00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.09.16
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05:36:26 <onetom> hi
05:36:36 <ASau> Hello!
05:37:23 <onetom> http://novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu:9000/
05:39:39 <ASau> Server not found. :(
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06:02:10 <onetom> eeh
06:02:20 <ASau> onetom: ?
06:02:34 <onetom> 160.114.27.131:9000
06:05:02 <ASau> Cannot access.
06:05:13 <onetom> how come?
06:05:25 <onetom> what does a trace route say?
06:06:16 <ASau> No 9000.
06:06:22 <ASau> 80 is OK
06:07:02 <ASau> novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu
06:07:27 <ASau> trace complete...
06:09:15 <ASau> Are you setting Apache?
06:10:34 <onetom> no
06:11:08 <onetom> it would b herkamire's gforth mini webserver example
06:12:26 <onetom> sorry, i dont know whats wrong w the hungarian net
06:12:36 <onetom> but i also experience srtange things
06:12:56 <ASau> htt://novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu/ shows poss. apache dflt page
06:13:07 <onetom> sure sure
06:13:13 <onetom> thats okay
06:13:20 <onetom> so u can reach it
06:13:24 <ASau> http://novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu:9000/ shows nothing
06:13:29 <onetom> k, let me test it
06:13:39 <onetom> what browser do u use?
06:13:46 <onetom> and what is the page source?
06:14:04 <onetom> is it empty too?
06:14:18 <onetom> could u try it from links?
06:18:36 <onetom> hm, great, it doesnt work 4 me either now
06:19:16 <ASau> lynx 2.8.2rel.1
06:20:00 <onetom> k, now it should work
06:20:15 <onetom> tho, it sends a connection reset by peer
06:20:34 <onetom> and i dont know why, but not considerind it, it works
06:20:41 <onetom> u can dl its source too
06:20:46 <onetom> brb
06:27:03 <onetom> well? does it wokr?
06:27:19 <ASau> Connection aborted
06:27:41 <onetom> yeah yeah it must be the synonym for conn resert by peer
06:27:53 <ASau> Unable to access
06:28:07 <onetom> r these IE msgs?
06:28:17 <ASau> No
06:28:19 <ASau> Lynx
06:28:27 <onetom> ah , sorry
06:28:35 <onetom> dont know then
06:28:44 <onetom> r u interested in the src?
06:28:52 <onetom> i can dcc it
06:35:14 <ASau> Hmm.
06:35:20 <ASau> I'd like to take a look.
06:41:06 <onetom> ?? why dont u accept the dcc
06:46:10 <ASau> Ah
06:46:17 <ASau> Changed.
06:46:31 <ASau> I've forgotten about this
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06:46:32 <sif> Type sif: <forth code here> (or /msg sif <forth code here> to play in private)
06:47:49 <onetom> ASau: im trying 2 send but nothing happens
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06:54:17 <ASau> onetom: Try one more.
07:02:16 <onetom> tryin
07:02:38 <onetom> but u can also gimme an email addr :)
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07:20:50 <ASau> Hmm.
07:21:10 <ASau> How can I read CHM compiled HTML files?
07:21:24 <ASau> Or convert them to HTML or smth more readable.
07:32:04 <Herkamire> ASau: I have a Python script. 
07:33:15 <Herkamire> it prints it on the screen with curses. I haven't tried it on CM's files.
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07:33:28 <Speuler> g'day
07:35:17 <ASau> Herk: No python. DOS or Win95 (at worst case) util, please.
07:35:37 <ASau> Good evening, Speuler!
07:38:31 <Robert> Good afternoon, forthers!
07:41:36 <ASau> Robert: Possibly, you know how to convert CHM files to more readable text format? :)
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07:43:48 <ASau> Good evening, XeF4!
07:44:02 <ASau> Maybe, you know how to convert CHM files to more readable text format? :)
07:44:27 <XeF4> actually I don't even know what generates CHMs
07:44:36 <ASau> I've found Brodie's SF Rus.ed. in CHM...
07:44:49 <ASau> I'd wanted to see if really.
07:45:47 <Herkamire> ASau: it's a pretty simple format if you want to write something
07:46:35 <ASau> I don't know what generates it, I just want fast&easy way to convert it.
07:47:00 <ASau> What a hell! Yet another text format!
07:47:32 <Herkamire> ASau: I thought his editor creates them
07:47:54 <Herkamire> ASau: you are talking about the blocks from is colorforth operating system right?
