00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.09.09 00:05:41 --- quit: proteus (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:06:02 --- join: proteus (~proteusgu@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 00:16:52 --- quit: Serg_penguin (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:52:02 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 00:56:48 --- quit: proteus (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 01:06:24 --- join: proteus (~proteusgu@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 01:21:53 --- quit: Serg_penguin () 01:56:51 --- quit: proteus (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 02:05:44 --- join: proteus (~proteusgu@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 02:12:03 --- quit: QuestionC ("ChatZilla 0.8.7 [Mozilla rv:1.0.0/20020530]") 02:26:33 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 02:29:57 hi 02:30:10 who wants to write game in forth ? 02:35:23 --- quit: Serg_penguin () 02:51:38 --- quit: skylan (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 02:51:38 --- quit: Robert (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 02:51:38 --- quit: Fractal (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 02:53:27 --- join: Robert (~Robert@robost86.tsps1.freenet6.net) joined #forth 02:53:27 --- join: skylan (sjh@Rockcliffe55.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 02:53:27 --- join: Fractal (aht@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth 02:55:18 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 03:05:00 --- quit: proteus (Connection timed out) 03:05:03 --- join: proteus (~proteusgu@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 03:06:20 --- quit: Serg_penguin () 03:40:34 --- quit: proteus (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:40:34 --- quit: skylan (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:40:34 --- quit: Robert (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:40:34 --- quit: Fractal (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:41:13 --- join: proteus (~proteusgu@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 03:41:13 --- join: Robert (~Robert@robost86.tsps1.freenet6.net) joined #forth 03:41:13 --- join: skylan (sjh@Rockcliffe55.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 03:41:13 --- join: Fractal (aht@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth 03:57:26 --- quit: proteus (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 04:06:05 --- join: proteus (~proteusgu@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 05:02:27 --- join: yeahright (~proteusgu@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 05:05:28 --- quit: proteus (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:37:41 --- join: cleverdra (julianf@0-2pool111-49.nas2.florence1.sc.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 05:45:52 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 05:45:58 hi 05:46:43 does one want to write a game in forth ? 05:48:01 What kind of game? 05:48:18 preferably - logical, turn based 05:48:21 maybe RPG 05:48:39 maybe wargame or star combat.... 05:49:06 really tiny one, no eye-candy 05:49:47 i'm in doubt between fantasy rpg and turn-based Elite-like 05:50:16 If *no* eye-candy is the goal, you can do a great deal with a typographical system. 05:50:50 i mean 'radar-like' gfx 05:51:05 imagine Microprose F-19 05:51:16 I'm not familiar with that game. 05:51:16 or Nethack, Angband... 05:51:38 NetHand,Angband is implementable with a typographical system =) 05:51:48 (with a lot of state, true) 05:51:54 10-30 flat polygons per aircraft or ground target 05:52:07 F-19 i mean 05:52:45 my sokoban is two versions - ASCII art and VGA 13h 05:53:27 so it's real for me... 05:54:19 for RPG, i mean VGA 13h w/ icons and bars 05:54:32 * cleverdra nods. 05:55:02 like life in RT strategies, but more bars - level ( relative to player ), agression/peacefulness etc... 05:55:46 and some iconic signs - biped, flyer, swimmer, mage, fighter, fire/cold/poison spewer.... 05:56:43 big "main" icon, 4 icons of "class" in corners, and bars.. 05:56:53 it maybe will take 800x600... 