00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.09.02
00:51:52 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth
02:32:17 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth
02:35:05 --- quit: Serg_penguin (Client Quit)
03:13:50 --- join: galexand (galexand@23-pool9.ras10.ncral.tii-dial.net) joined #forth
03:46:24 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth
03:47:06 --- quit: Serg_penguin (Client Quit)
04:32:03 --- join: Speuler (~l@pD9502539.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
04:32:11 <Speuler> 'day
04:36:54 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth
04:52:28 --- part: Serg_penguin left #forth
05:07:27 --- join: sbk_ (~kbs@dsl-65-184-98-221.telocity.com) joined #forth
05:30:23 --- quit: sbk_ ("Leaving")
05:49:51 --- quit: galexand (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
05:51:42 --- part: Speuler left #forth
06:57:02 --- join: ASau (ASau@158.250.48.197) joined #forth
06:57:27 <ASau> Good evening!
09:06:07 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust50.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth
09:37:05 <thin> hey i440r!
09:38:26 * I440r hides
09:38:39 <thin> isforth rox0rs! isforth is leet :P
09:38:44 <thin> hah!
09:38:48 <thin> you hided for that!
09:38:57 * I440r knows ;)
09:39:02 <I440r> well
09:39:02 <I440r> it isnt yet
09:39:07 <I440r> but it will be eventually
09:49:58 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ip-216-25-202-143.vienna.va.fcc.net) joined #forth
09:50:02 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
09:50:23 <thin> hiya
09:50:42 <thin> i440r: don't make it too big and bloated tho ;P
09:51:19 <TheBlueWizard> hiya thin
09:51:31 <I440r> it wont be
09:51:37 <TheBlueWizard> thin: you can count on I440r not making it bloated :)
09:51:39 <I440r> it will however have alot of optionable shit
09:52:03 <I440r> you COULD comment out the text windowing code and compile a new one and it will be smaller
09:52:13 <I440r> alot of whats in isforth.f is OPTIONAL
09:53:29 <TheBlueWizard> thin: an intelligent compiler could determine what is being used, what is being depended on, and what is not being used and can generate the smallest executable possible
09:53:57 <thin> i440r: why is the tui stuff in it?
09:55:03 <I440r> because :P
09:56:13 <TheBlueWizard> some might want to use TUI....for example, coding up an IRC app :)
09:56:35 <I440r> :)
09:57:03 <TheBlueWizard> saves some wheel reinventing, basically...there are a lot which TUI is suitable for
09:57:35 <I440r> and it can be commented out
09:58:05 <I440r> corse, all this DOES need documenting
09:58:26 <thin> no no no
09:58:27 <thin> i mean
09:58:33 <thin> if someone wants to use the tui
09:58:36 <thin> they could just load tui.f
09:58:39 <thin> or whatever
09:58:45 <thin> it doesn't have to be inside isforth
10:01:29 <TheBlueWizard> ah...you see TUI as a library add-on, eh?
10:02:32 <thin> sure
10:02:46 <thin> it's not like it takes that long to compile it again ;P
10:02:47 <I440r> it is
10:02:55 <thin> .5 seconds or whatever :P
10:03:16 <I440r> that long ??????
10:03:24 <I440r> dann i need to speed up the compile some
10:03:24 <thin> nahh
10:03:33 <thin> i made up the number
10:03:34 <thin> heh
10:03:41 <I440r> *snicker*
10:03:50 <thin> yeah you were being sarcastic i know
10:03:56 <I440r> futhin you in linux rite now ?
10:04:50 <thin> nope
10:05:47 <thin> i have a shell account
10:06:10 <I440r> install linux at home
10:06:18 <I440r> debian
10:06:27 <I440r> stop being a lamer in windows all the time:P
10:06:50 <thin> nah, i wouldn't install debian :P
10:06:53 <thin> slackware baby!
10:06:58 <TheBlueWizard> heh...thin: do you have only one machine?
10:07:03 <thin> of course
10:07:08 <thin> p133mhz with 32 megs of ram!
