00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.08.30 00:00:32 Uhmm... 00:00:44 Actually, I don't think that would be completley impossible. 00:00:55 The main problem is the (lack of) RAM. 00:01:04 The best of these controllers have one or two kB of RAM. 00:01:28 But, I saw a document about connecting a PC keyboard to these things. 00:01:32 And it's so simple! 00:01:48 You just have to connect it to two I/O pins, and give it voltage. 00:02:34 and have proggie in ROM.... 00:03:22 i have seen frequency meter made of TWO parts - microcontroller and LCD 00:03:29 :) 00:03:56 You can have external RAM and flash. 00:04:00 + quartz and few RC 00:04:18 The board I'm getting has a 256kB flash card. 00:04:29 I wish it had some RAM expansion, too :-/ 00:04:54 what will u do w/ it ? 00:06:01 First of all, I'll write a virtual machine and store in the ROM. 00:06:10 Then all new programs will run on top of that. 00:06:23 why ? 00:06:26 That way I don't have to mess with the program memory much. 00:06:40 It's only guaranteed to work for 1000 writes. 00:07:08 robert thats a little better than NEC flash memory 00:07:14 Besides, I got 256kB of flash memory, and just a few kB of program memory. The program memory isn't writable by programs. 00:07:16 its guaranteed for a whole 20 writes! 00:07:19 I440r: Hehe :P 00:07:23 Pfff... 00:07:29 Sounds...err...not good. 00:07:46 amd flash is guaranteed for 20k writes or something 00:07:47 The PIC family's flash/eeprom can take much more. 00:07:58 Like 100,000/10,000,000 00:08:01 intel flash is guaranteed for 100 million writes or something 00:08:06 i froget the numbers 00:08:11 Hehe. 00:08:32 is the chip so expensive ? why not just replace it after 1000 cycles ? 00:08:32 Well, that's why I'll write a VM. Also, I can implement some fancy features in it. 00:08:43 Separate data stack & teturn stack ;) 00:09:03 Serg_penguin: Well... it's not that expensive, I just don't want to waste resources. 00:09:05 tatoo stack ;Ö 00:09:08 ;) 00:09:18 And...eh...why wouldn't I write a VM? 00:09:28 If I can, I'll try to connect a PC keyboard to it :-) 00:09:31 Hey onetom :) 00:09:57 time to go zzz 00:10:09 --- quit: I440r (": sleep bed go tuck light off ; immediate") 00:10:21 * onetom s presence is just temporary 00:10:47 So is mine, I'll leave you in about 30 mins. 00:14:28 * Serg_penguin dreams about hobby comp ( like Amiga or Speccy ) on Forth CPU 00:14:58 have u read the book "Stack computers ?" 00:15:35 "Stack computers !" ? 00:17:47 Nope. :/ 00:19:17 read - it rulez 00:19:37 I bet it does, there is one little problem, though... 00:19:40 I don't have it :-( 00:19:57 suck it from wire, as i did 00:20:30 Oh.... 00:20:41 I don't like reading stuff on the computer :-( 00:20:44 Is it too long to print? 00:20:53 or vizit irc.bookwarez.net or some kind of this 00:21:25 dunno know, read from screen or palm pilot 00:21:36 Hrm :-/ 00:55:59 --- quit: Serg_penguin () 01:07:08 --- quit: Robert (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 01:07:08 --- quit: onetom (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 01:07:08 --- quit: Fractal (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 01:07:08 --- quit: thin (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 01:07:08 --- quit: Miciah (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 01:07:08 --- quit: ChanServ (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 01:07:17 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 01:07:17 --- join: onetom (~root@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 01:07:17 --- join: Robert (~Robert@robost86.tsps1.freenet6.net) joined #forth 01:07:17 --- join: Fractal (fzazz@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth 01:07:17 --- join: thin (thin@h24-64-175-61.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 01:07:17 --- join: Miciah (~Didle@NBN-TNT2-pool1-221.coastalnet.com) joined #forth 01:07:17 --- mode: card.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 01:07:26 --- quit: Miciah (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 01:07:26 --- quit: ChanServ (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 01:09:17 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 01:09:17 --- join: Miciah (~Didle@NBN-TNT2-pool1-221.coastalnet.com) joined #forth 01:09:17 --- mode: card.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 01:12:36 --- quit: Robert (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 01:12:36 --- quit: onetom (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 01:12:36 --- quit: Fractal (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 01:12:36 --- quit: thin (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 01:12:54 --- join: thin (thin@h24-64-175-61.