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09:59:58 <gilbertbsd> hi i440
10:00:20 <I440r> hi
10:00:32 <gilbertbsd> I have a question about your code...
10:00:42 <gilbertbsd> how come each code ... next thing has two names?
10:01:30 <I440r> well
10:01:40 <I440r> the 'CODE' is a macro
10:01:49 <gilbertbsd> like code ':' 'colon'
10:01:49 <I440r> the first name is a string to compile into the words header
10:02:07 <I440r> the next one is the label to assign to the code field address
10:02:20 <I440r> both coded definitions and colon definitions need a header
10:02:34 <gilbertbsd> oh I see.
10:02:54 <gilbertbsd> so code '+' 'add' means that the 'add' is the header and the '+' is what I type in?
10:03:18 <I440r> yes you type in the same string as is in the words header
10:03:29 <gilbertbsd> so they are not synonyms?
10:03:32 <I440r> the word 'plus' is a label so the assembler can refer to it
10:03:36 <I440r> no. you cant do
10:03:39 <I440r> 1 5 plus
10:03:41 <I440r> in isforth heh
10:03:46 <I440r> the label is gone by then
10:04:23 <I440r> the code and colon macros both refer to a 'header' macro 
10:04:37 <gilbertbsd> ah I see.
10:04:39 <I440r> header creates a word header in head space for that word
10:04:58 <I440r> using the 'wordname' thats in the single quotes of the macro call parameters 
10:05:06 <I440r> code '+', plus
10:05:16 <I440r> it then assigns the label
10:05:19 <I440r> plus:
10:05:30 <I440r> to where the assembler is about to assemble the actual code!
10:05:43 <I440r> btw, this is a good question heh 
10:06:35 <gilbertbsd> Newbie rule huh?
10:06:44 <gilbertbsd> *newbies
10:07:52 <Herkamire> gilbertbsd: the first is the name you use in forth, and the seccond is the name that you I440r uses in the asm code (since you can't use names like ':' or '+' in assembly language)
10:08:09 <gilbertbsd> ohhh I see.
10:08:18 <gilbertbsd> ... even further
10:08:24 <I440r> :)
10:08:48 <I440r> its realy quite simple until you actually look in macros.1 heh
10:08:55 <Herkamire> :)
10:09:00 <I440r> those macros are small but they are the most complex part of the whole fscking thing
10:09:23 <gilbertbsd> how would you have written something like '+' without a macro?
10:10:15 <I440r> pluslink:
10:10:25 <I440r>  dd previous_word_link
10:10:33 <I440r>  db 1,'+'
10:10:47 <I440r>  dd plus_cfa
10:10:52 <I440r> plus_cfa:
10:10:57 <I440r>   pop eax
10:11:02 <I440r>   add ebx, eax
10:11:04 <I440r>   next
10:11:09 <I440r> something like that
10:11:22 <I440r> but that would have given me interleaved headers and code
10:11:23 <gilbertbsd> wow.
10:11:30 <I440r> i definatly wanted seperate headers
10:11:44 <I440r> the word headers all have three items
10:11:53 <I440r> 1: a pointer to the previous word in the chain
10:11:57 <I440r> 2: a name field 
10:11:58 <gilbertbsd> so tell me great Zen master, how does a humble grasshopper learn to spew forth such poetic assembler?
10:12:01 <I440r> 3: a pointer to the cfa
10:12:30 <I440r> send 5 years locked in your bedroom with the lights off and the blionds drawn
10:12:38 <I440r> and do nothing bug code, eat and sleep
10:12:41 <I440r> all in that room
10:12:52 <gilbertbsd> ah see.
10:12:53 <I440r> when you come out you will be a master at assembler kung fu
10:13:05 <gilbertbsd> I wish you had told me this when I was a freshman.
10:13:09 <I440r> :)
10:13:09 <gilbertbsd> Gaad I had a lot of time!
10:13:46 <I440r> lol
10:14:01 <Herkamire> gilbertbsd: becoming a good programmer comes from practice and disciplin.
10:14:02 <I440r> i gotta take the damned dogz for a walk :P
10:14:18 <I440r> and very little rtfm
10:14:20 <Herkamire> and you have to take one a few big projects and see them through
10:14:34 <I440r> dont READ how to do something, just DO it
10:14:35 <gilbertbsd> herkamire I decided to start from scratch...
10:14:48 <gilbertbsd> I have started from flowcharts all over again.
10:14:57 <Herkamire> gilbertbsd: good :)
10:15:02 <I440r> the only exception to that rule is to read other peoples programs
10:15:05 <I440r> NOT their sources
10:15:06 <I440r> they suck
10:15:16 <gilbertbsd> i440 your program was quite readable.
10:15:17 <I440r> just reverse engiener their executables to learn how
10:15:23 <gilbertbsd> now how is the program different from the source?
10:15:27 <Herkamire> gilbertbsd: usually to get a good program you have to start over at least once
10:15:31 <I440r> yes but thats because i WANT it to be
10:15:34 <gilbertbsd> oh you mean compile and dissassemble?
10:15:35 <I440r> most morons dont give a fuck
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10:15:56 <I440r> i learned assembler by reverse engineering other peoples code
10:16:10 <gilbertbsd> I see. 
10:16:21 <I440r> i didnt look at their sources because the sources are always so fucking convoluted that it would be a waste of time
10:16:30 <gilbertbsd> from flowcharts the next candidate is assembler ...
10:16:32 <I440r> i didassembled their executables
10:16:50 <gilbertbsd> and I have already started reading Swan's TASM book (I don't have a PC at home :( )
10:17:21 <Herkamire> gilbertbsd: work on a project untill you get it to the point where you think you should rewrite it. then you have learned something. so you rewrite it, and get much further, and then you learn another thing you should have done :) and then you start over, or rewrite part of it.
