00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.10.29
00:35:34 --- nick: Robert__ -> Robert
00:35:59 <Robert> 02:31 < bugslayer> robert: your string is nice!
00:36:02 <Robert> Hmmm...
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08:32:44 <I440r> hi slpl
08:42:11 <slpl> hi I440r.
08:42:41 <I440r> hi :)
08:42:44 <I440r> http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Midwest/10/25/offbeat.dog.shot.man.ap/index.html  <---
08:42:48 <I440r> dog shoots man~
08:43:08 <I440r> This accident would not have happened if it were not for allowing this man unrestricted access to dogs.
08:43:15 <I440r> lol
08:48:27 <XeF4> better than he deserves for leaving a cocked shotgun on the ground with the safety open
08:48:30 <slpl> rofl
08:51:04 <I440r> my thoughts exactly
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09:53:54 <gilbertbsd> hullo
09:55:55 <I440r> !
09:56:17 <gilbertbsd> I have a forthy question I have been knocking around my head.
09:57:11 <gilbertbsd> here goes... in win32forth, lit 0x7 emit produces a beep.
09:57:31 <gilbertbsd> now what do i do if I want to do stuff to 0x7 ... like make it beep longer and do other things?
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10:03:12 <gilbertbsd> hi bugslayer.
10:03:23 <bugslayer> hi
10:04:35 <gilbertbsd> you know of the 'beep' word right?
10:05:50 <tathi> gilbertbsd: no luck -- the 7 emit beep is built into the BIOS probably
10:06:10 <gilbertbsd> ah I see.
10:07:12 <I440r> bugslayer hang on
10:07:17 <bugslayer> hm
10:07:24 <bugslayer> you prolly can't send me files thru dcc
10:07:31 <bugslayer> i should just log onto your  ftp serv
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10:10:11 <I440r> futhin can you untar things ?
10:10:20 <I440r> ok, ill tell u when :)
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10:12:02 --- mode: ChanServ set +o thin
10:12:23 --- topic: set to 'This channel is primarily a support group dedicated to helping thin code ;) | x86 Linux Forth coded in asm - http://isforth.clss.net | home of forth - http://www.ultratechnology.com/forth.htm' by thin
10:12:49 --- topic: set to 'This channel is primarily a support group dedicated to helping Thin code ;) | x86 Linux Forth coded in asm - http://isforth.clss.net | home of forth - http://www.ultratechnology.com/forth.htm' by thin
10:13:05 --- topic: set to 'This channel is primarily a support group dedicated to helping futhin code ;) | x86 Linux Forth coded in asm - http://isforth.clss.net | home of forth - http://www.ultratechnology.com/forth.htm' by thin
10:13:11 <thin> fuzzy wuzzy was a bear
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10:13:17 <thin> fuzzy wuzzy had no hair
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10:13:29 <thin> fuzzy wuzzy wasn't very fuzzy was he?
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10:23:42 <thin> sup robert
10:24:15 <tathi> new topic thin?
10:24:53 <thin> heh
10:24:56 <thin> yeah
10:25:26 <tathi> who's helping you code?
10:25:38 <thin> the whole channel exists to help me code ;P
10:25:40 <thin> heheh
10:26:19 --- topic: set to 'Help each other code for brownie points! | x86 Linux Forth coded in asm - http://isforth.clss.net | home of forth - http://www.ultratechnology.com/forth.htm' by thin
10:26:22 <tathi> hmm, I could have sworn the whole channel existed to help you NOT code :)
10:26:27 <thin> heh
10:47:08 <I440r> lol
10:47:16 <I440r> he doesnt need that sort of help
10:48:23 <I440r> he is a NOT coding expert :)
10:48:53 <I440r> brb, im gona go watch tv if thers anything on worth watching
10:50:37 --- topic: set to 'This channel is a support group to help futhin code ;) | x86 Linux Forth coded in asm - http://isforth.clss.net | home of forth - http://www.ultratechnology.com/forth.htm' by thin
10:50:48 <thin> okay, laters
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10:58:24 * Robert smiles at topic.
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11:27:35 <thin> how the hell do i quit isforth when ctrl-c doesn't work and isforth is unresponsive?
11:29:47 <Robert> killall isforth :D
11:37:21 <thin> robert: so how's your isforth coding going these days?
11:38:17 <thin> i'm working on a telnet program of some sort
11:38:31 <thin> and then i can use it to mud! bwahaha!
11:38:38 <thin> or to play tradewars
11:38:45 <thin> telnet://198.95.255.5
11:46:34 <Robert> Heh.
11:46:50 <Robert> I wrote a telnet program in isforth before I440r had released his socket code :P
11:47:04 <Robert> Not forthing much now.
11:47:05 <thin> is your code online?
11:47:08 <Robert> Not coding much at all.
11:47:15 <Robert> Hmm..don't think so.
11:47:19 <thin> why not!?
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11:47:32 <Robert> Because it's just some test program.
11:47:33 <thin> evil people keep their code offline!
11:47:34 <thin> :P
11:47:37 <Robert> Heh.
11:47:45 <Robert> Check my code at robert.zizi.org
11:47:48 <thin> well could i see it?
11:47:51 <thin> your telnet program?
