00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.09.29
00:00:29 * Xuz , incidentally, plugs TeXmacs, just because it has proven itself to be wonderful in the past few weeks.
00:00:38 <Herkamire> I'd kinda like a list down one side of the screen that showed who was on in the channel.
00:00:59 <Xuz> I'm not sure if it'd be worthwhile having it all the time in a text-client.
00:01:29 <Herkamire> Xuz: I'm not sure either
00:02:31 <Herkamire> I don't think it would be intrusive though. I have 118 chars across this thing, I could space 15 for a list of names.
00:02:39 <Xuz> I think you'd end up missing the real-estate.
00:02:41 <Xuz> 118 chars?
00:02:50 <Xuz> Okay, I'm used to 80 :)
00:02:59 <Herkamire> oh, 114 :)
00:03:34 <air> heh
00:03:42 <Herkamire> that's in xterm. in the terminal I have 128
00:04:06 <Xuz> Weirdo :)
00:04:06 * Xuz likes his big fonts.
00:04:23 <Herkamire> :) me too, but on a 17 monitor...
00:05:06 <Herkamire> I have xterm set to use the "Huge" font. and that's 114
00:05:36 <Herkamire> anyway, in jabber I'd want the list showing
00:06:15 <Herkamire> right now my jabber client just prints out the html recieved (in yellow)
00:06:44 <Herkamire> s/html/xml/
00:07:16 <Herkamire> <understatement>somewhat lacking in the interface department</understatement>
00:07:57 * Xuz laughs
00:08:00 <Herkamire> if only I could decide how it should work...
00:08:13 <Xuz> Well, I should resume work on mine, just because there IS no MH-inspired IM client that I know of.
00:08:58 <Herkamire> I've never used MH.
00:11:14 <Xuz> Oh.  It's a wonderful email client (I quit using it simply because it doesn't do threads and I'm on mailing lists) that allows you to fiddle with email without having a separate program.
00:11:22 <Xuz> There's a send command, you send a message and it zips off.
00:11:27 <Xuz> There's a command that prints out a list of messages.
00:11:30 <Xuz> There's a command that prints a message.
00:11:32 <Xuz> And so on.
00:11:59 <Xuz> While that kind of decentralized approach isn't necessary for email (I found the threading more beneficial than the flexibility), I think it WOULD be useful for a text-based IM client.
00:19:49 <Herkamire> that doesn't sound like what I want for an im client (maybe e-mail)
00:20:23 * Xuz nods, "I just think it'd be useful since instead of taking up a whole VC/Xterm it would simply pop up a notice and you could suspend whatever you were in and reply, or whateve.'
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00:20:45 <Herkamire> for im, I want an interface like chat programs. I want to see a listing (in order) of what we have said to eachother recently, and I want to be able to type stuff (without some sort of command at the begining) and have it go right to whoever I'm talking to
00:21:16 * Xuz waves to thin
00:21:23 <Herkamire> hey futhin :)
00:21:40 <thin> sup
00:21:43 <thin> i'm extremely drunk
00:21:46 <thin> i drove home
00:21:51 * Xuz is becoming drunk :)
00:21:53 <thin> against all recommendations by my friends
00:21:57 <thin> seriously
00:22:02 <thin> i'm 120% drunk
00:22:16 <Herkamire> Xuz: I haven't worked out completely how I want to be notified of things. in my os, there may be some centralized system for attention getting.
00:22:37 <Xuz> You're writing your own OS?
00:22:42 <thin> yeah i am
00:22:44 <thin> in forth
00:22:47 * Xuz has been thinking about one, still plotting and scheming.
00:22:53 <thin> working on the machineforht vm
00:23:07 * Xuz makes another face.  Camo High Gravity Lager is the second-most-disgusting intoxicating beverage he's ever tasted.
00:23:14 <thin> and then going to incroporate ideas from
00:23:20 <thin> jef raskin's humane interface book
00:23:21 <Herkamire> Xuz: I will, lately I've mostly been watching Tathi do it :)
00:23:54 <Herkamire> "humane"?? lol
00:24:27 <thin> it is tho
00:24:30 <thin> it's modeless
00:24:36 <thin> monotonous
00:24:37 <thin> and unified
00:24:42 <thin> and it's scary
00:24:44 <thin> because
00:24:45 <Xuz> Tathi?