10:17:41 <I440r> gilbertbsd 99% of all the assembler books out there are SHIT
10:18:02 <Herkamire> a lot of the lessons learned are a bit late :) you usually figure out what you should have done.
10:18:17 <I440r> 4 inches thinck. first 2 inches are on the differences between various assemblers like masm, tasm and spazzum.  the next inch and a half is on hex, binary and octal
10:18:22 <I440r> what does that leave for asm ?
10:18:36 <I440r> just get "the 8086 book, includes the 8088"
10:18:52 <gilbertbsd> from who/where ?
10:19:08 <I440r> from a secondhand bookstore
10:19:16 <I440r> or from amazon
10:19:28 <I440r> you can get out of print books from them
10:19:32 <gilbertbsd> who is the author?
10:20:16 <I440r> isbn 0-931988-29-2
10:20:31 <I440r> authors are russell rector and george alexy
10:21:28 <gilbertbsd> okay I found it.
10:21:57 <gilbertbsd> I am still a little surprised though that there aren't that many advocates of flowcharting.
10:22:09 <I440r> flowcharting is a waste of time :)
10:22:12 <I440r> write it
10:22:13 <I440r> delete it
10:22:15 <I440r> rewrite it
10:22:18 <tathi> yeah
10:22:20 <I440r> that always works for me
10:22:39 <gilbertbsd> but programming is not very different from writing (fiction/nonfiction)
10:22:42 <I440r> take 5 hours to write some function. when you are finished. DELETE IT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
10:22:51 <tathi> one of my favorite quotes (from The Mythical Man-Month) runs something like this...
10:23:00 <I440r> then go drink a cup of coffee, come back and rewrite it all
10:23:01 <gilbertbsd> hey Fred Brooks.
10:23:20 <tathi> "show me your flowcharts, and I'll continue to be mystified. Show me your data structures, and I usually won't need your flowcharts -- they'll be obvious."
10:23:34 <I440r> :)
10:23:49 <gilbertbsd> but flowcharts are available to newbies ... 
10:23:57 <I440r> brb, i readly do need to walk doggies :)
10:24:00 <gilbertbsd> datastructures are very ummm how you say? confounding?
10:25:07 <tathi> well, whatever works for you
10:25:24 <gilbertbsd> how do you explain datastructures to infants?
10:25:57 <tathi> personally I've never seen a flowchart that made sense without spending a lot of time trying to figure it out
10:26:37 <gilbertbsd> they are easy to follow!
10:26:50 <tathi> not for me
10:26:53 <gilbertbsd> all you need is some data!
10:26:59 <gilbertbsd> test data..
10:28:15 <tathi> I find that if I know how your data works, there's usually only one way that makes sense to manipulate it
10:28:31 <tathi> whereas if I have a flowchart, I have to pretend to be a computer and step through it to find out what's going on
10:28:46 <gilbertbsd> voila!
10:29:12 <gilbertbsd> but explain the datastructures approach to me...
10:29:21 <gilbertbsd> I have not encountered that yet.
10:31:25 <gilbertbsd> or if you have a url to point me to...
10:31:47 <tathi> I don't have anything formal...that's just the way I work
10:32:03 <gilbertbsd> and the tutorial?
10:32:58 <tathi> take isforth -- I spent a while trying to read the sources and getting nowhere
10:33:17 <tathi> but once I realized how the headers were laid out, then it all just fell into place
10:33:41 <gilbertbsd> indeed... but do you realise you might have a unique insight that might help a number of people?
10:33:49 <gilbertbsd> newbies to be precise...
10:34:20 <gilbertbsd> a teensy weensy tutorial of some sort ... a write up on how to view and understand basic datastructures perhaps?
10:34:45 <tathi> most programming books I've seen take somewhat this sort of approach, so I assumed it was obvious
10:35:14 <gilbertbsd> so they take the less obvious approach!
10:37:20 <tathi> I guess
10:37:50 <tathi> I've mostly read really beginner programming books -- there _is_ a certain amount of stuff you have to know first
10:38:02 <gilbertbsd> hmmm like what?
10:38:21 <tathi> basic loops, if..then..else, pointers, that kind of thing
10:38:36 <gilbertbsd> those things are easily expressibly with flowcharts.
10:38:46 <gilbertbsd> the other advantage is that it is a diagram...
10:38:50 <gilbertbsd> you see a picture!
10:40:22 <tathi> so maybe data structures _are_ for later on...I do remember being much more interested in how control flowed through a program when I was just starting out
10:40:48 <gilbertbsd> now it would be interesting to see some datastructures expressed as flowcharts.
10:41:01 <gilbertbsd> I should hurry up and start doing that sorta thing.
10:43:16 <tathi> I guess I sort of go back and forth. I take the problem and try and guess at the best way to lay out the data
10:43:34 <tathi> then I go and write code to deal with the data, which often shows up new insights
10:43:53 <tathi> about how to change the structures so that the code can be simpler
10:44:26 <tathi> and so on, bouncing back from code to data until the whole thing is as simple as it should be.
10:44:30 <gilbertbsd> I want to be able to explain things/concepts to newbies ... hence my interest in flowcharts and such.
10:45:08 <tathi> yeah
10:45:31 <tathi> I just don't remember ever liking flowcharts ... but then, I was probably a fairly unusual newbie :)
10:46:05 <gilbertbsd> I learnt python and I have known (at least by syntax) at least 15 languages ...
10:46:17 <gilbertbsd> written that many hello worlds too :D
10:46:26 <gilbertbsd> but the flowcharting stuff is as simple as it gets.
