00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.10.02 00:09:56 cyberlok: you know of a forth that has sockets (and examples), for writting an httpd 00:16:32 Klaw hopefully soon frugal 00:16:39 and also isforth is working on it too 00:18:27 frugal has one written up in the latest version 00:19:02 if you make a good httpd in frugal 4th let me know 00:19:15 I know fractal the maker of frugal is working on it too 00:19:35 but I think he should pay more attention to making his engine then the extra progs 00:32:28 --- quit: Chef_ ("Client Exiting") 00:34:57 --- quit: Klaw (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:38:34 --- join: bwb (~bwb@ip68-4-124-131.oc.oc.cox.net) joined #forth 00:47:45 hello bwb 00:55:02 Sup, onetom? 01:01:48 busy w everyday linux related problems :( 01:01:59 not much time 2 tinker w 4th 01:02:16 :( 01:02:33 tho, im also busy reading the UTC.com by nights :) 01:03:04 Good to hear. 01:03:08 levels of 4th, jeff fox biography, essay about forth and the like 01:03:27 and how good is it 2 read! :) 01:03:28 By the way, did I say I implemented ARC4 encryption/random number generation in forth? 01:03:41 no! 01:03:44 not yet 01:03:49 url? 01:04:00 & what 4th implementation? 01:04:18 My own: frugal. 01:04:24 http://www.hcsw.org/frugal/ 01:04:36 It's in the progs/ directory of the tarball. 01:04:58 Along with a primitive httpd. 01:05:00 i also read some mins b4 that u r about 2 write a net tic tac toe 01:05:04 Not nearly done yet. 01:05:07 oh! :) 01:05:13 Heh. Yeah, I'm working on that as we speak. 01:05:26 u r very productive nowdays 01:05:57 I try. :) 01:06:13 Actually, I'm pretty productive usually, but I've just started to really fool with forth. 01:06:15 same on me, i did nothing useful these days :) 01:07:41 dup c@ char, G = if 01:07:42 char+ dup c@ char, E = if 01:07:42 char+ dup c@ char, T = if 01:07:53 hehe, its a bit "unrolled" isnt it? 01:07:54 Heh, yeah, I was gonna improve that. 01:08:22 I just put that in as a quick hack. I'm going to have some sort of "find" word or something. 01:09:13 --- quit: Speuler ("aml. are you alive now?") 01:09:16 : c= dup c@ char, .... = ; 01:09:54 i also immagined this solution, so we dont need string manipulation 01:10:11 but this is only the 0th phase ;) 01:10:16 Maybe.. I was thinking something like : compare ( caddr1 caddr2 len -- flag ) ... ; 01:10:24 and does it really work? 01:10:46 The httpd? 01:10:48 thats much more sophisticated of course 01:10:51 Ya. 01:10:54 yes 01:11:10 Yeah, it can server documents to multiple clients simultaneously. 01:11:30 BUT, it doesn't protect against, like GET /../../etc/passwd yet 01:11:44 s/server/serve/ 01:11:52 Yeah, serve. 01:12:42 multiple clients? how come? 01:12:55 It fork()s for each client. 01:13:03 Creates a new process. 01:13:09 ah, in proc main 01:13:13 Ya. 01:13:30 unfortunately i dont know much about multitaskin 01:13:52 not just multitasking under linux 01:14:09 what does fork do exactly? 01:14:52 Well, basically, when you call fork(), it creates 2 new processes, with exactly the same code, stackframes, etc, except in the first process, the fork() returns 0, and in the other it returns the PID of the other process. 01:15:15 ayay, gotta go away soon for ~ an hour 01:15:25 Cool. Later. 01:15:35 aham, c 01:15:59 but its a huge waste of memory, isnt it? 01:16:10 * onetom is taking clothes on 01:16:26 s/waste/wasting/ 01:16:35 No, not necessarily. Actually, it only copies the sections that get written too, otherwise they share the memory. 01:16:41 It's called "Copy On Write". 01:16:52 s/sections/blocks 01:17:09 ugh.. 01:17:13 Note also, they share file descriptors and sockets. 01:17:25 It's actually quite efficient. It's the tactic apache uses. 01:17:46 i know sg about the protected mode of i386, but still cant immagine 01:18:08 Yeah, well it's a unix thing. :) 01:18:11 how can it b possible 2 manage a so complicated memory map :) 01:18:28 it can be done 01:18:29 :) 01:18:54 sure, coz it works :) 01:19:39 Well, that's the good thing about unix. Everything is built up from small components. 01:19:47 Kind of like forth. 