07:48:59 <ASau> No
07:49:25 <ASau> I'm talking about Compiled HTML aka .CHM format
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07:55:59 <Herkamire> oh. I've never heard of that. where can I read about it?
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07:56:17 <ASau> If I knew...
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08:07:41 <Herkamire> wait a minute... isn't CHM the format for Windoze help files?
08:09:10 <ASau> ???
08:09:24 <ASau> I don't know if it is.
08:09:32 <Herkamire> it's windoze help.
08:09:33 <ASau> But it may be.
08:10:02 <ASau> D'you know how to convert it to HTML, for example?
08:10:16 <Herkamire> "tech docs [...] into a .CHM file to be viewed with Microsoft's HTML Help system."
08:10:39 <Herkamire> It's Microsoft. good freaking luck
08:10:47 <Herkamire> run away screaming
08:13:07 <ASau> Hmm.
08:13:18 <ASau> Now I've got it reading.
08:13:44 <ASau> But I'd like to read it more appropriate way.
08:14:02 <ASau> I.e. without M$Win.
08:14:16 <ASau> I don't have them at home.
08:18:41 <thin> is there starting forth in english in .chm ?
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08:19:35 <ASau> thin: I don't know.
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08:21:38 <thin> i probably will scan in SF when i get my hands on it again
08:22:02 <thin> warez! :P
08:22:16 <thin> it's out of print
08:23:39 <ASau> (whisper:) Do you think SF is in print now in Russia?
08:24:02 <thin> nope..
08:24:08 <ASau> :p
08:24:09 <thin> you have .chm
08:24:17 <thin> that's warez right there isn't it ;)
08:25:52 <ASau> tsssss :)))
08:25:58 <thin> s/.chm/electronic format
08:26:37 <ASau> I've got right this book in carbon.
08:26:50 <ASau> But it is not here...
08:29:09 <ASau> I'd wanted to get an electronic one, to keep it handy.
08:29:38 <ASau> (whisper:) Do you need SF.CHM?
08:30:09 <thin> its in russian?
08:32:21 <ASau> Of course, in Russian.
08:32:56 <ASau> Moskwa, "Finansy i statistika", 1990.
08:33:09 <ASau> O!
08:33:16 <ASau> MOCKBA!
08:33:30 <ASau> Right as cyrillic.
08:47:42 <ASau> About forthos again.
08:48:04 <ASau> I need a forth shell.
08:48:26 <ASau> I'm not satisfied with standard DOSes one.
08:48:46 <ASau> So, I've decided to design my own.
08:49:12 <ASau> Primary requirements.
08:49:44 <ASau> 1) loading external executing files
08:49:56 <ASau> 2) piping;
08:50:09 <ASau> 3) simple scripting.
08:50:53 <XeF4> 1) pygmy 2) pygmy 3) pygmy
08:50:53 <ASau> Also:
08:51:21 <ASau> Can I use pygmy src for my own purposes?
08:51:25 <ASau> Also:
08:51:34 <ASau> 1) simple syntax;
08:51:36 <XeF4> AS: afaik, if you don't commercially redistribute it
08:51:38 <ASau> 2) size;
08:52:02 <ASau> I've not seen src for Pygmy.
08:52:43 <ASau> Am I able to migrate to Linux/other OS in future with pygmy?
08:52:44 <XeF4> it's included with the pygmy zip
08:53:07 <XeF4> probably not easily
08:53:43 <ASau> I see no sources.
08:53:50 <ASau> VER ?
08:54:18 <XeF4> http://www.eskimo.com/~pygmy/ 1.5
08:54:46 <ASau> No sources for 1.5
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08:56:47 <XeF4> have you looked in the zip? they are there in pygmy.scr
08:58:25 <ASau> No src for kernel.
08:58:34 <ASau> No _asm_ src for kernel.
08:58:47 <XeF4> the asm sources are in pygmy.scr
09:00:19 <XeF4> CODE SWAP ( n1 n2 - n2 n1 )
09:00:20 <XeF4>   AX POP, BX PUSH, AX BX MOV, NXT,  END-CODE
09:00:20 <XeF4> CODE OVER ( n1 n2 - n1 n2 n1)  AX POP,  AX PUSH,  BX PUSH,
09:00:20 <XeF4>  AX BX MOV,  NXT,  END-CODE
09:00:20 <XeF4> CODE DUP ( n - n n)  BX PUSH, NXT, END-CODE
09:00:22 <ASau> Can I rebuild pygmy.com without pre-existing one?