10:46:34 <tathi> heh. Don't think I've *ever* written a hello world program :)
10:46:55 <tathi> my family got our first computer and I immediately started programming in an interpreted basic
10:47:06 <tathi> got bored with that after a month and switched to assembly language
10:47:17 <tathi> haven't looked back since.
10:47:22 <gilbertbsd> you lucky sonofa ...
10:47:33 <tathi> hehe
10:47:41 <gilbertbsd> I was always afraid of assembly until I tried to learn forth...
10:47:58 <gilbertbsd> you guys say it is simple.
10:48:03 <tathi> yeah, seems a lot of people are afraid of it these days
10:48:03 <I440r> it is
10:48:04 <gilbertbsd> it is simple if you know assembler!
10:48:39 <tathi> I'm much more interested in getting people to understand how a computer works, then they can program in whatever language they want
10:48:57 <tathi> assembler is just nice because there's so much less between the programmer and the computer
10:49:09 <tathi> no artificial restrictions
10:49:21 <gilbertbsd> but you need something to hang the information on...
10:49:51 <gilbertbsd> and I find that if you can do flowcharts and pseudocode, you are good to go for a good number of languages including assembler but not APL/J
10:51:31 <tathi> APL is one of those languages developed by mathematicians?
10:51:49 <gilbertbsd> yep. it was developed by the guy who worked with Fred Brooks...
10:52:06 <gilbertbsd> he initially wrote it to describe the ibm 370 hardware.
10:52:25 <gilbertbsd> and they wrote a book together called automatic data processing.
10:52:49 <gilbertbsd> they were both taught by the same professor previously (howard aiken I think).
10:53:04 <gilbertbsd> so APL's first job was to describe hardware.
10:55:33 <gilbertbsd> there is a book by Blaauw and Brooks called Computer Architecture: Concepts and Evolution...
10:55:45 <tathi> oh right
10:55:54 <gilbertbsd> it uses APL to describe ( and simulate) different hardware.
10:56:56 <tathi> I always have trouble wrapping my brain around that kind of language
10:57:12 <gilbertbsd> its not that hard... According to Iverson (the author).
10:57:15 <tathi> I seem to be stuck with giving the computer a sequence of instructions
10:57:24 <tathi> (as opposed to just describing what I want it to do)
10:58:14 <tathi> yeah, everybody says it's not hard, and it looks really neat
10:58:18 <gilbertbsd> ya know, you might wanna take a look at the Blaauw/Brooks book and maybe Automatic Data Processing as well.
10:58:30 <gilbertbsd> BBrooks is the same brooks from Mythical Man-month
10:58:49 <tathi> I'll have to see if I can find them
10:58:56 <gilbertbsd> its on amazon.
10:59:14 <tathi> I'm sure
10:59:46 <gilbertbsd> now if they had the code in some other language, like oh say python I think I would have bought a copy.
10:59:51 <gilbertbsd> APL is a motherf*cker.
11:00:06 <gilbertbsd> realllly neat, but a f*cking motherf*cker.
11:01:27 <tathi> yeah, I keep trying languages...then giving up and going back to Forth :)
11:01:39 <gilbertbsd> I keep going back to python.
11:01:58 <I440r> the devil you know :P
11:02:07 <gilbertbsd> hahaha. Blaauw, Brooks and Iverson were all taught by Howard Aiken.
11:02:21 <gilbertbsd> no wonder they can't stay away from apl.
11:05:57 <tathi> rofl
11:06:01 <tathi> there's a book titled "Writing Solid Code: Microsoft's Techniques for Developing Bug-Free C Programs"
11:06:08 <gilbertbsd> hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
11:06:15 <gilbertbsd> Ah hahahahahahahahaha
11:06:52 <gilbertbsd> is it easy to get asm jobs?
11:07:32 <tathi> no idea -- never tried
11:07:38 <tathi> well, I'm going to go eat lunch...
11:07:48 <gilbertbsd> i440 do you know?
11:08:15 <I440r> therse no such thing as solid c
11:08:19 <I440r> gilbert do i know what ?
11:08:27 <Robert> 20:09 < gilbertbsd> is it easy to get asm jobs?
11:08:30 <gilbertbsd> if asm jobs exist?
11:08:33 <gilbertbsd> ih Robert.
11:08:38 <I440r> no. not any more :(
11:08:57 <gilbertbsd> hmmm. so how can I justify doing nothing but reading asm to my dad without getting a job?
11:09:01 <I440r> they do. but the fucking moronic management want to convert to object oriented shit. even in embedded apps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
11:09:04 <I440r> fucking morons
11:09:22 <Robert> Haha.
11:09:23 <gilbertbsd> what is wrong with o-o?
11:09:27 <Robert> OO for microcontrollers!
11:09:46 <I440r> oop is mutually exsclusive with EVERYTHING
11:10:07 <I440r> ive never seen a case where OOP methods are used where the project didnt take 50 times longer than it needed to
11:10:11 <gilbertbsd> but oop is a very fancy form of modularization.
11:10:12 <I440r> didnt end up 50 times bigger than it needed to
11:10:18 <I440r> and was 50 times slower than it needed to
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11:10:42 <I440r> ive seen companies spend 8 years developing something only to throw it out after 8 years
11:10:50 <I440r> i could have done the whole fucking thing by myself in 3 months
11:10:59 <I440r> WITHOUT no fucking OOP shit
11:11:31 <gilbertbsd> i440 write a proposal to them then.
11:11:45 <I440r> i dont work for them any more.
11:12:01 <gilbertbsd> Ya see, the biggest problem (and why I am afraid to commit to programming) is that good programmers are not always good business men.
