00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.09.12
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03:56:01 <Serg_penguin> hi
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04:40:49 <ASau> Good afternoon!
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06:54:49 <Serg_penguin> hi
06:55:19 <Serg_penguin> he-e-e-e-e-ey !
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08:06:25 <Herkamire> yo
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09:16:09 <sbk_> is someone here familiar with the ultrasparc architecture (ecache related question)
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14:06:24 <Speuler> 'day
14:07:14 <Herkamire> allo
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15:07:02 <Klaw> Beep
15:10:34 <Kitanin> Boop
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16:01:52 <galexand> okay so i have a pen (or mouse) and approximately 9 buttons...what is the best forth ui
16:06:39 <tcn> i dunno..maybe 1 and 0 for numeric input, and some common math & stack operations
16:08:08 <tcn> just kidding :)  it would have to be a menu interface and maybe a chording keyboard
16:09:55 <galexand> i'm thinking menu interface yeah
16:12:33 <tcn> i dunno what you're trying to do.. 9 buttons ain't much good for programming
16:12:44 <tcn> it would be like VCR programming
16:14:40 <galexand> tcn how dare you utter that in a channel that has a link to UT in the topic with the lofty title of home of forth :)
16:16:04 <tcn> so what's this thing going to be used for?
16:17:33 <galexand> fun :)
16:18:56 <tcn> is the computer inside it?
16:19:11 <galexand> it is an ipaq :)
16:19:17 <galexand> (palmtop running linux)
16:19:23 <tcn> oh
16:19:55 <tcn> just use the normal interface, it's better
16:20:25 <tcn> dunno about ipaq's but the palm pilot i tried had no trouble reading my writing :)
16:36:42 <galexand> writing is pretty crappy for coding :)
16:37:25 <tcn> yes
16:37:44 <tcn> you really need about 64 keys to have a useful computer
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17:02:17 <tcn> http://tunes.org/~tcn/pub/tunes.c - it's not vapor anymore!
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17:12:10 <tcn> hey this looks useful.. http://freespace.virgin.net/paul.edwards3/program.htm
17:17:53 <I440r> what is tunes.c ?? :)
17:21:34 <tcn> go look at it
17:22:44 <I440r> i tried
17:22:53 <I440r> it downloads immediately to file size zero
17:22:59 <I440r> not YOUR fault
17:23:04 <I440r> i think its a bug in netscape 7
17:26:44 <tcn> i'm using 4.7
17:27:08 <tcn> or just use IE
17:27:46 <I440r> tcn are u in windows ?
17:27:49 <I440r> or linux
17:27:50 <tcn> yeah, it's there, netscrape sucks.
17:27:59 <tcn> windows
17:28:23 <tcn> if you're in linux you should be using lynx
17:28:30 <I440r> i just discoverd i had spyware installed and FINALLY managed to find something to remove it
17:28:53 <I440r> if you dont have ad-aware (www.lavasoftusa.com) go get it
17:31:03 <tcn> yeah, i ran that the other day and it took out half of my background processes :)
17:31:33 <I440r> good
17:31:37 <I440r> they were spyware :P
17:31:47 <tcn> yup. even had gator.
17:31:55 <I440r> everyone has taht :P
17:32:11 <I440r> i told a friend of mine to run it and it removed 600 files from here machine
17:32:14 <I440r> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
17:32:16 <tcn> ahhahaah
17:32:32 <I440r> im gona register it
17:32:34 <tcn> so you get this crap just by using java/js/activex?
17:32:43 <I440r> no
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17:32:48 <I440r> do you have winace ?
17:32:52 <tcn> nope
17:33:08 <I440r> the freeware version of winace (not available any more) installed webhancer
17:33:28 <I440r> it was only free because webhancer paid winace to propogate them 
17:33:48 <I440r> alot of "freeware" programs are REALY just means of propogating spyware viri
17:34:04 <I440r> and theres SOME that will REMOVE ad-aware without your say so
17:34:16 <I440r> some delete and replace your winsock32.dll
17:34:27 <I440r> another replaces explorer.exe
17:35:27 <tcn> right
17:36:03 <I440r> theres a democratic senator down south try9ing to make spyware illegal
17:36:08 <I440r> i forget who
17:36:13 <I440r> i might donate to his cause. 