11:47:57 <Robert> Sure..DCC?
11:48:21 <thin> you could try ..
11:48:31 <thin> might need to use ftp serv or something
11:49:58 <Robert> For some reason it doesn't seem to be working anymore... but I'll upload it.
11:50:39 <Robert> http://robert.zizi.org/pub/socket.f
11:52:30 <thin> that's cause io.f and structure.f aren't in the forthsrc directory anymore
11:52:32 <thin> i guess
11:52:44 <Robert> Heh.
11:52:51 <Robert> Nah, I mean, I use an old isforth version.
11:52:56 <Robert> But it doesn't want to connect.
11:54:25 <thin> what version?
11:54:36 <thin> 1.00
11:55:32 <thin> i just checked versions 1.00b and 1.04b and they don't have io.f and structure.f
11:55:49 <thin> could you put io.f and structure.f in /pub/ ?
11:56:06 <Robert> 1.06b
11:56:13 <I440r> dont use structure.f
11:56:19 <Robert> Hehe.
11:56:23 <Robert> This is old code!
11:56:24 <I440r> io.f is part of the bot
11:56:32 <I440r> which is top secret :)
11:56:42 <thin> this is a different io.f
11:56:48 <thin> or not?
11:56:58 <thin> you distributed the bot io.f with 1.06b ?
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11:57:05 <thin> heh
11:57:07 <thin> it works for you
11:57:13 <thin> ?
11:57:18 <Robert>     19  : poll ( fd -- flag )
11:57:24 <Robert> Only word defined in my io.f
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11:57:41 <I440r> oh yea
11:57:48 <I440r> io.f is part of the kerlel heh
11:57:53 <thin> i tried out the bot, but couldn't get it to quit..  it didn't see the 'x' key or whatever..
11:58:10 <I440r> try SPACE
11:58:16 <thin> i prolly did
11:58:22 <thin> it's not really a big deal
11:58:23 <I440r> erm then your b0rked :P
11:58:29 <thin> i'm not running bot again :P
11:58:42 <thin> i was just checking out the debug display..
11:59:12 <Robert> I440r: What DNS code do you have so far?
12:00:09 <I440r> it read in all nameservers from /etc/hosts :P
12:00:15 <I440r> that was the hard part :)
12:00:24 <Robert> Heh.
12:00:27 <I440r> but ive been being lazy
12:00:30 <Robert> :P
12:00:44 * Robert is dreaming about The Ultimate IRC Machine.
12:00:49 <I440r> why are you using such an old version of isforth :P
12:00:51 <thin> robert: what did you use structure.f for ?
12:01:00 <Robert> Imagine a keyboard, a printer, a cable, and almost nothing else!
12:01:11 <Robert> (The printer is for output _and_ logs :P)
12:01:20 <Robert> thin: Structures.
12:01:30 <Robert> Just thought I'd write my own ;)
12:01:38 <Robert> After all, that was one of my first Forth programs.
12:01:42 <thin> so you wrote structure.f yourself?
12:01:46 <thin> ok
12:01:54 <thin> cheater! :P
12:02:01 <Robert> Forgive my horrible coding style!
12:02:02 <Robert> Eh?
12:02:04 <thin> (structures is cheating ;P)
12:02:07 <I440r> based on code i saw by mrreach
12:02:08 <Robert> Heh.
12:02:09 <Robert> I see.
12:02:12 <I440r> but others have done that too
12:02:13 <I440r> bbl
12:02:15 <Robert> bye
12:02:16 <I440r> tv -->
12:02:18 <Robert> >:)
12:02:26 <thin> i440r: nawww
12:02:30 <thin> irc is much better than tv
12:02:34 <Robert> Yup.
12:02:42 <thin> play muds!
12:02:44 <Robert> I got some stuff from my school...
12:02:45 <thin> get hooked!
12:02:46 <thin> ;P
12:02:47 <Robert> ICs and so :)
12:02:53 <Robert> (From the mid 70s, but who cares?)
12:02:53 <thin> telnet://198.95.255.5
12:02:57 <thin> tradewars 2002! ;P
12:02:59 <thin> strategy!
12:03:00 <thin> economics!
12:03:06 <thin> it's not a mud
12:03:11 <thin> it's a bbs game
12:03:30 <thin> converted to allowing telnet connections
12:03:39 <Robert> Heh.
12:03:49 <Robert> Written in Forth
12:03:50 <Robert> ?
12:04:09 <thin> nope
12:04:29 <Robert> Bah!
12:04:31 <Robert> Cheater.
12:04:52 <thin> heh
12:05:16 <Robert> http://www.mindprod.com/unmain.html
12:05:25 <Robert> Guess what it says about Forth :)
12:05:46 <Robert> It's a good way to obfuscate code, writing it in Forth ;)
12:06:04 <thin> it says nothing about forth
12:06:08 <thin> naw
12:06:12 <thin> you have to be a sucky coder
12:06:20 <thin> to create sucky code in forth
12:06:35 <Robert> : ? @ . ;
12:06:36 <Robert> xD
12:06:41 <Robert> Short, but not very readable.
12:07:04 <thin> heh
12:07:09 <thin> who says thats good code? :P
12:07:14 <Robert> It isn't?