00:24:57 * Xuz wants to see an interface that combines the best of the awful GUI and the wonderful command-line.
00:25:02 <thin> becaue i fell it compells one to be WAYYY more productive
00:25:09 <thin> because it's entirely content-based
00:25:13 <thin> there's really nothign to do in it
00:25:16 <thin> except create content
00:25:18 <thin> or play games
00:25:20 <thin> heh
00:25:28 <thin> GUI is a flawed interface
00:25:36 <thin> in some ways, the humane interface is gui
00:25:38 <thin> but its' not relaly
00:25:43 <thin> it has a zoomable
00:25:46 <thin> interface paradigm
00:25:46 <thin> hm
00:25:50 <thin> the book is awesome
00:25:57 <thin> (i'm drunk here, so i'm talkative)
00:26:01 <thin> the book
00:26:02 <thin> is logical
00:26:12 * Xuz is also drunk, so he empathizes :)
00:26:13 <thin> and the major things are defined clearly
00:26:29 <thin> the book starts with the human cognitive abilities
00:26:36 <thin> we only have one locus of attention
00:26:43 <thin> but we can do multiple things because of _habit_
00:26:45 <thin> so
00:26:48 <thin> a good interface
00:27:03 <thin> is something that is habitative..
00:27:08 <thin> (wrong word..)
00:27:09 <thin> hmm
00:27:09 * Xuz thinks. . . . 
00:27:15 <thin> you can habituate yourself to the interface
00:27:20 <thin> and thus
00:27:25 <Xuz> We need an archetypal interface based on the fundaments of Jungian psychology!
00:27:26 <thin> focus only on what you want to achieve
00:27:44 <thin> let me expound on modelessness
00:27:59 <thin> vi
00:28:02 <thin> has command mode
00:28:06 <thin> and input mode
00:28:08 <thin> and
00:28:09 <thin> vi is gay
00:28:11 <thin> because of that
00:28:15 <thin> because
00:28:18 <thin> if vi is loaded
00:28:23 <Xuz> VI is not modal!
00:28:27 <thin> and you walk into the room and start typing content you want
00:28:34 * Xuz threatens Thin with dire consequences.
00:28:37 <Xuz> VI just has commands.
00:28:37 <thin> you don't know if you are in command mode or iput mode
00:28:40 <thin> lol
00:28:41 <thin> xuz
00:28:43 <thin> it's modal
00:28:48 <Xuz> It has an 'insert' command that takes an argument.  Said argument is text.
00:28:55 <thin> lots of vi users make modal errors
00:29:01 <Xuz> It has delete commands that take arguments.
00:29:10 <Xuz> That is because they do not truly understand the way of VI :)
00:29:35 * Herkamire likes vim
00:30:07 <thin> no
00:30:16 <thin> you don't know if it's in command mode or input mode
00:31:22 <Xuz> It's not a mode.
00:31:36 <thin> yes it is
00:31:54 <thin> if the same gestures mean something different
00:31:59 <thin> then its in a different mode..
00:32:04 <thin> i'm a bit drunk
00:32:07 <thin> so my logic is a little off
00:32:13 <thin> but i think you'd get it anyways :)
00:32:20 <thin> mannn
00:32:21 <thin> i
00:32:22 <thin> i'm
00:32:38 <thin> 120% drunk and i drove home against all recommendations by my friends, loll
00:32:44 * Xuz pits his drunken logic against Thin's.
00:32:57 <Xuz> Not at all.  Let's say I have a function like strcat
00:33:03 <Xuz> Or, since this is a forth channel. . . . . . 
00:34:15 <Xuz> Let's say I have + and I have sliteral.
00:34:17 <Xuz> Now.
00:34:30 <Xuz> If I have 52 37 on the stack, + will be quite happy.
00:34:31 <Xuz> sliteral will (most likely) die horribly.
00:34:38 <Xuz> That doesn't mean that I enter '+ mode' and 'sliteral mode'
00:34:45 <Xuz> It just means I have different paremeters.