01:20:18 hehe 01:20:28 * cyberlok points out his distro goes along the same concept 01:20:28 As somebody said it "Unix is good because it allows programmers to stand on the shoulders of others. Unix is one of the design masterpieces of the 20th century". 01:21:16 Or something like that. 01:22:30 & its true isnt it? ;) 01:22:35 Definitley. :) 01:25:12 im very curious how would these little programs look like if 01:25:32 they would have been written in chucks style 01:25:55 Fractal: aint u curious about it? aint u interested in chucks style? 01:26:06 that 1 or 2 lines / def ? 01:26:21 Yeah, well chuck is a minimalist. I don't necessarily agree with all his ideas. 01:26:29 But it would be interesting. 01:26:37 i doubt it 01:26:51 i thought so some month ago 01:26:57 too 01:27:07 What do you mean? 01:27:20 --- join: Klaw` (chuck@ip68-4-243-214.oc.oc.cox.net) joined #forth 01:27:20 --- quit: Klaw` (Remote closed the connection) 01:27:20 --- mode: ChanServ set +b Klaw`!*@* 01:27:34 but im getting touched by his new ideas and eg by the tail recursion construct 01:27:59 Ah yes, the eradication of loops. :) 01:28:18 Interestingly, that's one of the core ideas in many versions of lisp. 01:28:21 i havent even understood that 4 the 1st time 01:28:32 when i read it 01:29:02 i hardly know anything about lisp 01:29:39 You should look into it. It involves some of the same ideas of forth. 01:30:14 However, one of the great things about lisp is that executable code and data are used interchangably. 01:30:30 i read some intro 2 lisp ~2yrs ago 01:30:42 but i havent even tried it 01:30:52 It's similar to forth, for instance, you might do something like (+ (- 90 34) 3) 01:31:09 That would be 3+(90-34) 01:31:13 yeah i have some faint ideas about it 01:31:29 and i also know some tcl 01:31:54 Hm. I've never used TCL. That's a C wrapper library for graphics programming, no? 01:31:57 so im not absolutely unfamiliar w this list structure 01:32:00 Or is that GTK? 01:32:12 no, its also a list base stuff 01:32:22 Oh, interesting. 01:32:35 but it works simply by text substitution 01:32:50 Oh yeah... 01:32:59 tk (ToolKit) is the graphical extension 2 it 01:33:21 Yeah, I've never done any graphical programming of any signifigance. 01:33:36 but it doesnt use any widget lib. its pure X but much more sophisticated than xaw 01:33:40 A little java applet stuff, but that's it. 01:34:01 What editor do you use, onetom? 01:34:05 so its also fun 2 learn the basics of tcl 01:34:07 vi 01:34:12 Ya, me too. 01:34:30 but im getting fed up w its quirky programming capabilities 01:34:32 I'm thinking, we should make an editor -similar to vi- in forth. 01:34:39 vim actually of course 01:34:45 agree 01:34:53 Bah, I don't like vim much. 01:35:01 They're trying to turn vi into emacs. 01:35:06 but ncurses firghtens me faaar away from any app 01:35:09 I like elvis and nvi. 01:35:17 what requires screen manipulation 01:35:39 i like vim because of the syntax highlite stuff 01:35:49 but now, i really hafta go 01:35:52 bfn 01:35:54 I find highlighting distracting. 01:35:54 bbl 01:35:58 Okay, see ya soon. 01:35:59 i dont :) 02:11:12 Ok, peace out. G'night folks. 04:02:13 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 04:02:32 hi 04:03:28 hi 04:04:14 what do u work on now? 04:14:45 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 04:30:14 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 04:30:35 re hi 04:44:16 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 05:21:22 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 05:21:44 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Client Quit) 05:59:13 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 06:00:39 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Client Quit) 06:07:57 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 06:22:28 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 06:22:39 re hi 06:23:18 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Client Quit) 06:25:10 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 06:56:28 --- join: tathi (~josh@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 06:58:47 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 06:59:05 re hi 07:00:13 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Client Quit) 07:00:23 hmm... 07:57:55 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust31.