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07:30:52 <ASau> Good evening!
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11:24:26 <tcn> hi thin
11:24:38 <thin> hey tcn
11:24:55 <tcn> what's new with you?
11:25:31 <thin> hm, finishing "the mythical man month"
11:25:44 <thin> starting "the humane interface" by jef raskin
11:25:59 <bwb> hey tcn
11:26:11 --- mode: ChanServ set +o thin
11:26:19 <tcn> hey
11:26:34 --- topic: set to 'All programmers are optimists -- The mythical man month | x86 Linux Forth coded in asm - http://isforth.clss.net | home of forth - http://www.ultratechnology.com' by thin
11:26:36 <thin> ;P
11:26:38 <tcn> what's the humane interface about?
11:27:12 <thin> it's about designing a better user to computer interface 
11:27:52 <thin> it says that GUIs are fundamentally flawed, and goes on to analyze human cognition and proposes solutions
11:28:20 <tcn> I think I read that one.. it's pretty good
11:28:48 <thin> jef raskin had a hand in the mac gui thingie, but has decided guis suck since then ;P
11:29:08 <thin> jef and others are working on an implementation
11:29:14 <thin> http://humane.sf.net
11:29:24 <thin> currently only runs on macos
11:29:31 <tcn> yeah, there's a big section about the mac, right? and how windows is even worse?
11:29:32 <thin> but mostly written in portable python
11:29:40 <thin> i dunno, i'm not there yet
11:30:03 <thin> from what little i've read, i'm highly interested in implementing it in forth ;P
11:30:10 <thin> it's more than just an interface
11:30:22 <thin> like..
11:30:33 <thin> "files" are considered part of the interface
11:30:38 <thin> and files suck
11:31:00 <thin> people have trouble remembering the name of a file they created 6 months ago, etc
11:31:05 <tcn> are these books all online now?
11:31:20 <thin> the humane interface isn't online i don't think
11:31:26 <thin> i'm reading these books offline
11:32:40 <tcn> always the better choice :)
11:32:45 <thin> some people told me that "the mythical man month" was a good book
11:32:53 <thin> but it's mostly crap, barely learned anything new
11:32:54 <thin> heh
11:33:28 <tcn> what's raskin propose instead of files? they work well for cataloging music, drawings, etc..
11:33:52 <thin> tcn: if you read "the humane interface" how has that changed your outlook?  you don't sound like it's done anything for you heh
11:34:14 <thin> i am not finished the book yet, i don't know the whole story yet
11:34:26 <tcn> it helped me decide that GUI's suck, once & for all
11:34:38 <thin> but so does the console
11:34:54 <thin> jef raskin proposes a different kind of interface, even though it is mostly textual
11:35:08 <thin> but it isn't your standard console
11:36:21 --- mode: thin set -o thin
11:40:17 <tcn> let me read the THE manual..
11:40:57 <thin> integrating chuck moore's concepts, jef raskin's concepts, and advanced os concepts.. :D
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11:51:39 <thin> how's it going i440r?
11:51:54 <I440r> its not :P
11:52:01 <I440r> ive had a lazy week
11:52:13 <I440r> ive got some changes i need to make to isforth tho
11:52:37 <I440r> im gona change structures back to the way they were before and that will mean chaning the windowing code again :)
11:53:29 <thin> why are you changing the structures? 
11:54:15 <I440r> because i made a change to simplify the structures but it turns out that it complecates everything else
11:54:21 <I440r> erm
11:54:27 <I440r> to simplify the windowing code i mean
11:54:41 <thin> heh
11:54:51 <thin> what uses the windowing code?
11:55:07 <thin> i saw you had all the tui coded, but i didn't see anything using it?
11:56:07 <I440r> theres an example in the help dir
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11:58:53 <I440r> i also need to speed up the display updates with the tui code
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12:03:41 <tcn> thin: Raskin's editor sounds pretty lame
12:05:39 <I440r> ?
12:06:10 <tcn> i would rather use vi
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12:06:22 <thin> tcn: it's similar to vi
12:06:32 <thin> haven't finished reading the book, so i cannot make any comments
12:06:56 <I440r> any editor that works ANYTHING like vi is a pile of shit
12:07:25 <thin> and it's not about lameness, it's about an interface that is more realistic in its assumption of human cognition
12:07:55 <I440r> i was thinking of not writing an editor for isforth but i might just do so anyway,
12:08:15 <I440r> ANY OPERATION at all in an editor should be accomplished with a MAXIMUM of TWO keppresses
12:08:27 <I440r> and taht INCLUDES shift, alt, control
12:08:48 <thin> i440r: people who are comfortable with vi work easily 2 or 3x faster than they can in any other editor..
