13:16:01 or that guy davidw that's on here sometimes did a port of ficl that works on top of eCos 13:16:13 http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/zog.html 13:31:19 --- join: bugslayer (guest@62.77.213.195) joined #forth 13:31:21 sup sup 13:31:39 not much... 13:32:46 what've you been up to tathi 13:32:48 Hi bugslayer. 13:32:52 how's the game coming along? 13:33:32 Game? 13:33:35 bugslayer: haven't worked on it much. 13:33:47 what kind of game is it anyways? 13:33:49 did some thinking about a quick little forth engine to use in it though :) 13:33:51 shooter game? strategy game? 13:34:06 mostly shooter 13:34:17 want to get some of the "robot programming" thing into it as well 13:34:47 with gravity? 13:34:51 of course 13:34:56 i haven't really checked out xpilot 13:35:34 but when you tell me you are going to make a game with gravity and its influenced by xpilot, my mind summons a picture of a really horrible game :( 13:35:41 heh 13:36:09 like a really amateurish, ill-conceived game, etc 13:36:16 i hope you do some actual planning and crap 13:36:25 besides 13:36:27 yeah, the default key layout sucks 13:36:36 why make it if it isn't going to be the best game in the universe? 13:36:42 yeah 13:37:01 so at the very minimum, make it a decently addictive game :P 13:37:48 i can help with the design and game concepts if you want :P~~~ 13:37:51 I think Epiar does (or will do) most of the stuff I want 13:37:54 i love designing games ;) 13:38:13 what I really want is a platform where I can try out all the space game ideas I've had over the years :) 13:38:37 (main reason I'm doing this) 13:39:14 what kind of ideas? 13:39:16 though I'm hoping to wind up with something cool enough that people other than Herk and I will play it :) 13:39:18 tell me a little about em :P 13:39:54 let's see... 13:40:45 I'd like to see anyone able to run a server, which could then hook into the network of other servers if they wanted 13:40:54 kind of like what the Parsec guys are doing, I think 13:41:53 haven't really worked this one out, but I'd like to have some kind of economics and resource constraints so you can let people design their own ships 13:42:25 yeah 13:42:36 will they be able to make money? trade? produce items? 13:42:58 yeah, I definitely want to play with that 13:43:14 I've seen so many fun games that do it 13:43:38 Escape Velocity was great 13:44:00 I also played that turn-based Stars! game for Windows a bit 13:45:04 yeah 13:45:14 i've heard of stars! but never got the chance to play it 13:45:18 i played vgap tho 13:45:30 it's pbem, a bit more popular than stars! 13:46:27 that's on my list to look at 13:47:17 i think that vgap is about the most strategic game i've encountered (space game..) 13:47:35 it's not even that much of a strategic game, it's just that there aren't really very many strategic games out there 13:47:51 strategy != tactics :) 13:48:21 1 a (1) : the science and art of employing the political, economic, psychological, and military forces of a nation or group of nations to afford the maximum support to adopted policies in peace or war 13:48:41 so a good strategic game would have political, economic, social, and military components to it 13:49:11 I use strategy games to kill time. 13:49:11 where psychological becomes "social" 13:49:27 robert: what strategy games do you play? 13:49:33 starcraft isn't a strategy game 13:49:34 Not to become a dictator ;) 13:49:36 heh 13:49:39 Hehe. 13:49:45 Warcraft II, Red Alert ;) 13:49:55 I know you won't call them strategy games, but I do. 13:49:56 those aren't strategy games imo 13:50:03 call them tactical 13:50:36 Strategy. That's the common name of the genre. 13:51:24 yeah whatever, just cause a group of people misuse a word doesn't make it right ;P 13:51:59 It does make you able to poke fun of the one who's right. That's always funny. 13:52:14 who is right? 13:52:18 it's all quite arbitrary 13:52:23 We'll never know :) 13:53:51 well i am interested in a SERIOUS strategy game that contains ALL the components: political, economic, social, and military componetns, and has the flexibility of letting you be strategic on an individual level, a business level, and a country level.. 13:53:53 or whatever 13:53:55 i dunno 13:54:01 hard to figure out how that game would work 13:54:16 yeah, don't know how you'd get political into a game :) 13:54:41 if there was seamless strategy across all levels 13:54:48 it's not hard to get politics into a game 13:55:03 politics : managing people, getting groups to do stuff, .. 