12:08:42 <thin> it's not consistent
12:09:02 <thin> question marks are reserved for words that test for something and return a boolean value..
12:09:17 <thin> and good forth code is self documenting
12:09:32 <thin> but everyone likes to wallow around in the low level
12:09:39 <thin> so i guess we don't really see too much examples of self documenting
12:09:44 <Robert> Nope.
12:10:02 <thin> well my ansi code for my forth mud looks like this
12:10:05 <thin> white on black
12:10:09 <thin> grey on black
12:10:11 <thin> black on white
12:10:12 <thin> etc
12:10:16 <thin> its quite readable
12:10:18 * Robert on thin
12:10:22 <thin> and there's some other examples
12:10:31 <Robert> Well, I have a few lines of readable code, too.
12:10:44 <thin> at the high level, forth can be very close to english i would say
12:10:56 <thin> but it takes effort to design it right
12:11:02 <thin> so that ultimately it is self documenting
12:11:09 <thin> hmmm
12:11:21 <thin> is it worth the effort? :P
12:11:28 <thin> where are the 10x gains ? :P
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12:36:52 <gilbertbsd> what is colorforth about?
12:41:51 <Robert> Hi gilbert.
12:41:56 <Robert> Haven't used it ;)
12:42:00 <gilbertbsd> hi robert.
12:42:05 <gilbertbsd> I find it confusing.
12:43:18 <Herkamire> gilbertbsd: colorforth is an expirement to see if it makes programming more effective to display some of the syntax as color (or font, etc) information, rather than with symbols (such as: [ ] : ; variable etc....)
12:43:31 <gilbertbsd> ah okay.
12:43:47 <gilbertbsd> but its not forth right?
12:44:17 <Herkamire> sure it is. <shrug/> it depends on your definition. Chuck Moore calls it colorforth
12:44:41 <Herkamire> it is far from ans forth, but so is everything that Chuck has ever done.
12:44:50 <gilbertbsd> have you used it?
12:45:10 <Herkamire> I haven't used chuck's but I'm helping tathi write a native one for ppc (fpos)
12:45:47 <gilbertbsd> ppc? the mac?
12:45:53 <Herkamire> It's been cool so far, but it's too early to say conclusively whether it's an improvement.
12:46:09 <Herkamire> mac hardware yes. not mac os though.
12:46:31 <Herkamire> it will run under ppc linux, and at somepoint standalone (OS)
12:46:40 <gilbertbsd> ummm is Radis (mac clone) ppc as well?
12:46:48 <gilbertbsd> *radius
12:46:48 <Herkamire> rrr... it runs under ppc linux now.
12:46:57 <Robert> Hi, Herkamire.
12:46:59 <Herkamire> never heard of it
12:47:03 <Herkamire> Robert: hi :)
12:47:11 <gilbertbsd> is colorforth hard to wrap a mind around?
12:47:16 <Herkamire> no
12:47:26 <gilbertbsd> but its impossible to do anything with! :(
12:47:46 <Herkamire> the new thing to wrap your brain around is using the "a" register
12:48:01 <gilbertbsd> AX?
12:48:04 <Herkamire> a
12:48:18 <Herkamire> it's an address register
12:48:54 <Herkamire> it makes it much easier to deal with memory without fumbling around on the stack
12:49:18 <Herkamire> gilbertbsd: ax is a x86 asm thing?? anyway I'm not farmilliar with x86 registers...
12:49:31 <Herkamire> or x86 asm period.
12:49:43 <gilbertbsd> but how do you write asm code for ppc?
12:49:56 <gilbertbsd> i thought there was no cheap way of messing with the mac chips?
12:49:58 <Herkamire> in ppc assembly language...
12:50:40 <Herkamire> what?? you buy a mac, then you get a compiler/assembler...
12:50:46 <gilbertbsd> is it free?
12:51:00 <Herkamire> linux is free. hardware is not
12:51:12 <gilbertbsd> Oh you are using linux on a ppc.
12:51:21 <Herkamire> ding! that's correct
12:51:32 <gilbertbsd> that makes more sense. so you are prolly using nasm or some such then?
12:51:48 <Herkamire> no. nasm is an x86 assembler
12:51:58 <Herkamire> gcc compiles ppc asm just fine
12:52:10 <gilbertbsd> ah okay. 
12:53:16 <gilbertbsd> colorforth code is not terribly easy to read.
12:54:48 <Herkamire> I've never attempted, as I don't know x86 asm. I just read about the concept (the html pages on www.colorforth.com)
12:55:06 <gilbertbsd> I am talking about colorforth itself.
12:55:15 <gilbertbsd> nothing is obvious ... not even the hello world.
12:55:27 <Herkamire> I consider colorforth to be the name of a language
12:56:04 <Herkamire> I was never able to get chuck's colorforth os to work
12:57:02 <gilbertbsd> but colorforth is a teensy weensy bit like befunge or some such monstrosity.
12:58:14 <Herkamire> huh?
12:58:28 <gilbertbsd> try a hello world in colorforth
13:08:00 <Herkamire> fpos doesn't have string support yet. so it's a little ugly
13:14:50 <Herkamire> like so:
13:14:52 <Herkamire> create hell $48656c6c , $6f2c2057 , $6f726c64 , $210a0000 , 1 hell 14 write
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15:53:06 <bugslayer> i440r
15:58:34 <bugslayer> anybody alive
16:00:06 <Robert> Yeah.