12:09:06 <I440r> thin that doesnt make it a good editor
12:09:06 <thin> i440r: vi isn't emacs.  vi only has 1 or 2 keypresses to do whatever task
12:09:11 <I440r> its fucked in the head
12:09:21 <thin> no it isn't
12:09:25 <I440r> escape colon some-command  <--- DUMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
12:09:30 <I440r> alt key
12:09:30 <I440r> control key
12:09:33 <thin> don't count ESC
12:09:34 <I440r> MAYBE control-alt key
12:09:39 <I440r> thats all you need
12:09:44 <I440r> any editor doing it otherwise is fucked
12:09:45 <thin> command and insert mode are two different things
12:09:54 <thin> therefore you can't count ESC
12:09:54 <I440r> thin err... if its pressed it COUNTS
12:10:03 <I440r> thin EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
12:10:10 <I440r> thatss FUCKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
12:10:11 <tcn> in raskin's editor you hold down shift then whole time, hit the space bar, > to search, then type in what you're searching for, then let go of shift when you find it
12:10:22 <thin> i440r: if you are 2x faster in VI than ANY OTHER EDITOR how the hell can it be fucked?
12:11:02 <I440r> thin imagine how much faster they would be if vi had a SANE interface
12:11:13 <tcn> it's case-insensitive & you type * to match 8, ( to match 9, etc :)
12:11:39 <thin> i440r: SANE is relative, and if you made vi "sane" then it would look like edit.com and be 2x slower!
12:11:52 <thin> tcn: are you sure you didn't misread the sequence?
12:11:59 <thin> SHIFT \ SHIFT /
12:12:08 <tcn> the / comes at the very end
12:12:16 <thin> i doubt the implementation is going to be as good as the book
12:12:21 <thin> i'll implement it my own waya
12:12:27 <thin> er, way
12:12:48 <thin> the book will be useful for helping me to design an interface
12:13:05 <thin> already has been a little useful
12:13:09 <thin> but it's a bit biased i think
12:13:12 <thin> for example, with files
12:13:18 <thin> we will see
12:14:39 <thin> i440r: speed with an interface is also a measure of how less often errors are made, when an interface makes poor assumptions of human's cognitive abilities, the users are more likely to make errors and fuckups
12:15:54 <thin> i440r: have you mastered vi before saying it's a non sane interface? :P
12:16:12 <thin> what would a better editor be like?
12:16:16 <I440r> thin err. i have absolutely NO idea why people who use vi can get used to it, its TOTALLY WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
12:16:20 <I440r> its counter-intuative
12:16:32 <I440r> i TRY do something and end up fucking it up every time
12:16:50 <I440r> you have to LEARN the interface, its NTO immediatly intuative as to how to do ANY SINGLE operationm
12:16:55 <I440r> not even "insert characters"
12:16:58 <thin> an intuitive interface is NOT necessarily a FAST interface!
12:17:21 <I440r> thin speed in editing source files is BAD NEWS
12:17:30 <thin> yes, you have to deal with a large learning curve before you can operate speedily in vi
12:17:36 <I440r> you want it right now???
12:17:38 <I440r> or right!
12:17:44 <thin> ?
12:18:10 <tcn> just to be perfectly clear, i'd rather use Notepad than vi
12:18:11 <I440r> if you type your sources slower, think about them more, go over and over them your code is more likely to work
12:18:18 <I440r> tcn im with you
12:18:18 <thin> vi aims to be usable with minimum of moving the fingers..  ESC key is the farthest you have to reach, and you can hit it without looking at the keyboard
12:18:32 <thin> i'd rather use edit.com than notepad or vi :)
12:18:34 <I440r> thin and that whole fucking premise is FUCKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
12:18:45 <I440r> who the fuck cares how far you have to move your fingers to type something in
12:18:46 <I440r> duh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
12:19:16 <tcn> the dos/windows editors are better than any unix editors that aren't buggy
12:19:33 <I440r> im sorry but VI is the most fucked up editor in existance and its developers should be castrated and not allowed to breed
12:19:38 <thin> heh
12:19:47 <I440r> same goes for emacs
12:19:53 <thin> i was pissed when none of the editors in linux were like edit.com
12:20:06 <I440r> thin edit.com is actually not a bad editor
12:20:14 <thin> one of my favorite abilities of edit.com is to be able to "open files" and get a fucking list of all the files
12:20:18 <I440r> but qedit and multi edit are FAR superior
12:20:20 <tcn> hehe
12:20:39 <thin> i tried E 
12:20:41 <thin> but it sucked
12:20:42 <thin> E.com
12:20:44 <I440r> E ?