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 08:02:07 --- quit: XeF4 ("pois") 08:54:32 --- nick: dmiles -> dmiles_afk 10:24:50 I found the linux kernel version 0.01 hahah 10:25:03 lol 10:25:16 doesnt he still have all the old versions of linux on the ftp ? 10:25:22 all of a 71k tarball 10:25:37 thats still fucking huge 10:25:40 it lacks even code for a HD at that stage 10:25:47 fdisk actually 10:25:56 and many others 10:26:21 yeah at this stage most of the kernel is written in assembler if you can believe that 10:26:44 it was in later versions he converted all of it into C 10:26:58 it would be better if he had kept it in assembler 10:27:08 fucking moron 10:27:18 actually, ive not seen his assembler 10:27:23 well that would have killed linux's portability 10:27:26 maybe its BAD assembler and he was right to convert it to c 10:27:36 who gives a fuck about portability 10:27:41 its a fucking myth anyway 10:27:50 hahah the sounds of a true asm programmer 10:29:07 well I am sad that stampede stopped 10:29:11 that distro was so cool 10:29:25 they actually converted a lot of sections of the kernel into asm 10:29:33 so that it would be smaller and faster 10:29:48 it was a wickedly fast distro 10:29:59 but x86 was assumed 10:30:53 cyberlok 71k tarball = .tar.gz? 10:31:01 yup 10:32:09 * Herkamire wonder's how mythical his PPC linux kernel is... 10:32:50 * Herkamire thinks he is using it to run this chat program (and other things) 10:33:26 mythical ? 10:33:48 Herkamire asm programmers in general dont believe in porting 10:34:03 in thier view it is not efficient to do it that way 10:34:23 that to better use the new hardware a new foundation must be layed 10:35:20 I440r: I don't know where you get off saying a 71k tarball is fucking huge 10:35:30 to asm programmers it is 10:35:36 seeing as isforth 1.09b is about 103k 10:35:40 I have a mini OS written in NASM here all of 2k 10:35:58 err 10:36:14 well, 80-something bzipped 10:36:16 I440r he has a point ;) 10:36:21 but still :) 10:37:17 no its not 10:37:22 its 86836 bytes 10:37:35 :P 10:38:14 but MY sources have ALOT of comments in them 10:38:16 * cyberlok reprograms I440r to be a better programmer in NASM (is that even possible?? program a programmer.. hmmm) 10:38:21 71k for amost totally uncommented source is FUCKING HUGE 10:39:05 haha for NASM isforth you better ;) 10:39:29 ok...I haven't seen the linux 0.1 sources... 10:39:36 have you seen how big linux kernel tarball is now? 10:39:44 can you say 26mb ? 10:40:24 gimme a sec I will give you a link 10:40:31 it is hosted on a rather slow au site 10:41:29 http://www.au.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/Historic/linux-0.01.tar.gz 10:42:22 its on ALL the kernel.org mirrors 10:42:25 in the same place 10:42:37 its where I found it sheesh 10:42:42 gimme a break ;) 10:42:53 hehe :) 10:42:57 Im gonna try and build distros to build these kernels 10:43:07 nothing but a waste of time project 10:43:48 I want to get a 1.x kernel compiled though 10:43:58 it has 386 network support and my network card 10:44:07 and has minix support 10:44:18 everything my current distro needs 10:44:26 should be interesting 10:44:38 I am curious as to what size it would end up being and if it would even work 10:46:34 :) 10:46:46 I think Linus's asm is better than his C... 10:47:19 heh 10:47:25 not that that's saying much... 10:48:18 or maybe I'm just better at reading am 10:48:20 asm 10:48:42 look at the comment in boot.s hehe 10:49:00 this is a 64k system, this shouldnt be a problem even in the future, i want to keep it simple.... 10:49:07 guess he lost sight of that goal along the way 10:50:12 heh 10:50:39 you ever compile 2.5.x kernel in minimal config 10:50:55 can you say no lower then 800K bzImage 10:51:19 by 3.x they will have 1mb minimal kernels 10:51:30 ouch 10:51:45 now consider this 10:51:47 same kernel 10:51:55 same features everything no extras 10:52:13 2.2.21 == 300k 2.4.18 == 450k 10:52:28 where the fuck is the other 150k compressed data comming from 10:52:38 150k compressed is a lot of shit 10:53:26 ohh I also patch the shit to get better compression 10:53:48 so regular linux source is like 2.2.21 == 400k 2.4.18 == 550k 10:54:01 ah well, give it another year and I doubt I'll still be using Linux anyway... 