09:00:29 <ASau> I mean this case.
09:00:39 <XeF4> what do you call THAT? no, you must use pygmy's assembler
09:00:56 <ASau> _That_ I call sources.
09:01:26 <ASau> If I can rebuild w/o pre-existing target file.
09:03:03 <ASau> Asm is preferred.
09:03:16 <XeF4> you can't even do that with most assemblers
09:03:39 <XeF4> since most of them are written in C and the C compiler is written in C, so you can't rebuild the whole system without an existing C compiler
09:04:14 <XeF4> the comments in block 0 tell all (start pygmy and type 0 EDIT)
09:04:22 <ASau> fasm.sf.net
09:05:04 <ASau> I've read it.
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09:06:04 <XeF4> what is fasm written in?
09:07:23 <ASau> in asm
09:11:02 <ASau> Well.
09:11:20 <ASau> If anyone designed syntax for such shell?
09:17:22 <XeF4> so you need a fasm bin to rebuild fasm.  quite the same.
09:26:02 <ASau> No.
09:26:03 <onetom> egg & hen problem :)
09:26:09 <ASau> I need an asm.
09:26:31 <ASau> No matter.
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09:26:46 <ASau> I want clear syntax
09:30:05 <XeF4> normal forth syntax is unclear?
09:31:32 <onetom> ASau: no, u want the usual/casual/standard/wellknown/general/common syntax
09:31:48 <onetom> what is not worse or better than pygmys 1..
09:42:11 * ASau will possibly continue tomorrow.
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12:13:03 <thin> hi klaw`
12:13:35 <Klaw`> hi
12:14:09 <thin> you are chuck moore? ;)
12:14:09 <Herkamire> Klaw`: for fun I make a webserver in gforth. check it out: http://herkamire.homeip.net:9000/
12:14:14 <Klaw`> no
12:14:32 <thin> herkamire: i'm not connecting..
12:14:35 <thin> i'm using i.e 5
12:14:43 <thin> shouldn't make a diff tho
12:15:05 <Klaw`> i started to make a server..
12:15:06 <thin> so..
12:15:11 <thin> chuck moore, tell us what's new
12:15:12 <Klaw`> tcpserver + load is way too slow
12:15:37 <onetom> Klaw`: slower than what?
12:15:54 <thin> it's time for me to look at colorforth source and extract the machineforth vm out of it ...
12:16:08 <thin> onetom: have you looked at colorforth asm source?
12:16:16 <thin> is it true there's a machineforth implementation in it?
12:16:18 <Klaw`> slower than acceptable
12:16:24 <Klaw`> lot slower than apache
12:16:30 <onetom> yeah, the htmlized version some month ago
12:17:04 <onetom> Klaw`: ah, load means loading gforth?
12:17:53 <onetom> thin: i dont understand the question. is there a machine 4th simulator written in c4th?
12:18:48 <Herkamire> Klaw`: do benchmarks before you bitch about speed. a local request takes 0.02 secconds by my calculations.
12:19:16 <Herkamire> hmm, that's not a great test though. hold on
12:20:49 <Herkamire> 0.034 secconds to fetch it with wget -q. (that includes launching wget.)
12:21:17 <thin> i heard that chuck moore wrote a machineforth implementation, and then wrote colorforth on top of that
12:21:31 <Klaw`> Herkamire: I did benchmarks
12:21:35 <thin> that essentially color.com includes machineforth + colorforth
12:22:01 <Klaw`> wget is not a benchmark
12:22:07 <Klaw`> but thanks for your enthusiasm
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12:22:43 <Herkamire> Klaw`: cool. you're right too :) apache takes 0.024 for the same request (and it's generating a directory listing to boot)
12:24:40 <Herkamire> I'd have to blame that on gforth though
12:27:02 <thin> herkamire: i'm still not connecting to your webpage :(
12:28:22 <Klaw`> Herkamire: run ab for benchmarking
12:28:56 <Klaw`> i think a forth httpd server needs to manage it's own sockets
12:29:03 <Klaw`> if you want any decent result
12:29:08 <Herkamire> thin: I've been having trouble with dns this morning. try: http://68.14.9.39:9000/
12:30:02 <Herkamire> Klaw`: I'm seeing my server be 10 ms slower than apache. and that starting gforth takes 17ms... if I had a forth that only took 7ms or less, than it'd be at least as fast as apache
12:30:25 <thin> use isforth
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12:31:10 <Herkamire> thin: I would if I had an x86 box
12:32:57 <Herkamire> Klaw`: how do I find out about ab?
