00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.09.14 00:07:33 --- part: aleph0 left #forth 01:16:34 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 02:56:39 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 03:47:41 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 04:55:41 --- join: ASau (ASau@158.250.48.197) joined #forth 04:55:52 Good afternoon! 05:06:50 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:10:58 Hey! 05:11:08 Is anyone on-line? 05:16:51 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 05:24:46 Da :) 05:24:49 Hello there. 05:33:46 Hello, Robert! 05:34:09 I'm designing asm for my Forth. 05:34:28 By today syntax is in alpha stage. 05:34:45 I'm on x86. 05:34:58 Syntax is like this: 05:35:05 AX PUSH 05:35:10 BX AX MOV 05:35:14 13 # AX MOV 05:35:20 13 )# AX MOV 05:35:28 13 BX)+ AX MOV 05:35:41 or: 13 BX )+ AX MOV 05:35:49 BX) AX MOV 05:35:55 21 INT 05:35:58 etc. 05:36:35 How do you think, if this is good enough? 05:40:07 13 BX )+ AX MOV 05:40:15 What's that? 05:40:33 mov ax,[bx+13] ? 05:40:35 mov ax, 13[bx] 05:40:42 yes 05:40:42 OK. 05:40:58 It's ugly, but with some commenting...sure. 05:41:09 Hmm. 05:41:25 I looked at Horsts' 05:41:31 that is like 05:41:56 MOV, W| R| AX, 13 (BX|, 05:42:11 Even worse. 05:42:24 After smth like that I think it's pretty enough 05:43:02 I don't know how to show different addressing modes. 05:43:46 IIRC in PDP-11 asm 05:44:00 they're that kind: 05:44:13 mov %1,(%2)+ 05:44:17 mov %1,-(%2) 05:44:21 mov %1,@(%2) 05:44:41 mov %1,#LABEL 05:44:46 mov %1,(LABEL) 05:47:02 PDP-11 got pre-decrement and post-increment addressing? 05:47:12 yes 05:47:49 I may mistake: 05:47:56 mov (%2)+,%1 05:48:13 that order 06:39:12 --- join: sif (~sifforth@ip68-9-58-200.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 06:39:12 Type sif: (or /msg sif to play in private) 07:45:37 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc4-login32.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 07:45:47 Hi tcn. 07:46:04 hey 08:10:43 --- join: thin (~thin@h24-64-175-61.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 08:10:45 tcn 08:10:55 are you aware that xircon can connect to multiple servers? 08:10:59 use the /newserver command 08:11:12 ./newserver irc.dal.net 08:11:49 --- quit: tcn (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:11:52 lol 08:12:05 good morning all 08:12:09 sup robert :) 08:13:00 Good evening, all! 08:13:19 thin: Time to open #forthos 08:14:01 why? :) 08:14:16 I'm writing :) 08:15:08 i'm working towards forthos.. i've studied "the humane interface" by jef raskin, it is a new and better interface paradigm based on knowledge of human cognitive abilities 08:15:28 by the way 08:15:55 my forthos will run on top of MachineForth.. 08:16:16 i will probably implement a machineforth implementation in dos 08:16:41 Come together right now? 08:16:44 and then the rest of the os/system will be coded on top of machineforth 08:17:15 Have you links for machineForth studying? 08:17:27 the reason why the system is to be coded in machineforth lang, is because we want it to be able to run on top of forthchips like F21, etc 08:19:02 I'm going to write a shell for DOS on top of Forth now. 08:19:23 And I'm designing asm for x86. 08:20:14 I'll try to recompile myself (practice in target compiling). 08:20:27 asau: i440r is designing an assembler also 08:20:31 his looks like: 08:20:34 mov ax, bx 08:20:41 mov ax, 31 08:20:46 etc.. 08:20:49 My looks like: 08:20:53 bx ax mov 08:20:58 he doesn't use any parsing 08:20:58 31 # ax mov 08:21:05 31 ) ax mov 08:21:09 etc. 08:21:11 he uses a trick to make it look like regular asm syntax 08:21:15 his looks better :P 08:21:24 My is simpler 08:21:26 :p 08:22:00 well he wants similar syntax so that it's easier for him to convert all his isforth nasm source into isforth asm source 08:22:23 I see no problem 08:22:26 Hey thin. 08:22:28 besides, it's easier to read if it is similar to the common syntax 08:22:49 My common syntax is Forth-like :))) 08:22:51 asau: i don't think it's much more complex. he does the trick with a few words 08:22:52 thin: Uhmm... colorforth.com/X18.html is gone.. where can I get a machineforth listing? 