12:20:46 <I440r> oh 
12:20:49 <I440r> never heared of it
12:20:50 <tcn> shift+arrows selects, ctrl+arrows moves faster..
12:20:58 <thin> some dos editor
12:21:02 <tcn> that's what we need in unix
12:21:03 <I440r> tcn shift marking is COOL!!!!!!!!!!
12:21:15 <thin> tcn:  but you have to take your fingers off the homerow to get to the arrows :P
12:21:17 <tathi> arrow keys are dumb :-)
12:21:19 <tcn> and I like ctrl-x/c/v
12:21:21 <thin> hjkl to move around are l33t ;PPPP
12:21:32 <thin> i LOVE  ctrl-x/c/v
12:21:34 <thin> and shift marking
12:21:40 <thin> i'm really fast with that shit
12:21:51 <thin> i don't know how to move blocks of text around in vi
12:21:51 <thin> heh
12:22:05 <thin> in joe
12:22:06 <thin> or jed
12:22:08 <thin> you can do
12:22:19 <thin> cut a line
12:22:27 <thin> then paste it somewhere else
12:22:31 <I440r> joe is ok but its got 234786523847 keypreses to do some operations
12:22:32 <thin> kinda limited
12:22:32 <I440r> bleh
12:22:42 <I440r> control k h for help
12:22:48 <I440r> instead of just CONTROL H !!!!!
12:22:49 <tcn> yeah, ^KB .. ^KK  ^KM just to move a block
12:22:59 <I440r> yea, the marking is fuck4ed up
12:23:01 <thin> heh
12:23:06 <thin> it's pretyt fucked in the head
12:23:15 <thin> i wanted to port edit.com once upon a time heh
12:23:26 <tathi> I440r: ^H is backspace
12:23:34 <thin> heh
12:23:41 <thin> backwards compatibility FUCKS YOU OVER!
12:23:45 <I440r> tathi no. BACKSPACE is backspace
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12:24:00 <thin> i440r:  ctrl H is backspace!
12:24:08 <thin> backspace = outputs ctrl-H
12:24:15 <I440r> thin i know
12:24:27 <tathi> well, sometimes it outputs 127 instead
12:24:33 <thin> yeah
12:24:34 <I440r> the whole keyboard interface in unix/linux is totally fucked in the ehad
12:24:38 <thin> i was overgeneralizing :P
12:24:38 <tathi> but that doesn't seem to always be true :(
12:24:41 <tcn2> oh yeah. special keys should be retuned as numbers over 255
12:24:42 <I440r> talk about making a mountain out of a mile hill
12:25:06 <thin> POSIX is a standard that needs to be DROPPED AND KILLED AND FORGOTTEN ABOUT
12:25:13 <thin> and all unix-derivative stuff
12:25:14 <thin> :P
12:25:26 <thin> hah, don't think tcn2 is gonna love me for saying this ;P
12:25:29 --- nick: tcn2 -> tcn
12:25:41 <tcn> think before you speak :)
12:25:44 <tathi> bah! have fun ranting...
12:25:47 <thin> heh
12:25:48 * tathi goes back to coding :)
12:25:52 <thin> tathi: stay around :P
12:25:55 <thin> all good coders rant ;P
12:26:01 <tcn> we're not gonna rant about unix
12:26:09 <thin> yeah
12:26:36 <I440r> i think ALL standards should be dropped
12:26:38 <I440r> ALL OF THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
12:26:51 <thin> well i look at intel, and it's pretty fucked in the head because of backwards compatibility, and i look at unix, and it's similarly fucked in the head..  and the moral of the story is..  backwards compatibility is FUCKED so don't DO IT!
12:26:53 <tcn> even ASCII?
12:27:06 <I440r> ALL of them :P
12:27:27 <tcn> look at Apple, they change all their protocols and connectors every couple years!
12:28:01 <I440r> they didnt get it right yet :P
12:28:03 <tcn> a 5-year old mac can't read a 10-year old mac disk!
12:28:06 <I440r> you think microsoft did ?
12:28:36 <I440r> you format a floppy in windows and it leaves one or 2 sectors on ever track UNFORMATTED!!!
12:28:54 <I440r> this way if theres an error on a track it can reformat the track so the error is inside teh unformatted space
12:29:00 <I440r> making it LOOK like you have a good disk
12:29:06 <I440r> at the price of some storage space
12:29:09 <I440r> FUCKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
12:29:21 <I440r> so instead of losing a little if you have an error on the disk you ALWAYS lose alot
12:29:22 <tcn> heh.. so when it fails (which is imminent) you have no warning!