00:34:50 <Xuz> i doesn't enter "insert mode"
00:35:01 <Xuz> It simply lets you enter the parameter for the insert function.
00:35:06 * Herkamire reads the summary of Humane Interfaces just because he thinks it's a great title (and he is interested in good computer/human interfaces)
00:35:49 <thin> no
00:35:53 <thin> the internet site is crap
00:35:56 <thin> it'll turn you off
00:35:58 <thin> the book
00:36:00 <thin> is the only good
00:36:02 <thin> source
00:36:05 <thin> especially
00:36:07 <thin> since it
00:36:18 <thin> builds from axioms that you can agree with
00:38:22 <thin> herkamire: i seriously recommend the book to all
00:38:26 <thin> it's a well written book
00:38:31 <thin> very unambigous
00:38:53 * Xuz will look it up.
00:39:08 <thin> i get all my books from the library practicall
00:39:08 <thin> y
00:39:10 <Herkamire> any chance it would be in the library?
00:39:22 <thin> probably will be
00:39:24 <thin> it was in mine
00:39:31 <thin> do interlibrary loan if it isnt
00:39:33 <thin> its worth it
00:39:39 <thin> and you only need to wait 3 weeks
00:39:40 <thin> heh
00:41:00 <Herkamire> I like this bit: "It is better to provide only one way of accomplishing a task when the time lost in deciding which method to use is greater than the time lost by choosing the slower of the methods."
00:41:20 * Xuz isn't sure if he agrees with that.
00:41:28 <thin> well that's that monotonous definitions
00:41:29 <thin> er
00:41:31 <thin> definition
00:41:32 <thin> you've got the
00:41:35 <thin> modelss
00:41:37 <thin> modeless
00:41:40 <thin> then the monotonous
00:41:42 <thin> then the unified
00:41:51 <thin> it's like forth
00:41:55 <thin> forth is kind of monotonous
00:41:59 <thin> but you can still achieve stuff
00:42:04 <thin> by stringing words together
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00:45:15 * Xuz yaaawns
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00:46:55 <Herkamire> I'm getting more interested in this book
00:47:05 * Xuz waves to OneTom
00:47:08 <thin> it is a very good book
00:47:11 <Xuz> Oh?
00:47:14 <Xuz> Oh.
00:47:18 <thin> i really admire the writing style
00:47:22 <thin> because he defines all the major words
00:47:28 <thin> in order to prevent ambiguousness
00:47:30 * Xuz really should hunt it down.
00:47:32 <Xuz> Who's the author?
00:47:35 <thin> because his ideas are kind of radical
00:47:37 <thin> jef raskin
00:48:02 <thin> because his ideas are kind of radical, he really makes an effort to make it logical, and to show the train of logic
00:50:57 <Herkamire> Xuz: I typed "humane interfaces" into google and it came out right on top
00:55:12 * Xuz sorries, he's not entirely with it.
00:58:57 <Herkamire> well, it's just about 4am here... time for bed I think.
00:59:13 <thin> 2 am here
00:59:21 <Xuz> Have fun.
00:59:21 <thin> and i gotta get up at 9:45 am :/
00:59:24 <thin> and i'm drunk as hell
00:59:29 <thin> gotta drink watter
00:59:30 <thin> heh
00:59:45 <Herkamire> definately water yourself?
00:59:53 <Xuz> Definitely water.
00:59:55 <Herkamire> s/?/!/
00:59:58 * Xuz continues drinking alcohol, however.
01:00:27 --- quit: Herkamire ("goodnight")
01:00:38 <thin> supppp air
01:00:42 <thin> supppp cyberlok
01:00:46 <thin> sup dmiles
01:00:48 <thin> sup ianni
01:00:52 <thin> sup kitanin
01:00:55 <thin> sup klaw
01:00:59 <thin> sup onetom
01:01:02 <thin> sup robert
01:01:04 <thin> sup skylan
01:01:13 <thin> sup speuler
01:01:15 <thin> sup thin
01:01:17 <thin> sup trey
01:01:18 <thin> sup treyb
01:01:20 <thin> sup xuz
01:01:21 <Xuz> sup?