10:54:04 2.4.18 is 1/2 a meg 10:54:25 but theres 28493756239846523478 different kernels in there 10:54:28 not just one' 10:54:45 I just think they need to have another team run through the code and rip shit out that is not needed that is being compiled in 10:55:09 in practical application a 2.2.21 kernel and 2.4.18 kernel of the same specs should be nearly the same 10:56:02 i.e. ist mostly deadwood ? 10:56:18 I am betting big that the difference is deadwood 10:56:30 and in a minimal world deadwood is evil 10:56:34 might as well be windows 10:57:05 I did make a 586 mp3 player based on win98 10:57:16 isforth has a bit of deadwood in it but i have plans to minimize that 10:57:27 ran out of its dos changed shell with command.com 10:57:35 i just need that metacompiler and assembler and i can carry out my plans for deadwood removal 10:57:40 and then I get long filenames and no crashing since explorer is not running 10:57:56 isforth has A LOT of deadwood ;) 10:58:13 not realy, all you have to do is 10:58:22 cp isforth.f foo.f 10:58:26 edit foo.f 10:58:30 comment out whats not needed 10:58:39 and change the fsave isforth to fsave foo 10:58:42 then ./kernel.com 10:58:43 fload foo.f 10:58:44 ok imagine I have 400 apps to compile in isforth 10:58:51 you _still_ putting off writing an assembler? 10:59:07 im stuck - the assembler is harder than the compiler 10:59:24 i made a start but its going to take a while for me to figure some things out 10:59:31 and im procrastinating 10:59:41 haha I440r is in the "I have a huge skull full of brains" area 11:00:26 exactly 11:00:31 if I win like a 200 million lotto I will automate my house in 4th ;) 11:01:32 cuz of 4th modular theme it is almost perfect when you think about it 11:03:35 well duh...almost anything is harder than a forth compiler :) 11:04:16 if i had some help it might motovate me a little more 11:04:28 well the theory of 4th has it able to do multitasking way better then any other code typw 11:04:30 type 11:04:46 * cyberlok has been reading all kinds of 4th docs 11:04:50 if I had an x86 box I'd help you :) 11:05:02 forth multi tasking is neat. 11:05:04 make 4th for none x86 :) 11:05:11 i need to get some tasking code written eventually 11:05:18 but i want to use fork and clone in isforth 11:05:28 to avoid having to use user variables 11:05:31 i hate user variables 11:05:52 well depends on who you are coding it for 11:06:02 if your coding it for yourself then its ok 11:06:17 but I am sure someone will look at yours want user variables and throw that in too 11:06:37 as anything linux 11:07:01 hence why my distro is like ultra moldable 11:09:26 user variables? 11:24:04 what are user variables? 11:24:43 Per-task/-thread VARIABLEs for Forth. 11:26:59 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 11:33:20 isforth is fucking HUGE 11:33:40 it is 11:33:53 but alot of whats NOT an option will become optionable later 11:34:02 it will be very minimal with ALOT of options :) 11:34:23 whatever 11:34:29 write an assembler 11:34:37 well compilers are always huge Herkamire 11:34:45 always 11:35:17 not good ones 11:35:27 hmmm 11:35:32 the "good ones" 11:35:36 if you factor well, and aren't set on having syntax, or supporting all instructions, it can be quite small 11:35:40 usually link to libraries and cheat like that 11:35:47 so they can say they are small 11:35:56 which is not fair in real world terms 11:36:08 in real world terms glibc is huge! 11:36:18 and is needed for almost every app out there for linux 11:36:23 what real world? 11:36:40 I would prefer to live in the comfort of my own computer generated reality 11:36:54 haha 11:56:56 --- quit: 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#forth 16:39:54 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again!") 16:44:30 --- join: I440r (mark4@1Cust31.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 17:07:17 --- quit: Kitanin (": war postpone peace ; immediate : freedom postpone slavery ; immediate : ignorance postpone strength ; immediate") 17:19:47 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 17:28:01 --- join: skylan (sjh@Sprint8102.