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01:59:01 <Serg_Penguin> re
02:03:25 <Klaw> is there a forth sapi plugin?
02:03:28 <Klaw> sapi sapi
02:03:34 <Klaw> i was thinking forth and thttpd would make a nice pair
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10:16:03 <I440r> anyone awake ?
10:16:54 * Robert !
10:17:22 <I440r> heh 
10:17:25 <I440r> do you know fbsd ?
10:17:36 <I440r> i mighta knnown you were here :P
10:17:36 <Robert> Nope.
10:17:37 <I440r> heh
10:17:41 <I440r> me either :P
10:17:42 <Robert> Never used it.
10:17:43 <Robert> Hehe.
10:17:53 <Robert> I've only used NetBSD of the BSDs...
10:17:53 <I440r> its not letting me create the file system partitions :(
10:18:01 <Robert> But I'll replace it with fbsd soon.
10:18:05 <Robert> Heh.
10:18:09 <Robert> Bad BSD :P
10:22:09 <Chef_> I440r: looking for help on FreeBSD?
10:23:07 <I440r> yea im in #freebsd now :) heh
10:23:14 <I440r> i cant seem to create /
10:23:19 <Chef_> Eheheh :)))
10:23:21 <I440r> its giving me "too big?" 
10:23:28 <I440r> no matter HOW big i make it heh
10:23:43 <I440r> i USED to have three partitions
10:23:53 <I440r> first was windows. next linux swap. then linux
10:24:06 <I440r> i used fips to break off a piece of the winedows partition for fbsd
10:24:21 <I440r> ad0s4 its calling it
10:24:39 <Chef_> How does it report your disk geometry?
10:26:02 <I440r> where do i find out
10:26:32 <Chef_> Boot FreeBSD
10:26:35 <Chef_> (from a CD, floppy, etc.)
10:26:49 <I440r> booting from a cd. want me to reboot ?
10:26:58 <I440r> i wont need to leave here, its a different box :)
10:27:13 <Chef_> If you can open a shell, try "dmesg"
10:27:38 <I440r> i didnt see anuy options to open a shell
10:27:43 <I440r> im rebooting
10:27:50 <Chef_> There is an option in the installer
10:28:10 <Chef_> But compare what it says about your disk geometry
10:28:11 <I440r> i didnt get that far then hhe
10:28:15 <Chef_> with what Linux says
10:30:07 <I440r> ad0: 28629MB <WDC WD300BB-00AUA1> [58168/16/63] at ata0-master UDMA66
10:30:18 <I440r> now ill boot linux and see what IT says
10:30:39 <Chef_> Yup. And then you can choose your geometry while doing the / partition in the installer
10:31:19 <I440r> CHOOSE the geometry ?
10:31:35 <Chef_> Yup, you can have different parameters resulting in the same space
10:32:24 <Chef_> Your drive is recent enough (given its size) so that it can accept different virtual mappings
10:32:56 <I440r> fuck linux gives the fuckig SECTOR count, heh
10:33:14 <I440r> 30020 MB
10:33:34 <Chef_> What FreeBSD are you installing? 4.7?
10:33:41 <I440r> latest
10:33:51 <I440r> i forget the exact one heh 
10:33:57 <I440r> ill find out :)
10:34:00 <Chef_> Ok, I guess it is the latest stable (4.7)
10:34:06 <Chef_> Do you boot from the CD?
10:34:12 <I440r> yes
10:35:12 <I440r> fuck, i KNOW theres a key i can press to select what device to boot to without going into the bios but i cant remember what it is heh
10:35:34 <Chef_> In general, F2, F11 or F12
10:35:34 <I440r> rebooting to cd
10:35:45 <I440r> on my laptop its escape
10:36:11 <I440r> i thunked it was f9 on this one but thats prolly what it is on the server
10:36:19 <I440r> its 4.6 iot says
10:36:57 <I440r> how long ago was 4.7 released ?
10:37:03 <I440r> i only just downloaded these images
10:37:29 <Chef_> Less than one month ago
10:38:17 <I440r> hrm i think these were downloaded a little over a month ago now that i think about it, my father downloaded them at work and wasnt able to write them to the cd's immediatly
10:38:23 <I440r> had higher priorities heh
10:38:35 <I440r> ok. im going into standard installation
10:38:50 <I440r> ive not configured the kernel, i wouldnt know what i was doing
10:39:03 <I440r> im also not going into the "options" menu
10:39:31 <I440r> its taken me into the FIRST part of the fdisk (fbsd's fdisk menthodology is fucked in the head i think")
10:39:36 <Chef_> Just choose your keymap if needed, and create your FreeBSD slice
10:39:42 <Chef_> No, others are
10:40:09 <I440r> type ads04 is of UNKNOWN type. ill retype it to type 165 yes ?
10:40:16 <I440r> that makes it fbsd
10:40:35 <Chef_> You mean ad0s4 I think
10:40:39 <Chef_> Yup, retype it
10:40:44 <I440r> what will the G option do? (set drive geometry)
10:40:52 <Chef_> It may fix your problems
10:40:59 <Chef_> But you have to know what you will put in there :)
10:41:01 <I440r> if i try changing the drive geometry will it fuck up my other partitions ? heh
10:41:08 <Chef_> No, it should not
10:41:12 <Chef_> Anyway, it won't write anything yet
10:41:37 <I440r> ok ill select option G and see what i see :)
10:42:00 <I440r> ok its giving me 3649/255/63 now
10:42:42 <I440r>  [58168/16/63]  <-- physical --- logical --> 3649/255/63
10:42:44 <I440r> yes ?
10:43:31 <Chef_> Yup
10:44:06 <I440r> ok. if i CHANGE whats in there now will that remap the geometry for ALL partitions or just the fbsd partition?
10:44:24 <I440r> i realy dont want to go pulling the rug out from under the 98 or linux partitions heh
10:44:26 <Chef_> That does not change anything on your drive, only in the parameters that will be used for FreeBSD
10:44:35 <I440r> aha ok :))
10:44:48 <I440r> so what geometry would YOU suggest i try :)
10:44:49 <Chef_> It will be used to create the so-called disklabel
10:45:06 <Chef_> I don't know, pick what you want, such as the physical one, if it accepts it
10:45:18 <Chef_> But I don't see why the current one would not work
10:45:52 <I440r> will it let me change these to some totally bogus values ?
10:45:58 <I440r> and then refuse to work ? heh
10:45:58 <Chef_> Probably
10:46:34 <I440r> ill leave them as is for now and explore elsewhere, it might not be my problem :)
10:46:43 <I440r> but ill keep it in mind for later if nothing else works
10:46:57 <Chef_> If nothing else work, go in your BIOS and choose "LBA mode" for your disk
10:47:38 <I440r> ok. im back in the main menu. the fbsd partition is selected (highlighted).
10:47:58 <Chef_> Ok, choose automatic mode for creating partitions (just to test)
10:48:01 <I440r> do i do C to create slice now? (do i also need to make the slice bootable?)
10:48:12 <Chef_> no, no need to make it bootable
10:48:20 <Chef_> (only older Microsoft systems need this flag)
10:48:43 <I440r> its saying "slice in use. delete it first of move to an unused one.
10:48:47 <I440r> OOOH. i get it
10:48:50 <Chef_> :)))
10:48:51 <I440r> i think
10:48:57 <I440r> i think im finished in this menu
10:49:20 <I440r> ive created the PARTITION. but ive not sliced it up yet
10:49:32 <I440r> does that mean fbsd uses logical partitions ?
