00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.10.04 00:33:58 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 00:34:05 re hi 00:34:09 Hi :) 00:34:40 what u will suggest to read on OS guts ? 00:35:16 i tryed to find Scott Maxwell 'Linux Core kernel commentary at #bookwarez, butt miserably failed 00:35:45 i have herd what similar book on SysV exists 00:35:57 No idea :-) 00:36:04 err _heard_ damn my kbd 00:36:37 but if u wann write OS, even C64 micro-level, i guess u digged at the topic... 00:38:18 Serg_Penguin : You know "core kernel commentary" is pretty much just a long listing of the source code, right? 00:38:26 You can get those w4rez at kernel.org :) 00:39:17 School. Bye. 00:39:34 Serg_Penguin : A much better book for learning about the linux kernel is: Understand the Linux Kernel, 2nd edition 00:39:42 Understanding, that is. 00:39:55 "Understanding the Linux Kernel, 2nd edition" 00:40:00 noticed 00:40:31 It's by O'Reilly instead of coriollis, but it's well worth the price. 00:41:14 where's much orelly at bookwarez 00:41:34 brb 00:41:36 Ya? Good good. 00:43:39 gnna test hardware...., brb few mins 00:43:45 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 00:46:53 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 00:47:30 re hi 00:59:11 --- part: Serg_Penguin left #forth 01:08:16 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 01:08:27 re hi 01:09:12 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Client Quit) 01:10:13 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 01:23:23 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 01:23:40 hi 01:24:37 what u 'll suggest me to read on OS guts ? 01:25:00 "Understanding the Linux Kernel, 2nd edition" 01:25:08 :))) 01:25:25 found on bookwarez, but will take too long to suck 01:27:01 maybe u'l suck it for me, and gimme it by http, fast ? 01:27:37 What connection do you have? 01:28:09 64k cable modem, but fserv _gives_ it too slow, saving _his_ bandwidth 01:28:48 Well, just download it yourself then. I won't be able to get any better speeds. 01:29:23 i sure 01:29:49 but i ask u because _I_ must test hardware ( and so reboot often ) 01:30:08 so if u can stay on 1hour, u can help me 01:30:16 --- quit: Serg_Penguin ("one more damn cd-rw to test...") 01:33:51 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 01:34:01 re hi 01:37:11 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Client Quit) 02:02:22 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 02:02:35 re hi 02:05:16 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Client Quit) 02:12:40 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 02:20:05 --- quit: Serg_Penguin ("one more damn cd-rw to test...") 02:33:08 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 02:45:02 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 02:55:01 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 02:55:16 re hi 02:56:52 what forth, do u think, will evolve into workable general purpose os ? 02:57:07 i now try Enth, but it seems not be the right thing 03:02:58 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 03:20:39 --- join: jacereda (~crc@VA1-1G-u-0041.mc.onolab.com) joined #forth 04:06:21 --- part: dmiles left #forth 04:21:16 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 04:23:13 hi 04:24:23 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Client Quit) 04:30:04 --- quit: Speuler (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:30:04 --- quit: Robert (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:30:04 --- quit: jacereda (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:30:08 --- quit: air (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:30:31 --- join: jacereda (~crc@VA1-1G-u-0041.mc.onolab.com) joined #forth 04:30:31 --- join: Speuler (~l@mnch-d9ba4100.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 04:30:31 --- join: air (~brand@12-254-199-50.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 04:30:31 --- join: Robert (~Robert@robost86.tsps1.freenet6.net) joined #forth 04:41:47 hi 04:43:02 forthfreak.net state: whois database finally updated. root servers not yet. 04:45:05 sheet. with previous reg it took 1 hour ... 