17:36:14 <I440r> eep!!!!!!!!!
17:36:17 <I440r> me!!!!!!!!!!!1
17:36:25 <I440r> donating to a DEMOCRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
17:36:31 <tcn> hahaha
17:36:33 * I440r falls over dead
17:36:59 <tcn> what's wrong with you man?? yyou need a nanny state to protect you from spyware?
17:37:07 <tathi> I don't have that kind of problems much heh
17:37:26 <I440r> mac abuser ?
17:37:30 <tathi> PPC machine running Linux :)
17:37:34 <I440r> heh
17:37:42 <I440r> im sure therse spyware for linux out there
17:37:49 <tathi> lynx & dillo for web browsing, RMAIL for e-mail
17:38:17 <tathi> I suppose. It would have a really hard time getting run on my machine though
17:38:34 <tathi> I'm not using SysVInit or anything, I wrote my own
17:38:56 <I440r> :)
17:41:07 <Fractal> Gotta love naive americans who actually think there's a difference between their 2 political parties...
17:43:45 <tathi> :)
17:43:49 <Fractal> :)
17:44:29 <tcn> i guess your country doesn't give you a choice
17:45:42 <Fractal> On the contrary, my country actually has a political system that works.
17:45:56 <Fractal> Read: The party that gets the most votes winds. Amazing, eh?
17:46:00 <tcn> the republicans aren't as conservative as i'd like but they're not democrats
17:46:02 <Fractal> Wins, that is.
17:46:21 <tcn> we'd like that here
17:46:36 <tcn> the candidate, not the damn party
17:47:05 <Fractal> Well, no offence, but the US could have a baboon in the white house and it wouldn't make any difference.
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17:49:30 <Fractal> Heh. What am I saying? They've already got a baboon in the white house. :)
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17:53:03 <tcn> he's better than i expected
17:54:08 <Fractal> Well... he certainly knows how to play along with public emotions, that's true.
17:54:34 <Fractal> As for his politics, it's about what I expected: He's a mouthpiece for the oil companies.
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18:14:23 <I440r> your just parroting the clinton news network and the liberal bed wetters media
18:20:52 <Fractal> Don't forget every intelligent, freethinking, non-american on the planet.
18:22:13 <CrowKiller> the united states are talking shit with the september 11, they made it all the way up,theres simply no plane that crashed in the pentagon
18:22:22 <CrowKiller> we could clearly see that on television
18:22:32 <CrowKiller> no joke
18:23:25 <Fractal> Ha! Well, that's a little over the top. But there's no doubt they used it as leverage. Brainwash the public, and take over afghanistand and iraq.
18:23:37 <Fractal> Good job, Bush.
18:24:41 <Fractal> Seriously, when I watch american media, I'm sickened by the propaganda campaign they're running.
18:24:45 <CrowKiller> http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm
18:24:52 <CrowKiller> i hate american patriotism
18:24:52 <Fractal> It's gotten a little better since.
18:25:18 <CrowKiller> i laugehd at a whole brainwashed nation when i went to the oshkosh air venture show in Wisconsin last summer
18:25:51 <CrowKiller> there was flags EVERYWHERE, I seriously mean it
18:26:52 <CrowKiller> even the skydivers made a show with one last man jumping and deploying a giant flag under him and a live female mariah carrey like singer sang in front of all, and everyone was with their hand on their heart
18:27:07 <CrowKiller> i saw strangers who like me continued to walk and check around
18:27:11 <Fractal> Nothing wrong with patriotism. I just don't like how they don't actually support their own very ideals, like freedom of speech, etc.
18:27:45 <CrowKiller> anyway, forth comes from the us so its kind of a grey zone ;p
18:27:52 <Fractal> It was ridiculous the censorship that went on after september 11th.
18:28:27 <Fractal> Nonsense. Many intelligent, articulate people live in the US.
18:28:34 <CrowKiller> look at the link
18:28:38 <CrowKiller> those are actual shots
18:28:56 <CrowKiller> html layout for a slide show btw
18:29:49 <Fractal> Circumstance and speculation. I don't intend to take this to heart.
