00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.10.28
02:56:13 <Robert> Heh :)
02:56:22 <Robert> That joke has been up forever.
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07:30:03 <snowrichard> hello
07:30:19 <Robert> Hi :)
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07:32:17 <snowrichard> is anybody here now? 
07:32:51 <XeF4> A! S! D! F! J! K! L! DESPITE QWERTY ALL IS WELL!
07:33:43 <snowrichard> just wondered what all that netsplit stuff was. :)
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07:35:28 <snowrichard> but anyway I am writing a language for Vax netbsd I am calling michael.  I am using indirect threaded code, borrowing the basic operators from C.  But the assembler forces separate data and instruction space so I am going to have to have a slightly different model for variables than the other forths I have seen before. 
07:36:14 <XeF4> the assembler or netbsd?
07:36:31 <XeF4> the former is easy enough to fix: get a new assembler
07:36:39 <snowrichard> the text segment is not writeable, you must put data you want to write to in a data segment. 
07:37:03 <XeF4> can you mprotect/mmap +PROT_WRITE?
07:37:08 <I440r> harvard architecture 
07:37:18 <I440r> take a look at some 8051 forths 
07:37:47 <I440r> doesnt netbsd have an mprotect syscall ?
07:38:17 <I440r> linux also tries to enforce harvard architecture on you but my isforth just mprotects all its memory to r/w/x :)
07:38:35 <snowrichard> I defined a macro that defines variables for me at assembly time. I have only been using netbsd on the vax for a week or so I don't know that much about the syscalls. 
07:39:09 <I440r> snowrichard ok then, i would assume you can redefine the memory protections (is this an x86 machine?)
07:39:18 <snowrichard> vax
07:39:24 <I440r> oh heh
07:39:51 <I440r> hmm im sure you can mprotect
07:40:29 <snowrichard> could I do that from a C subroutine?
07:40:42 <I440r> however. doing so might have a performance impact
07:40:56 <I440r> yes, theres libc wrappers for mprotect i think
07:41:22 <snowrichard> actually I think I want to keep the separate spaces if I can figure it out.  It would keep an application from being able to destroy the interpreter. 
07:41:40 <I440r> if you can figure out a way to have code and data sepreate it would probably be faster
07:41:59 <I440r> like a variable could be considered a constant pointer to the variables ram area
07:43:22 <snowrichard> so the only little bit more overhead would be when I defined a variable, at runtime it would look like a constant that was an address. 
07:44:27 <snowrichard> so I would need a pointer to the next available space in the data space like HERE is a pointer to dictionary space in some forths. 
07:47:07 <I440r> yes 
07:48:30 <snowrichard> i can't put data in the text segment, but I wonder if I could put a piece of code in the data segment? 
07:49:16 <snowrichard> there would need to be a piece of code defined with the variable that puts its address on the parameter stack. 
07:51:26 <snowrichard> like:  moval var,-(r11); next; 
07:51:52 <snowrichard> r11 is my parameter stack.
07:52:41 <snowrichard> next is a macro that does:  movl (r10)+,r8; jmp *(r8); 
07:53:07 <snowrichard>  where r10 is the IP for the language. 
07:54:53 <snowrichard> I'll write a little test routine that creates some instructions in data space and jmps to them to see if it works. 
07:55:14 <I440r> you can define a constant in the text segment as pure code, no data.
07:56:31 <snowrichard> but at runtime when I am creating a new variable, the assembly is already over with.  I would have to have code created when createing a variable to stack the variables address .
07:57:10 <I440r> hmmm point
07:58:24 <snowrichard> I have a macro to create variables for the interpreter to use.  But when a user is trying to program with the language they will need to create variables as well. 
07:59:00 <I440r> right. or else they are going to be slightly crippled in their development heh
07:59:14 <I440r> i bypassed all this by making all memory read/write/execute
08:00:22 <snowrichard> I think I can create a template with the code to access a variable in the text segment.  At variable define time, copy that code to data segment, insert the correct address of the variable in it, then when I reference the variable, use that code as its run time code. 