01:01:30 <thin> sup = what's up
01:02:16 * Xuz aaahs
01:02:28 <thin> you never knew that?
01:02:30 <thin> sup is very common 
01:02:32 <thin> :P
01:02:47 <Xuz> The number of things I haven't heard of can amaze some people.
01:03:17 <thin> well if you don't watch t.v or irc much, then it's understandable ;)
01:03:51 <Xuz> I IRC a fair bit.
01:06:02 <thin> hmm
01:06:04 <thin> bed time for me
01:06:08 <thin> laters all
01:06:13 <thin> i'm sooooooo drunk
01:06:17 <thin> and i'm typing normally
01:06:17 <thin> hah
01:06:19 <thin> that's me
01:06:37 <thin> i have to expend effort, while i'm drunk, to type drunk like!
01:06:42 <thin> (seriously(
01:06:47 <thin> latez
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01:07:29 <Xuz> What a strange man :)
01:07:39 * Xuz also goes off to wallow in druken stupor.
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03:53:26 <Robert> Good morning.
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04:30:31 <Speuler> morning rob
05:03:51 <Robert> :)
05:04:01 <Robert> I got my DOES> to work.
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05:39:25 <Speuler> good
05:40:33 <Speuler> : foo  begin create does> again  ;
05:41:22 <Speuler> : bar create does> recurse ;
05:41:30 <Robert> Heh.
05:41:53 <Speuler> does not what you might expect :)
05:42:07 <Robert> I try to avoid things like that.
05:42:24 <Speuler> but this can be very useful
05:42:34 <Robert> What does it do then?
05:42:47 <Speuler> think about it
05:43:45 <Speuler> both should work the same. but sometimes, foo cannot be used because of structure correctness test in "again"
05:45:38 <Speuler> : bar create , does> recurse ;
05:45:56 <Speuler> variable top
05:46:01 <Speuler> top var x1
05:46:05 <Speuler> x1 bar y1
05:46:10 <Speuler> y1 bar z1
05:46:16 <Speuler> x1 bar y2
05:46:18 <Speuler> x1 bar y3
05:46:29 <Speuler> y3 bar z2
05:46:31 <Speuler> y3 bar z3
05:46:34 <Speuler> :)
05:46:54 <Speuler> a tree
05:47:08 * Robert thinks that looks evil.
05:47:42 <Speuler> it probably is
05:48:55 <Speuler> hmm
05:49:05 <Speuler> doesn't work ...
05:49:26 <Speuler> ...with gforth
05:54:35 <Speuler> ah
05:55:03 <Speuler> me stupid
05:55:11 <Speuler> variable top
05:55:17 <Speuler> : bar create , does> recurse ;
05:55:23 <Speuler> top bar x1
05:55:26 <Speuler> x1 y1
05:55:29 <Speuler> x1 y2
05:55:31 <Speuler> x1 y3
05:55:42 <Speuler> y1 z1
05:55:46 <Speuler> y1 z2
05:55:48 <Speuler> ...
05:56:24 <Speuler> : tree create , does> recurse ;
05:57:53 <Speuler> evil code for evil coders 
05:58:08 <Speuler> btw
05:58:47 <Speuler> my email adress =   devilsadvocate@forthfreak.de  :)
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06:07:02 <jacereda> hi
06:08:15 <Robert> Hello :)
06:08:22 <Robert> Speuler: Heh!
06:08:35 <Robert> Speuler: That's a...nice address.
06:09:05 <Speuler> the devilsadvokate part ?
06:09:27 <Robert> Both parts.
06:10:02 <Speuler> forthfreak.de is mine. i can email redirect any account you want from it
06:10:22 <Speuler> like doesmaster@forthfreak.de :)
06:12:53 <Robert> Cool :)
06:12:54 <Robert> Well...
06:13:01 <Robert> robert@forthfreak.de? :)
06:13:06 <Speuler> sure
06:13:10 <Speuler> where to ?
06:13:14 <Robert> Could you redirect that to robost@telia.com ?
06:13:21 <Speuler> ok
06:13:46 <Robert> Dankje :)
06:14:10 <Speuler> should be active now
06:14:32 <Robert> Nice
06:27:44 <jacereda> anyone using hforth?