10:49:39 <I440r> how do i write this out ?
10:49:50 <Chef_> Yes
10:50:26 <Chef_> I have to leave now and go home, I'll probably reconnect from here
10:51:05 <I440r> ok
10:51:08 <I440r> from there ?
10:51:11 <I440r> you mean heh
10:51:14 <I440r> cu l8er dood
10:51:21 <I440r> im not installing a boot manager.
10:51:26 <I440r> ill use lilo :P
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10:51:56 <I440r> erm it allowed me to create the / slice heh
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11:04:13 <gilbertbsd> hullo
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11:31:32 <gilbertbsd> i440
11:31:34 <gilbertbsd> you there?
11:39:22 <gilbertbsd> anyone up?
11:42:28 * Robert !
11:42:38 <gilbertbsd>  hehe
11:42:44 <gilbertbsd> I couldn't find the file ...]
11:43:34 <Robert> http://robert.zizi.org/pub/projects/forth/nano4th.tgz
11:43:52 <gilbertbsd> okay thanks.
11:44:05 <gilbertbsd> I have an asm/nasm question... really simple.
11:44:14 <gilbertbsd> <---- toothless newbie
11:44:22 <Robert> Yes?
11:44:33 <gilbertbsd> when you create a label like so...
11:44:47 <gilbertbsd> label1 db "this is a label" , 0
11:45:00 <gilbertbsd> how much space does db create ... and where does it store the string?
11:45:09 <Robert> In the .data section.
11:45:18 <Robert> It creates the space the string requires.
11:45:25 <gilbertbsd> so it is dynamic?
11:45:51 <Robert> Uh?
11:46:08 <gilbertbsd> isn't 'b' = byte = 8 bits?
11:46:15 <Robert> Yes.
11:46:30 <gilbertbsd> 8 bits means 8 spaces right?
11:47:10 <Robert> "spaces"?
11:47:25 <gilbertbsd> 8 'boxes'/slots whatever you want to call it.
11:47:30 <gilbertbsd> but it is 8 right?
11:48:22 <Robert> Yes.
11:48:30 <Robert> One bit = a logical 1/0.
11:48:41 <gilbertbsd> but the string in quotes is longer than 8 characters.
11:49:16 <gilbertbsd> and I have to do something like mov eax, [label1]
11:50:02 <Robert> You use pointers.
11:50:07 <gilbertbsd> who?
11:50:12 <I440r> hi
11:50:14 <gilbertbsd> and to where?
11:50:14 <Robert> Erm
11:50:16 <Robert> Everyone does.
11:50:18 <Robert> Heh.
11:50:19 <Robert> Well...
11:50:22 <Robert> To the string.
11:50:22 <I440r> gilbert i just installed bsd :)
11:50:32 <Robert> mov eax,label1
11:50:33 <gilbertbsd> really? does isforth run on it?
11:50:37 <I440r> ill work on getting a bsd version of isforth soon
11:50:39 <Robert> Now eax _points_ to label1
11:50:51 <I440r> no, i just installed so far, not even booted to it yetn heh
11:50:52 <gilbertbsd> but I said mov eax, [label1]
11:50:57 <gilbertbsd> not mov eax, label1
11:51:18 <I440r> mov eax, [label1] moves the contents of the memory address into eax
11:51:19 <gilbertbsd> i440 is isforth still in nasm?
11:51:36 <I440r> mov eax, label1 moves the address offset into eax
11:51:40 <I440r> yes still nasm. 
11:51:57 <gilbertbsd> goody... url for the sources? I am trying to learn nasm :)
11:52:02 <gilbertbsd> I have given up on forth :D
11:53:54 <Robert> Heh.
11:54:07 <I440r> isforth.clss.net
11:54:07 <Robert> isforth.clss.net would teach you some NASM :P
11:54:11 <Robert> Hah!
11:54:21 <Robert> Telepathy :P
11:54:23 <gilbertbsd> ah okay.
11:54:38 <gilbertbsd> can i run it under windows?
11:54:42 <I440r> no heh
11:54:47 <gilbertbsd> my bsd box is no where to be found :(
11:55:13 <I440r> stolen ???
11:55:23 <gilbertbsd> no. its in Ohio and I am in florida.
11:55:23 <Robert> Looked under your bed?
11:55:30 <Robert> Oh.
11:55:30 <gilbertbsd> hehe.
11:55:42 <gilbertbsd> its 1700 miles away .
11:55:51 <Robert> RUN FAST
11:55:58 <I440r> heh
11:56:04 <gilbertbsd> I have an exam at 6pm. 
11:56:27 <gilbertbsd> i wouldn't make it.
11:57:30 <gilbertbsd> i440 i was trying to understand where nasm stores something like ... "label db "Enter at your own peril", 0
11:58:45 <Robert> Data section of the executable.
11:59:08 <gilbertbsd> so it just sits there?
12:00:08 <gilbertbsd> brb
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12:00:45 <I440r> robert it doesnt store it in the .data section
12:00:49 <Robert> No?
12:00:55 <I440r> it stores it in what ever section is currently being assembled to
12:01:00 <Robert> Well, duh...
12:01:09 <Robert> You usually put it in the .data section :P
12:01:21 <Robert> Except in DOS, where I put everything in .text
12:01:59 <I440r> YOU usually put it in .data - i put it in .text :P
12:02:14 <I440r> the x86 is NOT a fucking harvard architecture device
12:02:38 <I440r> dammit :P
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12:04:24 <gilbertbsd> back
12:06:26 <I440r> gilbert why dont you install linux ??
12:06:37 <I440r> you can be gilbertlinux :)
12:06:51 <gilbertbsd> hehe. 
12:06:56 <gilbertbsd> I don't have a box at all.
12:07:28 <I440r> install linux on all the university machines }:)
12:07:50 <Robert> Heh.
12:07:54 <gilbertbsd> they will weep.
12:07:57 <gilbertbsd> and they will wail
12:08:03 <gilbertbsd> and they will ask for their mummy
12:08:33 <I440r> :))
12:08:42 <I440r> but then you could install isforth and they would love you :)
12:09:08 <gilbertbsd> hehehe.
12:09:11 <gilbertbsd> riiiight.
12:09:22 <gilbertbsd> I am only d/l isforth because I wanna read the asm code.
12:09:30 <gilbertbsd> I don't understand forth AT ALL!
12:10:27 <I440r> heh
12:10:33 <I440r> learn asm first
12:10:39 <I440r> will make learning forth alot easier
12:10:54 <gilbertbsd> see? thats what I am trying to do.
12:11:00 <Robert> Good boy =)
12:11:05 <gilbertbsd> so where is the source?
12:11:10 <gilbertbsd> oh I see it. n/m
12:12:26 <I440r> :)
12:13:03 <gilbertbsd> so which should i start examining
12:13:58 <I440r> hmm. well pick one. there are alot of very small functions in there.
12:14:11 <I440r> if you see one you dont understand just ignore it and move onto something else
12:14:11 <I440r> its all fully commented tho
12:14:34 <I440r> i would suggest looking in math.1 and stack.1 etc
12:16:14 <gilbertbsd> what about isforth.asm 
12:17:05 <I440r> you can look in there but theres not much in there
12:17:22 <I440r> well, theres SOME :)
12:20:18 <gilbertbsd> what is 'code' ?