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08:06:52 <snowrichard> I'll write a litte test routine and try it out. 
08:07:00 <snowrichard> need a break first.  later.
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08:08:08 <I440r> :)
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15:29:08 <bugslayer> hi
15:29:14 <Robert> Hi.
15:29:34 <bugslayer> how do i get the ascii value of a char in isforth?
15:29:41 <bugslayer> i don't see ASCII or CHAR
15:31:46 <Robert> 'x'
15:31:53 <Robert> As simple as it can get :)
15:31:59 <Robert> (And slow, and complex)
15:32:38 <bugslayer> oh yeah
15:32:44 <bugslayer> i tried 'a and `a
15:32:53 <bugslayer> forgot that it was supposed to end with '
15:34:10 <bugslayer> so how do you create a string in isforth again?
15:34:20 <bugslayer> blah CREATE
15:34:33 <bugslayer> " blahblah" ?
15:34:36 <bugslayer> no..
15:34:36 <bugslayer> geez
15:34:44 <bugslayer> bad memory
15:37:29 <bugslayer> hey come on guys, talk talk talk :P
15:39:44 <bugslayer> bahbahbah
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15:39:56 <Robert> Hm.
15:40:04 <Robert> You do.
15:40:13 <Robert> create my-string ," MY STRING IS NICE"
15:40:14 <Robert> Bah.
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16:14:43 <gilbertbsd> hullo
16:14:47 <gilbertbsd> anyone up?
16:14:58 <gilbertbsd> Now that I have read a little more about assembler, I have some forth questions.
16:15:33 <Robert> Hey :)
16:15:52 <gilbertbsd> hi robert.
16:15:57 <gilbertbsd> can you answer some forth questions?
16:16:03 <Robert> Maybe. Ask :)
16:16:22 <gilbertbsd> okay, the machine converts everyhing to work on a stack right?
16:16:28 <gilbertbsd> like add eax, bx etc...
16:16:31 <gilbertbsd> is that correct?
16:18:11 <gilbertbsd> wake up forthers
16:19:02 <Robert> Hm.
16:19:19 <Robert> Well, it simply runs a little function that uses the stack.
16:19:20 <Robert> Like...
16:19:28 <Robert> mov eax,[ebx]
16:19:36 <Robert> add [ebx+4],eax
16:19:39 <Robert> add ebx,byte 4
16:19:46 <Robert> That could be the function for "+"
16:20:01 <gilbertbsd> so forth could do that faster right?
16:20:09 <gilbertbsd> since it already operates with the stack?
16:21:35 <Robert> Uhm.
16:21:48 <Robert> No, on non-stack-based machines, it has to do it that way.
16:21:59 <Robert> Unless you're using some sort of an optimized compiler.
16:22:21 <gilbertbsd> is there a layer between forth and the machine?
16:22:36 <Robert> Yes, on most CPUs...
16:22:46 <gilbertbsd> is there a layer between asm and the machine?
16:22:56 <gilbertbsd> where machine == machine code
16:27:09 <Robert> No.
16:29:13 <Robert> Good night.
16:36:30 <gilbertbsd> i440?
16:38:38 <XeF4> no, they both compile to the same code and run at the same speed
16:39:05 <XeF4> just being forth doesn't give the hardware magical properties it hadn't before
16:39:11 <gilbertbsd> ah okay... so thats how forth and asm are about equal?
16:40:09 <XeF4> for adding 2 numbers from the top of the stack and returning the result on the stack, yes
16:40:20 <XeF4> there aren't many different (sane) ways to do that
16:40:49 <XeF4> and besides, the forth + is almost certainly coded in asm
16:41:07 <gilbertbsd> hmmm.
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16:42:28 <rsnow1> I need a netbsd (or I can change os's if I must) VAX macro assembler
16:42:43 <gilbertbsd> you have a vax box?
16:42:56 <rsnow1> I have the VAX station 3100 model 30
16:43:15 <gilbertbsd> how much did it cost?