08:23:10 thin: I'm thinking about implementing something machineforth-like in AVR asm. 08:23:39 robert: www.ultratechnology.com/f21cpu.html 08:23:41 i guess.. 08:23:47 search around ultratechnology.. 08:24:03 there's also a mup21 faq, i gave you that url awhile back 08:24:21 asau: no such thing as a "forth-like" asm 08:24:30 forth is NOT RPN :D 08:24:30 Robert: I've got a copy. 08:24:38 Robert: I've got a copy of X18.htm 08:24:44 http://www.ultratechnology.com/chips.htm 08:24:50 ASau: Oh, nice. Would you mind sending it to me? 08:24:54 robert: www.archive.org 08:25:07 go there, and you can see previous versions of other people's sites 08:25:08 Robert: sending... 08:25:11 like colorforth.com's site 08:25:27 thin: I see.. well, ASau is my archive ;) 08:26:36 http://web.archive.org/web/20011021210329/www.colorforth.com/X18.html 08:26:46 Thanks, ASau. 08:26:54 x18.html sucks 08:26:58 it's not that informative 08:27:04 ultratechnology has more info 08:27:08 and that mup21 faq ! 08:27:18 OK... I'll check that, too. 08:27:28 search thru http://www.ultratechnology.com/chips.htm 08:27:34 that's where all the material is 08:28:07 Well... hrm... most things link to colorforth.com :P 08:28:11 Without giving a specific page 08:28:49 robert: there's some implementation papers 08:28:58 how to implement stack processors and crap 08:29:42 there is a bunch of " in FPGA" 08:29:55 you have ARV or something? sort of FPGA isn't it? 08:32:33 No. 08:32:44 I checked those fpga docs, but it's nothing for me. 08:51:27 thin: Can you explain what you mean under machineForth? 08:52:15 ? 08:52:32 you mean "ON machineforth" 08:52:38 not "under machineforth" don't you ?? 08:52:49 I want to get links with definition of machineForth 08:52:54 machineforth has 27 primitives/instructions 08:52:57 Or definition 08:53:03 List? 08:53:07 thin: How are literals stored? 08:53:26 machineforth is the assembly language of chuck moore's forth chips 08:53:41 asau: www.ultratechnology.com/f21cpu.html has a list of the instructions 08:53:44 robert: on the stack 08:53:45 thin: How are literals stored? 08:53:47 Heh. 08:53:51 >:D 08:53:58 I mean, if you have a program in ROM, that wants to push a literal... 08:53:59 robert: i'm confused by your confusion! 08:54:04 hmmm 08:54:04 Say 0x1234, how is that done? 08:54:32 there's a literal instruction.. 08:54:55 or not 08:54:57 lemme check 08:55:29 0A 0x1234 08:56:03 0A # fetch 20-bit in-line literal LIT 08:56:17 0A is the hex of the literal instruction.. 08:56:24 # is the name 08:56:55 robert: www.ultratechnology.com/f21cpu.html 08:57:03 am i helping at all ?? 08:57:34 http://d-1-200.dhcp-149-159.indiana.edu/misc/p21faq.html 08:57:37 that faq has more info 08:57:41 of how literals are done i bet 08:57:52 or just ask galexand or other people 08:58:06 food run 09:06:39 thin: ultratechnology.com/mup21.html ? 09:18:52 asau: what about it? 09:19:33 --- join: aleph0 (aleph0@lim-gw-01-213245029021.chello.fr) joined #forth 09:20:32 hi aleph0 09:20:40 hi thin 09:21:19 i unfortunately do not know of any forths that have objects on the stack except for the forth-like languages like Postscript or MUF (muf is the online programming language of the tinymuck mud) 09:22:01 but i would think there would be at least one such implementation out there that does objects on the stack.. 09:22:21 thanks 09:22:48 I would like to write an implementation in Java 09:23:20 are you a forth coder or are you new to forth? 