11:13:03 <Robert> Hah, I can (a) save money, (b) program :P
11:13:21 <Robert> Note that there is no "get money" :)
11:13:41 <I440r> look in the quotes file in the isforth distro for a quote along those lines gilbert
11:14:17 <gilbertbsd> my dear Robert. If you are ever to purchase a Ferrari, the sort Bill Joy has, you haves ta be a business man.
11:14:50 <gilbertbsd> Uunfortunately the Bill Gates of the world are killing the i440's of the world because they got dough first.
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11:16:08 <I440r> no. because they LIED about the shit and everyone was so fucking moronic they believed them
11:16:09 <I440r> him
11:16:23 <gilbertbsd> but the world is full of Morons!
11:16:32 <I440r> yea
11:16:38 <gilbertbsd> when was the last time you knew of a car buyer who knew exactly what he was buying?
11:16:53 <gilbertbsd> or even a TV buyer, who had an inkling of what was inside the box?
11:17:28 <Robert> Or a programmer, that knew how a computer works?
11:17:35 <gilbertbsd> precisely!
11:17:52 <gilbertbsd> programmers in CS courses are generally told that asm matters no longer!
11:18:06 <gilbertbsd> not all courses mind you... but a good number of them!
11:18:17 <gilbertbsd> c++ and java are the order of the day.
11:18:40 <gilbertbsd> OO and buzzwords fill their vocabulary!
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11:20:22 <Robert> Hooray for Java!
11:20:24 <Robert> Long live VB!
11:20:38 <gilbertbsd> so says the 'free market'... 
11:20:57 <Robert> So say the brainwashed sheeps.
11:20:58 <gilbertbsd> now there is a classic example of how the market does not know best.
11:21:08 <gilbertbsd> <--- economics student.
11:21:11 <Robert> It's a classic example of how bright people are.
11:21:14 <Robert> Hehehe :)
11:22:56 <gilbertbsd> so tell me, do you think there is such a thing as laissez faire ?
11:23:10 <I440r>  brb, playing a game
11:23:14 <I440r> hexen ii :)
11:24:00 * Robert plays Duke Nukem.
11:24:15 <Robert> gilbertbsd: Laissez faire (stupid french) capitalism, that is?
11:24:24 <gilbertbsd> oui oui.
11:24:39 <Robert> Most stupid idea I've ever heard of. You?
11:24:54 <gilbertbsd> It is the thing the 'free world' led by GW Bush, starring Bill Gates and Enron CEO ken lay believe in.
11:25:13 <gilbertbsd> I believe in Anarchy, then again people are toooooo stupid for anarchy to work :(.
11:26:16 <Robert> Not only stupid.
11:26:22 <Robert> Irresponsible(sp?)
11:26:31 <gilbertbsd> Very irresponsible.
11:26:52 <gilbertbsd> Bill Gates will have you believe that VB/ASP is what the people 'demand'.
11:27:10 <gilbertbsd> and the 'market' has spoken.
11:27:24 <gilbertbsd> The Market, as controlled by puppets, has spoken indeed.
11:27:46 <gilbertbsd> now, I gotta aspire to become a puppet master. muhahahahaha.
11:28:33 <Robert> Well, the world is about using other idiocy to be able to control even more peoples idiocy.
11:32:43 <gilbertbsd> hmmmm this is funny. There is a book available on amazon.co.uk but not on amazon.com
11:33:30 <Robert> IT'S BANNED IN THE STATES
11:33:34 <Robert> IT CONTAINS COMMUNISM
11:34:18 <gilbertbsd> perhaps I found a bug.
11:35:06 <gilbertbsd> muhahaha
11:35:46 <Robert> :)
11:37:00 <gilbertbsd> aha. if its not at amazon, try powells.com
11:38:29 <gilbertbsd> hey!!! I can become a copyright breaker!
11:38:45 <gilbertbsd> I  could scan books into digital format for a fee!
11:38:53 <gilbertbsd> Only out of print books.
11:40:47 <Robert> Heh.
11:40:56 <Robert> Someone wanted me to scan the whole fucking Minix book for him.
11:41:09 <Robert> Hmm.. actually, it was serg_penguin in this channel.
11:41:11 <gilbertbsd> the tannenbaum book?
11:41:14 <Robert> Yeah.
11:41:22 <gilbertbsd> but its not out of print yet!
11:41:27 <Robert> So?
11:41:31 <gilbertbsd> the 2 wanted books should be the brodie books.
11:41:37 <gilbertbsd> well, it can be purchased!
11:43:52 <tathi> I'd love to see the book-on-demand thing take off...cut the damn publishers out of the loop
11:44:09 <gilbertbsd> whats the books on demand thing?
11:48:44 <tathi> it's somewhat practical, with a laser printer, to run a "publishing" place that just keeps books on electronic file, and prints and binds them as people order them
11:48:57 <tathi> don't know if it's practical on a large scale
11:49:06 <tathi> I get the impression there's not a good binding method
11:49:12 <gilbertbsd> oh.
11:49:23 <gilbertbsd> ring plastic binders suck.
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11:50:31 <gilbertbsd> hmmm there was a 19 year old company in north carolina called copytron...
11:50:59 <gilbertbsd> it published textbooks cheaply... it was then acquired by booktech.com which went out of business, killing copytron in the process.
11:51:56 <gilbertbsd> IMHO dotcoms suck big time.
11:52:47 <tathi> heh
11:53:08 <tathi> there are some reasonable binding methods
11:54:25 <tathi> but the ones on commercial books will last pretty much forever, which isn't easy or cheap, apparently
11:54:59 <tathi> you want it to last well, I think you have to do the whole sewing pages into signatures and then putting them together into a book
11:55:07 <tathi> which takes expensive machinery
11:55:13 <gilbertbsd> how about cobblers/shoe makers?