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12:37:31 <Klaw`> ab comes with apache
12:37:37 <Klaw`> isforth didnn't compile for me on freebsd
12:37:44 <Klaw`> i didn't fuck with it much though
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12:53:10 <Robert> Hello :-)
12:54:57 <Herkamire> oh man, my benchmarks are crummy.
12:55:16 <Herkamire> I must be doing something wrong with the http protocol. some programs don't like my gforth server.
12:56:35 <Robert> Icelandic is a funny language.
13:02:33 <Klaw`> Herkamire: you have HTTP/1.0 200 OK ?
13:02:41 <Klaw`> and are you using \r\n to terminate lines
13:04:50 <Kitanin> Herk: That's a nice theory, but nothing you do will ever make _all_ programs like your http server.  :-)
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13:09:12 <Klaw`> brutality
13:09:30 <Klaw`> comp.lang.forth
13:20:53 <Herkamire> Klaw`: I'm got that status and crlf. unless I have crlf backwards. it should be 13 then 10 right?
13:26:35 <Klaw`> yeah, i think thats it
13:26:38 <Klaw`> you have your Content-length?
13:26:58 <Klaw`> Content-length and status should be all you need, though i'm sure some prefer to have a content-type should
13:27:02 <Klaw`> content-type too
13:32:05 <Herkamire> I have status (HTTP/1.0 200 OK) Content-Type: text/html and Content-Length: 234
13:40:32 <Klaw`> and where is it failing
13:44:30 <Herkamire> Klaw`: I don't know. some programs say "connection reset by peer"
13:44:39 <Herkamire> lynx just sits there saying it's connecting
13:44:50 <Herkamire> wget and mozilla work fine
13:45:55 <Herkamire> I just checked the output and it is sending crlf (that was hard... wget and telnet translate crlf to lf.) I had to make a crappy script with tcpclient.
13:46:25 <Herkamire> the content length is correct
13:51:46 <Klaw`> add a few \n's to the end
13:51:53 <Klaw`> lynx may be thinking it's waiting for more data
13:52:00 <Klaw`> the other thing is that there is Connection: close
13:52:13 <Klaw`> Does PFE have sockets?
14:02:08 <Herkamire> "Connection: close" makes wget fail too... grrr
14:02:21 <Herkamire> does the order of the headers matter at all (besides the status needing to be first)
14:02:31 <Klaw`> no
14:02:38 <Klaw`> just telnet into a working site and smack yourself on the forhead
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14:09:40 <Herkamire> I've been looking for something to smack myself in the forehead over, but I don't see anything yet
14:11:15 <Fractal> Herkamire : Hook up that gforth webserver, would ya?
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14:22:58 <Herkamire> Fractal: It's hooked. It doesn't work in some browsers. I can't figure out why. http://herkamire.homeip.net:9000/
14:23:30 <Herkamire> dillo, mozilla and wget like it.
14:24:03 <Herkamire> ahh :) yay dillo. dillo complains that there is no content-encoding header
14:26:11 <Speuler> Herkamire: dog says :
14:26:12 <Speuler> HTTP/1.0 200 OK
14:26:14 <Speuler> Content-Type: text/html
14:26:14 <Speuler> Content-Length: 372 
14:26:36 <Herkamire> Speuler: that's correct right?
14:28:34 <Fractal> Try not using the linefeed
14:28:37 <Fractal> Just the CR
14:30:17 <Fractal> Or do HTTP/1.1
14:30:22 <Fractal> Instead of 1.0
14:30:42 <Speuler> dog | wc gives 438 , minus first five lines header 66, gives 372. good
14:32:03 <Speuler> body is a single long line
14:32:49 <Fractal> Herkamire : You've still got the ^M in.
14:33:14 <Fractal> The Take out the 0x10
14:33:23 <Herkamire> Fractal: ok there ya go
14:33:24 <Speuler> only after the header lines. not at eof
14:33:45 <Speuler> ahem... 4 lines header
14:34:16 <Herkamire> Speuler: huh? should I have \r between headers, and \r\n\r\n at end of headers?
14:34:40 <Fractal> Herkamire : No, you took out the wrong one.
14:35:02 <Herkamire> Fractal: hehe :) ok, here's the other
14:35:23 <Speuler> lf rather then crlf would do nicely here
14:35:28 <Fractal> :)
14:36:02 <Fractal> Herkamire : You are of course close()ing the socket after, right?