12:21:02 <I440r> a macro
12:21:07 <I440r> so is 'colon'
12:22:13 <gilbertbsd> your own macro or nasm's macro?
12:23:33 <gilbertbsd> i440 you there?
12:25:54 <gilbertbsd> am I still online?
12:30:56 <TreyB> gilbertbsd: I see your posts.
12:33:58 <I440r> sorry yea im here :)
12:34:25 <I440r> im trying to download an older version of lilo because debian ppl have fucked all over the newer versions
12:34:28 <gilbertbsd> ah good. thanks treyb.
12:34:30 <I440r> i dont want a fucking lame ass MENU 
12:34:35 <I440r> i want a fucking lilo PROMPT
12:34:55 <gilbertbsd> what you really want is what freebsd gives you: a forth prompt!
12:36:44 <gilbertbsd> what are the minimum files needed?
12:37:05 <gilbertbsd> that is to get a complete forth with the sources you have?
12:38:42 <I440r> everything in the asmsrc directory (soon to be renamed to the kernel directory
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12:39:17 <gilbertbsd> what about the things in the forthsrc ?
12:39:20 <gilbertbsd> what are those?
12:40:35 <Herkamire> hello all
12:40:39 <gilbertbsd> hi keramire
12:40:42 <gilbertbsd> oops.
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12:52:54 <I440r> how the fuck do you list the routing tables in bsd ?
12:53:06 <I440r> route -n doenst fucking work
12:53:11 <I440r> fucking fbsd is fucked in the head
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12:54:45 <gilbert_bsd> shoo ghost shoo.
12:54:54 <gilbert_bsd> does anyone here read nasm?
12:55:10 <gilbert_bsd> or is any one familiar with isforths nasm code?
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12:55:55 <gilbert_bsd> ah there you are.
12:57:34 <gilbert_bsd> quick question i440
12:57:51 <I440r> gilbert how do i LIST the fucking routing tables in fbsd ?
12:58:11 <gilbert_bsd> routing tables? ifconfig
12:58:12 <gilbert_bsd> :D
12:59:11 <gilbert_bsd> my question now.
12:59:22 <gilbert_bsd> where is the read-eval-print loop code?
13:00:04 <I440r> its in the compiler.1 file
13:00:10 <I440r> key and emit are in io.1
13:00:22 <I440r> query and expect are in compile.1 
13:00:29 <gilbert_bsd> okay.
13:00:29 <I440r> the interpret loop is also in there
13:00:36 <gilbert_bsd> thanks.
13:01:48 <Herkamire> you guys heard of http://www.linuxfund.org/ ?
13:02:09 <gilbert_bsd> nope
13:02:14 <Herkamire> check out the FAQ, they have a linux mastercard :)
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13:02:48 <Chef_> I440r, have you installed FreeBSD now?
13:03:09 <I440r> yes
13:03:15 <I440r> but i cant get it to see my gateway server
13:03:22 <Chef_> What do you mean?
13:03:26 <I440r> im thinking its a routing problem
13:03:35 <I440r> ping 192.168.1.1 
13:03:39 <I440r> 100% packet loss
13:03:50 <Chef_> What is the address on your interface?
13:03:55 <I440r> netstat -rn seems to list the right routs tho (from what i can tell)
13:04:10 <I440r> default is 192.168.1.1
13:04:15 <I440r> lo is in there
13:04:22 <Chef_> What is the address on your interface?
13:04:31 <I440r> netstat -rn shows 192.168.1.1 and its MAC address
13:04:51 <I440r> the fbsd's box is on 192.168.1.4 and it shows that in there with ITS mac address too
13:04:59 <I440r> but i also have a route to
13:05:00 <I440r> 192.168.1
13:05:14 <I440r> which im assuming is a truncated 192.168.1.0
13:05:16 <Chef_> Any change that you have activated a firewall?
13:05:23 <Chef_> Yup, you are assuming correctly
13:05:35 <I440r> no. i told it i dont wnat this machine to be a gateway
13:05:41 <I440r> oph
13:05:45 <Chef_> Can you see the packets on your gateway server? Use tcpdump
13:05:54 <I440r> you mean thers some other firewall package 
13:05:56 <I440r> hang on
13:06:30 <I440r> lol installing tcpdump on server :P
13:06:57 <Chef_> :)
13:07:11 <I440r> i dont like fbsd's naming conventions
13:07:18 <I440r> nor the fact that route works different in fbsd
13:07:20 <Chef_> There is 50% chance (even more than that as you describe it) that the server gets the ICMP ECHO REQUEST but doesn't send any ICMP ECHO REPLY back.
13:07:24 <I440r> route -n is all i need to list the routing tables in linux
13:07:27 <Chef_> BSD route is the original one!
13:07:34 <I440r> its DUMB that route cant LIST the tables in fbsd
13:07:50 <I440r> having to use netstat is silly
13:08:07 <I440r> no. my server always replies to pings from the local net
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13:08:27 <Chef_> It's DUMB that route can't set a static route (which won't be removed automatically) on Linux...
13:08:38 <I440r> how do i make netstat KEEP going ?
13:08:48 <Chef_> What do you mean?
13:09:09 <I440r> i do netstat and it dumps some info and im back at the command prompt
13:09:22 <I440r> long before i can switch to the other keyboard and start pinging :)
13:09:51 <Chef_> I don't understand what you are trying to achieve with netstat
13:10:03 <I440r> sorry i was getting wires crossed heh
13:10:14 <I440r> im doing a tcpdump and im gettting ALLOT of info here
13:10:21 <I440r> no way ill see anything specific
13:10:29 <I440r> can i tell tcpdump to only dump pings and replies ?
13:10:33 <Chef_> Use a filter: tcpdump -i YOURINTERFACE icmp
13:10:50 <Chef_> On Linux, it is likely to be tcpdump -i eth0 icmp
13:10:54 <Chef_> (or eth1, ...)
13:11:33 <I440r> eep! i think i know what the rpoblem is
13:11:38 <Chef_> Which is?
13:11:41 <I440r> i applied the wrong IP to the fbsd machine
13:11:44 <I440r> it should be 1.3
13:11:45 <Chef_> Eheheh :-)
13:11:51 <I440r> the laptop im using is 1.4 heh
13:12:02 <I440r> cant have TWO machines on the same network with the same ip heh\
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13:12:15 <Chef_> You can, and it is likely to kinda work as far as no TCP is involved
13:12:23 <Chef_> But it is not recommended :-)
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13:14:33 <I440r> eep
13:14:38 <I440r> i did an ifconfig dc0 down
13:14:40 <I440r> how do i change its ip now
13:14:42 <I440r> i think im dripping out here because i gave that box the same ip as this one heh
13:14:53 <I440r> erm ifconfig dc0 down didnt remove the device from the list!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
13:15:03 <I440r> fuck - im TOTALLY lost here heh
13:15:07 <Chef_> Probably; I was just saying that duplicate IP may work well as long as no TCP is involved
13:15:09 <I440r> i need to change the IP on this device
13:15:14 <Chef_> Of course it didn't remove it
13:15:21 <Chef_> Just use: ifconfig dc0 delete
13:15:26 <I440r> ugh 
13:15:32 <I440r> trust fbsd to be different :P
13:15:34 <Chef_> Or better: ifconfig dc0 0.0.0.0 down
13:15:42 <Chef_> (delete only works with aliases)
13:15:47 <I440r> shit. i did delete
13:16:00 <I440r> but it still there heh ill try that down thing :)
13:16:02 <Chef_> No problem, just reference it it will reappear
13:16:37 <I440r> its still in there but its ip is now 0.0.0.0
13:16:52 <I440r> what file to i edit so that next time i boot dc0 will be 192.168.1.3 ?