09:23:37 (lots of people new to forth tend to code up a forth in C or whatever language they like) 09:23:55 or something else? 09:24:06 I've studied a little the Forth language several years ago 09:26:23 well, what a want to do is not Forth strictly speaking. It would be something like Forth and closer to Postscript 09:26:46 yeah, i know :) 09:27:07 objects on the stack pretty much make it a different language that is forth-like 09:28:30 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc4-login38.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 09:28:35 also, implementing forth in another language besides forth or asm tends to result in it not really being a forth.. because forth is like a macro assembler, all the primitives are kind of like macros, they just get plugged in 09:28:57 tcn: xircon supports multiple servers. use the /newserver command. ex. /newserver irc.dal.net 09:29:17 xircon doesn't suck, but i forget why i switch to mirc 09:30:39 Well, the language i've in mind (let call it Jorth for Java-Forth) is obviously not Forth because the purpose of the language will not be to Interact with assembler nor Java-Byte-code 09:31:08 thin: I thought you mean "mup21.html" as your "f21cpu.html" 09:31:18 asau: no 09:31:26 asau: meant f21cpu 09:31:26 Hmm... 09:31:37 asau: check the list of instructions 09:31:55 aleph0: what will it interact with? or will it just be simulated? 09:34:19 Jorth will be intended to be a plug-in to interact with java code, giving the user of a program to be controled by a commad line shell or by Jorth's scripts. 09:35:29 I see Jorth as an alternative to Lisp family languages used within programs such Emacs. 09:35:44 ah 09:35:46 sounds good 09:35:56 asau. list of instructions at f21cpu.html 09:38:12 thin: You mean machineForth is based on f21 instructions? 09:42:01 thin: i switched to mirc. it is bigger than xircon but it's worth it. now if only there was a compelling reason to be here in the first place :) 09:43:53 --- quit: tcn () 09:45:06 asau: no.. f21 instructions is based on machineforth 09:45:17 machineforth is the assembly language of chuck moore's forthchips 09:45:33 there are two forthchip assembly languages i think 09:45:34 cmforth 09:45:36 and machineforth 09:45:45 cmforth was the first time chuck moore designed it 09:45:52 and then he designed machineforth 09:46:11 hmm... 09:46:19 machineforth is probably a little different for f21 09:46:21 than for 09:46:25 C18 09:46:38 C18 is chuck moore's most recent forth cpu 09:46:38 Can you provide links? 09:46:52 the 25X chip has 25 C18 09:46:55 c = core 09:46:59 For I can understand what OS are you going to write. 09:47:10 C18 is same thing as X18 09:47:21 X18.html has a list of instructions too 09:47:33 I see. 09:47:58 X18's list of instructions is similar to f21's list of instructions 09:48:16 Well, I am to go. 09:48:26 both have an assembly language called "machineforth".. just different versions 09:48:34 Isn't it a time to open #forthos? 09:48:40 asau: not yet 09:48:50 asau: not until there's more active development :P 09:49:12 and for more people to hang out on #forthos 09:49:47 Well, I've understood. 09:49:51 I am to go. 09:49:53 Bye! 09:49:56 --- part: ASau left #forth 09:51:07 robert: was i helpful at all? :P 09:51:25 * thin is reading mup21.html right now.. exciting stuff about MISC vs RISC vs CISC :D 10:07:27 --- mode: ChanServ set +o thin 10:07:44 --- mode: thin set -o thin 10:35:03 thin: Yes, and I love you very much, dear. 10:35:13 good good 10:35:15 :D 10:35:20 >:D 10:35:24 I'll check jeff's page. 10:36:23 Might find something interesting ;) 12:09:11 --- part: aleph0 left #forth 12:55:53 --- quit: sif (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:36:17 --- join: laubrac (~lorenzo@APuteaux-105-1-2-88.