14:36:07 <Herkamire> Fractal: there is no 0x10 (sixteen) so I took out the ten
14:36:14 <Herkamire> Fractal: yes
14:36:34 <Herkamire> so, should I put lf between headers, and crlf at the end of the headers?
14:37:56 <Fractal> Hm... Doesn't really seem to make a difference.
14:38:17 <Fractal> My webserver, hcsw.org, just uses cr. No lf. Apache uses crlf
14:38:35 <Speuler> Herkamire: another page i just dogged looked same as yours
14:39:14 <Herkamire> maybe I need to flush the output before I quit?
14:39:15 <Fractal> lynx says Rertrying as HTTP0 request for some fucked up reason.
14:39:21 <Speuler> ^M^J on all except the last
14:39:38 <Fractal> When you close(), the data is automatically flushed, so...
14:40:43 <Speuler> Herkamire: google does the same: ^M between first lines, but not on the multi-line body, just ^J there
14:41:47 <Fractal> I don't think it really matters.
14:42:21 <Speuler> wget worked here too
14:42:34 <Fractal> Yeah, wget works now.
14:42:52 <Fractal> Not sure why lynx doesn't...
14:49:15 <Herkamire> grrrrr I did wget -s http://www.google.com/ and told tcpserver to serve that (tcpserver 0 9999 cat index.html) and I get the same results. wget does translate crlf to lf in the file though.
14:50:28 <Klaw> use socat
14:50:41 <Klaw> it'll translate your cr to crlf and back and forth and to and fro
14:56:08 <Herkamire> grrrr... and I already disliked http
15:01:38 <Fractal> That's the price you pay for using tcpserver. :(
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15:46:14 <Fractal> ›/2
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17:07:45 <edrx> I just found the text of the Forth83 standard online, at <http://forth.sourceforge.net/standard/fst83/>... anyone knows if the Forth79 standard has an online version too?
17:08:35 <edrx> I used a Forth79 system a lot in the late 80s and early 90s...
17:08:36 <onetom> edrx: ive never met an f79 stnd
17:08:59 <onetom> only the 83 and that awful ans
17:09:19 <edrx> onetom: what does that mean? you believe it was never a written standard, or just that you've never seen it online?
17:09:40 <edrx> the ans standard is really dreadful
17:10:20 <edrx> if I had a lot of time in my hands I would try to port Laxen & Perry's F83 to *nix...
17:11:06 <edrx> onetom: hey, you're from Hungary?
17:11:24 <onetom> yes
17:11:36 <onetom> im from hungary
17:11:43 <edrx> do you know many people that use Forth there?
17:11:48 <onetom> and never seen f79 stnd online
17:11:54 <onetom> not much
17:12:21 <onetom> but i know about a pile of ppl who hate me when i talk about 4th ;)
17:12:55 <onetom> edrx: TILE follows the F83 std
17:13:33 <edrx> I'm from Brazil, btw... I know about 5 or 6 people around that learned Forth and even tried to convert other people... and each one of them learned it independently...
17:14:35 <edrx> onetom: what is TILE? sounds familiar... I used PFE and pforth... but they weren't very fantastic...
17:15:31 <onetom> TILE stands 4 Threaded Interpretive Language Environment
17:15:54 <onetom> its an F83 4th implementation in C, so portable amongst unicies
17:16:29 <onetom> http://hermantom.homeip.net/~tom/forth/tile-forth-2.1.tar.gz
17:16:48 <onetom> its my home box, what is not accessible all the time
17:17:15 <edrx> I found a link to the tgz at http://forth.sourceforge.net/system/
17:17:22 <edrx> are you the author?
17:17:27 <onetom> nooooh :)
17:17:41 <onetom> whis i would
17:18:11 <edrx> how familiar you are with it?
17:18:32 <onetom> well, a lil bit regarding the internals
17:18:43 <onetom> and not much regarding usage :)
17:19:07 <onetom> but dont b afraid 2 ask me questions
17:19:13 <onetom> about it
17:19:51 <onetom> it has a lot of examples, useful libs and reasonable amount of mans about lib words
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17:20:19 <onetom> and the vm&dict design is not too complicated
17:20:34 <onetom> hello, Speuler 
17:21:24 <edrx> sounds very good... I've had an awful time trying to understand the bytecodes and dictionary structure for GForth...