16:01:38 <onetom> sure
16:01:43 <Robert> Hey onetom :)
16:02:02 * onetom is a betryer! he works on a zope project during the last 3 months
16:02:06 <onetom> ;)
16:02:10 <bugslayer> heh
16:02:23 <bugslayer> how is it going onetom? :)
16:02:47 <bugslayer> i use your guest account for irc when i'm at school
16:02:56 <onetom> np
16:03:06 <onetom> tho, its a bit unstable
16:03:16 <Robert> I use my own account!
16:03:23 <Robert> Erm... on my computer, that is.
16:03:30 <onetom> its just a stupid home adsl (384/64) line
16:04:37 <bugslayer> i usually turn off my comp when i leave the house
16:07:37 <bugslayer> well i'm working on a telnet client
16:07:46 <bugslayer> as soon as it telnets, i'll start converting it into a mud client
16:07:48 <bugslayer> :P
16:07:51 <Robert> :)
16:08:16 <bugslayer> and the source will be good enough to.. *gasp* actually distribute
16:09:29 <onetom> bugslayer: i work on that machine all day
16:09:50 <onetom> bugslayer: all my own corporate projects r located on that
16:09:59 <onetom> bugslayer: so b careful w it! ;)
16:11:06 <onetom> bugslayer: im doing civil service (instead of military 1), so i live in a university buliding in the last months
16:11:26 <bugslayer> yeah i know
16:11:33 <bugslayer> when are you done civil service?
16:11:42 <bugslayer> are you doing work outside of civil service?
16:12:02 <onetom> sure
16:12:15 <onetom> this zope project eg
16:12:44 <bugslayer> onetom: i mean work for money outside of civil service..
16:12:52 <bugslayer> anybody know what ?exit does ?
16:14:48 <onetom> sure
16:15:10 <onetom> but what ?exit does....??? ;)
16:15:29 <bugslayer> what does ?EXIT do
16:15:58 <bugslayer> hmm
16:16:09 <bugslayer> i guess it checks for 0 and exits the word
16:18:29 <onetom> pretty possible
16:18:48 <onetom> GForth 0.5.0, Copyright (C) 1995-2000 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
16:18:48 <onetom> GForth comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; for details type `license'
16:18:48 <onetom> Type `bye' to exit
16:18:48 <onetom> see ?eXIT  
16:18:48 <onetom> : ?EXIT  
16:18:50 <onetom>   POSTPONE IF  POSTPONE EXIT  POSTPONE THEN ; immediate compile-only ok
16:19:16 <bugslayer> yeah
16:29:30 <bugslayer> telnet is fun fun
16:39:20 <bugslayer> fload telnet.f  5   \ tradewars server ?
16:39:46 <bugslayer> uhgh wtf
16:40:49 <bugslayer>  ip: telnet-server 198.95.255.5   \ tradewars server
16:40:55 <bugslayer> it has a problem with that?
16:40:57 <bugslayer> lol
16:42:39 <bugslayer> weird
16:42:41 <bugslayer> very weird
16:42:51 <bugslayer> need to put a period at the end of it
16:43:00 <bugslayer> but in one case, it works without hte period
16:43:10 <bugslayer> i440r: such buggy code ;P
16:45:42 <bugslayer> screw it, lets go for the infinite loop! :D
16:55:13 <bugslayer> grrr
16:55:22 <bugslayer> the battle with the bugs
16:55:27 <bugslayer> and this is a ridiculous one
16:55:40 <bugslayer> some how it is not ignoring comments
16:55:50 <bugslayer> like it tries to interpret the stuff in comments
16:55:51 <bugslayer> :/
16:56:25 <bugslayer> i think i know
16:56:36 <bugslayer> ip: is probably at fault
16:56:59 <bugslayer> nope... i guess not?
16:57:01 <bugslayer> arghhhh
16:58:37 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
16:58:39 <bugslayer> ahhhhh
17:04:43 --- quit: bugslayer ("dead bugs all around")
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18:28:16 --- join: bugslayer (guest@62.77.213.195) joined #forth
18:28:33 <bugslayer> howdy
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18:29:31 <bugslayer> hello
18:29:53 <bugslayer> i dunno how to use ircii for multiple chans
18:31:46 <Herkamire> yo
18:31:55 <Herkamire> futhin: use irssi
18:31:56 <bugslayer> well i'm working on a telnet client in forth
18:32:09 <bugslayer> messing around with forth for a change
18:32:42 <Herkamire> isforth?
18:33:01 <Herkamire> how's the documentation comming?
18:33:37 <bugslayer> oh it's prolly 5% done
18:33:55 --- join: tathi (~josh@ip68-9-59-181.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth
18:41:57 <bugslayer> the forth development environment should display a map of words or something leet 
18:42:18 <bugslayer> it could be useful for reorganizing the words, removing the cruft, etc
18:49:20 <tathi> you mean like some kind of a dependency tree?
18:49:33 <bugslayer> yeah
18:49:58 <bugslayer> it would be a gui thing i guess
18:50:05 <tathi> so far mine haven't been deep enough to bother with that...