05:01:17 ah 05:01:33 first 4 root servers got it 05:05:23 Speuler: hi! 05:05:30 hi 1tom 05:05:42 Speuler: have u got those reference website urls? 05:06:03 i got them, yes, but on another machine. haven't looked at them yet. 05:06:10 can you give me the url again ? 05:06:14 sure 05:06:19 * onetom greps :) 05:06:44 i went to the office shortly after you gave me the urls 05:06:51 still there :) 05:07:24 03 23:16:30 adriatour.com pantera.hu dunacafe.hu ladies.hu sonyautohifi.hu 05:10:03 why does "ladies" say "dunacafe" ? 05:10:14 pardon? 05:10:45 on the ladies.hu url, it says "dunacafe" 05:11:15 (just checking if there's "ladies" on the dunacafe.hu url :) 05:12:27 the dunacafe logo just sits on the bottom of the page 05:12:47 5th rootserver just came through. 05:13:00 i also told them this is disgusting and misleadin this way 05:13:12 should be ready for production pretty soon. 05:13:21 very nice pages 05:13:37 i like the non-flashy colours 05:13:52 can look at the pages without sunglasses 05:13:54 but they want that dunacafe news site b advertised on a frequently hit page 05:14:00 :)) 05:14:43 that are zope-based pages ? 05:15:04 no, they arent yet 05:15:19 but gonna b within ~2 month 05:15:28 @least we hope a lot :) 05:24:28 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:28:23 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 05:29:29 hi 05:29:55 what forth, do u think, may evolve in full OS ? 05:30:10 ore even toy one ? 05:30:22 i try Enth but dunno believe in it 05:31:04 --- quit: Speuler (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:31:04 --- quit: Robert (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:31:04 --- quit: jacereda (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:31:10 --- quit: air (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:31:10 --- quit: Kitanin (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:31:11 --- quit: ianni (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:31:11 --- quit: TreyB (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:31:11 --- quit: skylan (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:31:11 --- quit: ChanServ (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:31:17 why? 05:31:40 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 05:31:40 --- join: Robert (~Robert@robost86.tsps1.freenet6.net) joined #forth 05:31:40 --- join: air (~brand@12-254-199-50.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 05:31:40 --- join: Speuler (~l@mnch-d9ba4100.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 05:31:40 --- join: jacereda (~crc@VA1-1G-u-0041.mc.onolab.com) joined #forth 05:31:40 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 05:31:40 --- join: TreyB (~trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 05:31:40 --- join: ianni (ian@inpuj.net) joined #forth 05:31:40 --- join: skylan (sjh@Sprint8102.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 05:31:40 --- mode: card.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 05:32:06 --- quit: Speuler (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:32:06 --- quit: Robert (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:32:06 --- quit: jacereda (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:32:12 --- quit: air (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:32:14 --- quit: Kitanin (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:32:14 --- quit: TreyB (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:32:15 --- quit: ianni (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:32:15 --- quit: skylan (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:32:15 --- quit: ChanServ (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:33:01 is it thunk to be a general-purpose OS from initial design ? 05:33:13 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 05:33:13 --- join: Robert (~Robert@robost86.tsps1.freenet6.net) joined #forth 05:33:13 --- join: air (~brand@12-254-199-50.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 05:33:13 --- join: Speuler (~l@mnch-d9ba4100.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 05:33:13 --- join: jacereda (~crc@VA1-1G-u-0041.mc.onolab.com) joined #forth 05:33:13 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 05:33:13 --- join: TreyB (~trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 05:33:13 --- join: ianni (ian@inpuj.net) joined #forth 05:33:13 --- join: skylan (sjh@Sprint8102.