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #forth 13:51:40 laubrac: welcome 13:52:51 guys: does X18 exist? 13:53:17 --- quit: laubrac ("Fermeture du client") 13:55:58 --- nick: Klaw` -> Klaw 13:59:21 hey! where has the x25 gone from chucks page? 14:04:08 --- join: laubrac (~lorenzo@APuteaux-105-1-2-88.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #forth 14:04:35 onetom: hi 14:04:57 disconnected... 14:05:19 ah, c 14:05:30 hows life? 14:05:40 u r new here, aint ya? 14:05:55 i am 14:06:49 i used to be interested in forth, i tried a bit, but i didn't find any project to dive deeper 14:07:01 i like that kind of language 14:07:16 :) 14:07:33 then this is the right place for ya 14:07:54 bigforth has several serious examples, but 14:08:04 its not forthish enough 14:08:53 ithink forth stands b4 a revolution 14:08:58 i tried a french implementation (turbo forth) and tried to add few asm functions 14:09:05 was fun 14:09:10 :) 14:09:47 i tried TILE and tried adding some primitives written in C 14:09:54 was fun 14:10:20 & also made it more useful for my specific task 14:10:46 i would like to implement a small subset of forth under MVS, for fun, in COBOL (sorry, my job !) 14:10:59 :DD 14:11:09 btw, u meant VMS? 14:11:21 no no MVS, IBM mainframe 14:11:25 os Ms Visual Studio? 14:11:34 s/os/or/ 14:11:49 ah, c. havent heard about MVS yet 14:11:58 no please, don't talk about Microsoft :-) 14:12:02 :)) 14:12:10 iwas just jokin 14:12:34 k, do u know where 2 start w the implementation? 14:12:36 a troll around ?! 14:13:03 i have to find the very basics of the interpreter 14:13:25 i got the source of turbo forth, in x86 asm 14:14:16 i didn't try hard to understand the affinities between the compiler and the interpreter 14:15:04 http://sec.dunasoft.com:9673/forth 14:15:10 this is my personal wiki 14:15:24 is use it as a jott pad for the moment 14:15:41 so there r mostly links on it 14:16:01 and some of my code (syntax highlited 4 fun ;) 14:16:19 there r 2 links what could help u implementing ur own forth 14:16:44 thx, i bookmarked it 14:16:44 the Moving Forth paper and the Build Your Own Forth 14:16:59 very nice 14:17:45 is forth still used in astronomy ? 14:17:58 well... not sure 14:18:13 @least it isnt used as much as b4 14:18:26 what's b4 ? 14:18:30 before 14:18:31 sorry 14:18:35 i'm french 14:18:41 sorry 4 me style :) 14:18:58 newcomers usually dont understand me 14:19:05 no no, keep it 14:19:12 and also hate me 4 me style 14:19:45 but their hate gonna disappear l8r ;) 14:19:48 that's why there's only 13 guys here ? :-) 14:19:56 :DDD 14:20:30 >10 is a nice presentness 14:20:42 :) 14:21:06 b4 chuck moores interview we were usually less than 10 14:21:26 what a success story ! 14:22:13 :) futhin (now known as just thin, what i hate. U HEAR FUTHIN? ;p ) organized the online interview w chuck here 14:22:52 and the peoples of 4th started gathering 1-2days b4 the interview 14:23:09 did you keep the log ? 14:23:24 the audiance has grown 2 ~50 or ~70 persons during the event 14:23:37 oh, not simply me, but 14:23:56 the official logger bot of the channel, clog did so 2 14:24:12 /who clog can help ;) 14:24:31 but futhin has created a beautified version of the logs 14:25:10 and jeff fox (the 2nd most serious "soldier" of 4th) has published it 14:25:35 on his companys website, ultratechnology.com 14:26:18 he s chucks friend & his "workmate" 14:26:29 imean college ;) 14:27:34 http://ultratechnology.com/dindex.htm 14:27:49 thanks 14:28:56 there is the ref 2 the log 14:29:08 i must fantastic to bring up a new language 14:29:42 umean: it must be ... ? 