12:29:50 <thin> argument FOR backwards compatibility:  apple doesn't strive for backwards compatibility and therefore it does not hold the majority of the market ??
12:29:55 <tcn> i don't trust a disk if it has a single bad sector
12:30:13 <I440r> tcn me either
12:30:19 <thin> bah, i do
12:30:25 <tcn> they lost the market because they screwed their customers!
12:30:26 <I440r> which is why i use a disk formatter in dos that formats teh WHOLE disk
12:30:43 <thin> scandisk marks the bad sectors and those don't get used :P
12:30:48 <I440r> and M$ isnt screwing theirs ?
12:30:52 <tcn> now microsoft is really screwing people and they're losing too
12:31:15 <thin> i've had a disk that was half bad sectors..  and DIR only displays like 700 kilobytes of space on it available
12:31:21 <thin> and i stored stuff on it
12:31:25 <tathi> most people who use Macs seem to _like_ Apple. I've never met _anyone_ who liked Microsoft...
12:31:50 <I440r> tathi i never thought about that
12:31:58 <I440r> tho i do know ONE person who didnt like his mac
12:32:10 <thin> but that's a mac
12:32:14 <I440r> so he shipped it back and baught a more powerful x86 machine for 1/4 the price
12:32:16 <thin> apple doesn't make macs anymore ;P
12:32:50 <tcn> didn't apple start that obscene practice of giving computers to school?
12:33:08 <tathi> yeah, I do know a few people who have tried macs and then switched over...
12:33:35 <thin> TI also gives calculators to schools, and that brainwashes all the poor kids and they miss out on the AMAZING RPN HP CALCULATORS!
12:33:36 <tcn> One of the first computers I used was a mac, and I hated it
12:34:00 <thin> bah, you just need to install linux on apple computers
12:34:01 <tcn> yes, HP calculators are a good use of forth (or something like forth)
12:34:03 <thin> and then it's ALL good
12:34:14 <thin> tcn: nope, HP calcs don't have forth
12:34:17 <thin> RPL
12:34:21 <thin> reverse polish lisp
12:34:37 <tcn> forth w/ types
12:34:45 <thin> RPN is a superior way to work with calculators
12:35:04 <thin> i'm like 2-3 times faster working my calculator than some other bloke working his non-rpn calc
12:35:06 <I440r> but it makes YOU have to think!!!!!!!!111
12:35:13 <thin> no it doesnt!
12:35:18 <I440r> people dont like having to think, thats why they prefer c to forth
12:35:22 <thin> heh
12:35:25 <thin> yeah i suppose
12:35:44 <thin> i was comfortable with my rpn calc within a few hours
12:35:55 <tcn> either way you need to solve equations on paper before you get to C or Forth
12:35:58 <I440r> they would rather do (((1+2) * 3) / 4) ** 5 )
12:35:58 <thin> sadly, other people didn't like it :/
12:36:20 <I440r> ir is ^ to the power of in c
12:36:27 <I440r> ** is a pointer to an array of pointers
12:36:30 <I440r> c is so fucked
12:36:46 <tcn> ** is a pointer to a pointer
12:37:00 <I440r> tcn yea or to an array thereof
12:37:15 <I440r> int *argc, **argv
12:37:25 <thin> int * a;
12:37:40 <thin> is that valid?  or is it supposed to be int *a;
12:37:48 <I440r> thats valid
12:37:51 <I440r> you can do
12:37:52 <I440r> int
12:37:53 <I440r> *
12:37:53 <I440r> a
12:37:55 <I440r> ;
12:38:00 <thin> heh
12:38:29 <tcn> i like the old style of C
12:38:39 <I440r> k&r ?
12:38:41 <thin> if everyone was taught forth first, instead of pascal or C, etc..  
12:38:42 * I440r pukes
12:38:51 <tcn> modern style:  void *main(int argc, char **argv) { ..
12:38:53 <thin> C++ OWNS!
12:39:08 <thin> i love >> and << :D
12:39:09 <tcn> old style:    main(argc, argv) int argc, **argv; {...
12:39:30 <thin> yeah
12:39:36 <thin> i don't get the diff between
12:39:37 <thin> void main
12:39:39 <thin> and main
12:39:41 <thin> or int main
12:39:43 <I440r> tcn the old style seperates out the types from the declarations of the parameters
12:39:45 <I440r> bad
12:40:03 <tcn> more readable
12:40:03 <I440r> you dont immediatly see from  main (argc, argv) what the parameters are
12:40:09 <I440r> LESS readable
12:40:30 * tathi agrees with I440r there...