18:50:22 <bugslayer> it's not really about depth
18:50:39 <bugslayer> it's just the ability to see all the main words at once
18:50:51 <bugslayer> across multiple files that the main file floads
18:53:04 <tathi> yeah
18:53:07 <tathi> neat idea
18:53:25 <tathi> I just don't think it's important enough to me that I'd actually _write_ it :)
18:53:31 <bugslayer> yeah i know
18:53:32 <bugslayer> heh
18:53:42 <bugslayer> unless it was really easy to make
18:53:53 <bugslayer> altho i see some advantages..
18:53:58 <bugslayer> for my style of coding i guess
18:54:20 <bugslayer> it might even help other forthers actually code more structured and sensible code..
18:54:21 <bugslayer> hmm
18:54:39 <bugslayer> more suitable for bigger programs
18:54:52 <tathi> yeah probably
18:55:02 <tathi> the thing I have most trouble with is all the sort of basic words
18:55:05 <bugslayer> and for coders that like to iteratively refine & organize their code
18:55:20 <bugslayer> tathi: ?
18:55:25 <tathi> any of the interesting stuff I usually have in a file by category and it's pretty obvious where it is
18:56:24 <bugslayer> yeah
18:56:37 <tathi> in my forth, the basic words are grouped by dependency more than by any kind of functional category
18:56:56 <tathi> the assembler comes first, so that has dup, drop, swap, or, and ; defined there
18:57:15 <tathi> while most of the rest of the stuff is defined in the file after the assembler
18:57:16 <bugslayer> well, when i'm working on the telnet client, i have to continually ask myself how i can break it up..  does this crap go into an io category, and this crap goes where? .. it's a bit difficult, especially the naming of categories heh
18:57:24 <tathi> true true
18:57:38 <bugslayer> naming of categories is a bitch
18:57:49 <bugslayer> naming things is a bitch
18:57:53 <tathi> yeah
18:58:03 <bugslayer> conclusion, english sucks! ;)
18:58:11 <tathi> let's hear it for forth, for eliminating parameter names to functions :)
18:58:27 <bugslayer> like a few hours ago i was searching for a synonym for parse
18:58:28 <bugslayer> heh
18:58:39 <tathi> :)
18:58:41 <bugslayer> i don't really like the word "parse" at all :/
18:58:49 <bugslayer> too ambiguous
18:58:58 <bugslayer> there are many different parsing situations and crap
18:59:08 <bugslayer> and some situations where you aren't really parsing anything
18:59:19 <bugslayer> but i would prolly put that code in parse.f or something
18:59:24 <bugslayer> bad stuff ;P
18:59:28 <tathi> that is a tough one
18:59:54 <tathi> I generally find that most stuff starts making sense once I've got it factored properly
19:00:05 <tathi> (say, the third or fourth time around)
19:00:16 <tathi> (or fifth) :)
19:00:27 <bugslayer> yep
19:00:40 <bugslayer> third major refactor is the charm
19:00:43 <bugslayer> :)
19:00:55 <bugslayer> kinda sucks tho
19:00:59 <bugslayer> waste of time ;P
19:01:04 <bugslayer> if we can't do it perfect the first time
19:01:33 <tathi> I'm getting to the point where I can think it through several times, and then get it right the second time
19:01:43 <tathi> don't know that it saves me much time though :)
19:02:06 <tathi> (the second time I actually write some code, that is)
19:02:32 <tathi> and only sometimes :)
19:02:37 <Herkamire> futhin: I keep thinking I want an editor that will display the definitions of words my cursor is on/near and stuff.
19:02:59 <Herkamire> futhin: but I think if I had a debugger and I could just step into/through the code I wouldn't have much use for that.
19:03:03 <Herkamire> I might make it anyway though.
19:03:07 <bugslayer> sounds like hypertext ;P
19:03:24 <bugslayer> ooh
19:03:28 <bugslayer> "into/through" the code
19:03:41 <Herkamire> yeah. I would want foreward and backward buttons
19:03:41 <bugslayer> sounds like you have read "the humane interface" ?
19:03:42 <bugslayer> er
19:03:45 <bugslayer> nevermind 
19:03:48 <tathi> um...that's what a debugger does, isn't it?
19:03:55 <bugslayer> there's this really cool zoomable interface
19:04:01 <bugslayer> detailed in the book
19:04:33 <Herkamire> I haven't read the book. I was thinking about it. are there lots of diagrams?
19:05:20 <bugslayer> not at all, but in the middle there's a bunch of pages full of photos and some that very nicely show off the zoomable interface
19:05:43 <bugslayer> he should put the photos online, they do a really good job :(
19:05:54 <tathi> did the same guy that write the book do the web site?
19:06:05 <tathi> because it seriously sucks
19:06:12 <bugslayer> his brother helped with the website
19:06:13 <bugslayer> heh
19:06:22 <bugslayer> well it sucks less than ultratechnology.com
19:06:27 <tathi> no
19:06:36 <tathi> ultratechnology.com is readable in Lynx
19:06:48 <tathi> the humane interface one, they put all the text inside PRE tags
19:07:05 <bugslayer> that doesn't look good in lynx?