16:43:21 <rsnow1> $20
16:43:34 <gilbertbsd> really? Where?
16:43:43 <rsnow1> on ebay, nobody bid against me.
16:44:23 <rsnow1> most of them are going around $50 to $100 now though. 
16:44:44 <gilbertbsd> hmmm.
16:45:45 <gilbertbsd> xef4 what do you use forth for?
16:46:00 <rsnow1> I was trying to use as on netbsd 153 vax to write a threaded language interpreter similar to forth.  But I need to have a link field in my headers that are assembled into the kernel and it doesn't have any assembly time variables. 
16:46:46 <gilbertbsd> so what were you going to use your language for?
16:46:51 <gilbertbsd> is it just for fun?
16:47:07 <rsnow1> so I might have to backtrack and implement the VAX macro assembler in C to implement my little language. 
16:47:49 <rsnow1> unless there is already an opensource VAX assembler. 
16:48:01 <rsnow1> that has a decent macro language :)
16:48:53 <gilbertbsd> I don't know anything about vax/vms unfortunately.
16:49:25 <rsnow1> I just wanted to write an interpreter for the fun of it.  
16:49:42 <gilbertbsd> ah okay.
16:49:56 <gilbertbsd> I am trying to learn asm in order to understand forth myself.
16:49:59 <rsnow1> to learn the assembly language. 
16:50:50 <gilbertbsd> but do you understand forth very well?
16:50:55 <rsnow1> one component of my language would have been the ability to assemble code routines so I was going to have to have some kind of assembler eventually anyway. 
16:51:14 <XeF4> gilb: just about anything.  softsynth,graphics manipulations,etc
16:51:38 <rsnow1> I have implemented something like forth on a Coco computer once.  I have written a few programs with F83 on a pc. 
16:52:11 <XeF4> Coco?
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16:52:37 <rsnow1> radio shack color computer.  based on 8-bit 6809 microprocessor. 
16:53:14 <rsnow1> I was using os/9, a memory-based os similar to unix
16:53:15 <gilbertbsd> whats the minimum amount of forth  you need to write the rest of forth in?
16:53:27 <gilbertbsd> os/9? plan 9?
16:53:34 <gilbertbsd> or MAC os 9?
16:54:11 <rsnow1> radio shack licensed it from somebody.  the commands were similar to unix, but not very many of them.  
16:54:31 <rsnow1> floppy disk file system doesn't have much room
16:55:01 <bugslayer> gilbertbsd:  9 is the very minimum afiak, but it's slow.   actually, that's a lie..  you could probably get away with like 2 or 3 words
16:55:12 <bugslayer> gilbertbsd: machineforth has 27 words
16:55:21 <bugslayer> s/words/primitives
16:55:36 <gilbertbsd> is that the stuff chuck moore uses?
16:55:45 <bugslayer> for his forthchips, yes
16:55:50 <bugslayer> for 25X
16:56:04 <gilbertbsd> but he is 'out there'...
16:56:06 <bugslayer> i heard he did colorforth ontop of a machineforth VM
16:56:08 <bugslayer> naw
16:56:15 <bugslayer> he's not really out there
16:56:25 <gilbertbsd> there is forth for chuck moore, and then there is a forth for everyone else.
16:56:26 <bugslayer> just most of us are too lazy to focus on colorforth
16:56:43 <bugslayer> no, some guys start out with colorforth straight off the bat and do fine
16:56:54 <bugslayer> it's probably better to learn aha and colorforth
16:57:00 <bugslayer> and not learn any other forth
16:57:01 <rsnow1> color wouldn't help me any.  I'm color blind. 
16:57:05 <bugslayer> because you have to unlearn
16:57:20 <gilbertbsd> what advantages does color forth have over the other forths?
16:57:42 <bugslayer> rsnow1: that's not an excuse, you can use bold,italic, etc instead of colors
16:57:58 <bugslayer> gilbertbsd: it's much more forthish
16:58:10 <rsnow1> I've never seen it.  and it wouldn't run on this vax.  no graphics. 