10:07:12 <I440r> whussy
10:07:26 <I440r> lol i have three heh
10:08:08 <I440r> server is on a 700 mhz athlon with 256 megs of ram, this is a 900 mhz athlon with 256 megs of ram, laptop is an k6-3 with 128 megs of ram :)
10:08:55 <TheBlueWizard> the best I have at home is a P166 with 32 meg ram
10:09:17 <TheBlueWizard> <-- a born again wuss :)
10:09:21 <I440r> tbw check out www.tigerdirect.com for ram prices
10:09:23 <TheBlueWizard> lol
10:09:50 <TheBlueWizard> the boxes are close to being maxed out already
10:10:21 <TheBlueWizard> besides, I don't have extra space for putting new machines here...my apt is waaay crammed
10:11:53 <I440r> throw out bed :)
10:12:12 <TheBlueWizard> LMAO!
10:12:42 <ASau> thin: Slack rules! ;)
10:13:01 * TheBlueWizard tosses his beat-up bed out of the windows...watches it falling down 16 stories down...and hit an old woman just coming into the lobby!
10:13:14 <ASau> thin: Am5x86 16MB ;)
10:14:15 <I440r> lol
10:14:50 <ASau> I440r: ?
10:15:28 <I440r> lol at tbw for throwing his bed out the window :P
10:15:57 <ASau> Are you crashing numbers? On your laptop w/K6-3@128MB...
10:16:12 <thin> crunching
10:16:21 <I440r> crashing ?
10:16:27 <ASau> Are you crushing numbers? On your laptop w/K6-3@128MB...
10:16:46 <I440r> oh 
10:16:46 <I440r> 99% if isforth development happens on that laptop
10:17:10 <I440r> not rite now
10:17:15 <I440r> im on the 900mhz athlon 
10:17:21 <I440r> in debian
10:17:27 <I440r> but i mite have to boot to windows so i can read mail
10:17:34 <I440r> erm
10:17:34 <I440r> read news i mean
10:17:42 <I440r> there arent any useable news clients in linux
10:17:48 <I440r> AT ALL
10:17:56 <thin> what have you tried?
10:18:01 <ASau> Such a fast machines are used for NC-tasks by us...
10:18:01 <thin> and what kind do you want?
10:18:10 <thin> do you want some fluffy graphics news reader?
10:18:19 <thin> there is tons of news readers for the console
10:18:21 <thin> rn
10:18:22 <thin> trn
10:18:24 <thin> tn
10:18:24 <thin> blah
10:19:36 <ASau> Probably, there're some X news readers...
10:19:57 <ASau> GNUS, maybe...
10:22:09 <I440r> brb
10:23:00 <ASau> I don't know, really.
10:23:06 <thin> i440r: you don't need some fancy graphical news reader!  :P
10:24:07 <ASau> thin: Agreed.
10:56:02 <I440r> thin no i dont
10:56:17 <I440r> what i need is one that will allow me to NOT THREAD news items
10:56:28 <I440r> or have an interfeace as fucked up as vi
10:56:42 <I440r> escape : shif tbacksapace backspace F10 enter
10:56:50 <I440r> now your reading a news
10:56:50 <I440r> bleh balh 
10:56:50 <I440r> fuck that
10:57:42 <I440r> sometimes linux developers have their head planted firmly up their own ass
11:11:26 <ASau> This seems to be true also.
11:11:52 <ASau> I've looked at FSF history.
11:12:10 <ASau> RMS tryed to get all stuff worked on C.
11:12:52 <ASau> Now there is an awful mixture of C + C++ + perl + m4 + sh + autoconf + ...
11:13:26 <ASau> To recompile something means to install much of the stuff that is never needed.
11:14:08 <ASau> Such a fat!
11:14:10 <TheBlueWizard> OTOH, there is much freedom to pick and choose! :)
11:14:47 <ASau> I see only such stuff.
11:15:08 <ASau> If I want to rebuild one package I need to install:
11:15:12 <ASau> perl5
11:15:20 <ASau> python
11:15:28 <ASau> + some other packages
11:16:12 <ASau> I've never got more man-reading than the goal of that packages.
11:16:18 <TheBlueWizard> if app is written in isforth and uses x and y and z libraries, you'd complain that you have to use x and z...so much fat!
11:16:37 <ASau> I mean not isforth.
11:17:04 <ASau> I mean much of GNUish stuff being created now.