13:16:58 <Chef_> /etc/rc.conf
13:17:38 <Chef_> ifconfig_dc0="inet 192.168.1.3 netmask 0xffffff00"
13:17:58 <I440r> ok, how the fck do i delete all these delete characters vi fucking inserted ?
13:18:06 <Chef_> x
13:18:10 <I440r> i HATE vi
13:18:13 <I440r> with a fucking passion
13:18:18 <gilbert_bsd> use ed then.
13:18:20 <Chef_> :) I love equally vi and emacs
13:18:26 <gilbert_bsd> or use the undo exactly once.
13:18:26 <I440r> whoever wrote vi should be castrated and left to rot on a deserted island
13:18:32 <Chef_> But I'd never use emacs for sysadm stuff
13:18:34 <gilbert_bsd> hmmm funny you should say sol
13:18:35 <gilbert_bsd> so.
13:18:39 <I440r> its inserting x
13:18:44 <Chef_> So press escape
13:18:46 <Chef_> Then x
13:18:52 <gilbert_bsd> bill joy wrote vi, gosling wrote emacs, and they both wrote java :D
13:19:08 <Chef_> gilbert_bsd: they were better when they were young :)
13:19:17 <gilbert_bsd> hahaha
13:19:24 <Chef_> And no, Gosling didn't write Emacs, in spite of his claims :)
13:19:25 <I440r> ok. i managed to edit the file. how do i bring dc0 up with that ip now ?
13:19:38 <Chef_> You do the ifconfig by hand :)
13:19:45 <Chef_> ifconfig dc0 192.168.1.3 netmask 0xffffff00
13:20:17 <Chef_> (or you can ". /etc/rc.conf ; ifconfig dc0 $ifconfig_dc0" but that's as long and more error prone)
13:20:20 <I440r> ok. i can how ping the gateway
13:20:28 <Chef_> At last :)
13:20:31 <I440r> but it wont ping outside the gateway. "no route to host" 
13:20:40 <I440r> the fucking gateway is the fucking default gw!!!!!!!!!!!!!
13:20:40 <Chef_> route add default 192.168.1.1
13:21:00 <I440r> not route add default gw 192.168.1.1 ???
13:21:01 <Chef_> No, FreeBSD is clever: when you take the interface down, it removes routes going through this interface!
13:21:05 <I440r> hrm different again :)
13:21:17 <Chef_> No, "gw" is a Linuxism which has been added a few years ago
13:21:26 <I440r> ok!!!!
13:21:41 <I440r> now. how do i install mc and joe ??? hehe
13:21:54 <I440r> survival in *nix without mc is not possible :)
13:21:56 <Chef_> Read how to make your ports collection up-to-date first
13:22:04 <Chef_> (mc is just crap btw)
13:22:05 <I440r> ok. read where ?
13:22:09 <Chef_> www.freebsd.org
13:22:09 <I440r> mc rox :)
13:22:17 <gilbert_bsd> mc? wtf is mc?
13:22:22 <Chef_> Midnight Commander
13:22:24 <gilbert_bsd> ed!
13:22:24 <I440r> erm nothing local i can read ?
13:22:30 <gilbert_bsd> ed! red! vi
13:22:39 <Chef_> I440r: depends on whether you installed the FreeBSD handbook or not
13:22:41 <gilbert_bsd> did you install the docs?
13:22:45 <I440r> ugh i HATE reading web pages. they always fucking bury the info in 28569824549 different linux
13:22:54 <I440r> ok. how do i install the handbook
13:23:05 <Chef_> I440r: to make it short, you have to update /usr/ports using CVS or CVSup (two different programs)
13:23:13 <I440r> ugh
13:23:14 <gilbert_bsd> do you have the cd?
13:23:14 <Chef_> Then install the sysutils/portupgrade program
13:23:19 <I440r> this is REALY going to suck
13:23:23 <gilbert_bsd> noooo
13:23:27 <I440r> i have all 4 cd's
13:23:27 <Chef_> gilbert_bsd :)))
13:23:32 <gilbert_bsd> hehehe.
13:23:32 <I440r> cvs is horrible
13:23:35 --- nick: gilbert_bsd -> gilbertbsd
13:23:41 <Chef_> Thanks for saving my fingers
13:23:51 <gilbertbsd> you can install it from the cd.
13:23:55 <Chef_> Underscore on a french keyboard is way too high (under the "8")
13:24:08 <I440r> i installed the ports from the cd already
13:24:16 <gilbertbsd> not the ports... the dist
13:24:17 <I440r> but it only installed things from the first cd
13:24:29 <gilbertbsd> oh you are gonna have fun with the remaining cds...
13:24:30 <I440r> eh ? you lost me hhe
13:24:31 <Chef_> gilbertbsd: oh, distfiles are on CD? Nice
13:24:40 <gilbertbsd> yep.
13:24:49 <gilbertbsd> do /stand/sysinstall (with the cd already in)
13:25:16 <I440r> erm /stand/sysinstall command not found
13:25:24 <gilbertbsd> thats impossible.
13:25:32 <gilbertbsd> what version of freebsd are you using?
13:25:34 <I440r> do i mount the cd ?
13:25:37 <I440r> 4.6
13:25:45 <gilbertbsd> no don't mount the cd. just insert it.
13:25:57 <I440r> i musta mistyped it
13:25:59 <gilbertbsd> and then /stand/sysinstall SHOULD work. it always does.
13:26:02 <I440r> sysinstall is in /stand
13:26:05 <I440r> ill redo :)
13:26:19 <I440r> ok. its taken me to the install menu. what next heh
13:26:46 <I440r> hang on. fone
13:31:22 <gilbertbsd> question i440
13:33:26 <Chef_> (I think he hung himself with the phone chord)
13:33:56 <gilbertbsd> It was long enough!
13:35:01 <gilbertbsd> chef have you seen the isforth code?
13:35:27 <I440r> heh
13:35:38 <I440r> no it was my father wanted me to do something for him heh
13:35:52 <I440r> ok. what am i looking for in this menu ?
13:36:00 <I440r> i already did a standard installation
13:36:25 <gilbertbsd> yes ... you want to do a custom installation of the docs only.
13:36:39 <gilbertbsd> so go through the motions and select ONLY the docs you want to install.
13:37:15 <Chef_> gilbertbsd: yeah, I've looked at the isforth code, the FreeBSD part is non-functionning yet, but I guess this will change soon :-)))
13:37:22 <I440r> ive go developer, x-developer etc etc etc
13:37:27 <I440r> no menu item for docs
13:37:54 <Chef_> gilbertbsd: and I discussed ELF executables branding with I440r once, it would be great if isforth could do that
13:38:02 <I440r> it will
13:38:05 <I440r> soon maybe
13:38:22 <gilbertbsd> i440 select one of those
13:38:27 <I440r> now that i have bsd. but i want to get used to bsd before i start messing with isforth for bsd :)
13:38:32 <gilbertbsd> but make sure you can edit what you want from it.