17:21:26 <edrx> hi Speuler
17:22:19 <edrx> then I had an idea to try to make people describe these structures using, say, nasm syntax... but I never wrote that down clearly enough
17:22:57 <onetom> edrx: yeah, ive also started w gforth, but its terribly overcomplicated
17:24:11 <edrx> the worst part was when I started to feel that everyone else considered it so simple and so well-documented that no one could explain it to me
17:28:41 <onetom> :))) yeah, ive also passed through that phase
17:29:15 <onetom> i even managed 2 add 2 primitives 2 it! ( pc@ & pc!)
17:29:36 <onetom> but it took me days 2 explore it how can i do it
17:29:52 <onetom> i havent even ever programmed in linux b4
17:30:10 <onetom> and that doesnt help :)
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20:04:40 <sif> Type sif: <forth code here> (or /msg sif <forth code here> to play in private)
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21:06:28 <CrowKiller> I translated all my primitive stuff into source
21:06:39 <CrowKiller> i factorised and factorised and factorised between calsses and at home
21:07:11 <CrowKiller> quite extensively ;p and i have now a 111 bytes
21:07:13 <CrowKiller> compiler
21:07:28 <CrowKiller> programmable from source
21:07:40 <CrowKiller> with functions up to 16 machine code bytes
21:07:55 <CrowKiller> i have 6 functions
21:07:59 <CrowKiller> here its late
21:08:05 <CrowKiller> i just want to tell people about it
21:08:09 <CrowKiller> its really powerful
21:08:13 <CrowKiller> 6 types of token
21:08:51 <CrowKiller> 1st type: Relative Word Call Compiling: 1 byte token
21:09:48 <CrowKiller> hmmm
21:09:52 <CrowKiller> ill cut and paste my source
21:09:56 <CrowKiller> its really not long
21:10:00 <CrowKiller> ;====================
21:10:01 <CrowKiller> ;Basic Register Usage
21:10:01 <CrowKiller> ;====================
21:10:01 <CrowKiller> ;=>> Compile time 
21:10:01 <CrowKiller> ;
21:10:01 <CrowKiller> ;*String instructions (lodsb, etc) are used within this code.
21:10:03 <CrowKiller> ;ESI is the Input String register
21:10:05 <CrowKiller> ;EDI is the Output String register
21:10:07 <CrowKiller> ;    NB. 2 previous pointers influenced by the Direction Flag (DF)
21:10:09 <CrowKiller> ;EAX is the working register
21:10:11 <CrowKiller> ;EBX is the trash register
21:10:13 <CrowKiller> ;ECX is the count register (trash)
21:10:15 <CrowKiller> ;EDX is the "A" register (trash)
21:10:17 <CrowKiller> ;EBP is the top of the Compile Time dictionary
21:10:19 <CrowKiller> ;ESP is the top of the Return stack
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21:10:34 <CrowKiller> doh
21:10:49 <CrowKiller> anyway ill show it on a tinyweb website ill host tommorow
21:10:56 <CrowKiller> semi-interactive wiki ;p
21:11:22 <CrowKiller> see ya everyone! my compiler is almost finished!!! its a truly portable idea that can do wonders!!
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21:25:53 <onetom> has any1 understood it?
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22:35:17 <Fractal> I never understand what he says. :)
22:56:04 --- nick: Fractal -> [FRC]DukeSucks
22:57:54 --- nick: [FRC]DukeSucks -> lament
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23:11:14 <onetom> Fractal: :)))
23:11:20 <Fractal> Yo.
23:11:22 <Fractal> Sup?
23:11:39 <onetom> coz he speaks russian ;)
23:11:53 <Fractal> :)
23:12:04 <onetom> ftp://linux01.gwdg.de/pub/cLIeNUX/descriptive
23:12:11 <onetom> thats up :)
23:12:22 <onetom> beside that xpaint rlz
23:12:50 <onetom> im thinking on the possibility of rewriting xpaint
23:13:05 <onetom> so it could b scripted too
23:13:48 <onetom> it has most of the powerful img manipulation features
23:14:00 <onetom> but its undo system is a lil bit poor
23:14:23 <onetom> and it doesnt have selection mask saving capability
23:14:51 <onetom> but adding it to the graphical user interface would just make it
23:15:06 <Fractal> Interesting.
23:15:45 <Fractal> What am I looking at at that URL?
23:15:55 <onetom> more complex, so its a better idea 2 make these things accesible via a 4th interface
23:16:27 <onetom> its a mini linux distro what contains gforth by default
23:16:38 <Fractal> Interesting.
23:16:50 <Fractal> I was actually thinking of doing that with my own forth.