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 05:33:13 --- mode: card.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 05:33:28 Serg_Penguin: and whats wrong w enth then? 05:34:20 for what real thing u can use it ? 05:34:43 i wrote many good utils in os-using forths... 05:34:53 but standalone ? 05:35:49 --- quit: Serg_Penguin ("one more damn cd-rw to test...") 05:37:40 --- quit: Speuler (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:37:40 --- quit: Robert (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:37:40 --- quit: jacereda (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:37:48 --- quit: air (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:37:48 --- quit: Kitanin (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:37:48 --- quit: TreyB (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:37:53 --- quit: ianni (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:37:53 --- quit: skylan (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:37:53 --- quit: ChanServ (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:38:05 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 05:38:05 --- join: Robert (~Robert@robost86.tsps1.freenet6.net) joined #forth 05:38:05 --- join: air (~brand@12-254-199-50.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 05:38:05 --- join: Speuler (~l@mnch-d9ba4100.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 05:38:05 --- join: jacereda (~crc@VA1-1G-u-0041.mc.onolab.com) joined #forth 05:38:05 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 05:38:05 --- join: TreyB (~trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 05:38:05 --- join: ianni (ian@inpuj.net) joined #forth 05:38:05 --- join: skylan (sjh@Sprint8102.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 05:38:05 --- mode: card.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 05:38:48 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 05:40:24 re hi 05:41:52 Hi serg. 05:47:46 hi 05:47:48 --- quit: Serg_Penguin ("one more damn cd-rw to test...") 05:52:14 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 05:55:11 hi 06:08:00 --- join: tathi (~josh@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 06:16:32 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Killed (NickServ (Nickname Enforcement))) 06:16:34 --- join: Serg_p (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 06:16:41 re hi 06:17:04 --- nick: Serg_p -> Serg_Penguin 06:19:17 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 06:19:28 hi Herkamire 06:21:13 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 06:32:29 --- quit: jacereda (Remote closed the connection) 06:41:54 forthfreak.net should work now. would you mind trying to ping it ? 06:43:22 Serg: well, the only problem w standalon 4th-es that they cannot easily access data stores 06:44:17 64 bytes from real2.de (217.160.131.123): icmp_seq=0 ttl=230 time=154.265 msec 06:44:17 64 bytes from real2.de (217.160.131.123): icmp_seq=1 ttl=230 time=151.156 msec 06:46:10 good. not all root servers have it yet, but most of them. 06:46:57 virtual web domain created - 06:47:51 ready. now the contents :) 06:48:04 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 06:48:09 Serg: well, the only problem w standalon 4th-es that they cannot easily access data stores 06:48:33 so u cant manipulate images for exapmle 06:48:35 onetom: disk server over serial line :) 06:48:57 Speuler: not really sufficent for megabyte sized images 06:49:06 Speuler: you mean you want to be hosting more than a 403 page? ;) 06:49:16 only problem ? 06:49:16 :) 06:49:28 how about memory management / swap ? 06:49:31 tho, it can ease the saving of the developped programs 06:49:40 user rights ? 06:49:41 Serg_Penguin: no need 2 have such 06:49:53 Serg_Penguin: again. theres no need for them 06:50:00 reliable preemptive m/task ? 06:50:07 Serg_Penguin: the same 06:50:35 Serg_Penguin: a forth os mainly could b usable 2 devel end user apps 06:50:47 yo-ho-ho, what can u do w/o memory protection ? 