12:40:37 <tcn> then how about  this way:
12:40:39 <tcn> main(argc, argv)
12:40:47 <tcn> int argc, **argv; {
12:41:04 <I440r> err putting the { on the end of a like is bad
12:41:15 <I440r> if ( a = b ) {
12:41:20 <I440r>  you have a fucked up if statement 
12:41:21 <tcn> i do it anyway
12:41:22 <I440r> }
12:41:24 <thin> if you don't like Forth, why pick C either?  C is too CLICHE..  why not some other programming language :P
12:41:45 <I440r> there is very little that i like about c
12:41:57 <I440r> theres NOTHING i dont like about forth
12:42:07 <tcn> they're both close to the metal
12:42:08 <I440r> but that statement assumes that ANS is NOT forth
12:42:23 <I440r> tcn err not realy
12:42:24 <tcn> it isn't :)
12:42:33 <thin> lots of C/C++ programmers that i know always seem to chose C/C++ because its a "popular" language or because many people use it or some such bullshit
12:42:43 <I440r> plus, c is only so HIGH a level langyuage
12:42:52 <I440r> forth can go as high level as you want it to
12:43:19 <thin> tcn: yeah, don't focus too much on the low-level stuff in forth or you'll get depresed ;P
12:43:27 <tcn> i started w/ Basic, moved up to pascal, found some pain-in-the-ass stuff in pascal after awhile, someone gave me a C compiler and it wasn't such a pain in the ass!
12:43:55 <thin> have you forgotten your learning curve?
12:44:03 <thin> instead of learning basic, pascal, and C
12:44:07 <thin> why not just forth? :P
12:44:16 <thin> it's not well supported right now
12:44:18 <I440r> no
12:44:20 <thin> but if it was
12:44:26 <tcn> i could have learned forth, pascal, and C
12:44:32 <I440r> every coder should be required to code in nothing but pure assembler for the first 10 years
12:44:38 <I440r> thats their apprenticeship
12:44:46 <thin> heh
12:44:47 <I440r> after that they can go on to learn forth if they want to
12:44:57 <tcn> when I was learning BASIC, F-PC and F83 were the shit :)  and I would have like to have them.
12:44:58 <thin> i440r:  what if the assembly language is MachineForth? :P
12:45:10 <thin> or pygmy
12:45:16 <thin> F-PC kinda sucks
12:45:19 <thin> heh
12:45:38 <I440r> fpc is a good beginners forth
12:45:40 <tcn> if i started with asm I would have written a compiler or something pretty quick :)
12:45:48 <thin> pygmy is an even better beginners forth
12:45:55 <thin> i440r: bullshit!
12:46:01 <thin> f-pc is fucking confusing heh
12:46:06 <thin> and the help system is on CRACK
12:46:11 <thin> i fucking hate f-pc
12:46:18 <thin> and the code is horrible
12:46:35 <thin> SEE <whatever word>  -> gibberish that is 10 pages long
12:47:08 <thin> heh
12:47:18 <thin> i'm in rant mode, i440r started it ;P
12:47:27 <I440r> thin the way fpc works is very very confusing
12:47:28 <thin> tcn:  where did you fail with forth?
12:47:33 <I440r> but its also very clever
12:47:49 <thin> tcn:  where did forth fail for you, and where did you fail with forth? ;P
12:47:57 <I440r> if you stop trying to understand how each word in forth works and just concentrate on how to use each word f-pc is VERY VERY GOOD!
12:48:08 <thin> tcn:  what does forth need to make you happy?
12:48:34 <tcn> thin: it was easy to write forth compilers but tough to write anything in forth
12:50:16 <I440r> tcn no its not tough to write things in forth
12:50:34 <I440r> its a little difficult with isforth because i dont have an assembler or debugger yet
12:51:36 <tcn> i'm still using gcc and i haven't got a clue how to do inline asm but i get by just fine
12:52:15 <I440r> tcn isforth is very capable too without asm, but there are times when i realy would prefer the abilityto CODE a given word here and there
12:52:16 <tcn> I wrote one NASM routine to do what */ does in forth
12:53:28 <tcn> fucking GCC will just ditch the high 32 bits and give you a divide-by-zero or rounding error
12:53:38 <tcn> or convert to floating point
12:55:49 <thin> the only assembly language that we should deal with is..
12:55:53 <thin> MachineForth
12:56:19 <I440r> thin no
12:56:32 <I440r> not all processors work with machineforth, nor will it ever be so
12:57:00 <I440r> maybe after chuck moore dies all the vultures will come down from the trees and suck up all his good work and call it their own
12:57:21 <I440r> like when a realy good "poor starving artist" dies his paintings suddenly fetch 40 million at auction
12:59:27 <tcn> :)
13:01:07 <thin> i440r: what do you mean?  can't all the 27 primitives of MachineForth be implemented in all processors? 