23:16:57 <onetom> encouraging it as a shell or a general programming tool
23:17:04 <Fractal> I could make it fit on a single floppy, though.
23:17:06 <onetom> that? what?
23:17:24 <Fractal> Making a small linux distro.
23:17:28 <onetom> aha
23:17:45 <onetom> im thinking about using bsd instead
23:18:00 <onetom> its more scaleable & its design is cleaner
23:18:20 <Fractal> Perhaps. It's quite difficult to build small kernels with BSD, though.
23:18:30 <Fractal> Also, linux works better on low memory systems.
23:18:34 <onetom> and there is also already a pico bsd what is a thinned version of the orig
23:18:49 <onetom> really?
23:18:53 <Fractal> Yeah, it's a forked version of OpenBSD if I remember correctly.
23:19:14 <onetom> have u played w bsd yet?
23:19:23 <Fractal> Of course.
23:19:28 <Fractal> I normally use BSD.
23:19:35 <onetom> oh,okay :)
23:19:39 <Fractal> My laptop, which I'm using now is NetBSD.
23:19:52 <onetom> ive just installed them under vmware
23:20:06 <Fractal> Oh, interesting.
23:20:10 <Fractal> Which BSD?
23:20:10 <onetom> but they all were uncomfortable after linux and its bash
23:20:16 <onetom> all bsds
23:20:21 <Fractal> onetom : You can use bash on BSD.
23:20:21 <onetom> net, open, free
23:20:25 <Fractal> Nice.
23:20:27 <onetom> sure, i know
23:21:09 <Fractal> The first things I install on any machine (BSD/linux/sun/whatever) is bash, GNU ls, and lynx.
23:21:20 <onetom> but i didnt do anything serious w them yet, coz
23:21:30 <onetom> they r pretty different from linux
23:21:47 <Fractal> They're not all that different.
23:22:07 <Fractal> They're actually remarkably similar when compared with other (commercial) unixes.
23:22:14 <onetom> i had 2 learn & play w them a lot 2 b able 2 achieve the same results as under linux
23:22:30 <Fractal> Oh yeah, for sure.
23:22:37 <onetom> sure, they r not different from eachother, but from linux!
23:22:52 <Fractal> No, I mean linux and BSD are pretty similar.
23:23:18 <onetom> eg,  i definetly need music & video playback on my desktop computer
23:23:28 <Fractal> Both are monolithic kernels with module support, /proc/ filesystems, solid VM and VFS systems.
23:23:46 <onetom> yeah, but the drivers names r different
23:23:54 <onetom> the packagin system is different
23:23:54 <Fractal> Oh, well boohoo. :)
23:24:12 <Fractal> Yeah, well packaging system on linux aren't even standard.
23:24:27 <Fractal> RPM/deb/gentoo/etc.
23:24:48 <onetom> its not standard but the version of debian is pretty convenient
23:24:52 <onetom> and easy 2 learn
23:25:07 <Fractal> Agreed. The debian package system is good.
23:25:20 <Fractal> Have you tried the BSD ports tree?
23:25:28 <onetom> bsd's make world & ports r more cleaner and efficient
23:25:30 <Fractal> cd /usr/ports/www/lynx ; make install
23:25:38 <onetom> but its more difficult 2 learn
23:25:53 <Fractal> Yeah, slightly.
23:26:24 <onetom> i plan 2 learn & im sure, im able 2 learn
23:26:40 <onetom> but time is not enough 4 everything :)
23:26:48 <Fractal> Ya.
23:27:13 <onetom> could u help me installing a system some time?
23:27:21 <Fractal> Sure. What OS?
23:27:41 <onetom> it would b faster than reading all the docs
23:27:53 <Fractal> I've done more unix installs than I care to remember.
23:28:02 <onetom> i need only guide lines & the differencies from debian
23:28:17 <onetom> which 1 do u use/recommend?
23:28:30 <Fractal> Well, I like OpenBSD.
23:28:37 <Fractal> It's got a nice, tight install.
23:28:51 <Fractal> And it's closer to linux than NetBSD.
23:28:57 <onetom> got? what do u mean by that?
23:29:09 <Fractal> It has a nice, small install.
23:29:14 <onetom> when i tried it last year
23:29:33 <onetom> i didnt have any serious install system
23:29:37 <Fractal> Also, the /etc/rc* startup scripts are a lot simpler than NetBSD and linux.
23:29:46 <onetom> is it what u call nice?
23:30:01 <Fractal> Yes, once you get it set up the way you want it.