06:51:03 Serg_Penguin: what can run usually standalone later 06:51:08 Serg_Penguin: a lot? 06:51:12 Serg_Penguin: lots. take Mac os <=9.2 06:51:25 remember dos times and crashes every 10 minutes, and damn TSRs....... 06:51:39 --- join: jacereda (~crc@VA1-1G-u-0041.mc.onolab.com) joined #forth 06:51:53 Serg_Penguin: just because MS can't make a stable system, doesn't mean much. 06:51:58 Serg_Penguin: i also fear the abscence of mem protection, but finally ive understood 06:52:14 Serg_Penguin: Microsoft managed to make an Unstable OS With memory protection 06:52:37 Serg_Penguin: thats just a thing what encourages bad programming habits 06:52:46 no, NT line is damn stable 06:52:56 Serg_Penguin: maybe it is now 06:52:57 Serg_Penguin: its fat. unneeded complexity 06:54:01 Serg_Penguin: is u wanna have mem protection, redefine @ & ! for the time of development 06:54:30 Serg_Penguin: but later its not necessary 06:55:40 98 has NO memory protection remember 'magick cheat creator' - proggie changin life and money in game's address space 06:55:48 heh :) yeah if you want to debug forth code w/o mem protection, you can certainly have a vm that checks all memory accesses. 06:56:04 colorforth eg have preemptive multitasking 2 some extent afaik 06:56:18 it has two tasks. a bg & a fg 06:56:47 u can make both multithreaded using cooperative stuff 06:57:11 & its sufficient 2 have a stable devel machine 06:57:30 also 98 has cooperative m/task and no user rights - every freak is root 06:58:03 Serg_Penguin: its not true, ithink 06:58:18 98 cooperative? iirc 98 uses preemptive multitasking 06:58:57 Serg_Penguin: 98 is preemtive, althoug its mem prot facilities r terribly dumb 06:59:07 just try 'dead loop' proggie in 98, XP, Unix 06:59:16 the last cooperative windows was 3.11 06:59:24 pre-X macos versions used cooperative multitasking 06:59:43 i think 07:00:15 jacereda: yeah, that was said _just_ before you joined :) 07:01:05 Serg_Penguin: havent u read the low fat computing article yet? 07:01:33 i'm sorry to say this, jeff is a fanatic 07:01:44 the fox? 07:01:46 none, gimme URL ? 07:01:50 what article? 07:02:12 Serg_Penguin, Herkamire: ultratechnology.com 07:02:22 jeff fox likes to put lots of zeros in his numbers 07:02:32 like 1000x and so on 07:02:57 jacereda: have u read the 1x forth article & thoughtful programming? 07:02:58 jacereda: have faith :) 07:03:11 jacereda: have u also understood it? 07:04:01 jacereda: he not only likes to put those numbers, but have experienced those ratios 07:04:21 jacereda: tho, in very rare occasions 07:04:23 onetom: are you sure? do you have any fact? 07:04:46 jacereda: i saw some of his code freely available 07:04:54 time 2 run home... 07:05:10 onetom: and? have you seen equivalents in C? were those 1000x t 07:05:13 slower? 07:05:16 jacereda: the r not pretty much optimized but still clever enough, so i can believe him 07:05:36 onetom: yours is faith, i prefer facts 07:05:46 jacereda: he doesnt talks about 100% equvivalency 07:06:13 onetom: what are those ultraclever optimizations you talk about? 07:06:19 jacereda: u havent read those articles ________ enough 07:06:26 * onetom looks up _________ in the dict 07:06:27 onetom: yes, i did 07:06:51 onetom: i have followed ultratechnology for some time 07:06:53 carefully 07:08:25 c fans do say what gcc and watcom may outrun hand-coded asm 07:08:57 even perl is, maybe, 10x slower than asm, but _not_ 1000x 07:08:57 Serg_Penguin: thats a total stupidity 07:09:06 why ? 07:09:13 Serg_Penguin: a code generated by C can also b produced by hand 07:09:36 Serg_Penguin: mainly by a programmer of gcc who knows all the possible optimizations... 07:09:52 but u can't remember all commands and their timings, compiler can 07:10:10 hm, thats true 07:11:17 --- join: LuckyPhil (~phowlett@CPE-203-45-248-201.qld.bigpond.net.au) joined #forth 07:11:33 but the only thing what is proved by this, the x86 architecture is a pile of shit 07:11:40 even at Borland turbo pascal 7 (stupid thing), when i re-wrote demo inner loop in asm, it became 3-5 times faster, not 1000x 07:11:54 it cant be programmed efficiently wo complex tools 07:11:57 * jacereda would love to see one of jeff fox figures proven 07:12:20 hey guys 07:12:22 stack computers - rulez, CISC - suxx 07:12:27 hi LuckyPhil 07:12:32 whats w/ enth ? 