11:18:14 <ASau> It'd be better to write a good documentation for that.
11:18:23 <ASau> IMO
11:19:03 <TheBlueWizard> yeah...docs are really needed for some stuff...that's one of the sadder parts of the state of the affair
11:19:32 <TheBlueWizard> but I think things are generally improving overall though
11:19:55 <ASau> IMO docs volume ought to be no less 3 times more than code.
11:21:05 <ASau> My work is closely connected with sci.research.
11:21:22 <TheBlueWizard> I myself don't mind C, likes Python (in fact I use it a lot since I don't have to worry about memory mgmt stuff and it is often easily readable, plus a good wealth of facilities)...hates C++ and Perl...had used m4 on a few occasions (powerful, but can be abtruse at times)
11:21:33 <ASau> In 1st semester I've learned that
11:21:51 <ASau> scientist is to collect much literature
11:22:00 <ASau> what is done
11:22:08 <ASau> what is not done
11:22:22 <ASau> if smth is to be done
11:22:31 <ASau> why it is to be done
11:23:04 <ASau> The most difficult part is to explain
11:23:12 <ASau> what you're doing
11:23:24 <TheBlueWizard> that's called research...lots of work
11:23:26 <ASau> and what you're doing this for
11:23:43 <ASau> I see many examples
11:23:55 <ASau> of a different approach.
11:25:10 <ASau> Thin asked me of my source.
11:25:24 <ASau> I don't want to rise enthropy.
11:25:51 <ASau> There're much chaos w/o mine.
11:26:25 <ASau> That's why I don't want to publish anything.
11:26:31 <TheBlueWizard> are you saying you're trying to rescue the universe from chaos?  O_o
11:26:53 <ASau> Esp. because programming is not my profession.
11:27:22 <ASau> No, I don't say this.
11:28:11 <ASau> Simply I don't want to enlarge the number of bad things released.
11:29:04 <TheBlueWizard> ah...ok
11:29:16 <TheBlueWizard> well, I must go...bye all
11:29:29 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth
11:29:30 <ASau> ;) V.I.Vernadskij being postgraduate student was made by his advisor to show his draft work.
11:31:20 <ASau> After V.I. shew his drafts he was made to publish a M.Sci. dissertation.
11:31:30 <ASau> Though the work was not finished.
11:35:30 <ASau> I haven't heard of anyone made thats quality work.
11:35:51 <ASau> I see bugs in software.
11:36:27 <ASau> Or maybe these are features?.. ;)
11:43:00 <thin> i440r: you there
12:00:03 <ASau> Good night! Bye!
12:00:09 --- quit: ASau ()
13:22:29 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc4-login35.megatrondata.com) joined #forth
13:36:35 <thin> anybody know how many transistors does f21 have?
13:36:39 <thin> or mup21
13:36:41 <thin> or whatever
13:45:00 <tcn> maybe 7000-20000
13:45:14 <tcn> check jeff fox's site
13:49:10 <Robert> Hey all.
13:49:27 <Robert> I'm coding forth on a board with 8 switches and 8 LEDs.
13:49:32 <Robert> (As only I/O :)
13:49:49 <Robert> Using a base 4 number system.
13:50:04 <thin> robert:  http://www.ultratechnology.com/f21.html   has links to data about implementation of f21
13:50:12 <thin> like how it handles lit
13:50:14 <thin> and stuff
13:51:06 <tcn> what kinda cpu, robert?
13:51:19 <Robert> tcn: AVR... 90S8515
13:55:03 <tcn> oh.. 8-bit mcu?
13:55:29 <Robert> Yup.
13:56:14 <thin> Pentium II  7,500,000 transistors .35 microns 300 MIPS
13:56:14 <thin> F21 forthchip 20,000 transistors(?) .18 microns 500 MIPS
14:04:11 --- quit: tcn ("Leaving")
14:05:49 <Robert> X18 could do like 2400 MIPS.
14:06:00 <Robert> But it's kind of varpourware anyway :P
14:06:06 <Robert> (I think :)
14:06:21 <Robert> Anyway... the PII got a few more functions built-in.
14:08:47 <thin> nahh ;P
14:08:59 <thin> most of the functionality is for backwards compatibility anyways
14:09:12 <thin> backwards compatibility fucks you over big time :P
14:09:56 <Robert> Well, not "most", but a great deal.