19:07:06 <tathi> and then wrapped it at like 90 characters
19:07:10 <bugslayer> oh yeah
19:07:13 <bugslayer> the wrapping is gay
19:07:40 <bugslayer> in fact i downloaded the .html, ripped out the pre, and redisplayed it
19:07:46 <tathi> I gave up trying to read it _really_ quickly
19:07:56 <bugslayer> well you didn't miss much
19:08:04 <bugslayer> the stuff online isn't really informative at all
19:08:05 <tathi> wish I could find the book at a local library
19:08:19 <tathi> from the stuff I _did_ read, it sounded like the guy might have his head screwed on straight
19:08:36 <bugslayer> well if they don't have it, try interlibrary loan..  ya only have wait 3-4 weeks :P
19:08:47 <bugslayer> the book is AWESOME imo
19:08:55 <tathi> there doesn't seem to be a copy anywhere in the CT state library system
19:09:12 <bugslayer> it's very well written and does a very good job of being unambiguous
19:09:15 <tathi> cool
19:09:21 <bugslayer> he defines all the important words
19:09:23 <tathi> I'll probably get to it eventually
19:09:35 <bugslayer> or says what context it is in..  such as a mathematical definition for some word, etc
19:10:46 <bugslayer> actually, the online stuff kinda sucks because i think that they lack enough information to properly educate people about the humane interface
19:10:57 <tathi> I just don't get really excited about people with really cool ideas anymore...as I've found that if I do get into whatever field, I generally come up with the same ideas on my own, eventually.
19:10:58 <bugslayer> and most will leave thinking that its a bunch of hocuspocus
19:11:16 <bugslayer> tathi: same here
19:11:24 <bugslayer> to be truthful
19:11:28 <tathi> like forth, for instance :)
19:11:41 <bugslayer> hmm
19:12:03 <bugslayer> my library is going to be limited to: robert j ringer and uh... that's it? :P
19:12:06 <bugslayer> naw
19:12:15 <tathi> who's he?
19:12:36 <bugslayer> the first time i encounter an idea, it's all "oooh" but then it fades and becomes pretty normal
19:13:06 <bugslayer> he wrote some books about rational selfishness and a libertarian book
19:13:18 <bugslayer> i read his books in the summer
19:13:38 <bugslayer> anyways
19:13:40 <tathi> ah right
19:13:45 <bugslayer> ideas are meant to be stolen ;P
19:13:49 <tathi> yeah
19:13:51 <bugslayer> the humane interface for instance
19:13:59 <tathi> "intellectual property" is an oxymoron
19:14:13 <bugslayer> i'll just take those ideas and improve on them and make the world's best interface 
19:14:17 <bugslayer> until someone else steals it ;P
19:14:21 <tathi> heh
19:14:31 <bugslayer> but hey, i raised the standard of living for all computer users ;P
19:14:44 <bugslayer> by a significant amount
19:14:56 <bugslayer> take the windows gui
19:15:53 <tathi> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Theft :)
19:15:57 <bugslayer> it pretty much nullifies a ton of productivity you might be capable of, it is full of time wasters, distractions, config issues, and uhh
19:16:09 <tathi> ugh. Windows is horrible
19:16:29 <bugslayer> linux is still similar
19:16:34 <tathi> yeah
19:16:47 <tathi> MacOS has the best gui I know of so far
19:16:55 <tathi> (except as configurability goes)
19:17:04 <bugslayer> and the interfaces of today don't really encourage productivity
19:17:14 <bugslayer> macos still sucks :P
19:17:15 <tathi> though I haven't ever used Amiga or whatever the one people keep saying is so good
19:17:38 <tathi> how so?
19:17:53 <bugslayer> it's still a plain ole interface
19:17:57 <tathi> I mean, I don't like that I can't turn off all the window borders like in my sawfish configuration
19:18:07 <tathi> yeah, ok
19:18:23 <tathi> but it's consistent, and they got all the little stuff right
19:18:36 <bugslayer> the interface detailed in the humane interface (in particular, the zoomable interface) is so radically different
19:19:06 <bugslayer> that it pretty much obsoletes current day interfaces
19:19:09 <bugslayer> at least that's what i think..
19:19:12 <bugslayer> haven't tested it yet
19:19:19 <tathi> :)
19:19:31 <bugslayer> the site has mac python code for an interace similar to it
19:19:35 <tathi> yeah.
19:19:36 <bugslayer> except for the zoomable
19:19:52 <tathi> the editor, I think. Herk was trying it, but it kept crashing
19:19:55 <bugslayer> but why code it in python when it can be coded in forth? ;P
19:20:13 <tathi> he's still talking about GUIs? or no?
19:20:33 <bugslayer> the combbination of forth and the humane interface..  the combination of the ideas and philosophy of chuck moore and jef raskin.. ooooh! ;D
19:20:48 <bugslayer> i think forth would be a really good match for the interface
19:21:06 <bugslayer> like the interface has undo to a zillion times
19:21:12 <bugslayer> so that would be a stack thingie ;P
19:21:21 <bugslayer> but also because it's one layer of interface
19:21:25 <bugslayer> like forth is
19:23:28 <bugslayer> tathi: the interface doesn't really differentiate between gui and tui because they are kind of outdated concepts..