11:55:19 <gilbertbsd> and Kinkos? can kinkos do it?
11:55:35 <gilbertbsd> remember ALL This was done by hand a while ago...
11:55:41 <gilbertbsd> by hand... not by machine...
11:55:44 <tathi> yeah, I know one guy who did hand-made books...absolutely gorgeous
11:55:56 <gilbertbsd> in that case.
11:56:31 <tathi> I just wish there was some way to put the big book publishers out of business, given how they screw the authors
11:57:04 <gilbertbsd> they do screw their authors.
11:57:24 <gilbertbsd> paulgraham has re-acquired his two main books and made them available freely on his website.
11:59:05 <tathi> that's cool
11:59:39 <gilbertbsd> I see now what you meant by datastructure whatamacallit.
11:59:42 <tathi> who's he? lisp?
11:59:45 <gilbertbsd> lisp
12:06:31 <I440r> why did they call it "lisp"
12:06:37 <I440r> that sounds so ghey!! heh
12:06:55 <Robert> Heh.
12:07:05 <I440r> shhpeek witssth a lisssp
12:07:05 <Robert> A guy's writing LIMP ;)
12:07:10 <I440r> lol
12:15:51 <tathi> short for LISt Processing language, I think
12:18:48 <Robert> Yes...
12:18:58 <Robert> ()()(((())))()())(())(())()
12:19:07 <Robert> Looks even worse than Forth :)
12:27:14 <I440r> no. worse than brainfuck :P
12:27:59 <Robert> Heh.
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13:14:31 <Chef_> Howdy
13:25:57 <Fractal> Yo.
13:38:56 <I440r> hi
13:40:09 <Fractal> How's life, i440r?
13:42:03 <Fractal> Any cool projects on the go?
13:56:33 <I440r> not right now, im not realy doing much atm :)
13:57:14 <I440r> been working on that dns queries code a little tho
13:57:21 <I440r> but slowly :)
14:03:35 <Fractal> Cool.
14:03:48 <Chef_> And how is your FreeBSD doing? :)
14:04:28 <I440r> got mad at it :)
14:04:53 <Chef_> Is isforth running on it already?
14:04:54 <I440r> pkg_add mc took an hour and then crapped out and wouldnt 'resume' and i had to start again
14:05:06 <I440r> an hour and a half later i just gave up and rebooted
14:05:16 <Chef_> Strange
14:05:28 <I440r> i think it would have taken at least anotothe 2 hours to install mc
14:05:37 <Fractal> Try /usr/ports
14:05:45 <Chef_> Also, strange that someone who likes Forth also uses such a bloated software as mc :)
14:05:53 <Fractal> cd /usr/ports/category/application ; make install
14:06:03 <I440r> heh mc is only bloated because it uses ncurses :P
14:06:37 <I440r> ill try that next time, right now tho i gotta walk doggies and go to walmart and get coffee (a staple :)
14:06:52 <Chef_> mc-4.5.55: 489958 bytes
14:07:06 <Fractal> The hell is mc?
14:07:11 <Chef_> mc-4.5.55: 4849958 bytes
14:07:15 <Chef_> (sorry, missed out a digit)
14:07:18 <I440r> they realy could imprve that pkg_add thing tho
14:07:25 <I440r> like give it teh ability to RESUME!!!!
14:07:34 <Chef_> I440r: install up-to-date /usr/ports, install portupgrade, and play :)
14:07:43 <I440r> and also. it shouldnt be extracting from the tgz until it has ALL of the damned thing
14:07:46 <Fractal> Ya, ports is awesome.
14:07:56 <I440r> this download a bit, extract a bit, download a bit, extract a bit is FUCKED UP!
14:08:18 <Chef_> I440r: nope, it lets you use less disk space
14:08:35 <Fractal> First thing I do on oBSD install: cd /usr/ports/net/BitchX ; make install
14:08:42 <Chef_> Did you ever get an error at "apt-get upgrade" on your Debian box because of missing room in /var/cache/apt?
14:08:55 <Fractal> Chef_ : Do apt-get clean
14:08:57 <Chef_> BitchX? X-Chat rulez
14:09:06 <I440r> chef_ yea. well they dont give a fuck about saving disk space when they write 24039857623478652 gig tic tac to programs, they have the mentality "bah, everyone has 239846723849659238 gigs of drive space"
14:09:10 <Chef_> Fractal: it only removes old packages, that have been installed
14:09:23 <Chef_> Fractal: if you haven't upgraded for months, apt-get dist-upgrade will need a lotta space
14:09:27 <I440r> bbl, gotta go buy coffee: )
14:09:38 <Fractal> Oh I see what you're saying... Hmmm..
14:10:16 <Fractal> Ya, people love apt-get, but I find it has some serious problems.
14:10:26 <Chef_> Fractal: aptitude is supposed to have them fixed
14:10:37 <Chef_> But it looks like more as dselect to me
14:10:55 <Fractal> For instance, I find that if you somehow screw up the package system, you may as well just reinstall from scratch cause you're never gonna fix it. :)
14:11:16 <Fractal> Ya, I've heard of aptitude before... Be interesting to try it.
14:11:35 <Chef_> Fractal: no, just remove apt files and that's OK
14:11:57 <Chef_> Fractal: I've screwed the system more than once (being a Sparc tester, using only unstable), and never had to reinstall everything
14:12:02 <Chef_> (well, almost everything, I admit :-)
14:12:31 <Chef_> Damn, this Buffy is so long to download...
14:12:33 <Fractal> Ah yes, sparc port. How's that coming?
14:12:55 <Fractal> I use m68k a lot, and it's coming along alright. Slow but steady.