14:10:05 <Robert> Anyway... 2400 mips forth CPUs are sexy.
14:10:09 <thin> yep
14:10:15 <thin> it's a good trade off don't you think
14:10:17 <thin> i mean
14:10:22 <thin> even if there's _ONLY_ 27 primitives
14:10:33 <thin> compared to the 100 instructions that pentium has
14:10:41 <Robert> Only 100?
14:10:44 <thin> more more
14:10:47 <thin> 200? 
14:10:50 <Robert> I'd have guessed on like 300 - 500.
14:10:53 <thin> heh
14:10:56 <thin> okay
14:10:57 <thin> anyways
14:10:58 <Robert> Hmm.. maybe not.
14:11:04 <Robert> 200 maybe.
14:11:20 <thin> 27 primitives, it's fast, 300 to 2400 mips, and very few transistors.. and its cheap with electricity
14:11:38 <Robert> I saw 2/3 of the chip was used for the stacks.
14:15:14 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again")
14:15:33 <thin> that's good :D
14:18:17 --- nick: thin -> forthmonster
14:20:03 --- nick: forthmonster -> me
14:20:12 --- nick: me -> thin
14:36:42 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust50.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth
14:46:14 --- join: tathi (~josh@ip68-9-68-213.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth
14:46:43 <tathi> hey all
14:47:22 <Robert> Hi tathi :)
14:47:24 <Robert> And hello I440r.
14:47:42 <Robert> I'm coding Forth on my sexy AVR board!
14:47:57 <Robert> Using 8 switches for input :)
14:48:06 <tathi> :)
14:48:16 <tathi> solved your EPROM problem?
14:48:32 <Robert> It was only a problem with my brain.
14:48:38 * Robert forgot to initialize SP.
14:49:57 <tathi> ah right.
14:50:01 <Fractal> You've got a stack in your brain? Sweet!
14:50:07 <tathi> was actually there when you figured that out
14:50:13 <tathi> it's all coming back to me now :)
14:50:23 <Fractal> I'm going to run forth on my brain.
14:51:24 <Robert> Cute.
14:51:41 <Robert> If I recoded my brain in Forth, I'd be urinating on my bed now.
14:51:46 * Robert isn't a very good Forth coder.
14:52:07 <Fractal> :(
15:14:06 <ianni> haha
15:16:01 <Robert> Hi ianni.
15:17:05 <ianni> re
16:24:56 --- quit: skylan ("Reconnecting")
16:25:07 --- join: skylan (sjh@Sprint3083.tbaytel.net) joined #forth
17:23:53 --- quit: tathi ("leaving")
17:37:46 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:18:57 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
20:28:50 --- join: bwb (~bwb@ip68-4-124-131.oc.oc.cox.net) joined #forth
20:32:37 <bwb> hi
20:52:25 --- quit: bwb ("later")
21:37:59 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust31.tnt2.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth
22:02:40 --- join: can-o-worms (~patrick@zaqd378a6a0.zaq.ne.jp) joined #forth
22:03:35 <I440r> hi
22:03:35 <I440r> you a forth coder ??? 
22:03:42 <I440r> not that thats a requirement to be in here :)
22:14:40 <can-o-worms> me?
22:14:47 <can-o-worms> no.. not at all
22:15:35 <can-o-worms> just having a look around
22:18:02 <I440r> aha :)
22:18:02 <I440r> know what forth is ?
22:31:20 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth
23:01:41 <Fractal> I440r : How do you implement your indirect threading?
23:01:55 <I440r> its direct threading
23:02:02 <I440r> i dont like indirect threading
23:02:03 <Fractal> Oh, is it? My mistake.
23:02:14 <I440r> how can a pointer to a pointer to code be better than a straight pointer to code
23:02:24 <I440r> if a pointer to a pointer is better why not jug go with a
23:02:31 <I440r> pointer to a pointer to a pointer.... to code
23:03:38 <Fractal> Hm. I thought indirect was a pointer to code, and direct had the code inline...