19:23:28 <bugslayer> the interface would use gui tech tho
19:23:33 <tathi> meaning that he's into keeping the interface consistent across the whole computer, not just per application?
19:23:33 <tathi> (one layer of interface)
19:23:52 <bugslayer> yeah
19:24:05 <tathi> yeah...I'm really not interested in anything except text, other than for games and image viewing
19:24:08 <bugslayer> i dunno if you could say there are "applications"
19:24:26 <bugslayer> the whole interface is centered around the concept of content manipulation
19:24:31 <tathi> right
19:25:13 <bugslayer> which is kinda frightening, because i can't imagine sitting at such a computer and it practically compels me to manipulate some content! ;P
19:25:23 <tathi> heh
19:25:23 <bugslayer> with windows, i just get on and waste time ;P
19:25:30 <bugslayer> and do 0 coding
19:25:45 <bugslayer> linux is better for actually doing some coding
19:25:55 <tathi> I'm also skeptical about whether you can use the same interface to manipulate all types of content.
19:26:01 <tathi> yeah
19:26:21 <tathi> I haven't had X installed for like 6 months or something
19:26:27 <tathi> no games, no graphical web browser...
19:26:37 <tathi> I get much more work done :)
19:26:40 <bugslayer> heh
19:27:07 <tathi> though it's kind of a nuisance now that Herk and I are getting going on this network space game
19:27:21 <bugslayer> what game is it?
19:27:27 <tathi> I really have to finish my framebuffer version of the client :)
19:27:46 <tathi> I just keep wanting a space game with semi-real physics (specifically gravity)
19:27:54 <tathi> and network, of course
19:28:10 <tathi> xpilot is pretty cool, but I wanted a bit more than that
19:28:27 <tathi> so we're making one
19:28:39 <bugslayer> the interface is more about how the computer handles content, how it responds to the user, etc..  so it's not really limited to textual only
19:28:53 <bugslayer> put some economics in it ;P
19:29:04 <bugslayer> i like strategic/economic games myself
19:29:19 <tathi> I just think that I'm likely to want very different controls for manipulating 3D models than for editing text
19:29:27 <tathi> though I suppose you can keep a fair amount of similarity
19:29:34 <bugslayer> tradewars, vgap, possibly terminus (haven't played it.. but i played earth & beyond)
19:29:35 <tathi> yeah, definitely economics at some point
19:29:51 <bugslayer> i thought that earth & beyond could've been improved 
19:29:58 <bugslayer> with more flexibility 
19:30:06 <tathi> but realtime, and I definitely want to get a forth engine into it to program bots & stuff in
19:30:12 <bugslayer> they had like 8 different types of characters
19:30:14 <bugslayer> i thought that sucked
19:30:18 <bugslayer> why not just be 1 type
19:30:19 <tathi> heh
19:30:28 <bugslayer> and become some other type based on what you do
19:30:28 <tathi> haven't played any of those
19:30:29 <bugslayer> or something..
19:30:51 <bugslayer> after i played earth & beyond i checked reviews on terminus
19:31:01 <bugslayer> and i thought terminus sounded a bit weak too, but it sounds better
19:31:06 <tathi> I did play some text-based space game once -- it was way better than I thought it would be
19:31:20 <bugslayer> oh, have you played mtrek?
19:31:24 <bugslayer> mtrek was awesome
19:31:27 <tathi> but after playing Discworld, I just can't get into other MUDs & stuff at all
19:31:37 <tathi> there's just no comparison :)
19:31:40 <bugslayer> muds mostly suck
19:31:44 <tathi> don't think I've played mtrek
19:31:45 <bugslayer> heh
19:31:51 <bugslayer> what space game was it?
19:32:00 <tathi> I don't remember
19:32:11 <bugslayer> there was a battletech mud with an awesome combat system drawn in ascii
19:32:15 <tathi> think it was built off of some fairly common engine though
19:32:21 <bugslayer> and you had height, distance, etc
19:32:25 <tathi> cool
19:32:34 <bugslayer> you could play a lightweight mech that jumps high, shoots missiles
19:32:38 <bugslayer> or heavyweight, etc
19:32:42 <bugslayer> it was very detailed
19:32:59 <bugslayer> what kind of gameplay was the text-based space game?
19:33:25 <bugslayer> was it a dock at ports, buy stuff, explore, dock at another port, sell,  colonize planets, etc?