23:30:23 <onetom> and what about freebsd? or u r too macish 4 knowin anythin about it?
23:30:41 <Fractal> You won't have any network card support problems with it, but sound and graphics may be touchy.
23:30:48 <Fractal> FreeBSD? I haven't really worked with it a lot.
23:31:13 <Fractal> It's okay. From what I can tell, they're trying to be another linux.
23:31:37 <Fractal> It feels a lot like linux, but it's a big, big system.
23:32:04 <onetom> c
23:33:07 <Fractal> Yeah, NetBSD is nice, because you can get it on really small computers.
23:33:20 <Fractal> With little RAM, mostly.
23:33:34 <onetom> that sounds good
23:33:38 <Fractal> 8 megs is okay for NetBSD: not enough at all for Open.
23:33:47 <Fractal> And it's horrible for linux. :)
23:33:49 <onetom> and its the most portable 1 of the bsd family
23:33:59 <Fractal> Yeah, there's another benefit.
23:34:33 <onetom> we should start building a 4th os from netbsd then, aint we?
23:34:43 <Fractal> You think so? Sounds good.
23:34:51 <onetom> just because of its proven network support
23:35:11 <Fractal> The smallest shipped NetBSD kernel is about 600K.
23:35:33 <Fractal> onetom : Honestly, I'd say linux would be better. It's easier for most people to compile a linux kernel for themselves.
23:35:34 <onetom> hmm, it will do
23:36:01 <onetom> why is it so hard 2 compile a netbsd kernel?
23:36:18 <Fractal> It's not really, but you need to have an installed netBSD system.
23:36:30 <Fractal> Which is not nearly as common as linux.
23:36:59 <onetom> hm hm ...
23:37:02 <Fractal> But if you like, we can do a NetBSD one.
23:37:17 <Fractal> Or, better yet, we could do one that supports both.
23:37:35 <onetom> and how deep do u know the netbsd kernel?
23:37:35 <Fractal> Except you'd need 2 compiles of the system libraries...
23:38:02 <Fractal> Hmmm.. Not nearly as well as the linux kernel, but I'm comfortable compiling it.
23:38:52 <onetom> is it possible 2 setup a flat memory region for 1 forth process?
23:39:37 <Fractal> onetom : Well, you could just use the init (PID=1) process, and allocate a big chunk of memory.
23:39:45 <onetom> i would chop most of the kernel except the tcpip stuff
23:39:46 <Fractal> That would work on any of the unixes.
23:40:05 <Fractal> onetom : Agreed. I'd want a few different filesystems too though.
23:40:13 <Fractal> msdos/ext2/ffs/hfs
23:40:30 <onetom> sure, but how can i map the video memory into that allocated chunk for example?
23:41:10 <Fractal> Hm. That's a good question. The linux kernel has framebuffer support.
23:41:37 <onetom> the more stuff u have in the kernel the more things u have 2 link 2 the forth running on the top of it
23:41:38 <Fractal> SVGAlib lets you write directly to the memory on a PC.
23:42:10 <onetom> but how does it work?
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23:42:26 <Fractal> I'm not sure.
23:42:32 <Fractal> You'd have to look into it.
23:42:45 <Fractal> Dunno why you'd want a GUI.
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23:43:42 <onetom> id like 2 play w graphics
23:43:47 <onetom> true color graphics
23:43:57 <onetom> (img processing)
23:44:03 <Fractal> Yeah, that's a good question. I assume there's some sort of kernel mechanism that allocates you the video memory.
23:44:07 <Fractal> Fair enough.
23:44:39 <onetom> :( this x86 arch is terrible 4 4th
23:44:57 <Fractal> True. One good thing is that there's no alignment needed on x86.
23:45:06 <Fractal> But m68k is much better than forth.
23:45:08 <onetom> k, thx 4 the conversation
23:45:15 <Fractal> Better FOR forth, I mean.
23:45:22 <Fractal> No problem. Catch you later.
23:45:33 <onetom> now i gotta go & sleep some mins
23:45:42 <onetom> i didnt sleep last nite
23:45:49 <Fractal> Heh. G'night man.
23:46:28 <onetom> its 8:48am here, anyway :)
23:46:56 <onetom> read DFSH cLIeNUX ! thats funny
23:47:02 <Fractal> OK
23:47:06 <onetom> read DFSH @ cLIeNUX ! thats funny
23:47:14 <Fractal> Heh. It's 12:45 here.
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.09.16