05:58:39 ----- 05:59:05 so, i may stand for coder and project manager, but i need gameplay designer 06:05:28 --- quit: yeahright (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:05:40 --- join: yeahright (~proteusgu@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 06:06:02 --- join: tathi (~josh@ip68-9-68-213.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 06:07:45 Serg - yeah, having a game to write it crucial to writing a game. 06:08:25 Serg - take a look at http://www.costik.com/nowords.html 06:09:50 saved,will read 06:20:48 oh hey, it's also at http://newgame.agava.ru/rus/a_nowords.html 06:25:03 kewl, u know rus ? 06:25:49 No, I just noticed the link. 06:59:24 --- quit: Serg_penguin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:04:51 --- quit: yeahright (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:05:32 --- join: yeahright (~proteusgu@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 07:17:27 cleverdra: hey, i read the First Contract by costikyan, awesome book :D 07:17:47 (www.costik.com) 07:23:45 Cool. I haven't. 07:24:03 well if you need to know, it's an AWESOME book! 07:24:10 it was _very_ enjoyable :) 07:24:13 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 07:24:22 i even emailed costikyan thanking him for the book ;P 07:25:35 book ? what ? link ? 07:25:48 http://www.costik.com 07:25:54 it's a sci-fi & economic book 07:25:58 very light reading 07:26:00 humourous 07:26:02 enjoyable 07:26:09 finished it off in like 3-4 hours 07:27:48 ok, no interest 07:28:02 but his article on game design seems cool - will read 07:33:47 --- quit: Serg_penguin () 08:01:12 --- join: sif (~sifforth@ip68-9-70-120.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 08:01:12 Type sif: (or /msg sif to play in private) 08:05:28 --- quit: yeahright (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:05:51 --- join: yeahright (~proteusgu@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 08:25:51 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 09:04:49 --- quit: yeahright (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:04:49 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:05:11 --- join: yeahright (~proteusgu@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 09:23:06 --- quit: yeahright ("Client Exiting") 10:25:56 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 10:50:25 --- join: miket2 (Mike@modem-33-4-60-62.vip.uk.com) joined #forth 10:50:25 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:51:06 --- part: miket2 left #forth 11:09:34 --- nick: ian[gone] -> ian[OCIyuck] 11:29:50 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust203.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 11:38:26 --- quit: cleverdra (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:41:40 --- join: cleverdra (julianf@0-2pool111-49.nas2.florence1.sc.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 12:10:25 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 12:11:08 --- nick: ian[OCIyuck] -> ian[oci] 12:13:10 --- join: skylan (sjh@Rockcliffe48.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 12:26:02 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 12:28:07 --- quit: cleverdra (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:32:19 --- join: cleverdra (julianf@0-2pool111-49.nas2.florence1.sc.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 12:37:12 --- nick: cleverdra -> mute 12:39:17 --- join: sereph (~sereph@ncdial2-176-1-nc.nordcom.net) joined #forth 12:39:21 hi every1 12:39:35 hi 12:39:46 sereph is a forth coder ??? :) 12:39:50 been here before? 12:39:58 i dont recognize the nick :) 12:40:00 no forth coder, but been here before, yes 12:40:11 do you recognise ``nrw'' or ``nilsw''? 12:40:43 ohhh ya :) 12:40:47 Or "cenbri", "curbster", "curby", "kerby", "kerber0s"? 12:40:59 thats alot of nicks heh 12:41:02 ah, rob never forgets those names :( 12:41:09 sereph: Nope :D 12:41:22 sereph: I know my nicks too, "rob_ert" and "Robert". :) 12:41:34 i can't remember ``rob_ert'' 12:42:29 :D 12:43:40 so why don't you guys discuss about forth? 12:43:58 can anybody tell me how to use raw sockets using forth? :) 12:44:11 with*. eek 12:44:30 sereph ill be releasing my sockets code for isforth soon :) 12:44:37 next release will have it in 12:44:44 but its not raw sockets 12:44:53 When will 1.09b be out? 12:44:58 it already is 12:45:03 Oh, great. 