16:58:35 <gilbertbsd> asm mnemonics match machine code one for one. what does forth match with?
16:58:38 <gilbertbsd> the asm?
16:58:40 <bugslayer> well chuck moore's colorforth runs on a pc, but nothing is stopping anybody from coding it for different platforms
16:58:52 <bugslayer> tathi/herkamire are coding a colorforth for the ppc
16:59:11 <bugslayer> gilbertbsd:  you know asm macros?
16:59:19 <gilbertbsd> some, still learning tasm.
16:59:21 <bugslayer> that's what forth is like.. it's a macro assembler
16:59:26 <gilbertbsd> ah okay.
16:59:28 <bugslayer> a macro is a block of asm code
16:59:38 <bugslayer> so DUP is just a block of asm code
16:59:41 <bugslayer> probably looks like
16:59:50 <bugslayer> mov eax,ebx
16:59:52 <gilbertbsd> mov eax, ebx
16:59:54 <bugslayer> inc ebx
16:59:54 <gilbertbsd> touche :D
16:59:56 <bugslayer> or whatever
17:00:01 <bugslayer> yeah
17:00:01 <bugslayer> :)
17:00:22 <gilbertbsd> okay so forth can just be a bunch of macros.
17:00:40 <gilbertbsd> I have d/l the nasm code for isforth but I am not sophisticated enough to understand it.
17:00:51 <gilbertbsd> how would the forth interpreter/listener be created?
17:00:57 <rsnow1>  movl (r11)+,r0; movl r0,-(r11); movl ro,-(r11); next  is probably how I would have it on my vax. 
17:01:42 <bugslayer> gilbertbsd:  check out this http://hermantom.homeip.net/~guest/forth/kernel.fs
17:02:01 <bugslayer> that's the forth kernel
17:02:06 <bugslayer> it doesn't have the interpreter
17:02:09 <gilbertbsd> now whats that?
17:02:16 <gilbertbsd> ah okay...
17:02:23 <gilbertbsd> but what about the interpreter... the listener?
17:02:39 <bugslayer> the interpreter is a loop that reads in input, and runs it..
17:02:51 <gilbertbsd> ah yes.
17:03:08 <gilbertbsd> so first you make a loop... and then you make a prompt inside the loop...
17:03:19 <gilbertbsd> and then how do you scan for forth words to execute within that loop?
17:03:25 <bugslayer> : interpreter begin readin finditindictionary ?abort? until ;
17:03:47 <bugslayer> thos are made up words
17:03:49 <gilbertbsd> so there isn't really a listener?
17:04:01 <bugslayer> dunno what a listener is
17:04:07 <bugslayer> prolly not
17:07:10 <gilbertbsd> listener == interpreter.
17:07:10 <gilbertbsd> the interactive prompt thingamabob.
17:07:11 <bugslayer> there isn't really a "prompt" in forth
17:07:11 <rsnow1> just the OK after it finished executing something. 
17:07:11 <bugslayer> yeah, but that's more of a response, i wouldn't call it a prompt 
17:07:11 <bugslayer> gilbertbsd: don't worry, semantics is the hardest part of forth ;)
17:07:23 <bugslayer> instead of calling it a function, we call it a word
17:07:32 <bugslayer> instead of calling it a library, we call it a dictionary or vocabulary
17:07:34 <bugslayer> etc :P
17:08:27 <bugslayer> the technical jargon of forth is inconsistent with the technical jargon for computer science, that probably is a factor why not that many people are interested in forth or understand it..
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17:09:12 <rsnow1> it would be kind of slow to start up, but I could integrate an assembler into my interpreter and have part of the startup code be to assemble a kernel, then switch to standard input for the interactive use. 
17:09:59 <bugslayer> does PREVIOUS go back to the previous vocabulary or the previous definition?