13:02:25 <tcn> i think forth is unsuitable for a lot of 8-bit micros
13:02:29 <I440r> thin thats not the same as having those processors microcoded in machine forth
13:02:45 <thin> eh??
13:02:46 <I440r> tcn ive never seen any 8 bits that wernt suited to forth
13:02:48 <thin> you misunderstand me
13:02:55 <thin> i'm not talking about microcoding
13:03:09 <tcn> they can't have enough registers for SP, RP, and A
13:03:13 <I440r> thats what machineforth is all about, micro-coding the processors in forth
13:03:19 <I440r> so the processors asm IS forth
13:03:27 <thin> no
13:03:32 <thin> i'm just talking about forthchips
13:03:35 <thin> not fucking other processors
13:03:47 <thin> if you want to code machineforth on another processor
13:03:58 <thin> just code a MachineForth VIRTUAL MACHINE
13:04:18 <thin> i disagree with your terminology "microcoding"
13:04:25 <thin> i prefer "virtual machine"
13:04:28 <thin> or "machineforth layer"
13:04:40 <thin> because it's going to be outside of the processor
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13:12:29 <thin> i440r: how many words in isforth are coded in asm ?
13:13:00 <I440r> err lots in the kernel
13:13:04 <I440r> none in the extensions
13:13:10 <I440r> alot of that will change 
13:13:35 <thin> i think your WORDS command is kinda sucky because it just fills up the screen with too many words..  it'd be nicer to have it categorized by vocabulary, etc.. and it'd be nice if all the words of a vocabulary fit into one block!
13:14:06 <I440r> thin statoff helps
13:14:08 <thin> (fit into the screen without any scrolling)
13:14:12 <I440r> theres a bug in the console scroll code
13:14:19 <thin> screw scrolling
13:14:21 <I440r> ive been meaning to complain about that
13:14:21 <thin> lamers scrol
13:14:23 <thin> :P
13:14:44 <I440r> thin also, words only shows IN CONTEXT vocabularies
13:14:48 <I440r> only forth words
13:14:54 <I440r> will only show words from root and forth
13:15:14 <thin> there should be a maximum number of words in a vocabulary
13:15:19 <thin> like 100 :P
13:15:30 <thin> or how many fit into one screen
13:19:42 <I440r> thin screen size is dynamic
13:20:00 <I440r> when i have signals in isforth ill be able to change console size any time someone resizes a window
13:21:52 <thin> 80 * 25 = 2000..  average size of word including space roughly 8.. 250 words
13:21:58 <thin> limit vocabularies to 250 words
13:22:02 <thin> and live happily ever after
13:22:26 <thin> limit it to less actually
13:22:29 <thin> 200 would be better
13:23:50 <I440r> arbitary restrictions are bad
13:24:17 <thin> >:D
13:24:18 <thin> personally
13:24:20 <thin> i have a different idea
13:24:24 <thin> it goes like this:
13:24:47 <thin> have a minimal core set vocabulary..  like the 27 machineforth primitives (or a few more)
13:24:54 <thin> and then have other vocabularies
13:24:58 <thin> extension vocbalaries
13:25:02 <thin> graphics vocabularies
13:25:02 <thin> etc
13:25:13 <thin> vocabularies ontop of vocabularies
13:25:23 <thin> so the user can learn the core vocabulary
13:25:27 <thin> easily
13:25:34 <thin> and then go on and learn what he needs
13:25:38 <thin> perhaps graphics vocabulary
13:25:44 <thin> which would be similar to postscript
13:26:02 <thin> and the user could quickly code up a some graphics or whatever
13:26:32 <thin> postscript IS a graphics vocabulary PLUS some math and the CORE 27 primitives
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13:37:55 <thin> heh
13:37:56 <I440r> oopts
13:37:57 <thin> wb i440r
13:38:02 <I440r> mental note - be more careful with that mouse :)
13:38:06 <tcn> haha
13:38:18 <thin> i440r: i don't have irc maximized
13:38:19 <tcn> hey, try popasm... popasm.sf.net
13:38:27 <thin> it's a little box in the middle of the desktop
13:38:34 <I440r> i dont like ANY windows maximized
13:38:35 <thin> i never accidentally hit the x
13:38:42 <I440r> popasm ?
13:41:03 <tcn> i guess they're trying to be everything to everyone
13:41:32 <I440r> booker t and the mg's - green onions!