12:45:05 surprising your project is still alive :). it has obviously turned out great 12:45:07 * Robert will get it. 12:45:13 I440r: What's new? 12:45:19 I440r: Dynamic memory managment? 12:45:20 sereph you thunked isforth was gona die ? 12:45:31 robert yes thats in there, so is the text windowing code 12:45:37 but im changing that code too 12:45:41 Oooh, fancy. 12:46:05 no, but it's relatively old. i never spend more than a few months with a particular project. but then again, i don't produce great things 12:46:29 heh its 2 years old now but i had an entire year off 12:46:40 actually, it might be 2.5 years old or something heh 12:47:03 2.5 years ago, I was coding DOS games :P 12:47:12 Long time ago, hehe. 12:47:17 :P 12:47:19 heheh 12:47:30 two years ago, i didn't code at all 12:47:37 2.5 years ago i was sitting in here by myself :) 12:49:54 Where are you sitting now, and with who? 12:50:09 naked girls. many of them 12:50:35 I bet you're right. 12:50:59 send me some of those naked girls :) 12:51:08 * Robert DCCs. 12:51:33 Would your mom call you a pervert if I sent you my 11 year old sister? 12:52:34 i would have to send her back :P 12:53:03 rob, in some years (maybe 5, maybe 10) when i move to sweden, i can take care of her 12:53:25 sereph: Nice of you :P 12:53:31 anytime bud 12:53:36 Doubt she'll ever leave you alone, though :P 12:53:47 good 12:54:07 She likes...eh... watching TV ads and... uhh... can't think of much more. 12:54:15 Playing cards. 12:54:55 Robert: hey, dont advertise her so intensivly! ;) 12:55:09 onetom: Bah ;) 12:55:27 and you like.. um .. computers. that's all i think ;D 12:55:34 sereph: :DDD 12:55:36 Correct. 12:56:49 * bwb goes to download is_forth 12:57:12 BWB stands for By Water Basic. 12:57:24 I Have Become Pure Water, Robert 12:57:31 A famous basic interpreter. Your duty is to port it to Forth, bwb. 12:57:32 bean with bacon megarocket 12:57:35 (commander keen) 12:57:47 bwb: :) 12:57:54 heh 12:57:54 Why do everyone love Commander Keen? 12:58:09 I've played that game some, but I don't find it THAT good. 12:58:19 It's a niec game, sure, but nothing I can't live without. 12:58:21 nice* 12:58:37 first real game i prolly played (at least first one i can remember) 12:59:35 mine 1st 1 was jetpac & horace goes skiing ;) 12:59:55 and cats.exe on pc 13:01:47 i think i started with duke nukum (yes, not nukem!) part 1. i played it so damn often, at the end i was able to play through the entire game in less than 8 minutes (i stopped the time) 13:02:20 I440r: isforth be DTC? 13:04:26 It's direct threaded, yes. 13:04:46 (I hope DTC doesn't stand for something else in this case :-) 13:05:03 direct threaded yes 13:05:34 Robert: ? what else could it b? 13:05:53 I440r: just out of curiousity, why not ITC or STC? 13:06:01 onetom: No idea, people make up such stupud acronyms. 13:06:08 ITC is slow :P 13:06:10 Robert: :)) ok 13:06:25 but itc is clean 13:06:27 onetom: besides, it looks just like WTC 13:06:32 lollllllll 13:06:33 WTC, WTF, ITC 13:06:49 sorry 13:06:54 LOL!! 13:07:13 ROFL LOR~ 13:07:19 ITC not slow, at least on pentiums and up 13:07:30 is wossname a #forth regular? 13:07:34 itc is a local computer dealer company here in szeged, where i live :) 13:07:49 and there is also idc 13:07:55 sereph: No. 13:08:04 bwb: why? 13:08:08 sereph: But you're a wossname regular. 13:08:09 onetom: ITC = Indirect Threaded Code, DTC = Direct Threaded Code, STC = Subroutine Threaded Code 13:08:25 it just requires a jmp [w] instead of jmp w 13:08:41 bwb: iknew iwas just hiding that ;) 13:08:49 Which might need an extra instruction in the "next" macro/function. 13:08:56 require* 13:09:02 And that's... no good :P 13:09:05 bwb: movin 4th is 1 of my favourite papers 13:09:08 for pentium, no... at least not how i implemented it... 13:09:17 * Robert also like Moving Forth. 13:09:21 mov edx,[ebp] 13:09:27 lea ebp,[ebp+4] 13:09:28 jmp [edx] 13:09:37 yes, moving forth good 13:09:37 aha 13:09:45 instead of what? 13:09:47 How about lodsd / jmp [eax] ?