18:29:53 <CrowKiller> The photograph in question 4 shows a truck pouring sand over the lawn of the Pentagon. Behind it a bulldozer is seen spreading gravel over the turf.
18:29:54 <CrowKiller> Can you explain why the Defence Secretary deemed it necessary to sand over the lawn, which was otherwise undamaged after the attack?
18:30:21 <CrowKiller> hahahah!
18:31:42 <Fractal> You're forgetting one tiny detail: Why the fuck would they bomb their own pentagon, which caused almost negligible outrage compared to the trade centres?
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18:33:19 <CrowKiller> you are forgetting one tiny detail those are actual photos
18:33:28 <CrowKiller> from the army and the media
18:33:33 <CrowKiller> read the page
18:34:35 <Fractal> So, how many other jet bombings on one of the most structurally secure buildings on the planet have you examined?
18:35:55 <CrowKiller> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1907955.stm
18:36:07 <Fractal> So, all the eyewitnesses and victim's families must be in the US governments pay, no doubt?
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18:37:32 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all...will be brief
18:37:39 <Fractal> Maybe they used their secrets mind washing technology that they're holding in area 51, and that they picked up from the roswell aliens?
18:38:01 <TheBlueWizard> you mean brainwashing?
18:38:22 <Fractal> TheBlueWizard : Did you know that the pentagon really wasn't attacked on 9/11?
18:38:46 <Fractal> It's all an elaborate plot by the US government.
18:39:10 <TheBlueWizard> I saw the damage myself, though not the attack, and you're definitely lying
18:39:15 <Fractal> Even though there's no conceivable motive for it.
18:39:50 <CrowKiller> http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache:b7zD4u6C5scC:www.mdw.army.mil/news/news_photos/911/+plane+pentagon+crash&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
18:39:56 <Fractal> TheBlueWizard : Hey, when a couple of 13 year old mexicans download pictures off of CNN and make a website, I don't ask questions.
18:39:56 <CrowKiller> mil site censored
18:39:57 * TheBlueWizard has seen websites claiming such schlocky things like US conspiracy...so sick n lame
18:40:32 <CrowKiller> some pictures seem false
18:40:47 <CrowKiller> but most of them show no plane
18:40:54 * TheBlueWizard decides CrowKiller and Fractal aren't worth arguing with and will leave
18:40:59 <CrowKiller> and this mil site was censored
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18:41:07 <Fractal> Ha! Moron.
18:41:08 <CrowKiller> lol
18:41:59 <CrowKiller> fractl resist the evidence im not arguing, because ill shut up right now knowing the majority of shots seems 100% real
18:42:04 <CrowKiller> ;pp
18:43:04 <Fractal> Whatever. Unlike thebluewizard, I will actually consider opinions. This one is, well, obviously wrong, though. :)
18:43:15 <Fractal> The JFK assassination, however.
18:44:07 <Fractal> Fairly obviously done by the CIA...
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18:46:43 <CrowKiller> http://www.army.mil/usar/multimedia/disastergalleries/burgess/burgessgallery.html
18:46:48 <CrowKiller> this site isnt censored yet
18:47:33 <CrowKiller> look at the secret service guys caring wreckage
18:47:48 <CrowKiller> and do you see a plane? hmm im not
18:49:05 <CrowKiller> explain this to me and ill stop believing in those stupid things
18:49:24 <Klaw> those look like nuclear blast marks to me
18:49:48 <CrowKiller> people tell me HYPERSCIENCE is crap (search that word on google and look by yourslef)
18:50:11 <CrowKiller> but its THE science of the future, people start to recognize that quantum physics are all about information
18:50:21 <Klaw> people tell me to stop following them
18:50:22 <CrowKiller> this site was already full of the info
18:50:39 <CrowKiller> what do you mean?
18:50:53 <Klaw> joke
18:52:08 <Klaw> show me a page w/ good definition of hyperscience
18:52:10 <Klaw> i looked
18:53:18 <CrowKiller> hyperscience is not related to the previous topic
18:53:23 <CrowKiller> of pentagon crash
18:53:28 <Klaw> ok?