13:41:36 <I440r> only onions i like :)
13:41:38 <I440r> yukk
13:41:43 <I440r> great music tho heh
13:42:53 <thin> mov eax, OFFSET FOO
13:42:59 <thin> that would be better than
13:43:05 <thin> mov eax, [[ FOO ]]
13:43:08 <thin> wouldn't it?
13:43:26 <tcn> yeah
13:43:28 <I440r> thin no
13:43:36 <I440r> mov ax, [ foo ]
13:43:39 <I440r> much better heh
13:43:44 <I440r> cept i have to redefine [ and ]
13:43:52 <tcn> this guy's got some good points about NASM
13:43:53 <I440r> for me " mov reg, number"
13:43:57 <I440r> is an immediate mov
13:44:15 <I440r> a86 is the best assembler ever written
13:44:18 <I440r> EVER
13:44:25 <I440r> for ANY processor/controller
13:44:53 <thin> why would you have to redefine [ ] ??????????   is [ ] part of the assembler vocabulary?????
13:45:02 <thin> vocabularies! sexy!
13:45:04 <I440r> thin no
13:45:11 <I440r> [ and ] have special meaning in forth
13:45:16 <I440r> they are teh state switches
13:45:22 <I440r> [ and ] in the assembler would be different
13:45:33 <tcn> ugh. popasm is C++
13:45:40 <I440r> and it gets more complex when you take [ address + eax + 2* ebx ]
13:45:53 <I440r> i still haveent thunked of a decent syntax for that
13:46:07 <I440r> maybe mov eax, [ address ] [eax] +2* [ebx]
13:46:34 <I440r> the word ] would store the address to some variable
13:46:39 <I440r> so you could do 
13:46:54 <I440r>  mov eax, [ ' myvar >body ] 
13:47:02 <thin> tcn: of course it is.  C++ is superior
13:50:51 <I440r>  Note I'm not saying NASM is wrong. I'm just saying that there seems to be no good reason for such change in the syntax;
13:50:54 <I440r> he is wrong there
13:50:59 <I440r> there is a VERY good reason
13:51:09 <I440r> it removes CRUFTY visual clutter from your sources
13:51:13 <I440r> makes them more consise
13:51:23 <I440r> move eax, OFFSET foo is verbose
13:51:29 <I440r> move ax,[foo] is consise
13:51:32 <I440r> er eax even
13:51:59 <tcn> you could drop the 'e' from register names since you're not using 16 bit
13:52:40 <I440r> this guy likes tasm
13:52:41 <I440r> ugh
13:52:48 <I440r> only the crappiest of them all
13:52:53 <I440r> even worse tham masm !!!!!!!!
13:53:06 <thin> heh, i thought masm was worse
13:53:10 <I440r> and he totally skips over a86 as an example
13:53:22 <I440r> tasm was designed to be a masm work-alike
13:53:26 <tcn> it'll probably end up being overcomplicated just like nasm
13:53:44 <I440r> nasm is actually not that complex if you stear clear of macros
13:53:48 <I440r> their macros are fucked
13:53:57 <tcn> heh
13:53:58 <I440r> and their "critical expression" bullshit 
13:54:16 <I440r> teh assembler would be far better if it was SINGLE PASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
13:56:54 <tcn> well i gotta go make some phone calls
13:56:56 <tcn> bye
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16:04:44 <Speuler> g'day
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16:40:58 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
16:41:17 <I440r> bw!
16:41:25 <I440r> wb ian :P
16:41:26 <TheBlueWizard> hiya I440r!
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16:41:48 <Herkamire> I like my computer
16:41:56 <I440r> lol
16:41:59 <I440r> thats good :)
16:42:01 <Herkamire> (Windoze makes me appreciate it more
16:42:13 <I440r> lol
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16:43:22 <tst> hoi speuler
16:43:22 <thin> hi tst :)
16:43:26 <I440r> tst is a test of a bot ?
16:43:26 <tst> hm
16:43:31 --- nick: tst -> MrBean
16:43:32 <I440r> or a new forth coder ??? :)
16:43:35 <MrBean> better
16:43:44 <I440r> heh
16:43:46 <MrBean> neither :)
16:43:53 <MrBean> neick wrong 
16:43:56 <MrBean> nick
16:44:02 <I440r> heh
16:44:06 <Speuler> hi mr laserbean
16:44:18 <MrBean> hai
16:44:39 <MrBean> ex-forth coder btw, 440
16:44:51 <I440r> X ???????????
16:44:55 <I440r> lol
16:44:57 <MrBean> yep
16:45:00 <I440r> you should become a forth coder again
16:45:01 <TheBlueWizard> what does tst do?