23:03:49 <I440r> no indirect uses a pointer to a pointer to code
23:03:55 <I440r> direct threading has a pointer to code
23:04:16 <I440r> i.e. every token in a colon definition in indirect threading is a pointer to a pointer to the cfa 
23:04:31 <I440r> in direct threading every token in a colon definition is a pointer to the cfa
23:04:58 <Fractal> Oh, ok. I was thinking about primitives.
23:06:50 <Fractal> So, in a colon definition, a + is a pointer to code?
23:07:09 <I440r> ?
23:07:13 <I440r> ok
23:07:15 <Fractal> Or inline assembly?
23:07:19 <I440r> lets look at a primative
23:07:20 <Fractal> Or am I not getting this?
23:07:22 <I440r> code +
23:07:23 <I440r>  pop eax
23:07:25 <I440r>  pop ebx
23:07:28 <I440r>  add eax, ebx
23:07:30 <I440r>  push ebx
23:07:34 <I440r>  next end-code
23:07:36 <I440r> if you do
23:07:42 <I440r> : foo .... + ..... ;
23:07:50 <Fractal> Right..
23:07:56 <I440r> the + is compiled as a pointer DIRECTLY to the code for +
23:08:01 <I440r> if your direct threaded
23:08:52 <Fractal> Ok, so you've got the pointer, how do you know whether to treat it as a primitive and execute it, or another colon definition?
23:09:51 <I440r> :)
23:09:52 <I440r> well
23:10:07 <I440r> in direct threaded code ALL tokens are pointers to CODE
23:10:09 <I440r> for instance
23:10:15 <I440r> a COLON definition will be
23:10:26 <I440r> some_word:
23:10:27 <I440r>  call nest
23:10:29 <I440r>  dd xxx
23:10:31 <I440r>  dd yyy
23:10:33 <I440r>  dd zzz
23:10:35 <I440r>  dd unnest
23:10:45 <I440r> where xxx yyy and zzz are pointers to cfa's
23:11:31 <I440r> so
23:11:44 <I440r> lets say your forth is interpreting some colon definition as follows
23:11:47 <I440r> some word
23:11:50 <I440r>  ,...
23:11:51 <I440r>  ...
23:11:54 <I440r>  ...
23:11:59 <I440r>  some_word
23:12:02 <I440r>  ...
23:12:04 <I440r>  unnest
23:12:17 <I440r> err call this second some_other_word heh
23:12:39 <I440r> IP points to a token. the word NEXT fetches the next token (the addres of some-word)
23:12:39 <Fractal> Isn't that inefficient on memory?
23:12:42 <I440r> and we JUMP to it
23:12:54 <I440r> no forth is more space efficient than assembler
23:13:37 <Fractal> No, I mean...
23:13:37 <I440r> next is
23:13:40 <I440r> next:
23:13:43 <I440r>  lodsw
23:13:50 <I440r>  jmp eax  (lodsd even)
23:14:01 <I440r> so esi is the IP (interprative pointer)
23:14:21 <I440r> when we jump to the colon definition "some_word"
23:14:27 <I440r> we jump to a call to nest
23:14:36 <I440r> nest upshes IP onto the return stack
23:14:47 <I440r> then it pops the return address of the above call and puts THAT in IP
23:14:58 <I440r> so we point at the first token of some_word
23:16:17 <Fractal> Alright... I'm going to have to think about this.
23:20:38 --- quit: Serg_penguin (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:31:27 <I440r> :)
23:31:34 <I440r> it SEEMS complex but its not realy
23:31:42 <thin> yeah
23:31:48 <thin> get i440r to explain DOES> to you
23:31:53 <thin> and he'll have you confused ;P
23:32:03 <thin> "it SEEMS complex but its not really"
23:32:04 <thin>  ;P
23:32:11 <thin> i440r: i'm just kidding, just teasing you
23:32:28 <thin> i personally thought DOES> is very easy to understand
23:32:41 <thin> and i think i did a good job of explaining it to ianni
23:32:42 <thin> etc
23:33:32 <I440r> heh
23:33:50 <I440r> i was creating does> words for 10 years without understanding the inner workings of the mechanism
23:45:47 <thin> you mean what it does or how the implementation works ?
23:46:03 <I440r> i knew what it did
23:46:07 <I440r> just not HOW it did it heh
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.09.02