07:12:43 Serg_Penguin: sure! that means u were not far from 1 of those 10x factors 07:12:44 i tryed to separate it from bootldr - fail 07:13:05 jeff seems to assume all the rest of the world is plain stupid, so they can't come up with better algorithms or things like that 07:13:07 haven't had much time to play with it i'm afraid 07:13:19 jacereda: enlist what r those 3 10x-es! 07:13:43 jacereda: imean, 1st u prove u really understood that article 07:14:02 at one case, by redesigning aloritm i got 17 times faster w/ same language - MS QuickBasic, task was brute-force 07:14:23 Serg_Penguin: nah, thats it! 07:14:50 Serg_Penguin: thats what jeff means by 1000x 07:15:29 onetom: i don't need to, i already noticed none of them was a 10x 07:15:50 jacereda: 10x is a - so 2 say - maximum 07:16:13 but given a problem you will never be 10x in all of them 07:16:16 jacereda: until u dont understand it, u understand nothing from those things what he tells 07:16:34 show me what a 1000x doom looks like 07:16:34 AAAALLL? who the fuck talks about ALL? 07:16:43 > LuckyPhil - unclear code, bootldr sets videomode 07:16:49 i doubt jeff does.. 07:17:17 jacereda: he doesnt even talks about recursivity.. 07:17:20 serg: Yea.. I know. its not very nice in doing that.. but it works 07:17:39 jacereda: an '1000x' optimized program cannat b '1000x' optimized again... 07:18:18 sometimes, optimisation is tossing away eye-candy 07:18:21 jacereda: doom has get its way through those 3 levels of that so called '10x' optimizations 07:18:29 uh? do you mean doom is thoughtful programming? 07:18:35 Serg_Penguin: for example... 07:18:42 Serg_Penguin: have u read that articel? 07:18:48 i can easily optimize 1000x any modern game 07:18:55 none, not read 07:18:56 jacereda: yep. pretty close to it 07:19:20 jacereda: tho, its source is still ugly in some places 07:19:24 onetom: then i can say you it isn't 4 kb... it isn't 40 kb... all its parts aren't optimized 07:19:38 compare ADOM and NOX or DungeonSiege 07:19:49 jacereda: how much is it? 07:19:59 jacereda: iirc its ~600k 07:19:59 --- quit: Serg_Penguin ("time to run home....") 07:20:23 --- part: LuckyPhil left #forth 07:20:33 jacereda: and it has used the midas sound lib, so its not integrated w it well 07:20:35 onetom: and what would jeff say about that? it would be a huge and inefficient program to his eyes 07:20:52 jacereda: im not sure... 07:21:12 onetom: but he would limit to just say that, instead of showing his 1000x doom. talking es cheap 07:21:17 s/es/is 07:21:27 jacereda: but dont forget that there is a lot of shit in doom because of the stupid x86 architecture 07:22:29 jacereda: he also had experiences w 3d software, so he probably know a lot about it 07:22:51 jacereda: u havent noticed a very important sentence in 1 of his writining 07:22:56 onetom: you put him as some sort of god... 07:23:32 jacereda: cant quote it in the very moment coz i can find (his website reminds me a red lampped house :) 07:23:51 onetom: and notice all the "probably" in your sentences 07:24:01 i got some kind of write access to forthfreak.net ready, if anybody want to put anything on... 07:24:09 volunteers ? 07:24:35 jacereda: but he said (sg like): "...these provoctive numbers r very good debate starters..." 07:25:10 jacereda: i dont put him, u do, and as such u also "deny him" 07:26:37 onetom: i only say that he prefers to talk than to actually give proofs 07:28:47 jacereda: VSLI CAD may be a proof. 07:28:56 colorforth, enth, aha and friends are cool, they make a pc look and feel like a c64 and that is not bad (i love to be in control and turning off my pc without asking him permission), but i wouldn't say they are a wonder 07:29:01 jacereda: I think the only way we will really know is to do it. 07:29:14 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 07:29:48 jacereda: ithink, i perfectly understood him, and what he talks about means a 2x-20x enhancement in usual cases 07:29:59 herkamire: that is fine, it is like saying "i only need a swiss armyknife to build my house", but that can't compete with current tools 07:30:31 I think this is an area where you can't really have proofs. It's like a diet. you can't prove that a diet will work for you. I can show you 10 people that it has worked for though. 