13:38:53 <gilbertbsd> I wish I had my box in front of me... its been 2 months :(
13:40:24 <I440r> its not letting me deselect things
13:40:32 <I440r> i deselect then and then go back into the same meny and they are re-selected
13:40:54 <gilbertbsd> hmmm... are you in custom?
13:41:00 <I440r> cant i just do "apt-get install PACKAGENAME"  <--- much nicer :P
13:41:08 <gilbertbsd> pkg_add yes
13:41:09 <I440r> yes
13:41:28 <gilbertbsd> its called pkg_add in freebsd and the advantage is you can feed it a url.
13:41:29 <I440r> this is all so convoluted
13:41:48 <Chef_> I440r: while in Debian you install binary packages, in FreeBSD you can have both
13:42:02 <Chef_> Either you go with packages, and you install binaries, possibly fetched remotely (using -r)
13:42:07 <I440r> yea. i know. i want them to add a build world to debian
13:42:32 <Chef_> Or you go with ports, which will fetch the sources and compile them locally, with options taken from /etc/make.conf, letting you customize your build options
13:43:16 <I440r> well i would like to just install MC and JOE so i can work easier - using vi and not having mc is a real headace for me
13:43:36 <gilbertbsd> i440 they might be on the cd.
13:43:39 <Chef_> Do a block/file editor in isforth :)
13:43:58 <I440r> Chef_: isforth doesnt support block files yet
13:44:13 <Chef_> I440r: because there is no point in supporting it if you don't have a block editor :)
13:44:15 <I440r> i think i added it to the todo list - if not its in the mental todo list
13:44:36 <I440r> Chef_:  its a chicken/egg thing actually :)
13:44:46 <I440r> no point in having an editor for files isforth doesnt support :)
13:45:05 <I440r> ok. how do i get MC
13:45:07 <I440r> how do i get joe
13:45:10 <Chef_> I440r: loading a block is trivial
13:45:12 <I440r> are they on the cd ?
13:45:35 <I440r> Chef_: i know. i just havent gotten to it yet. there are higher priorities
13:45:38 <Chef_> Ok, I have to go now
13:45:41 <gilbertbsd> pkg_add ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/branches/-current/ports/editors/joe
13:45:44 <I440r> like sockets. dns. assembler
13:45:45 <gilbertbsd> do that.
13:46:08 <Chef_> gilbertbsd: on the -current branch? Yike, you love risks, that won't be the right libc, will it?
13:46:20 <gilbertbsd> it should be.
13:46:26 <gilbertbsd> that has joe-2.8_5
13:46:43 <Chef_> I would suggest: pkg_add -r joe
13:46:47 <gilbertbsd> the other version available is the joe-devel
13:46:47 <Chef_> It should do the job :)
13:47:18 <I440r> heh i did the pkg_add -r joe and i think its downloading it now :)
13:47:31 <I440r> will pkg_add -r mc work too ?
13:47:48 <I440r> erm . maybe its not working. the modem lights arent moving at all
13:47:49 <Chef_> Yup
13:48:10 <gilbertbsd> i440 you can always just browse the cds .
13:48:24 <Chef_> Ok, bye for real now
13:48:26 <Chef_> See you soon
13:48:27 <I440r> its SAYING its fetching ftp://ftp.fbsd.org......
13:48:32 --- quit: Chef_ ("[x]chat")
13:48:35 <I440r> but its not downloading anything
13:48:40 <gilbertbsd> yeah thats okay.
13:48:48 <gilbertbsd> look away for a little while, while it does its magic.
13:48:53 <gilbertbsd> it can't 'go' while you look.
13:49:04 <gilbertbsd> ;)
13:49:27 <I440r> you mean its compiling it in the background or something ?
13:49:48 <gilbertbsd> no, its gathering all the info it can.
13:49:55 <gilbertbsd> and then it will start working at it.
13:50:06 <I440r> heh i was in console 2 and console 1 was pinging the gateway heh 
13:50:12 <gilbertbsd> ha.
13:50:20 <I440r> why does it take so long to gather the info ?
13:50:27 <gilbertbsd> I don't know.
13:50:27 <I440r> is this realy a complex thing to do ?
13:50:31 <gilbertbsd> nope.
13:50:36 <gilbertbsd> pkg_add <package>
13:50:38 <I440r> this is a 900 mhz machine too
13:50:42 <gilbertbsd> <package>
13:50:51 <I440r> and its just sitting there claiming to be fetching a package :P
13:51:10 <gilbertbsd> what about the connection speed?
13:51:15 <gilbertbsd> is it also 900M?
13:51:17 <I440r> i switched to the other console and did a "top"
13:51:28 <I440r> it tells me that pkg_add is in sbwait
13:51:47 <I440r> no but i think the package was already downloaded (there was modem activity to begin with)
13:51:57 <I440r> so its got the package
13:52:01 <I440r> now its doing its "magic"
13:52:04 <gilbertbsd> type joe
13:52:06 <I440r> how long should that take
13:52:08 <gilbertbsd> if its ready.
13:52:14 <I440r> its not
13:52:22 <I440r> how long does it normally take to do this
13:52:27 <gilbertbsd> ummm I used to have a 33.6k modem so I had a lot of patience.
13:52:32 <I440r> modem activity ended a few minutes ago
13:52:37 <I440r> so i think it has the package
13:52:48 <I440r> why isnt it doing an "install" now
13:52:50 <gilbertbsd> your current list of packages are under /var/db/pkg
13:53:16 <gilbertbsd> you can also do a pkg_info to see what you currently have
13:53:34 <I440r> joe isnt listed
13:53:43 <I440r> it still thinks its fetching it
13:53:48 <gilbertbsd> thats good.
13:53:50 <I440r> i think pkg_add is b0rked
13:53:57 <gilbertbsd> hahah no its not.
13:54:05 <gilbertbsd> I highly recommend popping in the cds
13:54:11 <gilbertbsd> and then doing /stand/sysinstall
13:54:18 <gilbertbsd> and then browsing through the packages on the cd
13:54:22 <I440r> no modem activity and it claims "fetching "ftp://....../joe.tgz..."
13:54:39 <gilbertbsd> yeah thats all good.
13:54:44 <I440r> sysinstall is worse than dselect
13:54:55 <I440r> its like the crappy fucked up redhat package selector
13:54:57 <I440r> but worse
13:55:01 <gilbertbsd> no its better :D
13:55:07 <gilbertbsd> can you see the packages on the cd?
13:55:08 <I440r> i have to say sysinstall is about the worst package selector ive ever seen
13:55:15 <I440r> totally non-intuative
13:55:20 <I440r> what cd
13:55:26 <I440r> mount the cd ?
13:55:29 <gilbertbsd> the freebsd cds
13:55:45 <gilbertbsd> don't  mount it... too much trouble.
13:55:48 <I440r> it says "done" now
13:55:54 <gilbertbsd> yep. rehash.
13:55:56 <gilbertbsd> and then joe
13:56:00 <I440r> so it just takes forever to install shit
13:56:20 <I440r> trying to install mc now :P
13:56:25 <I440r> what does rehash do
13:56:41 <gilbertbsd> if you are in csh/tcsh it ummm updates the hash tables
13:56:56 <I440r> i wanna do a build world - that totally recompiles everything locally right ?
13:56:57 <gilbertbsd> so that a newly installed package is immediately available at your command.
13:57:04 <gilbertbsd> yes it does.