~ 13:09:53 s/~// 13:09:56 ~ 13:10:01 sereph: Bah. 13:10:07 Robert: :D 13:10:10 --- part: sereph left #forth 13:10:16 that would word too (I didn't wanna deal with non-RISCish instructions heh) 13:10:17 Robert: its not ur day ;) 13:10:21 s/word/work/ 13:10:43 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:10:48 onetom: Hehe. 13:10:49 bwb: but how would the dtc case look like? 13:10:58 bwb: !?! 13:11:22 bwb: You just told me this is _on pentium_, and then you don't want to deal with its instruction set? 13:11:33 Robert: well, lodsd... depending on direction flag.. i was lazy at the time and didn't want to make sure it was clear... 13:11:34 in that case the real ip is the 4th ip, isnt it? 13:11:54 onetom: DTC (in my case) would be: 13:12:06 onetom: esi would be the ip 13:12:10 mov edx,[ebp] 13:12:14 lea ebp,[ebp+4] 13:12:15 jmp edx 13:12:25 bwb: "cld" takes one byte, and usually it's cleared. 13:12:31 Robert: i know 13:12:40 bwb: Nobody should return with DF set. 13:12:48 bwb: They should be stoned to death! 13:13:09 plus, lodsd is 2 cycles (i think that varies by architecture though) 13:13:29 and so it'll save a few bytes maybe 13:13:40 bwb: ah, i think ive confused dtc w stc, sorry. thx 4 the explanation 13:14:05 yeah, stc would just be call's (and ret's) 13:14:08 * onetom has 2 refresh these things regualry. it seems so :( 13:14:09 bwb: It only takes 3 bytes :) 13:14:12 (I think) 13:14:48 yeah 13:15:42 Why use "lea ebp,[ebp+4]" and not "add ebp,byte 4"? 13:15:44 isnt stc faster than itc/dtc on pentiums? 13:16:11 --- join: skylan (sjh@Rockcliffe67.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 13:16:16 Robert: i think lea is faster and probably shorter 13:16:16 onetom: Not sure... you can't use the push/pop instructions for the data stack anymore :-/ 13:16:23 Hmm... 13:16:28 hmm.. :) 13:16:32 add is 2 or 3 bytes, iirc. 13:16:34 thats true 13:17:01 DTC with cached TOS is the most used on PC, I think 13:17:57 and what technique does gforth-fast use? 13:19:30 i think they take the same amount of time but add is a byte more 13:19:35 (at least) 13:20:00 onetom: No idea. 13:20:23 bwb: Really? It's 3 bytes and lea is 2? 13:20:58 Robert: add requres a literal in that form 13:21:25 while that +4 is not represented as a separate lit 13:21:33 right 13:21:39 00000000 6683C504 add ebp,byte +0x4 13:21:39 00000004 66678D6D04 lea ebp,[ebp+0x4] 13:21:51 in the machine code, coz it can only b +1 +2 +4 +8? but nothin else 13:21:56 hmm 13:22:06 Ooops 13:22:07 hmm hm :) 13:22:17 That's for 16-bit mode. 13:22:22 heh 13:22:26 32-bit 32-bit 13:22:41 00000000 83C504 add bp,byte +0x4 13:22:41 00000003 8D6D04 lea bp,[di+0x4] 13:22:50 Hrmm.. 13:22:56 Well, think of that as ebp 13:23:12 Don't have the energy to read the ndisasm manual. 13:23:22 btw, which version is faster? the 16 or the 32bit version? 13:23:23 Same sice in 32-bit mode then. 2 bytes, 13:23:28 Erm... 3. 13:23:50 Well, brb 13:23:54 cya 13:24:57 ah 3 13:25:01 anyways about the same 13:36:11 --- nick: mute -> cleverdra 13:43:56 Back... 13:44:00 Hello, cleverdra :) 13:52:33 I was going to say ``Well, duh!'' to the bit about ADD and LEA being the same size, but fortunately, I checked first. They aren't the same thing on Intels. Ick. 13:53:27 nope 13:53:35 doint use lea 13:53:43 why not? 13:53:44 except when doing complex things like 13:53:45 Hm? 13:53:55 lea eax, [ebx+2*ebx] 13:54:01 i.e. eax = 3* ebx 13:55:08 I440r: whats wrong with lea? 13:55:18 Ah, stupid LEA tricks. An A-below-middle-C after my own heart... :-) 13:55:39 read documentation to a86 assembler, it will tell you heh 13:55:51 www.eji.com and download a86 :) 13:55:56 just read the dox :) 13:56:05 --- quit: cleverdra ("Leaving") 13:56:20 umm oj 13:56:21 ok 13:56:55 umm, a86 isn't for 32-bit though..? 13:59:02 no 13:59:18 a386 for 32-bit? 13:59:22 but it explains things that i think all asm coders should know etc 13:59:28 i have a386, i registered 13:59:42 anyway, all it says is that mov is shorter then lea 13:59:52 for something such as lea eax,memloc 13:59:59 i was doing lea ebp,[ebp+4] 14:00:20 thats a valid use for lea 14:00:26 but try 14:00:28 add ebp, byte 4 14:00:36 heh ok 14:10:36 That's what I told him two hours ago, heh. 14:10:39 * Robert rolls his eyes. 14:13:03 lol 15:15:44 --- nick: ian[oci] -> ian[relax] 15:15:44 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:17:44 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 15:17:50 I hate GUIs. 15:24:13 --- quit: Fractal ("BitchX-1.0c19 -- just do it.") 15:25:25 --- join: Fractal (ixhyxx@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth 15:25:44 Yo. 15:29:27 Yo. 15:29:59 How's life? 15:30:43 I just got a PCMCIA ethernet card for my laptop. 