13:55:17 and some government crap thrown in 13:55:51 oh, ok then 13:55:52 --- quit: Forth (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:56:15 hmm, looks like the Stars! guys ripped a lot of the stuff straight out of vgap 13:56:50 heh 14:04:57 robert 14:05:25 Yes? 14:05:49 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:14:55 --- join: gilbertbsd (~gilbertbs@67.97.122.14) joined #forth 14:15:10 hullo 14:17:19 Onetom? 14:17:44 hey gilbert 14:17:56 hi tathi. 14:18:11 what's going on? 14:18:28 I am doing a lit search to help me implement Y(ET A(NOTHER) F(ORTH) in Asm 14:18:32 any suggestions? 14:19:41 For what OS? 14:20:04 gilbertbsd: brad rodriguez' "moving forth" article series 14:20:10 http://zetetics.com/bj/papers/ 14:20:15 hehe 14:20:23 heh yeah 14:20:31 http://www.fig-uk.org/byof.htm 14:20:32 for x86 dos 14:21:00 I wrote that when I first learnt Forth... Check http://robert.zizi.org/pub/projects/ 14:21:12 I think it's in forth/nforth.tgz or something. 14:21:31 Just read that source, and try to avoid everything I did in it ;) 14:22:27 hehe. 14:22:30 thanks guys. 14:22:43 :) 14:22:54 Is there a name (yet) for people who write forths? 14:23:03 "Freaks". 14:23:10 I thought forthWright or forthsmith(?) was the term? 14:23:15 haha 14:23:22 nope 14:23:23 forthers 14:23:31 forthitect :) 14:23:41 This calls for a Tee shirt. 14:23:45 A DRY tee shirt contest. 14:23:46 I use forthers about anyone coding in Forth. 14:23:53 forthers 14:24:10 forth needs a logo, a mascot and some cool merchandise. 14:24:15 Yes, sure. 14:24:34 chimpanzee 14:24:35 Let's put CM's face, a polar bear and a big F on a silver plate. 14:25:00 hehehe. EVEN bill gates doesn't have his face on anything. 14:25:16 (rightly though, he should be on the BILLion dollar bill) 14:25:23 his face is on the borg 14:25:26 what are you talking about? 14:25:37 borg is microsoft's mascot 14:25:47 really? I didn't know they had a mascot. 14:25:49 they learned FUD from the borg 14:25:58 Ahhh. 14:26:02 FUD = fear, uncertainty, doubt marketing 14:26:09 its the way to go. 14:26:19 that's how you get people to buy inferior stuff :P 14:26:20 "buy our stuff or else" 14:26:46 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 14:26:54 Hi, XeF4. 14:26:57 hi 14:27:11 sup xef4 14:27:13 "buy our stuff or we'll do our best squash whatever company you buy from, and kill the innovation" 14:27:24 xef4: what have you coded in forth? 14:27:48 bugslayer: nothing since I was here last 14:27:52 I still think Forth needs a mascot, a logo and a motto (in forthish) 14:28:11 time for some MAaaarketing. 14:28:16 Yes, sure. 14:28:27 we have a bumper sticker 14:28:28 Forth is such a homogene concept. 14:28:32 gilbert: like an army charging forth? 14:28:34 we can create a bear that says 'brum'. 14:28:40 xef4: i keep confusing cleverdra, you, and a others.. what have you coded in forth before? 14:28:41 hey an ARMY charging forth... 14:29:13 gilbert: i absolutely agree. forth needs marketting, that's its main failure 14:29:23 bugslayer: softsynth, graphics manipuation stuff, genetic algorithm experiments, colorforth editor(must rewrite) aplaplapla 14:29:44 disruptive technology needs marketting and markets need to be discovered for forth 14:29:54 like simple markets at first 14:30:02 bug: and some forth engines and bytecode VMs, but I don't call those applications 14:30:06 forthchips in third world countries or whatever 14:30:18 what's a forth engine? 14:30:30 you coded a forth engine in forth ? 14:30:32 VM by any other name 14:30:38 sure. 14:30:40 I thought forth was quite strong in the embedded chip marketplace. 14:30:50 Xef4 sources/url? 14:30:52 gilbertbsd: dunno 14:31:06 gilbert: not released, not of release quality 14:31:09 apparently forth is used in the embedded chip marketplace, but i've barely heard of anything 14:31:22 hehehe. Space shuttle atlantis. 14:31:32 also Postscript printers. 14:31:32 openboot 14:31:40 SPARC openboot too. 14:31:55 Postscript isn't quite forth 14:31:58 openboot isn't commercial tho? 14:32:05 postscript is a fairly good example 14:32:12 it's something that forth can do very easily 14:32:23 I've been looking around lately, and I keep running across people who are using it for stuff... 14:32:23 to hear ADBOBE tell it, forth begat interpress and interpress begat postscript 14:32:24 openboot is commercial, Open Firmware is a standard by I-forget-which-body (IEEE?) 14:32:30 and postscript begat adobe. 14:32:39 haven't heard of interpress 14:32:45 IEEE is right 14:32:47 It exists. 14:32:58 openboot does what? why would anybody buy it? 14:33:06 or it's just packaged as a feature with sun? 14:33:11 sun workstations 14:33:28 bugslayer: it's a packaged feature with sun workstations and ppc macs and it's good for device debugging and such 14:33:32 openboot is used on sun machines just as freebsd uses it. 14:33:50 it was created/promoted by Mitch Bradley. 