17:10:52 <I440r> write me an assembler while your at it :)
17:10:55 <I440r> heh
17:11:10 <bugslayer> i440r: tell me about previous
17:11:11 <I440r> it discards the top itme in the context stack
17:11:21 <bugslayer> yeah, what the heck is context?
17:11:32 <bugslayer> there's context and there's current
17:11:36 <bugslayer> .context .current
17:11:38 <I440r> context is a list of voabularies to search 
17:11:46 <bugslayer> hm
17:11:55 <I440r> current is the vocab where all new defs go
17:12:00 <I440r> current does NOT need to be in context
17:12:01 <bugslayer> so when i have
17:12:04 <bugslayer> vocabulary net
17:12:07 <bugslayer> net definitions
17:12:09 <bugslayer> blahblah code
17:12:13 <bugslayer> compiler definitions
17:12:15 <bugslayer> blah blah code
17:12:17 <bugslayer> previous
17:12:21 <bugslayer> where am i now?
17:13:23 <Herkamire> futhin: yes, fpos is for ppc.
17:13:32 <rsnow1> where could I find a description of the a.out object file format? 
17:13:40 <I440r> ok
17:13:42 <I440r> do this
17:13:50 <I440r> in isforth (are you in isforth?)
17:13:55 <bugslayer> yes
17:13:57 <I440r> only forth compiler
17:13:59 <I440r> .context
17:14:08 <I440r> will show ROOT FORTh COMPILER <-- top
17:14:13 <I440r> previous
17:14:15 <I440r> .context
17:14:17 <I440r> will show
17:14:19 <I440r> ROOT FORTH
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17:14:59 <gilbert_bsd> sorry my machine crashed massively.
17:15:09 <I440r> lol 
17:15:16 <bugslayer> hah, i440r, isforth isn't consistent
17:15:29 <bugslayer> ROOT FORTH COMPILER (top)
17:15:31 <bugslayer> versus
17:15:35 <I440r> yes i know
17:15:40 <bugslayer> 1 0 0 127
17:15:42 <bugslayer> where 1 is top
17:15:49 <I440r> so just deal with it :P
17:15:53 <bugslayer> heh
17:15:58 <I440r> .s is correct, .context etc arent
17:16:02 <bugslayer> naw
17:16:05 <bugslayer> .s is incorrect
17:16:09 <I440r> but 'I' know about it so... 
17:16:09 <bugslayer> heh
17:16:11 <I440r> bleh
17:16:12 <bugslayer> it's lame :P
17:16:27 <bugslayer> do it the standard way or throw out all standards in isforth ;P
17:16:31 <gilbert_bsd> i440 do you have a 'see' in isforth?
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17:16:44 <I440r> not yet
17:16:59 <I440r> im not goint to implement the decompiler till have hve a metacompiler
17:17:02 <I440r> thers a reason for that
17:17:37 <gilbert_bsd> i440 i was asking about a listener before netware dissapeared with win2k on me...
17:17:55 <gilbert_bsd> I got the part where its a loop with a prompt that reads in input...
17:18:05 <gilbert_bsd> and then it was gone.
17:18:22 <gilbert_bsd> or rather I was gone.
17:19:38 <I440r> eh heh
17:19:52 <I440r> a listener ?
17:20:05 <gilbert_bsd> an interpreter?
17:21:00 <gilbert_bsd> well the prompt IS a listener no?
17:21:13 <bugslayer> there's no prompt in forth 
17:21:19 <bugslayer> and a listener is too ambiguous
17:21:22 <I440r> yes there is
17:21:24 <bugslayer> it can mean something else
17:21:26 <bugslayer> like sockets
17:21:26 <I440r> thers an OK prompt
17:21:34 <bugslayer> that's not a prompt
17:21:35 <bugslayer> heh
17:21:39 <bugslayer> that's more of a response
17:21:42 <I440r> yes. a listener is a sockets thing :)
17:21:46 <gilbert_bsd> whats the 'ok' thing (thing I am calling listnener)
17:23:16 <gilbert_bsd> whats the thing that says 'ok' all the time?