13:58:22 <I440r> oh yea. i also want to be using bash
13:58:32 <gilbertbsd> did you install bash?
13:58:47 <I440r> and i KNOW if i edit /etc/passwd to bash it doesnt change a fucking thing till i "compile" it somehow (lame)
13:59:00 <I440r> brb, need coffee hhe
13:59:00 <I440r> dunno
13:59:00 <I440r> i didnt select individual packages
13:59:10 <gilbertbsd> ah you shoulda from the cd.
13:59:15 <I440r> i took the easy way out heh
13:59:23 <gilbertbsd> its not very hard ... really.
13:59:29 <gilbertbsd> do browse the cd sometime.
13:59:41 <gilbertbsd> sheesh you PROGRAM in asm for chriscakes
14:01:33 <I440r> asm is SIMPLE
14:01:33 <I440r> fbsd is COMPLEX
14:02:01 <gilbertbsd> freebsd is as simple as they come.
14:02:15 <gilbertbsd> once you can use /stand/sysinstall ... everything will be easy as pie.
14:03:09 <I440r> :)
14:03:37 <I440r> ok, its in "20 minuts of twiddling thumbs" mode on this install again :P
14:04:09 <gilbertbsd> hehe. just browse through the sysinstall stuff.
14:04:27 <I440r> realy dumb to have this delay every time you install a package
14:04:27 <gilbertbsd> btw do you know of a lisp written in asm?
14:04:36 <I440r> i dont think ill ever LIKE fbsd
14:04:49 <gilbertbsd> just give it a day.
14:04:56 <gilbertbsd> did you get X to work?
14:04:58 <I440r> i will heh
14:05:02 <I440r> not started with x yet
14:05:06 <gilbertbsd> uh oh.
14:05:08 <I440r> want joe and mc first
14:05:15 <I440r> and i think i want to build world first
14:05:16 <I440r> :)
14:05:21 <gilbertbsd> what for?
14:05:23 <I440r> and redo the kernel.
14:05:44 <I440r> i KNOW the kernel has shit ill never need in it
14:05:48 <I440r> like ipv6
14:05:55 <gilbertbsd> ah okay.
14:05:59 <gilbertbsd> its not too hard either.
14:06:07 <gilbertbsd> just look for LINT and remove and add as you please.
14:06:15 <gilbertbsd> make sure you do read the docs though...
14:06:24 <I440r> what docs heh
14:06:25 <I440r> where ?
14:06:35 <I440r> see, i dont even know WHERE to rtfm in bsd :P
14:06:56 <gilbertbsd> does man work?
14:07:00 <I440r> yes
14:07:05 <gilbertbsd> man kernel
14:07:50 <I440r> k
14:07:59 <I440r> no manual entry for kernel
14:08:25 <gilbertbsd> hmm you gotsa find it in the online or offline handbook.
14:08:34 <gilbertbsd> read it online since you have to ;)
14:09:02 <I440r> no. i want to install it locally. reading online manuals is a fucking pain in the ass
14:09:14 <I440r> they always bury the information in 2498293842398427984 links to other pages
14:09:17 <I440r> fucking pisses me off
14:09:21 <gilbertbsd> the offline manual is in .html too ;)
14:09:28 <I440r> ugh
14:09:30 <gilbertbsd> there might be a pdf one as well though.
14:09:36 <I440r> how do i get man kernel to work ?
14:09:54 <I440r> this install of mc is damned stupid. its STILL not "done"
14:10:19 <gilbertbsd> you really should start checking out the cd.
14:10:30 <gilbertbsd> under /stand/sysinstall 
14:10:43 <gilbertbsd> go to config... or custom (I don't remember :( )
14:11:13 <I440r> ugh
14:11:23 <I440r> heh
14:11:29 <I440r> it scares me :P
14:12:12 <gilbertbsd> okay we can do this...
14:12:32 <gilbertbsd> do you have the first cd with in the drive and /stand/sysinstall executed?
14:13:47 <I440r> not yet, waiting on this fucking install of mc first
14:13:59 <I440r> the ppl in #freebsd are saying there shouldnt be any delay
14:14:14 <gilbertbsd> well you can do that while waiting.
14:14:37 <I440r> heh
14:16:47 <gilbertbsd> I think your asm code is pretty readable.
14:17:05 <gilbertbsd> do you have any pages you think I should read/look at first?
14:19:18 <I440r> pages ?
14:19:29 <gilbertbsd> yea asm tips and stuff.
14:21:03 <I440r> hmm well how much asm do you know ?
14:21:26 <I440r> can you read my sources ?
14:23:21 <I440r> ok. sysinstall doesnt give me a list of all packages on all cd's does it
14:23:25 <I440r> just the cd thats currently installed ?
14:23:36 <I440r> doesnt seem to want to give me any specific package names either
14:23:47 <I440r> i can install "[x] DOC"
14:23:59 <I440r> but i cant be more specific about WHAT fucking documentation to install
14:24:06 <gilbertbsd> it can.
14:24:12 <I440r> btw i found a text version of the handbook locally
14:24:23 <gilbertbsd> ah okay. thats that.
14:25:07 <I440r> btw. when i do a rehash i can use joe
14:25:17 <I440r> but if i switch to another console it doesnt know joe till i rehash
14:25:55 <gilbertbsd> yeah thats because they were open _before_ you installed joe.
14:26:07 <gilbertbsd> now who is joe to be recognized  by them w/o a rehash?
14:30:48 <I440r> mc is still installing :)
14:30:59 <gilbertbsd> its been 6 days and 6 nights now.
14:31:00 --- quit: air ("moving")
14:33:56 <gilbertbsd> you there i440?
14:36:41 <I440r> yea im here
14:36:45 <I440r> still waiting on MC to install
14:36:58 <I440r> its downloading ALOT of locale packages for mc now. one at a time
14:37:02 <I440r> and installing them one at a time
14:37:13 <gilbertbsd> how fast is the connection fbsd is using?
14:37:34 <I440r> 26.4
14:38:04 <gilbertbsd> it really is taking an inordinately long time.
14:38:21 <gilbertbsd> next time you can d/l the .tgz file and then pkg_add said .tgz file ;)
14:38:32 <I440r> yes but i think its doing things
14:38:42 <I440r> i dont know why its taking so long for each sub package to install
14:38:55 <I440r> its downloading ALOT of locale things right now
14:39:11 <I440r> like each directory of locale is in a seperate package or something 
14:39:11 <I440r> duh
14:40:15 <gilbertbsd> duh.
14:40:32 <gilbertbsd> I need to learn how to write interpreters/compilers to fully understand how to write a simple parser.
14:40:34 <gilbertbsd> double duh
14:41:01 <I440r> why
14:41:14 <I440r> forths parser is the simplest
14:41:23 --- join: Kitanin (~Kitanin@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth
14:41:31 <gilbertbsd> I was wondering about one for lisp.
14:41:39 <gilbertbsd> apparently, there isn't a lisp in assembler!
14:41:41 <I440r> when you write a string of commands (words) forth extracts each one, one at a time from the input stream
14:42:09 <I440r> and searches its dictionary for the currently parsed word
14:42:09 <I440r> if it finds it it executes it (or compiles it)
14:42:47 <gilbertbsd> which of your .l files deals with that aspect?
14:43:12 <I440r> they are .1 files. i wanted .i but was told i couldnt use that so i changed the I to a 1
14:43:14 <I440r> heh
14:43:29 <gilbertbsd> ah okay.