16:45:26 <MrBean> online machinecode (PIC) and hardware no
16:45:29 <MrBean> now
16:45:41 <Speuler> no more SA110 ?
16:45:49 <MrBean> nope
16:45:54 <MrBean> PXA250 now :)
16:45:55 <Speuler> finished ?
16:45:57 <I440r> mrbean you do embedded control in asm ?
16:46:02 <MrBean> jep
16:46:09 <I440r> me 2 :)
16:46:16 <MrBean> when it must be lean and/or fast
16:46:16 <I440r> cept im unemployed :(
16:46:41 <MrBean> otherwise we have C-programmers for that ;)
16:46:51 <I440r> i code c too but i HATE c
16:47:08 <TheBlueWizard> I440r: you got laid off recently?
16:47:10 <I440r> but when some other guy is PAYING me i can code it quite well :)
16:47:28 <MrBean> i am not a programmer, just when it needs to be machinecode my job will be
16:47:30 <I440r> tbw the contract i was working on at home MIGHT extend to going to VA - dont know yet
16:48:02 <thin> mrbean: you aren't a programmer?
16:48:02 <I440r> i code asm on just about any microprocessor/microcontroller you can think of
16:48:19 <I440r> if you can think of one ive never coded for ill be coding asm on it within an hour
16:48:30 <MrBean> nope, hardware designer
16:48:31 <thin> mup21
16:49:27 <MrBean> lol, the MMU of an PXA250 will take you more than an hour
16:50:40 <I440r> why ?
16:50:51 <I440r> i learned 6502 in 2 weeks WITHOUT a computer :)
16:50:56 <I440r> first coding i ever learned :)
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16:51:14 <I440r> cant be more complex than x86 heh
16:51:15 <MrBean> damn intel complex illogical bad documented
16:51:22 <I440r> ok its intel...
16:52:16 <I440r> just need an instruction ref and sfr ref if it has sfr's
16:52:57 <Speuler> eh ?
16:53:14 <I440r> sfr = special function registers
16:54:02 <TheBlueWizard> I440r: VA?  Northern VA?
16:54:24 <I440r> erm fairfax i think
16:56:32 <TheBlueWizard> fairfax is definitely in Northern VA...and is fairly close to my home! (about 20 miles away)
16:57:44 <I440r> ya ?
16:57:52 <I440r> thunked you were in cananda :)
16:59:06 <TheBlueWizard> eh? eh? eh? whuh da yuh theenk I'm Canuck, eh? :)
16:59:10 <I440r> heh
16:59:11 * MrBean Tries to wake up Speuler...
16:59:36 <I440r> mrbean how come u dont code forth now ?
17:00:06 * TheBlueWizard hopes this accent is "proper Canadian"
17:00:17 <I440r> heh
17:00:46 <thin> i dunno, only if it's east canadian
17:00:54 <thin> er
17:01:05 <thin> not realy
17:02:19 <MrBean> sorry, busy.. later
17:03:18 <TheBlueWizard> heh
17:03:27 <I440r> l8r!
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17:05:36 <TheBlueWizard> bye I440r
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17:06:54 <I440r> im not going anywhere hehe
17:07:01 <TheBlueWizard> hiya proteus
17:07:05 <I440r> i thunke4d mrbean was heh
17:07:24 <TheBlueWizard> ah..so you're l8r-ing MrBean away
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17:08:09 * TheBlueWizard pretends to /kick MrBean
17:08:43 <Speuler> tbw i'm distracting mrbean rite now
17:09:17 <Speuler> i doubt he's paying attention at the moment
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18:24:22 <TheBlueWizard> hiya I440r again
18:27:32 <I440r> heh modem died on me :)
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18:45:06 <kawfee> OrngeTide: found you!
18:45:20 <OrngeTide> hi:)
18:45:20 <kawfee> OrngeTide: TAG! You're it!
18:45:24 * OrngeTide yelps
18:45:33 <kawfee> I didn't know you were over here
18:45:54 <TheBlueWizard> hiya kawfee
18:46:01 <kawfee> hello
18:46:03 <OrngeTide> sure.
18:46:35 <kawfee> ok
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19:25:54 <TheBlueWizard> hiya I440r again
19:31:52 <I440r> :)
19:31:53 <I440r> brb
19:34:37 <I440r> ice cream :)
19:34:41 <I440r> chocolate :)
19:34:57 <TheBlueWizard> yum yum yum drool yum!
19:35:48 <I440r> yea thats what my dog is doing too
19:35:52 <I440r> cept chocolate is bad for dogs
19:38:21 <TheBlueWizard> I saw some "chocolate" products for dogs (I know chocolate is toxic to dogs)
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21:07:00 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye all
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