18:53:37 <CrowKiller> its just pure science/physics/religion
18:53:49 <Klaw> i typed hyperscience into google.. and got vague definitions
18:53:57 <CrowKiller> http://www.hatem.com/hyperscience.htm
18:54:06 <Klaw> yeah, thats the one
18:54:09 <CrowKiller> its primary language is french
18:54:18 <CrowKiller> the french site are much better
18:54:23 <CrowKiller> sites*
18:55:28 <Klaw> well i know a little bit of spanish, maybe i can fake it 
18:55:29 <Klaw> :P
18:55:42 <CrowKiller> http://www.hatem.com/metah.htm
18:55:46 <CrowKiller> its in english
18:55:54 <CrowKiller> sgtrat from here, te theory is simple
18:55:57 <CrowKiller> start*
18:59:49 <CrowKiller> quote for others:
18:59:50 <CrowKiller> Our new epistemology merges " truth " and " Science " instead of simply stating that what is true is unscientific, and what is scientific is not true. It becomes possible. By acknowledging the primary axiom of Logic, it becomes possible to build a science of truth. The primary axiom is a synonym of Logic itself. We call it
18:59:50 <CrowKiller> " Nothingness' Necessity ",
18:59:50 <CrowKiller> the only logical starting point.
19:00:08 <Klaw> philosophy
19:00:15 <CrowKiller> The stuff that follows is truly the best science I saw
19:00:18 <CrowKiller> its the basic
19:00:25 <CrowKiller> the otehr pages
19:00:35 <Klaw> it's a mushroom or acid trip
19:00:36 <CrowKiller> talk about only one force, electromagnetic force in duality
19:00:51 <CrowKiller> magnteic force alone can explain perpetual movement
19:01:00 <CrowKiller> look at the site
19:01:13 <CrowKiller> Im sure you be disapointed
19:01:17 <Klaw> ?
19:01:33 <CrowKiller> write them an email if you dont believe in it, maybe they will respond or ignore you i dont know
19:01:37 <Klaw> it reads a lot like one of my stronger mushroom trips
19:01:47 <CrowKiller> mushrooms are sacred
19:01:53 <Klaw> I have no feedback for him other than he is in need of a nicer design
19:01:58 <CrowKiller> i had wonderful trips i consider sacred
19:01:59 <Klaw> aesthetics are sacred
19:02:20 <Klaw> i considered my quantum theory/philsophy one out of hand
19:03:04 <Klaw> but it got me to read my quantum theory book again
19:03:15 <Klaw> i'm considering purchasing one that was written this century
19:03:19 <Klaw> any suggestions?
19:05:15 <CrowKiller> quantum mechanics are only information
19:05:31 <CrowKiller> look at zellinger website about quantum physics
19:06:17 <CrowKiller> http://www.quantum.univie.ac.at/
19:06:29 <CrowKiller> zeilinger sorry
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19:07:28 <CrowKiller> http://www.quantum.univie.ac.at/links/newscientist/bit.html
19:07:32 <CrowKiller> this is the link to read
19:10:22 <CrowKiller> quote:
19:10:24 <CrowKiller> Zeilinger avoids the question "What is an elementary system?" and asks instead, "What can be said about an elementary system?" His conclusion is simply stated: an elementary system carries one bit of information.
19:10:42 <CrowKiller> this says the same thing as hyperscience
19:10:51 <CrowKiller> they "discovered> it
19:10:53 <CrowKiller> ;pp
19:11:01 <CrowKiller> "*
19:11:44 <Klaw> anything more than nihalism is philosophy to me
19:11:53 <Klaw> o
19:12:08 <Klaw> i'm just saying the name is improper and it needs a redesign
19:12:12 <Klaw> and maybe some editing
19:15:07 <CrowKiller> im talking about hyperscience to everybody I know, even teachers
19:17:23 <Klaw> "even teachers"
19:17:24 <Klaw> :P~
19:18:30 <tcn> do they humor you? heh
19:18:50 <Klaw> not the protestants
19:19:53 <tcn> oh I heard the catholic school here hired a baptist football coach :)
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19:20:37 <Klaw> thats when you know they want to win
19:23:09 <Klaw> i remember when i first learned about RPN
19:23:17 <Klaw> started going around telling/asking people about it
19:24:33 <tcn> hehe
19:25:14 <tcn> it seems like the answer to everything, at first
19:25:20 <CrowKiller> yeah tehy laugh at me but the truth is out there, only have to make the link between things, hyperscience is a big chunk, anton zeilinger<s work is a more serious chunk
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19:26:22 <Klaw> trillian is being uncool
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19:38:03 <Klaw> Or, if you prefer, there's the guiding wave interpretation, which assigns an undetectable "pilot wave" to each particle to steer it along a perfectly determined path
19:38:10 <Klaw> i liked donny darko
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19:57:03 <thin> bah!