15:31:09 So I'm SSHing into my box at home, and IRCing from there. It's kind of neat. 15:31:37 Yeah, I'm quite happy with it. NetBSD had no problems with the install at all. 15:31:54 I just plugged the ethernet card in, and bang. I had /dev/ep0 15:31:57 I'm trying to get this GUI software to do what my boss wants it to do. I am less than amused at this point. I hates GUIs... 15:31:58 Didn't even have to reboot. 15:32:05 fractal which card ? 15:32:14 Kitanin : Agreed. 15:32:21 I440r : 3COM etherlink III 15:32:38 eep! it will be a bitch to get it to work in linux 15:32:46 is it a 3ccfe575bt ? 15:32:51 Specifically 3c589 15:32:58 Nah. 15:33:07 Why? 15:33:10 If the documentation wasn't a cornucopia of maladroit malapropisms, it might not be so bad... 15:33:11 the 589 driver works for teh 575bt too 15:33:35 Yeah, probably similar cards. 15:33:38 it took me weeks to get my 3com pc card nic to work in linux 15:33:51 Really? Harsh... Shoulda tried netBSD. 15:34:02 mine has some BIG differences with the way it acknowledges interrupots 15:34:09 I was really impressed. I can just plug it in while working, and it'll configure itself. 15:34:10 erm with how YOU ack them from the card i mean 15:34:19 its called HOT plug heh 15:34:31 Heh. Plug and Pray? 15:34:33 it even works in windows after a fassion :) 15:34:39 no, plug and play is different 15:34:47 that cant be plugged in HOT 15:35:09 Yeah, I know. Notice the Plug and *Pray* though. 15:35:35 Hm. That's odd.. I thought linux would be years ahead of BSD in driver support. 15:36:39 oh, i got it to work in the end, i just had to have the right driver and configure it properly 15:36:53 but getting it to work with the drivers supplied WITH the linux kernel was a NO GO 15:37:02 had to download the pcmciacs stuff 15:37:05 Ah. Harsh. 15:37:37 does your laptop have a synaptics touchpad ? 15:37:49 Nope. It's an ancient NEC 486/33 15:37:55 dont bother with tpconfig, it does NOT work 15:38:04 I've got one of those clitorisis in the middle for a mouse. 15:38:10 hehe 15:38:14 Heh. Okay. 15:46:52 It's an area of focus thing. NetBSD concentrates on hardware compatibility. Linux concentrates more on making sure each minor version is incompatible with the next. :-) 15:48:47 you cant build compatability in a current version to an upcoming version :P 15:48:52 you said that wrong :) 15:49:28 Kitanin : Heh. No doubt. 15:49:40 I440r: Look at the kernel some day. :-) 15:50:15 lol i would rather not :) 15:50:26 its coded in the words most fucked up language after vb 15:50:55 Um... Aren't we forgetting COBOL? 15:51:20 Actually, they got rid of the QuickBasic. :-D But seriously, the Linux kernel is much more of a moving target than the NetBSD kernel, so device drivers tend to be a hassle to write. 15:51:46 What's really sad is how popular C and it's ilk are today. Superior languages were available years before C was even invented. 15:51:59 LISP, for instance. 15:52:23 ObLink: http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html 15:52:27 :-) 15:53:51 I meant to say ``efficient'' device drivers. You can probably slap together drivers for Linux rather quickly, if you don't feel DMA, etc. are important. 15:55:04 Lol. "The New Jersey Approach". 15:55:26 hehe 16:00:18 "Both early Unix and C compilers had simple structures, are easy to port, required few machine-instructions to run, and provide about 50%-80% of what your want from an operating system and programming language." 16:01:30 --- quit: Shain (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 16:02:10 --- quit: Robert (Connection timed out) 16:03:40 --- join: Shain (~steve@12-236-220-28.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 16:08:32 --- quit: Shain (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 16:09:04 Fractal: Done yet? 16:09:16 Ya. 16:09:26 Interesting read. 16:10:00 Definitely explains the observable computer industry well, doesn't it? :-) 16:10:35 Heh. No doubt. 