06:30:48 <Speuler> harvard 8086 forth ?
06:32:10 <jacereda> nope, http://www.taygeta.com/hforth.html
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08:37:35 <Robert> I440r: Hey.
08:37:45 <Robert> I440r: I got does> to work :)
08:38:12 <Robert> I440r: Can you tell me if this definition of if/then should is correct?
08:38:50 <Robert> : if [ ' ?branch ] , 0 , ; immediate
08:39:03 <Robert> er
08:39:08 <Robert> : if [ ' ?branch ] , here 0 , ; immediate
08:39:14 <Robert> : then here swap ! ; immediate
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09:37:59 <Robert> Herkamire :)
09:44:30 <Herkamire> hey :)
09:44:43 <Herkamire> back from the dead... I mean asleep
09:45:06 <Herkamire> now I'm ready to start programming again
09:46:29 <Robert> Cool!
09:46:32 <Robert> Hmm.
09:46:35 <Robert> Would this work?
09:46:38 <Robert> 17:39 < Robert> : if [ ' ?branch ] , here 0 , ; immediate
09:46:38 <Robert> 17:40 < Robert> : then here swap ! ; immediate
09:49:18 <jacereda> Depends on your forth... don't you have COMPILE, ?
09:51:58 <jacereda> or POSTPONE ?
09:52:38 <jacereda>  : if postpone ?branch here 0 , ; immediate 
09:52:49 <Robert> Hm.
09:52:58 <Robert> No postpone. How would it be implemented?
09:53:46 <Robert> Will it compile the word following it when the word "if" is run?
09:54:00 <jacereda> yes
09:54:18 <onetom> sg like BL WORD FIND ... LIT, ; IMMEDIATE
09:54:30 <Robert> Wouldn't this work?   [ ' ?branch ] ,
09:54:48 <jacereda> depends on your forth
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09:55:05 <jacereda> some implementations define " : compile, , ; "
09:55:08 <onetom> Robert: , is not immediate
09:55:12 <I440r_> robert that : if [ ' ?branch ] , here 0 , ; is good 
09:55:31 <I440r_> it shoukld work but theres an identicall but better definition :)
09:55:36 <Robert> onetom: But it's run when "if" is.
09:55:37 <I440r_> : if compile ?branch >mark ;
09:55:51 <Robert> >mark?
09:55:57 <I440r_> : >mark here 0 , ;
09:56:04 <Robert> money >mark ;-)
09:56:05 <onetom> Robert: but the [ ... ] is not
09:56:06 <I440r_> it compiles a dummy forward ref to be backfilled
09:56:27 <I440r_> : then compile dothen >resolve ;
09:56:30 <I440r_> dothen is a noop
09:56:34 <Robert> Oh..
09:56:42 <I440r_> but it makes it possible to decompile :)
09:56:44 <I440r_> or easier
09:56:50 <I440r_> : then >resolve ; 
09:56:51 <Robert> onetom: I see what you mean...
09:56:56 <I440r_> : >resolve here swap ! ;
09:57:04 <onetom> : >
09:57:13 <I440r_> thers also <mark and <resolve
09:57:21 <I440r_> look in loops.f 
09:57:54 <I440r_> but your definition was good too :)
09:58:45 <Robert> Hmm..
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10:38:01 <Herkamire> welcome skylan
10:39:28 <skylan> Hail Herkamire
10:55:39 <Speuler> bye
10:55:46 <Speuler> need to downgrade my machine
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11:17:20 <jacereda> <yawn>
12:57:20 --- log: started forth/02.09.29
12:57:20 --- join: clog (nef@206.63.100.249) joined #forth
12:57:20 --- topic: 'All programmers are optimists | x86 Linux Forth coded in asm - http://isforth.clss.net | home of forth - http://www.ultratechnology.com/forth.htm'
12:57:20 --- topic: set by thin on [Sun Sep 15 08:00:43 2002]
12:57:20 --- names: list (clog dmiles TreyB Klaw air ianni Robert cyberlok Herkamire skylan @ChanServ jacereda)
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18:50:44 <Speuler> 'morning
18:54:10 <Herkamire> evening :)
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.09.29