19:57:17 <thin> missed tcn
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20:21:20 <thin> hi i440r :)
20:22:17 <I440r> hi
20:23:43 <thin> whats up
20:23:46 <thin> how's it hanging?
20:24:07 <I440r> not bad :)
20:24:17 <I440r> did alot of NOTHING again today
20:24:29 <thin> yay :D
20:24:40 <thin> well i've been reading "The Humane Interface" by Jef Raskin
20:24:43 <thin> and you're right
20:24:48 <thin> VI has a shitty interface :)
20:24:56 <thin> and it's nothing like the humane interface
20:25:07 <thin> i only said it was cause kc5tja remarked something like that 
20:25:42 <I440r> heh
20:26:44 <thin> actually, the humane interface is TOTALLY cool
20:26:53 <thin> it's nothing like we've ever really used before
20:27:00 <thin> none of that lame desktop paradigm
20:27:03 <thin> or console paradigm
20:27:08 <thin> it's really cool
20:27:20 <thin> and this has gotta be one of the best written books i've ever read
20:27:46 <thin> it's extremely rational, and he makes sure to define all the major words, or to make it clear which definition he's using
20:27:59 <thin> and he builds up from our knowledge of human cognition
20:28:17 <thin> and has lots of references to all the studies he got his info from
20:28:19 <I440r> :)
20:28:23 <I440r> cool
20:28:26 <thin> i recommend the book to all
20:28:43 <I440r> copy it by hand, scan it, then email it to me :)
20:28:44 <thin> it's fairly straightforward, easy reading, some thinking, and some insights and learning
20:28:47 <thin> heh
20:30:08 <thin> i440r: in fact, i think the melding of the humane interface and forth could bring about something extremely awesome
20:30:32 <I440r> well dont use the TUI as it is now, i need to change it
20:31:21 <thin> eh
20:31:23 <thin> don't worry
20:31:29 <thin> you're tui couldn't handle it! :P
20:31:33 <thin> ew
20:31:37 <thin> s/you're/your
20:31:38 <I440r> oh, i forgot, your too lazy to code :)
20:36:05 <thin> nah
20:36:22 <I440r> :P
20:43:53 <thin> just lemme play muds for 1.5 years first
20:43:57 <thin> and then i'll be ready to code 
20:44:14 <I440r> lol
20:44:22 <I440r> isforth might be ready for you by then :P
20:44:49 <thin> i probably won't, i'm already thinking about a forthsystem ontop of a machineforth vm..  a forthos y'know :P
20:45:07 <thin> well
20:45:16 <thin> i still want to do the mud
20:45:25 <thin> i'll prolly do that on top of isforth
20:45:31 <thin> we could work together ;P
20:45:50 <thin> i was thinking that the database would be stored in the dictionary..
20:45:52 <thin> like
20:45:57 <thin> load database.f
20:46:04 <thin> and it looks like forth code
20:46:27 <thin> : thin user human mage <etc> ;
20:46:31 <thin> i dunno
20:47:08 <I440r> :P
20:47:16 <thin> seriously tho
20:47:19 <thin> how would you handle the database?
20:47:27 <thin> i was thinking of an object oriented system
20:47:29 <thin> for the mud
20:47:47 <I440r> im gona shoot you
20:47:51 <thin> and maybe it would be a good programming trick to code the database in forth
20:47:51 <I440r> weres my gun!
20:47:53 <thin> heh
20:47:58 <thin> no
20:48:07 <thin> i'm not talking about gay assed classes or structs or whatever
20:48:16 <thin> i'm just talking about an object system
20:48:22 <thin> and it's not something you have to implement
20:48:28 <thin> like
20:48:29 <I440r> :P
20:48:32 <thin> : human  blahblah ;
20:48:41 <thin> : thin  user  human mage blahblah ;
20:48:46 <thin> that's sort of an object system
20:48:54 <thin> thin gets properties from the human word
20:48:55 <thin> etc
20:49:46 <I440r> u think users should all be : definitions ?