14:29:57 yeah 14:30:00 anyway, its more than a language 14:30:14 its a processor architecture 14:30:30 its a programming style 14:30:34 yes, stack machine 14:30:44 yup, thats it :) 14:30:51 used in interpreters 14:31:01 bytecode i think 14:31:34 yeah, but its just the "simulated" form of the "forth computing environment" 14:31:55 that byte code can actually b the machine code of a real processor 14:32:10 and ultratechnology has created such processors 14:32:28 yes i remenber 14:32:31 and chuck moore has designed many forth processors 14:32:37 forth on a chip 14:32:54 w his chip designer program written in 4th 14:33:06 a ISA card went on 14:33:36 well... 14:34:10 those brand of cpus r more advanced till that time 14:34:40 just dive into the ultratechnology site and chucks colorforth.com 14:34:51 and u gonna b dazzled 14:35:00 i'll ! 14:35:15 eg, i recommend 2 realize a newer generation forth 14:35:25 not the classic 1s 14:35:52 but rather machine forth or color4th 14:36:05 like an OO forth ? 14:36:09 or so ? 14:36:11 ANS 4th is terribly agains the 4th philosophy 14:36:37 OO is also against the nature of 4th 14:37:38 in which way (sorry for the syntax) 14:38:29 well.. it would b hard 2 explain in only a few words 14:38:59 but u gonna know & understand when the time comes 14:39:21 1st read about chucks philosophy 14:39:27 i know that we build forth program the opposit way we do with other languages 14:39:34 small pieces to big ones 14:39:45 have a look @ his few src examples 14:40:07 and so on, so u can understand whats wrong w OO&4ht 14:40:08 4th 14:40:36 k, in a nut shell: 14:40:55 4th encourages making small programs 14:41:14 & u really CAN create small 1s in 4th 14:41:24 Good evening, fellow forth addicts. 14:41:36 Hi 14:42:04 1 component of this ability is 2 write early binded code 14:42:13 not using late binding 14:42:31 which is 1 of the base of OO programming 14:43:08 infact i did a lot of programming in delphi 14:43:27 & has found its OOPascal very powerful 14:43:39 but not so fun ? 14:44:17 & still can understand how can i b more productiove in 4th w/o OO 14:44:34 i havent seen enough solutions in non OO 4th 14:44:54 & i havent solved engouh problems in 4th by myself 14:46:03 what kind of problems do you solve with 4th, in your job ? 14:46:32 but ive started 2 feel OO can b avoided so the app size can b further tightened 14:46:51 hehe, im an embedded programmer in my job 14:47:08 ive built a house control system in 4th 14:47:15 but i got stucked w it 14:47:18 :-) 14:47:50 im gonna rewrite the whole system next yr, but not in ANS style! never, no more ANS! :) 14:48:14 why ? what's wrong with ANS ? 14:48:23 i dont know am i capable of that, but gonna c 14:48:43 ANS made 4th look like C 14:49:10 so made it "impotent" ;) 14:49:46 made sg what encourages the programmer 2 program just as general as in C 14:50:00 who made the ANS ? 14:50:12 nobody cared about that ? 14:50:16 and also encourages him/her 2 try 2 create portable code 14:50:31 good question 14:50:50 some kind of 4th programmers has created it 14:51:25 and the r some ideas behind it what seem obvious 4 the 1st glance 14:51:39 but if u start 2 explore this problem domain 14:51:47 they turn unobvious 14:52:14 an makes the more talented ppl contemplate about it 14:52:39 think more globally and create things like forth chips :) 14:52:46 gotta go 14:52:53 be back in an hour 14:53:06 ok maybe i won't be here 14:53:12 but thank 14:53:13 talk 2 robert meanwhile im away and read the links i gave ya 14:53:27 k, cul8r then 14:53:33 ok thank again 14:53:38 & the 4th b w ya ;) 14:53:44 :) 14:54:14 twas me honour 2 teach ya 14:54:54 pleased too 14:57:20 hi onetom :) 14:57:25 * thin is reading backlog now 15:12:40 --- part: Klaw left #forth 15:47:08 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc3-login6.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 15:48:57 Hello, tcn :) 16:10:46 bye :) 16:10:50 --- quit: tcn () 16:23:46 thin: hi 16:23:53 me back 16:25:59