07:31:03 jacereda: but i dont say i absolutely understand his & chucks vision 07:31:45 jacereda: not even jeff has managed 2 understand how can chucks programs b so slim, how does he avoids unneeded layers, and so on 07:32:06 jacereda: so dont expect me 2 explain these things 2 u right know 07:32:21 onetom: i can understand how they can be so slim, just cut your requirements 07:32:32 I'm hoping to learn some techniques from chuck and jeff, that will increase my efficiency 07:32:36 onetom: until you can do it in a couple of screens 07:32:39 jacereda: instead, come w me & lets help eachother in the research of these things 07:32:51 I think they are saying 1000x is the upper limit of what's possible. 07:32:58 this gives me a lot of room to grow :) :) 07:33:07 jacereda: cutting the requirements can help a lot, yes 07:33:13 onetom: i already studied colorforth sources and so on... that is what he did, cutting down requirements 07:33:34 jacereda: 2 a still useful level.. 07:33:50 to a minimum level 07:34:14 Herkamire: it was a very nice analogy ;) 07:34:57 Herkamire: not u r the only 1 who thinks 1000x is a kindof maximum 07:35:38 hey, even 10000x is possible if you recode some stupid's work 07:35:40 Herkamire: jeff also mentions it implicitly. u just have 2 read his writing w great attention 07:35:56 brb 07:36:24 Herkamire: and he likes 2 b implicit. coz i think he would like 2 actuate the read 2 think 07:36:30 jacereda: bye 07:37:55 jacereda: if we let microsoft do what it does for some more yrs, we gonna also have examples of 10000x 07:38:32 jacereda: and u can even prove it easily by simply comparing win3.1 with win2010 07:39:09 jacereda: the difference between 3.1 & xp is already above 10x. 07:39:27 jacereda: actually they prove what jeff talks about by theirself.. 07:39:56 b 07:40:31 onetom: 3.1 != xp 07:40:37 yup 07:40:55 * onetom is refering back 2 cutting the requirements... 07:41:12 but most users r happy w winword 6.0... 07:41:17 xp <= dos 07:41:31 and they dont even need a programmanager, filemanager and so on 07:41:43 onetom: I don't know about "happy". it's just they don't have anything better 07:42:23 length("xp") < length("dos"). simplify by length! u get xp < dos ;) 07:42:24 hey you will probably like this... wait 07:42:46 Herkamire: :D yeah, thats more accurate 07:43:10 Herkamire: tho, they would even b happy if it didnt fail sometimes 07:44:06 Herkamire: i think some weeks of work could make winword6 a pretty stable program... :/ 07:44:29 Herkamire: but the industry dont want 2 think so :) 07:45:33 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 07:46:18 oops, i forgot 2 grab my spectacles from the optican 07:46:20 brb 07:48:16 I was quite "happy" with mac os. then I found something better. now I'm quite unhappy with mac os (<=9.2) 07:49:08 it's the same software, but now I have something better, so I don't like mac os anymore. 07:49:50 (Mac OS 10 is pretty cool) 07:51:57 indeed 07:52:26 http://www.newdealinc.com/ 07:52:34 oops 07:52:38 gone 07:52:51 try this http://www.southcom.com.au/~pensey/newdeal.htm 07:52:59 it is an alternative for those windows-haters 07:53:10 it should run fine on a 486 07:57:23 I have a ppc 07:57:58 so do i 07:58:29 but it is a nice sample of what can be done coding with the head 07:58:49 (as oppossed to coding with the ass like m$ seems to do) 08:07:45 :DD nice saying -- coding w ass 08:08:25 how much does the newdeal thing cost? 08:13:39 i think its no available 4 yrs 08:13:46 like geos, eg 08:16:10 jacer: I tried newdeal in 98, it seemed like a geos/geoworks rehash 08:30:59 I have virtually no use for anything in the office suite 08:31:39 hmmm.. I guess I use an e-mail client. but you'd have to pay me a lot of money to use outlook 08:33:01 I want a mail client that is a 1K script that calls a POP fetcher, vim and qmail-inject. 08:37:43 xef4: yes, they are the geos guys 08:38:07 herka: bah, emacs rulez ;-) 08:40:28 jace: heh, didn't know. I just assumed it was a poor immitation by some random coders :-) 08:48:40 jacereda: emacs is a great lisp environment 08:48:58 herka: and a great newsreader, and a great irc client ;-) 08:49:13 ok. I have no use for that 08:49:28 bbl 08:49:41 I don't do newsgroups, and irssi does exactly what I want for an irc client 08:54:00 As a metric I did some analysis of code examples Chuck has provided. The numbers I find most interesting 08:54:03 is that the length of the average colon definition is 44 characters. The length of the longest colon 08:54:06 definition was 70 characters. 