14:43:35 <gilbertbsd> so which of them deals with that?
14:43:43 <I440r> compile.1 is where all that is but the words to do the parsing etc are all HIGH level words
14:43:58 <I440r> i.e. they are FORTH colon definitions that i created BY HAND by using nasm macros
14:46:15 <Kitanin> Hey, I wrote some Xenix software that way recently...
14:46:26 <I440r> :)
14:46:34 <gilbertbsd> do i need the .f files to understand the .1 files and forth parsing?
14:46:49 <I440r> no. the .f files are the extensions. they are all 100% forth code
14:46:50 <Kitanin> Lacking an assembler and/or compiler on the Xenix system, I didn't have a bunch of choices.
14:46:53 <I440r> no assembler in them at all
14:47:20 <I440r> im going to rename the asmsrc directory to "kernel" and the forthsrc directory to "extensions"
14:47:51 <gilbertbsd> so those don't really matter for now?
14:48:56 <I440r> not for you no
14:49:02 <I440r> dont delete them, just ignore them heh
14:49:45 <gilbertbsd> and which version of nasm did you use?
14:49:55 <gilbertbsd> last time I heard you were dabbling in 0.99
14:50:32 <I440r> latest is always best
14:50:50 <I440r> or. /dns me and look in my ftp
14:50:52 <gilbertbsd> but 0.98 is all I can get.
14:51:49 <I440r> you need 0.98.34+
14:51:49 <I440r> its installing libslang now - mc depends on it
14:53:00 <I440r> brb
14:53:30 --- join: tathi (~josh@ip68-9-68-50.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth
14:56:19 <I440r> back
14:57:20 <gilbertbsd> brb
14:57:22 --- part: gilbertbsd left #forth
15:08:03 --- join: I440r_ (~mark4@1Cust39.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth
15:09:13 <I440r_> modem died
15:09:15 <I440r_> which means i had to start the fucking MC install over again
15:28:35 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
15:28:36 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
15:37:44 --- join: cyberlok (cyberlok@cyberlok.no-ip.com) joined #forth
15:37:57 <cyberlok> sorry for being gone so long
15:38:14 <cyberlok> but life has been busy and now I am going soon on a 1 1/2 month vacation
15:39:31 <I440r_> how do i get rid of the fucking shitty looking reverse video crap from MAN in fbsd ?
15:40:58 <I440r_> im uninstalling fbsd
15:46:49 <I440r_> and another thing fbsd is fucked up for is.... wehen you read the end of a man page MAN fucking QUITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
15:47:06 <I440r_> YOU CANT FUCKING SCROLL BACK IF YOU GET TO THE END OF THE MAN PAGE!! (oopts caps)
15:57:39 <cyberlok> a little frustrated are we :)
15:57:54 <cyberlok> hey I440r_ you know how to code in tcl a little?
16:02:16 <I440r_> nope
16:03:52 <cyberlok> damn
16:04:00 <cyberlok> hehe I think it is a lost language 
16:35:37 <tathi> I440r_: I've had that problem with man in some Linux distros too...
16:35:46 <tathi> generally meants it's using more as a pager, instead of less
16:37:26 <tathi> s/meants/means/
16:39:54 <I440r_> yea. i know - its using MORE instead of less
16:40:12 <I440r_> thats fixable. how do i make it NOT use reverse video in the man pages
16:40:20 <I440r_> i think the linux way of highlighting is far better
16:40:28 <I440r_> the reverse video SUCKS
16:40:46 <I440r_> its make it look like a huge BLOB of unreadable text
16:41:05 <I440r_> plus the fucking attitude they gave me in #freebsd pisses me off big time
16:41:14 <I440r_> there NO Fucking way it should take an hour to install MC 
16:41:20 <I440r_> not even on MY fucking connection
16:57:01 <tathi> heh
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16:58:34 <Herkamire> I440r_: write your own freakin' OS.
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16:59:33 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
17:01:33 <XeF4> I've not found the attitude in #freebsd much different than in any other OS-specific channel, and yes, it sucks big time.
17:01:55 <TheBlueWizard> hmm?
17:02:32 <XeF4> 02:50 < I440r_> plus the fucking attitude they gave me in #freebsd pisses me off big time
17:03:00 <TheBlueWizard> are you saying you found that every channel has some big egos running around, eh?
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17:05:56 <XeF4> I'm saying every channel has some "We don't care if it works and if you expect the documentation to be correct, you are a lamer and deserve to lose." types hanging around
17:05:59 <segher> hey ho
17:06:05 <I440r_> no but i recall #freebsd and their ilk tend to give you a pile of shit all the time
17:06:10 <I440r_> sort of line undernet #linux
17:06:30 <TheBlueWizard> hmm....
17:07:00 <XeF4> hm, iirc, efnet #unix will just kickban you straight away if you ask a "newbie" question
17:07:26 <XeF4> ("This is not a helpdesk.")
17:07:40 <I440r_> :)
17:08:12 <I440r_> well ive all but totally abandoned the idea of having a fbsd version if isforth if thats the sort of shitheads that use fbsd :)
17:08:24 <I440r_> _chef seems to be the odd man out in fbsd heh
17:09:38 <segher> i have a question...  what's a good way of implementing ABORT" ?
17:10:14 <I440r_> well abort" is usually immediate
17:10:24 <I440r_> it compiles a (abort")
17:10:25 <segher> sure
17:10:40 <segher> what about the string parameter?
17:10:44 <I440r_> then it compiles the string
17:10:48 <I440r_> well. look at ."
17:10:57 <I440r_> they do a '"' word 
17:11:04 <segher> i know how that works, thank you :)
17:11:07 <I440r_> and compiles the counted string in place :)
17:11:38 <segher> my ." compiles to  <C"> TYPE
17:11:41 <I440r_> (abort") checks to see if there is a true flag on the stack. if there is it displays the string and jumps to abort
17:11:54 <I440r_> if there isnt it sets the return address to the address past the end of the string
17:11:57 <TheBlueWizard> : abort" postpone ." does> quit ; ...is that the way to do it???
17:12:00 <segher> display the string...  to where?
17:12:43 <I440r_> console
17:12:52 <segher> if you display the string at the abort" point, you display it to the what-is-output-right-there context; you should display it to the what-is-output-at-the-catch-point context
17:13:01 <I440r_> tbw theres no such thing as postpone
17:13:09 <I440r_> its a MYTH
17:13:11 <I440r_> a LIE!!!
17:13:15 <segher> heh
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17:13:40 <gilbertbsd> hello
17:13:45 <gilbertbsd> i440 you there?
17:13:55 <segher> ah well, i'll just have it stick the string pointer to some global
17:14:02 <TheBlueWizard> I440r_: hehe...I have seen postpone everywhere these days...though I never have programmed in "modern" forth, and so I am not sure lol :)
17:14:08 <TheBlueWizard> hiya gilbertbsd
17:14:16 <gilbertbsd> hi wizard.
17:14:58 <I440r_> trust me, postpone is an abomination to be shunned
17:14:58 <segher> i don't particularly like POSTPONE -- but it addresses a real problem
17:15:18 <I440r_> the word'S (note PLURAL not singular) are compile and [compile]
17:16:00 * TheBlueWizard is more familiar with compile and [compile]
17:16:04 <XeF4> I440r: what's wrong with postpone?