14:34:27 yeah IEEE 1275 is probably the only firmware standard in existence to have its own song :) 14:34:31 (to quote the website) 14:34:39 heh 14:34:48 a forth song? 14:34:59 I hope is nothing like the RMS gnu song. 14:35:03 that song is CREEPY! 14:35:11 join us now to share the software 14:35:25 completely off key! 14:35:53 see knuth was a singer, alan kay was a singer but RMS is a hummer. 14:36:10 heh 14:36:43 never heard Knuth sing 14:36:53 he mostly plays the Organ. 14:37:04 oh Lamport is also a musician type. 14:37:26 join us now to share the software 14:37:32 code it in forth 14:37:38 and be merry 14:37:39 ;P 14:37:42 nevermind 14:37:59 lisp has a song, why not forth? 14:38:18 would it be sung in yodaese? 14:38:33 yodaese? 14:38:38 yoda 14:38:40 ese 14:38:41 :P 14:38:45 uh 14:38:50 rpn 14:38:53 jodaksi 14:38:57 :) 14:39:27 * XeF4 doesn't recall Yoda speaking in RPN 14:40:47 yoda speaks ONLY RP 14:40:48 are you being obtuse? 14:41:20 it's hard not to surf the web on forth stuff and read some mention of yoda 14:41:27 hm come to think of it yes 14:41:47 but I seldom notice changes in word order as long as everything makes sense 14:42:02 --- quit: jamc () 14:43:10 live concert with forth could be interesting 14:43:48 where everyone is watching someone code forth? 14:43:57 esp. with a forth small enough to key in from memory to a monitor so there would be no 'cheating' 14:44:14 no, where the musicians code a softsynth up in realtime and play with it 14:44:19 live concerts? THey exist on the jeff fox's pages. 14:44:24 only they are talking concerts. 14:46:03 those are about as 'live concert' as an army of at the door 14:46:18 live perhaps, in concert perhaps, but neither musical nor entertaining 14:46:44 chuck moore isn't entertaining? :P 14:46:54 well he's probably a bit dry 14:47:01 dunno 14:47:33 chuck moore is 14:47:42 jeff fox' blather isn't 14:47:47 gilbertbsd: hi. whats up? 14:47:47 who here wants to get paid coding forth 14:48:06 ah onetom I saw you in the squeak room and I was mildly surprised. 14:48:11 You squeaking now? 14:48:18 no :) 14:48:21 zoping 14:48:25 I see. 14:48:45 does zope require any python? 14:48:53 but id like 2 try & use squeak 14:49:09 zope is a very strange monster 14:49:33 u can do simple things simply in it wo any python knowledge 14:49:53 but the more python u know the more powerful u r in zope 14:50:32 so you are a python convert now? 14:50:45 Python beats perl anyday ;) 14:50:55 no, im not 14:51:17 bah. a few more tasks and you will be utterly seduced. 14:51:21 but im thinking all days how can a zope like shit b realized in forth 14:51:36 bugslayer: why do you keep asking that? 14:51:38 XeF4: jeff fox' blather? what were u talkin about? 14:51:49 bugslayer: I've tried to figure out your motives but I just can't 14:51:51 xef4: asking what? 14:51:54 oh 14:51:56 "who here wants to get paid coding forth?" 14:52:00 heh 14:52:17 well i try to brainstorm about how to create/find markets for forth 14:52:20 onetom a smalltalklike environment might do nicely for forth 14:53:11 and one vision i see, is starting up a little company that operates mostly on the internet, and all the people involved try to find markets and come up with their own ideas, etc 14:53:13 if you stretch your imagination, colorforth starts to seem smalltalk-like (or at least it does to me) 14:53:29 forth seems smaltalk-like 14:53:33 so certainly colorforth too 14:53:47 colorforth gives me the willys. 14:53:57 but you have an object browser-like-thingy in colorforth with type tags and methods and aplapla 14:53:58 it is even more convoluted than apl/j 14:54:16 yeah i guess its closer to smalltalk 14:54:52 gilbertbsd: it isn't convoluted 14:55:06 it's ver ysimilar to forth.. it's just more forthish 14:55:23 he's made a lto of advances that can be applied to regular forth 14:55:36 for those who don't like the color stuff 14:55:57 well , i gotta go 14:55:57 but the coloring stuff could easily have been done in vim. 14:55:57 --- quit: bugslayer ("bye") 14:56:19 gilbertbsd: I have a vim mode for colorforth, in fact :) 14:56:23 (that herk wrote) 14:56:25 not the way colorforth does it, unless vim has come a looong way since 1999 14:56:54 no, not the way colorforth does it. Just coloring more or less regular forth code 14:57:16 yeah thats what I meant. 14:58:18 what things does colorforth make easier? 14:58:37 if its just reduced typing why not just switch to J ? 14:59:36 gilbert: stores definitions in a way that's easy to manipulate both in the editor and with forth code 14:59:56 so its now more lisp like? 15:00:04 basically 15:00:12 but without the conses 15:00:21 and without the lists. 15:00:36 lists are made of conses 15:00:54 have you seen rebol Xef4? 15:01:09