19:33:35 <tathi> something like that
19:33:43 <tathi> you could walk around like a MUD on the planets
19:33:51 <bugslayer> oh
19:33:56 <bugslayer> doesn't sound like tradewars 2002
19:34:01 <tathi> there was something about being able to create new rooms
19:34:17 <tathi> might have been someone made a space thing based off DikuMUD or something
19:34:33 <tathi> when you were in space you had coordinates to other planets/star systems
19:34:46 <bugslayer> mtrek was a multiplayer combat space game..  you controlled a ship, and you could fly around in any direction (3d) and dock at ports and orbit planets
19:35:03 <tathi> "warp-drive" type thingy to other systems, fly around in whatever direction in the local system
19:35:05 <bugslayer> but what distinguished it was the display
19:35:07 <tathi> I was fairly impressed
19:35:45 <bugslayer> mtrek wasn't room-based
19:36:11 <bugslayer> um..  you could literally go anywhere, and you basically had a list of objects in your scanner that were in range to see
19:36:22 <bugslayer> the ships would be at the top and the planets/bases at the bottom
19:36:36 <bugslayer> and you got heading info and warp speed
19:36:39 <tathi> this was room-based on the planets
19:36:42 <tathi> not in space
19:36:49 <tathi> yeah, that's how this worked
19:36:52 <bugslayer> and it continually updates
19:37:01 <tathi> yup
19:37:17 <bugslayer> and combat was tricky as hell
19:37:20 <tathi> except I don't remember you having to do anything special to get into orbit or land -- just get close enough to a planet
19:37:22 <bugslayer> managing your shields, weapons
19:37:25 <tathi> heh
19:37:27 <bugslayer> dropping mines close enough
19:37:29 <tathi> I didn't get that far
19:37:30 <bugslayer> fully 3d etc
19:37:38 <bugslayer> well i'm talking mtrek
19:37:41 <bugslayer> i dunno about your game :P
19:37:59 <bugslayer> sounds intereesting tho
19:38:05 <bugslayer> hopefully they have a combat system :P
19:40:16 <bugslayer> msged you tathi..
19:40:23 <bugslayer> hope it comes out ok
19:40:40 <bugslayer> i captured a log for the game
19:40:54 <bugslayer> because mtrek was offline for a long time
19:41:01 <bugslayer> and i was worried it would disappear for eternity
19:41:05 <tathi> yeah, came out fine
19:41:14 <bugslayer> since i have the log, i could replicate the game
19:41:30 <bugslayer> it had a steep learning curve, but was cool as hell :
19:41:31 <bugslayer> :)
19:41:38 <tathi> :)
19:46:25 <bugslayer> oooh!
19:46:36 <bugslayer> i'm sooo close to telnetting to tradewars ;)
19:46:39 <bugslayer> into
19:46:49 <bugslayer> just gotta solve the problem of sending my output
19:47:22 <bugslayer> i can see the stuff
19:47:24 <bugslayer> hm
19:47:28 <bugslayer> it's not really that hard but whatever ;P
19:47:30 <tathi> heh
19:47:42 <tathi> well, I'm going back to programming...laters...
19:47:45 --- quit: tathi ("leaving")
19:50:48 <Herkamire> futhin: have you written line editing?
19:51:47 <bugslayer> nope
19:52:16 <bugslayer> altho i vaugely know how to input files if i have no editor at all ;P
19:52:34 <bugslayer> using the block addr and expect..
19:52:49 <bugslayer> some people have coded their editor doing that! ;P
19:53:30 <bugslayer> well, telnet.f isn't working, but interestingly, neither was i440r's bot code (when it comes to hitting keys on the keyboard)
19:53:49 <bugslayer> isforth doesn't recognize it
19:53:56 <bugslayer> and the keys hit end up going to shell
19:53:58 <bugslayer> after i kill isforth
19:54:01 <Herkamire> does the socket stuff work?
19:54:05 <bugslayer> yeah
19:54:10 <bugslayer> i'm connecting and seeing everything
19:54:18 <Herkamire> telnet sounds like it would be really easy then
19:54:47 <bugslayer> yeah
19:55:05 <Herkamire> 10 word tib #tib soc @ write
19:55:25 <bugslayer> i wonder if putty is interfering with the key getting stuff..
19:55:37 <bugslayer> because i440r's bot code has
19:55:52 <bugslayer> i440r's bot code will quit if you hit x or space
19:55:56 <bugslayer> but it doesn't do that for me
19:56:16 <bugslayer> and when i kill isforth it gets sent to the shell
19:56:17 <Herkamire> futhin: can't you just do something like what I just typed to handle input?
19:56:21 <bugslayer> bash-2.05$ x x xx x x x x x
19:56:47 <bugslayer> i do
19:56:50 <Herkamire> futhin: that means that isforth isn't reading from the keyboard. it's probably looping or crashed or something
19:57:00 <bugslayer> key telnet-key 
19:57:07 <bugslayer> and telnet-key just sends it right off
19:57:34 <Herkamire> are you doing it with line buffering or without?
19:57:38 <bugslayer> without
19:57:42 <Herkamire> for muds you want buffering right?
19:57:48 <bugslayer> can't play tradewars with line buffering
19:59:58 <bugslayer> well, i gotta go
20:00:24 <bugslayer> i'm pretty sure it should be reading from the keyboard but isn't :P
20:00:32 <bugslayer> it doesn't crash or anything
20:00:40 <bugslayer> and besides, i was saying
20:00:46 <bugslayer> i440r's bot code has the same problem
20:00:48 <bugslayer> but it works for i440r
20:00:56 <bugslayer> and it hasn't been modified
20:01:05 <bugslayer> and it's fresh
20:01:23 <bugslayer> okay
20:01:25 <bugslayer> laters
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22:05:46 <bugslayer> sup all
22:05:50 <bugslayer> wassup onetom
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22:07:04 <bugslayer> hey proteusguy
22:07:15 <proteusguy> bugslayer: howdy.
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.10.29