14:12:55 <Chef_> It has been working fine for me in production (yeah, on unstable) for several years
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15:41:16 <onetom> Chef_: 2k limit? ;)
15:41:30 <onetom> b back in an hour
15:46:09 <Chef_> onetom: I already introduced the data banks yesterday :-)
15:46:29 <Chef_> onetom: I had the RAM explode before the flash
15:50:20 <Chef_> Back in 8 hours
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19:44:57 <bugslayer> who wants to be hired to code forth and thinks that "ansi forth is a different language by the same name"?  
19:45:13 <bugslayer> i.e. it is a requirement to be an ansi forth hater to get hired to code forth
19:45:28 <bugslayer> so who wants to be paid to code forth? :P
19:47:30 <XeF4> what needs to be coded?
19:48:35 <bugslayer> everything
19:50:47 <XeF4> I wouldn't mind being hired to code forth on an interesting project, no.
19:50:48 <Herkamire> all of us?
19:51:25 <Herkamire> ok probably not. 
19:51:27 <Herkamire> I would though
19:51:28 <bugslayer> well how many forthers are there that prefer chuck's forth to ansi forth?    comp.lang.forth is dominated by ansi forthers..
19:51:39 <bugslayer> herkamire: you would mind?
19:52:11 <Herkamire> mind?! you're talking about paying me to write colorforth? hell no :)
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19:52:55 <XeF4> Chuck has so many forths
19:53:26 <Herkamire> bugslayer: you're futhin aren't you? would you quit changing your nick
19:53:39 <bugslayer> heh
19:53:46 <bugslayer> no i'm actually thin
19:53:53 <bugslayer> this is just my temp nick
19:53:59 <bugslayer> because i'm hiding from #forth
19:54:09 <bugslayer> i haven't been around for awhile :P
19:54:59 <tathi> yes, we noticed :)
19:55:48 <tathi> it's been much less weird around here :P
19:55:50 <Herkamire> futhin: are you loosing faith?
19:55:54 <bugslayer> nope
19:56:11 <bugslayer> i just end up preaching too much on #forth instead of coding forth
19:56:11 <tathi> without you to talk about riding in futuristic organic green blob-type vehicles and such :)
19:56:20 <bugslayer> ooh! you remembered! :D
19:56:27 <Herkamire> lately we've had to resort to making fun of I440r ;)
19:56:36 <bugslayer> heh
19:56:39 <bugslayer> about what? :P
19:57:15 <tathi> so have you been actually coding forth lately?
19:57:22 <bugslayer> nope
19:57:22 <bugslayer> heh
19:57:27 <Herkamire> lol
19:57:37 <bugslayer> right now i'm busy trying to make some money  and going to school
19:57:42 <bugslayer> having trouble finding a part-time job
19:57:50 <bugslayer> and i'm really tight on cash
19:58:00 <bugslayer> plus i'm moving in december
19:58:02 <bugslayer> leaving calgary
19:58:20 <tathi> ah
19:58:28 <tathi> that'll do it
19:58:47 <bugslayer> yeah :/
19:58:51 <tathi> I know I got about zero coding done when I was trying to do school and work at the same time
19:59:02 <bugslayer> and i'm supposed to be helping out i440r with isforth
19:59:10 <bugslayer> because then he'll help me out with the forthmud
19:59:18 <tathi> how so?
19:59:22 <bugslayer> (which i'm supposed to code in isforth, so i need sockets and crap)
19:59:22 <tathi> you have BSD?
19:59:24 <bugslayer> no
19:59:28 <bugslayer> linux
19:59:39 <bugslayer> a few weeks ago i was raring to go with the mud
19:59:43 <bugslayer> then i talked to i440r
19:59:51 <bugslayer> and ended up getting suckered into doing his documentation first ;P
19:59:57 <tathi> heh
20:00:03 <tathi> I remember him saying something about that
20:00:08 <bugslayer> but he'll help me with the mud
20:00:18 <tathi> cool cool
20:00:21 <bugslayer> cause i really haven't coded forth, and i'm too much of a perfectionist :/
20:00:30 <tathi> :)
20:00:34 <bugslayer> <-- is a fuckin` gay perfectionist!
20:00:40 <bugslayer> kill all the perfectionists!
20:00:45 <tathi> yeah, I keep getting distracted by rewriting my forth engine again and again
20:00:47 <tathi> and again
20:00:50 <bugslayer> heh
20:01:15 <tathi> I actually did write a fair amount of code in forth for a week or so
20:01:58 <Herkamire> futhin: just re-write your mud a buch of times and I'm sure you can get it pretty good
20:02:21 <bugslayer> yeah
20:02:27 <bugslayer> but i'm lame like that
20:02:31 <bugslayer> well
20:02:35 <bugslayer> i can do that
20:02:42 <bugslayer> but first i need a database ;P
20:02:57 <bugslayer> and that's where i get stopped cold
20:03:06 <bugslayer> i did code a mini mud
20:03:08 <bugslayer> with like 4 rooms
20:03:12 <bugslayer> but no database was involved
20:05:10 <bugslayer> so a)  procrastinate on making some ugly database code since i wouldn't know how to properly use CREATE DOES>  b) procrastinate on isforth documentation, and then procrastinate on the mud c) wait for Starting Forth to become available at the library (i've place it on hold and it's been holding for WEEKS and i'm the only one on the waitlist)
20:05:23 <bugslayer> procrastinating takes skill!
20:05:26 <bugslayer> and daring!
20:05:28 <bugslayer> and courage!
20:05:39 <bugslayer> you don't just want to procrastinate on the actual task!
20:05:41 <bugslayer> first!
20:05:48 <bugslayer> make the task contingent on some other task!