20:49:59 <I440r> that might make sense, every time a user is added a new word is created :)
20:50:57 <thin> yeah
20:51:03 <thin> well i don't know about the users
20:51:07 <thin> but for everything else
20:51:08 <thin> yeah
20:51:45 <thin> like some objects have properties of other objects..
20:53:02 <thin> i was thinking that it would be nice for the players to be able to build stuff..  like they get an ax, go whack down a tree, carry the tree back to camp, chip it down into a canoe.. or get flour, water, yeast and cook some bread
20:53:03 <thin> etc
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20:55:22 <I440r> that would be cool if we did it right
20:55:26 <I440r> have you ever played teh settlers ?
20:55:28 <I440r> its like that
20:55:33 <I440r> cause and effect
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20:56:03 <I440r> wb :)
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21:01:48 <thin> i440r:  hmm, i ran it..  tried to play it a little, but the graphics were so horrid i just couldn't play for long heh :P
21:01:54 <thin> it's like dune
21:01:55 <thin> er
21:01:56 <thin> dune 2
21:01:59 <thin> i played dune 2
21:02:07 <thin> the first real time strategy game
21:02:07 <onetom_> hi
21:02:09 <thin> apparently
21:02:15 <thin> and it's a great game, fun, etc
21:02:23 <thin> but then i got ruined by warcraft 2 & starcraft
21:02:27 <I440r> no dune 2 is good too tho
21:02:35 <thin> they make it soooo easy to select multiple men
21:02:38 <I440r> but it doesnt even come CLOSE to the playability of teh settlers
21:02:42 <onetom_> yay, what is that _ & wheres crow? can see his departing... irssi sux :/
21:02:45 <thin> and you can't select multiple men in dune 2
21:02:59 <I440r> yes you can
21:03:00 <thin> so i can't play dune 2 anymore..  too hard heh :P
21:03:10 <I440r> you can rubber-band a box arround them
21:03:26 <onetom_> thin: tcn's latest link: http://freespace.virgin.net/paul.edwards3/program.htm
21:04:11 <thin> onetom: already went there :P
21:04:40 <onetom_> this hyperscience/quantim physics stuff is pretty exciting & mind refreshing
21:04:59 <thin> onetom:  "the humane interface" is a book that i HIGHLY recommend :)
21:05:00 <onetom_> but cant really distract me from the real world yet
21:05:04 <thin> onetom: by jef raskin
21:05:12 <onetom_> as far as im in the real world @ all :)
21:05:25 <onetom_> thin: book book book.... url?
21:07:35 <thin> onetom: it's a paper book
21:07:48 <thin> but you can get some info at http://humane.sf.net
21:18:09 <onetom_> its strange that we r talking about a lot of things here but so rarely about forth :)
21:18:14 --- nick: onetom_ -> onetom
21:18:43 <I440r> heh
21:18:50 <I440r> its all forth
21:18:51 <onetom> but i like it
21:18:55 <I440r> your just not listening!
21:19:06 <onetom> yeah, in its deep meaning, it is :)
21:19:33 <onetom> i love 2 learn w u, ppl of #4th
21:20:11 <onetom> so many useful an exciting themes r comin up
21:24:41 <thin> seriously tho the key to the forth os is
21:24:42 <thin> forth
21:24:44 <thin> and
21:24:47 <thin> the humane interface
21:24:57 <thin> and that's about it
21:25:01 <thin> some secondary ideas like
21:25:03 <thin> exokernel
21:25:08 <thin> orthogonal persistence, etc
21:26:50 <thin> the humane interface simplifies the user-computer interface by 100x
21:26:57 <thin> just like forth simplifies code 100x :P
21:31:18 <thin> interesting link of the day:  http://www.vijaymukhi.com/vmis/roll.htm
21:39:53 <onetom> wow, watta comprehensive work :)
21:40:13 <thin> i go to bed now
21:40:34 <onetom> gnight
21:41:38 <thin> okay, ta ta
21:41:42 <thin> have a good day
21:41:48 <onetom> :) thx
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