08:54:18 - Thoughtful Programming chapter 2 08:55:03 Heh. 08:55:15 That's factoring :) 09:11:33 I haven't run statistics. but our code for fpos is about that 09:12:12 Here's the bit we don't have: "The ratio of documentation text to source code text was 339/1." 09:12:42 Hah :) 09:30:25 --- join: Speuler_ (~l@p3E9B8EB7.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 09:30:51 Good evening :) 09:30:55 hi rob 09:30:56 Mr.. l 09:31:01 :) 09:34:03 Robert: you're still pingable. 09:34:20 What do you mean? 09:34:41 you got a steady dyn ip 09:35:29 Ah, cool! Both .de and .net works now :) 10:05:21 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust90.tnt2.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 10:52:15 Hey :) 10:52:53 http://www.forthfreak.net/ 10:52:56 :)) 10:53:12 pretty poor right now ... 10:53:27 just worked on the incremental backup. 10:53:42 so that write-access to all doesn't backfire 10:53:52 Okay. I'll work on a Forth page later. 10:54:11 Maybe even little Robert can contribute with _something_. 10:54:44 i contacted mhx, his domain name isn't nice. 10:55:01 and he may be able to add a few nice things 10:55:30 mhx? 10:55:38 i hold back searching my source archives. 10:55:54 some groundwork still to do ... 11:10:52 how would you call a word to compile 16 bits? 11:11:01 w, 11:11:12 like c, but twice as big :) 11:11:31 is this correct? 11:11:31 : w, base c@ if swap then dup 8 rshift c, c, ; 11:12:28 erm you mean to comma in two bytes or to comman in a word 11:12:31 thats not the same thing 11:12:42 w, would comma in a SINGLE 16 bit item 11:12:46 a 16bit word 11:12:51 not c, c, <-- that commas in two 8 bit items 11:13:18 isforth has w, to comma in a 16 bit item 11:13:21 notice the swap part... 11:13:21 code w, 11:13:24 pop eax 11:13:41 erm no 11:13:43 im doing this from memory heh and my memory sucks :) 11:13:48 mov eax, [hp] 11:13:53 mov word [eax], bx 11:13:54 pop ebx 11:14:06 add [hp], 2 11:14:24 erm fuck not HP but DP 11:14:30 hp is head space, dp is dictionary space 11:14:54 man i think i better go pour my coffee, ive not had one today and my brain is disfunctional :_) 11:14:59 but i don't need it to be fast 11:15:10 and anyway i'm working on arm 11:16:31 big endian: : w, dup 8 rshift c, c, ; 11:16:39 and i'm not even sure w, is a good name... my coworker always refers to word as the native wordsize 11:16:55 small endian: : w, dup c, 8 rshift c, ; \ I think 11:17:14 jacereda: I would call it h, 11:17:33 I was brought up thinking a word was 4 bytes. h for Half Word. 11:17:57 what endian is arm? 11:18:01 a word has ALWAYS been 16 bits 11:18:06 even on an 8 bit machine. 11:18:08 I440r: not on PPC 11:18:15 herka: both, but in my target it is little endian 11:18:16 32 bit machines CANT fucking redefine what a WORD is 11:18:21 32 bits is a DWORD 11:18:23 period 11:18:30 I440r: sorry dude :) 11:18:31 on your architecture, period 11:18:52 grrr :P 11:19:11 I440r: I know you're big on being the end all of terminology... but that terminology is specific to platform 11:19:49 herk no. 32 bit machiens are NEW 11:20:00 8 bit anmd 16 bit machines ALL called a 16 bit entity a WORD 11:20:14 what about 16, ? 11:20:21 along comes someone with a 32 bit machine and he tries to call a 32 bit entity a word 11:20:53 or 16b, 11:21:03 2, :) 11:21:07 1, 2, 4, :) 11:21:34 Yay. 11:21:40 oh, shit... let's make a poll ;-) 11:22:03 * Robert votes for obeying NASM's will. 11:22:11 w, :) 11:22:15 c, w, d, ? 11:22:29 w, should be for 16 bits 11:22:44 , is for 32 bits on a 32 bit machine 11:22:49 and c, for a char 11:23:43 Well... you can always use two names. 11:23:59 Why not make a new Forth standard where all the word names are different? ;) 11:24:18 bbl 11:24:55 Bye. 11:26:23 cause many good names are used already 11:26:33 you'd want new words 11:26:57 You maybe could use symbols. 11:27:09 that would be a realy neat method of obfuscating forth.... write a program in NORMAL forth then have a word to go thru the kernel and generate RANDOM renames on all words, then go thru the source file renameing all words to their new random name :) 11:27:20 I440r: :D 11:27:37 2+ could be %6y 11:27:42