17:16:21 * TheBlueWizard knee-jerk trust I440r_ for anything Forth related ;)
17:16:25 <I440r_> 1) its a BAD name
17:16:34 <I440r_> 2 read the isforth compile.1 source file :)
17:16:51 <segher> there's only COMPILE, not COMPILE nor [COMPILE] :)
17:17:03 <XeF4> 2) 1+it's not really necessary
17:17:24 <segher> it _is_ necessary, for *portable* programs.
17:18:34 <XeF4> it's a bad name and irritatingly long, but the functionality is sound.
17:18:47 <segher> right
17:19:44 <I440r_> read my source file, it tells all. postpone will NEVER be included in isforth
17:19:45 <I440r_> EVER
17:19:52 <I440r_> its fucking unreadable
17:20:04 <I440r_> postpone x postpone y postpone z
17:20:06 <segher> if you have separate compile and interprete dictionaries, POSTPONE is just an alias for either COMPILE or [COMPILE] , too
17:20:15 <I440r_> people ALWAYS do that shit
17:20:18 <I440r_> its un fucking readable
17:20:21 <I440r_> and un forth
17:20:24 <I440r_> : blah x y z ;
17:20:28 <I440r_> compile blah
17:20:31 <I440r_> nuff sed
17:21:23 <segher> COMPILE is an immediate word.
17:21:48 <segher> an immediate compile-time only word, even.
17:21:58 <XeF4> [COMPILE] COMPILE :)
17:25:28 <I440r_> postpone postpone postpone x 
17:25:37 <I440r_> should be COMPILE x
17:25:44 <I440r_> or a create does> x
17:25:48 <I440r_> or something 
17:26:04 <I440r_> you dont create a word that later compiles x somewhere
17:26:09 <I440r_> thats fucked up
17:26:17 <segher> why?
17:26:30 <segher> you need to define COMPILE as well, you know :)
17:28:23 * TheBlueWizard sits down, watching the philosophical arguments....he loves those arguments
17:28:24 <segher> and macro's _can_ be useful sometimes, too.
17:28:46 <segher> hehe
17:29:35 <XeF4> you do, but the sane way imo is [ ' foo ] literal compile,
17:30:40 <segher> that only works for ITC forths.
17:31:12 <segher> (like mine) :)
17:32:33 <XeF4> that works on (most) native-coded forths too
17:33:08 <I440r_> no. you just do ['] foo , 
17:33:28 <XeF4> ['] foo compile, \ XeF4 uses a native-coded forth
17:33:34 <I440r_> far far far less verbose
17:34:59 <segher> POSTPONE foo    is the same as    ['] foo COMPILE,
17:37:23 <XeF4> but not necessarily the same as [ ' foo ] literal compile,
17:37:33 <I440r_> the problem is the idiots who do
17:37:50 <I440r_> postpone x postpone y postpone z postpone a postpone z ......... etc etc etc
17:38:02 <I440r_> instead of creating a fucking : blah x y z a b c ...... ;
17:38:08 <XeF4> like the gforth developers, for example?
17:38:24 <I440r_> no. like every moron on CLF
17:38:35 <I440r_> it gets worse than that tho
17:38:39 <I440r_> the dipshits do
17:38:47 <I440r_> eval" x y z a b c"
17:38:47 <segher> what's wrong with that?
17:38:48 <I440r_> ugh
17:38:56 <I440r_> seger its NOT forth
17:39:02 <I440r_> its overly verbose
17:39:12 <I440r_> its the sort of SHIT one expects of C coders
17:39:41 <I440r_> the above eval" is another case where some moron doesnt know how to factor his code out
17:39:51 <I440r_> : blah x y z a b c ;
17:40:00 <I440r_> : foo ...... blah ...... ;
17:40:19 <I440r_> instead of injecting an eval" in the middle of foo and totally preventing any chance of turnkey
17:40:20 <I440r_> duh!
17:40:29 <segher> eval can be useful -- when, for example, you don't know whether all words eval'ed actually exist in the dictionary
17:41:06 <I440r_> there IS no fucking dictionaryb in a TURNKEYD app
17:41:17 <I440r_> and using eval" fucks all over your chance of using turnkey
17:41:36 <I440r_> if a word doesnt exist you will get a "blah ?"
17:41:38 <I440r_> then you will know
17:42:44 <I440r_> bleh
17:42:46 <I440r_> nuff sed :P
17:44:00 <TheBlueWizard> sounds like you could write a book titled Tao of Forth: How to Code Forth The Forth Way :)
17:47:12 <segher> sounds like you haven't used a >1MB of Forth source app yet
17:47:58 <TheBlueWizard> segher: have you actually programmed a >1 meg Forth app?
17:48:07 <segher> doing it.
17:48:23 <segher> an Open Firmware implementation.
17:49:11 <XeF4> how in the name of everything unholy..
17:49:24 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...how do you deal with naming pollution?  I find it a big issue for large scale coding
17:50:12 <I440r_> vocabs and hidden words
17:50:22 <segher> vocabularies.
17:50:28 <I440r_> thats the only way i can figure :)
17:50:28 <I440r_> headerless even
17:50:49 <segher> i don't use hidden words -- but i _do_ use headerless words, yes.
17:51:02 <I440r_> seger if you have more than 1 meg of forth source you probably need to rethink the project :)
17:51:13 <I440r_> tho thats prolly not always the case
17:51:23 <I440r_> im sure there are SOME "mega source" forth projects out there
17:51:41 * TheBlueWizard haven't seen a way of hiding words...vocabularies, yes...but it is typically flat
17:52:05 <I440r_> tbw creating headerless words is quite easy actually
17:52:10 <segher> it's that big, only because it needs to support that much hardware
17:52:31 <TheBlueWizard> I440r_: I know how to create headerless words...but hidden?
17:52:43 <I440r_> seger ok. but your not compiling ALL x megs of source every time are you ?
17:52:51 <I440r_> hidden words are headerless words
17:52:55 <segher> "hidden" is just a header flag, like "immediate"
17:53:02 <segher> the name is Segher, not "seger"
17:53:07 <I440r_> you compile into the hidden vocabulary\
17:53:12 <I440r_> yea i know i just cant type hhe
17:53:17 <I440r_> and i forget to hit tab
17:53:38 <I440r_> i gotta take doggie for a walk :)
17:53:39 <I440r_> brb
17:53:45 <segher> code can be read as pre-compiled dictionaries, or as FCode
17:53:50 <segher> or as source, of course.
17:55:04 * TheBlueWizard thinks I440r_ would need to get his dog a running wheel (the kind that gerbils exercise in)
17:55:41 <I440r_> i wanna get a harness and a sled so the dog can pull ne thru the snow etc
17:55:47 <I440r_> that would be awesome :)
17:55:52 <I440r_> brb :)
17:57:43 <TheBlueWizard> lol
18:12:02 <I440r_> back
18:20:17 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye all
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18:21:36 <I440r_> nite nite
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18:37:23 <Herkamire> why would you want to hide definitions?
18:37:36 <Herkamire> if you want to use a name that is already taken, then just do it. who cares?
18:38:09 <Herkamire> so long if you want to be able to access both words, then don't name them both the same.
18:38:28 <Herkamire> That's one thing I like about forth, you don't get name conflicts.
18:40:19 <Herkamire> I
18:40:35 <Herkamire> I can't imagine programming something big enough that I would run out of names for words.
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22:49:36 <Serg_Penguin> hi
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