17:24:01 <I440r> quit calls interpret
17:24:19 <I440r> interpret conditionally calls .ok
17:24:25 <I440r> which displays OK
17:24:30 <I440r> maybe :P
17:24:37 <I440r> depending on the current state etc
17:26:45 <I440r> <-- afk
17:26:56 <gilbert_bsd> brb
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17:28:57 <bugslayer> robert: your string is nice!
17:38:06 <bugslayer> ls
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17:38:13 <bugslayer> ls --color
17:38:21 <bugslayer> the chan is full of color!
17:38:37 <gilbertbsd> http://www.tinyboot.com/fig1.gif
17:38:52 <gilbertbsd> bugs ... is that _the_ forth interpreter?
17:38:56 <gilbertbsd> the 'listener'.
17:39:06 <bugslayer> that's the interpreter
17:39:18 <bugslayer> please get rid of "listener" from your vocabulary heh
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17:39:25 <bugslayer> unless you are talking about sockets stuff
17:39:35 <gilbertbsd> I picked that from some place.
17:41:03 <bugslayer> nice picture
17:41:11 <bugslayer> and yes, it IS the forth interpreter
17:41:33 <bugslayer> you should try to get Starting Forth by leo brodie
17:41:43 <gilbertbsd> so IF (big IF) I can write that I got the heart of forth beating?
17:41:59 <gilbertbsd> oh I got starting forth alright ... but there is no forth w/o learning asm I discovered.
17:43:16 <bugslayer> umm
17:43:19 <bugslayer> starting forth is pretty good
17:43:26 <bugslayer> but prolly needs to be read several times
17:43:34 <bugslayer> i'm trying to get it again from the library
17:43:39 <gilbertbsd> and I agree. I even wrote to leo brodie to put the $#$#$ book online. he didn't respond though.
17:43:39 <bugslayer> gotta read it again
17:43:51 <bugslayer> well if you have it
17:43:57 <bugslayer> and you have access to a scanner
17:43:58 <gilbertbsd> I don't own a copy.
17:44:03 <bugslayer> ok
17:44:08 <bugslayer> when i get my hands on it again
17:44:09 <bugslayer> i'm scanning it
17:44:19 <bugslayer> heh
17:44:34 <bugslayer> <-- warez kiddie ;P
17:44:50 <bugslayer> gilbertbsd:  yeah, you need the forth kernel and the interpreter
17:44:55 <gilbertbsd> I shoulda scanned it when I got my paws on it.
17:45:11 <bugslayer> the kernel comes before the interpreter
17:45:22 <gilbertbsd> whats in the kernel?
17:49:00 <bugslayer> uh basic stuff..  
17:49:00 <bugslayer> like dictionary
17:49:00 <bugslayer> stack
17:49:00 <bugslayer> return stack
17:49:01 <gilbertbsd> what forth standard do people follow in implementing forth?
17:49:01 <bugslayer> http://hermantom.homeip.net/~guest/forth/kernel.fs
17:49:01 <gilbertbsd> forth is gonna be my first asm app you see :D
17:49:01 <bugslayer> don't worry about a standard..
17:49:01 <bugslayer> but if you really want to, try sticking with f83
17:49:02 <gilbertbsd> its gonna be in tasm so it will be dos based.
17:49:49 <bugslayer> thats cool
17:50:04 <bugslayer> i encourage you to look closely at kernel.fs   you can adapt it to asm
17:50:10 <bugslayer> and it's fairly understandable
17:50:35 <bugslayer> when you look at kernel.fs
17:50:37 <bugslayer> and you see
17:50:39 <bugslayer> variable sp
17:50:48 <bugslayer> that's just SP in asm
17:50:53 <bugslayer> the SP register
17:51:00 <bugslayer> etc
17:51:22 <bugslayer> well i gotta go
17:51:31 <gilbertbsd> thanks man. I am printing it out.
17:51:32 <bugslayer> laters
17:51:39 <bugslayer> cool
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