20:05:51 <bugslayer> like isforth documentation
20:05:56 <bugslayer> then procrastinate on that!
20:07:02 <bugslayer> whee!
20:07:02 <tathi> hehe
20:07:02 <bugslayer> and think in exclamation marks!
20:07:02 <bugslayer> tathi: what do you think?
20:07:02 <bugslayer> gimme some profound advice ;P
20:07:02 <bugslayer> does anybody here ever procrastinate?
20:07:02 <bugslayer> and as much as i do?
20:07:02 <bugslayer> :P
20:07:33 <tathi> dunno
20:07:39 <tathi> certainly used to at school
20:07:45 <tathi> I'm getting better
20:08:11 <Herkamire> procrastination is the root of all evil
20:08:18 <Herkamire> or... lazyness at least
20:09:00 <bugslayer> well procrastination is where you actually want to do something but you don't
20:09:09 <bugslayer> and laziness is where you are really apathetic about doing anything at all
20:09:28 <Herkamire> laziness is when you should, but you don't.
20:09:45 <Herkamire> I really do care about the kitchen being clean for example
20:09:56 <bugslayer> heh
20:10:00 <bugslayer> the kitchen!
20:10:01 <Herkamire> ...not enough aparently
20:10:04 <bugslayer> it all comes back to the kitchen!
20:10:11 <bugslayer> actually
20:10:22 <bugslayer> if i only have 1 bowl, 1 plate, 1 spoon, 1 fork, 1 knife
20:10:28 <bugslayer> then it doesn't get too dirty
20:10:36 * bugslayer coughs..
20:10:41 <Herkamire> bloody things, kitchens. they should all come with a dishwasher, a drain in the floor and a hose with a spray nozzle (bathrooms too, except without the dishwasher)
20:10:47 <bugslayer> heh
20:11:02 <bugslayer> dishwasher in the bathroom is a good idea
20:11:08 <Herkamire> ok, maybe it's not practical for a kitchen
20:11:14 <bugslayer> except it would be more of an instant-clothes-washer-and-dryer
20:11:22 <Herkamire> but entire bathrooms should be waterproof with a drain.
20:11:33 <bugslayer> so you throw your pants in, climb in the shower, when you get out, the clothes are fresh and ready for ya
20:11:44 <bugslayer> then you'll be able to wear 1 pair of clothes without worry ;P
20:12:04 <Herkamire> they'd be all wet though
20:12:40 <Herkamire> maybe we could learn a thing or two from the japanese, and have a seperate room for bathing
20:12:41 <bugslayer> -and-dryer
20:12:51 <Herkamire> the dryer takes an hour
20:13:38 <bugslayer> instant-
20:13:51 <bugslayer> haven't you heard of the microwave dryer?
20:13:57 <Herkamire> heh :)
20:14:07 <bugslayer> featured in scientific american or discovery or some such magazine
20:14:09 <Herkamire> I was just going to say something about microwaves.
20:14:28 <Herkamire> is someone manufacturing them?
20:14:30 <bugslayer> well there actually _is_ a way to dry clothes with microwaves safely
20:14:43 <bugslayer> i don't know why nobody appears to be manufacturing them
20:14:52 <bugslayer> they were featured in some magazine...
20:15:02 <bugslayer> maybe lack of funding or technological problems
20:15:05 <bugslayer> safety problems etc
20:15:14 <bugslayer> what if the cat gets in the driyer? :P
20:15:21 <bugslayer> dryer*
20:15:29 <XeF4> bugs: does it dry them any faster than usual?
20:16:00 <XeF4> it's possible to dry clothes in a vaccum chamber, I don't know why noone is marketing vaccum dryers
20:16:06 <tathi> bah! what if a cat gets caught in a regular dryer?
20:16:26 <XeF4> chances are it won't explode anyway.
20:16:29 <Herkamire> heh :)
20:17:08 <Herkamire> I asume there are technical problems with a microwave dryer, such as what happens when you leave your keys or creditcards in your pants by accedent
20:18:45 <XeF4> and I doubt it would work all that well, since the efficiency would drop with the amount of moisture in the clothes
20:19:29 <bugslayer> xef4: yeah, i remember they were faster and less damaging to the textiles
20:19:32 <Herkamire> are you sure they wouldn't freez?
20:19:57 <XeF4> bugs: drying in a vaccum chamber doesn't damage (most) textiles
20:20:14 <bugslayer> probably not, but that would be much more expensive
20:23:28 <XeF4> you could probably build one for <$1000
20:24:18 <bugslayer> how do you create the vaccum?  i don't imagine a fan would be enough?
20:24:31 <XeF4> pump
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20:30:47 <XeF4> not that I use dryers anyway
20:31:26 <Herkamire> I like the wood stove + clothes line aproach
20:31:34 <Herkamire> not that I've bothered with that much.
20:31:44 <Herkamire> I liked it when my mommy did the laundry :) :)
20:31:55 <bugslayer> heh
20:32:59 <bugslayer> i'm waiting for the 1 piece super endurable suit that keeps you warm in the winter, cool in the summer, has a zillion pockets, and lets you distribute weight throughout it evenly so that when you go hiking in the mountains, you don't need some big gay backpack
20:33:09 <bugslayer> and it acts as a sleeping bag/tent
20:33:13 <bugslayer> you just lie down in it
20:33:15 <bugslayer> and go to sleep
20:33:21 <bugslayer> oh, and padding
20:33:24 <bugslayer> and springs on the shoes
20:33:40 <bugslayer> it'll convert me into a superhuman!!
20:33:41 <bugslayer> :P
20:34:15 <Herkamire> futhin: ever tried spring shoes?