16:11:30 --- join: Shain (~steve@12-236-220-28.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 16:11:57 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 16:12:03 The entire paper (http://www.ai.mit.edu/docs/articles/good-news/good-news.html) is good reading. That chapter in particular just happens to be quoted everywhere. :-) 16:12:47 Heh. Figures it'd be from MIT. 16:13:01 But yeah, I must say I agree with a lot of it. 16:14:14 Well, at the time, Gabriel worked at Lucid. Do you remember Lucid? Quod Erat Demonstrandum. :-) 16:15:49 Yeah, I think I vaguely remember lucid. Didn't they try to make LISP machines? 16:16:33 Well, they were a LISP-centric development house. 16:17:27 Okay. 16:19:25 Obviously, when UNIX/C became the entrenched standard, they didn't fare well. 16:19:38 they didn't? 16:19:43 oh 16:19:46 they as in lucid 16:19:49 nm 16:20:46 Right... 16:22:19 Yeah. Obviously, all of the individuals involved did well (Jamie better than most), but Lucid was far to right to survive in this world. :-) 16:23:41 Yup. As we now know, worse-is-better. :) 16:26:05 s/far to right/far too right/ 16:26:26 Yeah, I infered that. 16:27:23 :-) 16:28:39 i think the "worse-is-better" analogy is a bit of a cheap shot to the crotch, but whatever :P 16:29:23 btw, about drivers & linux, doesn't it seem odd that you need to compile so many things into the kernel to get that stuff? but i guess it's not a microkernel or exokernel setup... 16:29:59 thin: Well, he does admit in the paper that he made a strawman out of the worse-is-better philosophy... 16:30:32 Aren't maxi-mega-über-kernels grand? :-) 16:30:57 heh 16:31:05 exokernels are nice 16:33:03 I haven't been reading up on them. How do they differ from microkernels? 16:33:40 the kernel doesn't do anything ;P 16:33:42 um... 16:33:48 the kernel does a lot less 16:34:20 Y'know, back in my days, we called that ``MS-DOS''. But then, you young whippersnappers wouldn't remember that, would you? :-) Uphill, both ways, in the snow it was... 16:34:31 heh 16:34:39 i used MS-DOS lots when i was younger 16:34:48 and then i cried when i heard windows 95 booted up into the gui first 16:34:53 thin: Ultimate Frisbee championships don't count. :-) 16:35:28 re 16:35:43 in windows i have a shortcut (ctrl-alt-d) to get into dos 16:35:51 OK. Time to and install oBSD on this laptop, methinks. Later. 16:35:52 and i get into dos a lot 16:35:54 :P 16:36:51 Later, Fractal. 16:43:56 So, does 4color9Forth1 qualify as an exokernel, then? 16:46:22 dunno 16:46:44 seems more monolithic to me, but i don't know the internals of chuck's color forth implementation 16:47:58 thin: I was joking. colorForth is almost completely sans ``operating system'' concepts. :-) 16:49:06 heh, it's still an operating system tho :) 16:50:15 4color8forth 16:50:19 heh 16:50:20 ew 16:50:22 :P 16:51:01 I'd have to say more of an ``interpreter loop''. Yeah, the yellow really looks ugly on white. I found that out when I printed out the 4color9forth1 source. :-) 16:51:37 heh 16:51:58 yeah, maybe get some black paper so you don't have to waste ink :P 16:52:07 but that might not show up well either 16:52:09 darn :P 16:52:13 Fortunately, it's fairly rare in _stored_ code. 16:52:45 Variable accesses, mainly. 16:53:02 looks ugle on black too 16:53:05 ugly 16:53:23 Yeah, but it's more _visible_ on black. :-) 16:53:23 hard to see it on black 16:53:41 hard to see? 16:53:48 Well, a black screen, anyways. :-) 16:54:06 printing stuff on black paper won't really show up very well 16:54:10 hmm, for people that I havn't talked to yet, which do you consider more optimized for Pentium-architectures: ITC, DTC or STC threading methods? 16:54:29 thin: no, I wouldn't imagine it would 16:54:54 bwb: STC is slow, ITC is "clean" but also slow.. ITC is fast.. 16:55:12 bwb: but i might be making that up.. 16:55:19 bwb: I haven't really considered it. 16:55:25 chuck moore uses STC 16:55:30 and STC is fast on forth chips ;) 16:55:35 because forthchips have the return stack 16:55:35 thin: I belive you are heh 16:55:46 thin: since you repeated ITC twice 16:55:48