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 18:45:12 --- part: I440r left #forth 18:52:29 --- join: I440r (mark4@1Cust31.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 19:42:32 I440r: r u here? 19:43:30 no 19:44:06 :P 19:44:09 whussup 19:44:13 :) ah, so u must b the rabbit 19:44:37 from winnie the pooh, uknow 19:44:49 i saw u talkin about forking 19:45:04 did u know frugal already has fork? 19:45:28 & the next version gonna have spoon too! 19:45:44 lol 19:45:54 no knife ? 19:46:05 but seriously, there is a httpd example what uses fork 19:46:11 no, just wife 19:46:41 Work In Forth Ever 19:47:10 what do u know about forking? 19:48:18 its a syscall and it returns twice 19:48:25 how can the forked processes communicate? 19:48:35 w eachother, of course 19:48:51 shm via shared memory or with a pipe ? 19:49:10 signals ? 19:49:22 did u ever tried 2 write such programs? 19:49:35 not yet 19:49:50 i think CLONE is a better way to go if you want the child to be able to communicate with the parent 19:50:05 fractal said it works in a "copy on demand" manner 19:50:31 does clone use fork inherently? 19:52:26 fork == clone with a specific parameter set. 19:52:43 TreyB: thx 19:53:30 --- join: Speuler (~l@pD9502560.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 19:53:33 clone provides more flexibility in what kinds of things get shared. 19:55:15 'morning 19:55:15 but its linux only 19:55:20 fbsd doesnt have a clone syscall 19:55:37 but it has fork, i guess 19:55:51 yes 21:08:16 It's "Copy On Write", actually. 21:09:10 And yeah, interprocess communication should be done through pipes or sockets for sequential communication, and shared memory for, um not sequential communications. :) 21:10:06 Frugal is about 3-4 hours of work away from cooperative multitasking using PAUSE, so forking processes may not be the best way to do it for long. 21:11:07 :) 21:11:43 Hm, yeah frugal has socket support now, but the API is lame. 21:11:51 I'm working on that. 21:13:02 Does isforth have locals, I440r? 21:13:05 fractal did i send you my sockets code ? 21:13:24 no 21:13:36 No. You doing a release soon? 21:14:07 i can send u my meager sockets code if you want 21:14:20 im trying to get dns queries sorted out then ill release it officially 21:14:52 Cool. You doing direct wrapping of the syscalls socket(), connect(), accept(), etc? 21:15:12 Hm. If you could give me a URL, that'd be good. 21:15:17 yes 21:15:24 well 21:15:25 thers not alot there yet 21:15:31 i dont have sendto or recievefrom 21:15:40 havent coded accept etc 21:15:45 Bah, all you need is read() and write(). 21:15:54 i kinda need to figure out how i want to handle signals too 21:15:54 hang on 21:16:40 OKI 21:16:46 OK, I mean. 21:17:06 well i have those hehe 21:28:05 --- join: rk (~rk@gen3-camarillo8-206.vnnyca.adelphia.net) joined #forth 21:28:33 i like forth ;)_ 21:29:58 What do you like about it? 21:30:14 i ... just ... like it ;)_ 21:30:27 Do you program in it? 21:30:36 i'm not too good at it 21:30:45 i havent been using it long 21:33:26 * rk is away: g2g 21:33:53 --- quit: rk (Remote closed the connection) 21:34:14 eep a new forther and i missed him :) 21:34:34 Heh. 21:47:57 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 22:35:20 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 22:35:28 hi 22:35:46 hi 22:35:48 ltns 22:36:13 ltns ? 22:37:24 long time no see 22:37:25 heh 22:38:35 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Client Quit) 22:38:50 Shafted. :) 22:41:15 he is sorta weird :P 22:41:28 Heh. Ya. 22:41:33 but then - he is russian :) 22:41:36 Ruskie, right? 22:41:39 Yeah. 22:41:40 i still havent figured him out 22:42:07 Good morning, #forth! 22:42:38 morron 22:42:41 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 22:42:43 Gooooooooooood morning vietnam! 22:43:05 Right. 22:43:08 :) 22:43:26 Robert : You check out my pong.fs? 22:44:51 anyone here know a lot about cisco 678's? 22:44:53 hi Robert 22:45:00 I have a unique question 22:45:03 Fractal: Nope, what's that? 22:45:13 Hi sergy. 22:45:18 Robert : My own pong. 22:45:24 pong.fs is a cool pong game 22:45:33 This is the robert that wrote the isforth pong, right? 22:45:41 does isforth have a different version 22:45:57