20:34:19 <bugslayer> nope
20:34:32 <Herkamire> they really don't help you get around :)
20:34:36 <Herkamire> amusing though
20:34:43 <bugslayer> need more exoskeleton technology
20:34:45 <bugslayer> umm
20:34:48 <bugslayer> depends on the springs
20:34:50 <bugslayer> and the set up
20:35:07 <Herkamire> oh it could work I suppose
20:35:16 <bugslayer> if they are properly made, i imagine the running in spring shoes would be a lot more fun  (longer string w/ less effort = more fun)
20:36:13 <XeF4> my backpack is asexual, so I don't need to worry about it getting distracted with other backpacks
20:36:58 <Herkamire> I have my doubts about springs actually helping you get anywhere easier/faster. but I'm sure it'd be fun to play with
20:37:16 <XeF4> bugs: I have a jacket like that, btw (picked it up from a Mil. surplus when I was in the US)
20:37:58 <Herkamire> XeF4: your jacket works as a tent?
20:38:15 <XeF4> Herk: not optimally, but I've slept in it quite a few times
20:38:29 <XeF4> if you don't believe me, just get close to it an take a whiff :)
20:39:38 <Herkamire> ok, fine I'll write an XML parser
20:39:55 <Herkamire> my jabber client will only be so good without one.
20:40:24 <bugslayer> i pass on the whiff
20:40:40 <bugslayer> i downloaded 15 jabber clients once
20:40:42 <bugslayer> for windows
20:40:52 <Herkamire> I'd like to program a robot to bounce around on one pogostick-like leg.
20:40:53 <bugslayer> and couldn't get any of them to work satisfactorily with irc
20:40:58 <bugslayer> so i got rid of them all
20:41:04 <bugslayer> jabber sucks! :P
20:41:08 <bugslayer> (until i figure it out)
20:41:17 <Herkamire> why would you want it to do irc?
20:41:32 <Herkamire> when was this?
20:41:41 <Herkamire> did the server even support irc properly?
20:42:01 <bugslayer> well i wanted irc and icq
20:42:10 <bugslayer> and i do remember jabber supporting irc or something..
20:42:13 <Herkamire> when I was trying jabber clients the irc was still experimental on the server end
20:44:19 <Herkamire> I will probably want to use irc and jabber through the same program at some point, but I'd rather not have my irc communication routed through a jabber server.
20:44:32 <bugslayer> what about icq?  how well does jabber support icq?
20:45:06 <Herkamire> I don't know.
20:45:17 <Herkamire> none of my friends seem to use icq anymore
20:45:24 <bugslayer> so what the hell do you use jabber for?
20:45:29 <bugslayer> hm, all my friends use icq
20:45:38 <Herkamire> nothing currently
20:45:48 <bugslayer> yay! :P
20:46:01 <Herkamire> I hope to be able to use it for aim, especially when I start using fpos as an OS
20:46:19 <Herkamire> and so I can tell my friends to use jabber
20:46:39 <bugslayer> i was surprised when i discovered most of #linuxwarez people use aim..  isn't aim really lame? (and that rhymes too) :P
20:47:05 <Herkamire> it's great in theory, but I don't know how good the clients are (I know there's a bunch of crappy ones) and I'm don't know how alive the server project is.
20:47:31 <Herkamire> futhin: there's not much difference between aim and icq.
20:47:56 <bugslayer> aim is lame!
20:47:58 <bugslayer> period! :P
20:48:00 <bugslayer> jk
20:48:28 <Herkamire> The only major difference than I know of is that with ICQ you can send someone a message even if they're offline (and the server will hold it for them until they come on)
20:49:07 <Herkamire> futhin: what's the diff? they are both AOL. they are both proprietary. The legal clients for both suck.
20:50:14 <Herkamire> we need an open free alternative that does not rely on a single server. (like jabber.)
20:50:37 <Herkamire> It doesn't have to Be jabber
20:55:57 <bugslayer> jabber seems sucky
20:56:06 <bugslayer> there should be something else
20:56:11 <bugslayer> jabber seems wayyy too bulky
20:56:13 <Herkamire> what don't you like
20:56:17 <bugslayer> and the model seems fucked i dunno
20:56:22 <Herkamire> XML?
20:56:36 <bugslayer> what's with the server-side handling the icq/aim/irc transactions
20:56:50 <bugslayer> why not just leave that crap client side or some gay shit :P
20:56:55 <bugslayer> what about security?
20:57:55 <Herkamire> what about security? jabber has excelent security.
20:58:17 <Herkamire> you can have your link to the server encrypted
20:58:24 <bugslayer> i am ignorant! :D
20:58:32 <bugslayer> don't worry
20:58:34 <bugslayer> i'm just blithering
20:58:39 <bugslayer> because of the 15 clients i downloaded
20:58:50 <bugslayer> and they didn't do what i wanted..
20:58:54 <bugslayer> i think i was setting them up for icq
20:58:56 <Herkamire> I agree that at least most of the clients suck bigtime
20:59:03 <bugslayer> but couldn't get them to do it properly or something
20:59:12 <bugslayer> they were HELL to configure
20:59:14 <bugslayer> ..
20:59:32 <Herkamire> yep. and most don't let you register for aim/icq/etc.
21:00:01 <Herkamire> last time I tried gabber, it actually worked. and was pretty easy to setup.
21:00:10 <Herkamire> I didn't try setting up icq though.
21:00:28 <Herkamire> the only problem with jabber that I know of is the clients.
21:00:40 <Herkamire> I'm making a good text-based client
21:01:16 <Herkamire> for linux
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21:30:13 <bugslayer> hi rk, look at all the idlers here..  but during the day we're more active
21:30:53 <rk> bugslayer: i like forth
21:48:02 <onetom> yesss! ;)
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.10.23