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 01:12:54 --- join: Fractal (fzazz@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth 01:12:54 --- join: Robert (~Robert@robost86.tsps1.freenet6.net) joined #forth 01:12:54 --- join: onetom (~root@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 01:13:13 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 01:13:13 --- quit: Serg_penguin (Killed (NickServ (Nickname Enforcement))) 01:14:13 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 01:14:13 --- quit: Serg_penguin (Killed (NickServ (Nickname Enforcement))) 01:15:45 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 01:15:45 --- nick: Serg_penguin -> tmp_nick 01:15:47 --- nick: tmp_nick -> Serg_penguin 01:16:45 --- quit: Serg_penguin (Client Quit) 01:17:21 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 01:17:21 --- nick: Serg_penguin -> Serg_pinguin 01:17:22 --- nick: Serg_pinguin -> Serg_penguin 01:18:45 --- quit: Serg_penguin (Client Quit) 01:19:27 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 01:20:25 --- quit: Serg_penguin (Client Quit) 01:22:19 --- quit: onetom (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 01:22:19 --- quit: Fractal (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 01:22:19 --- quit: thin (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 01:22:47 --- join: onetom (~root@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 01:23:15 --- join: thin (thin@h24-64-175-61.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 01:23:40 --- join: Fractal (fzazz@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth 01:44:29 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 01:45:00 --- part: Serg_penguin left #forth 02:44:38 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 02:49:54 --- quit: Serg_penguin () 03:47:23 --- join: ASau (ASau@158.250.48.197) joined #forth 04:55:59 --- join: sif (~sifforth@ip68-9-70-120.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 04:55:59 Type sif: (or /msg sif to play in private) 05:09:52 sif: : (: ." :)" ; (: 05:09:53 Robert: :) 05:17:00 sif: : ;) . 05:17:02 ASau: 05:17:20 sif: : ;) ." :) " ; ;) 05:17:22 ASau: :) 05:17:32 sif: ;) 05:17:33 ASau: Word not found: ;) 05:17:56 :))) 05:18:38 sif: :) 05:18:39 ASau: Word not found: :) 05:18:47 Hi ASau :) 05:18:57 Good afternoon! 05:19:04 It's like 05:19:09 make love 05:19:15 Hm? 05:19:23 make: don't know how to make love 05:19:31 Oh.. 05:19:33 :) 05:20:05 robert@neptunium:~$ "You fucking idiot" 05:20:05 bash: You fucking idiot: command not found 05:20:11 * Robert giggles like a little girl. 05:44:52 I've got an interesting idea. 05:45:21 To write an Forth-analog of M4 macropreprocessor 05:45:42 What d'you think? 06:25:18 --- join: tathi (~josh@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 06:35:27 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 07:08:47 Good evening! 07:08:53 I've got an interesting idea. 07:08:55 To write an Forth-analog of M4 macropreprocessor 07:08:58 What d'you think? 07:09:54 don't know m4 much 07:10:23 That's like this: 07:11:07 got a word, if a macro is defined, perform macro, 07:11:27 if no macro is defined, just copy out 07:12:27 go on, staring from the beginning of text changed. 07:12:31 * tathi comes back from reading m4 info page 07:12:32 go on, starting from the beginning of text changed. 07:12:46 by "perform macro" you mean execute word? 07:12:55 Yes. 07:13:03 I'd just use m4 :) 07:13:09 rather not do text processing in forth 07:13:32 so, basically a forth engine that when it encounters word-not-found prints it and continues instead of halting 07:13:58 Yes 07:14:47 Minor change: 07:15:09 new "forth" parses not words, 07:15:11 and tacks any text output of a word back onto the beginning of the input stream 07:15:19 but character sequences. 07:15:43 Like a TECO. 07:19:07 good morning! >:D 07:19:38 Good evening, thin! 07:19:44 Hi all :) 07:20:14 BTW, how can I get chat logs? 07:20:27 who clog 07:20:40 or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/forth 07:21:28 and how can I make clog to give them? 07:21:49 sorry, meant /who clog will get you the URL 07:22:19 in case I got it wrong :) 07:24:03 it's /whois clog 07:24:17 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/forth/ is correct 07:24:27 takes you directly to the forth place 07:25:44 grr :) 07:25:49 heh 07:27:56 --- join: Miciah_ (~Didle@NBN-TNT2-pool1-137.coastalnet.com) joined #forth 07:27:57 ASau: I'm not farmilliar with TECO... do you mean that if you had a word "go" defined, that it would be executed when enterpreting "got milk?" 07:33:40 morning miciah_ 07:35:03 robert: stack computers book is online on the web, the author put it up at his site 07:35:11 robert: don't you know, all books are online now ;P 07:35:14 robert: http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/stack_computers/index.html 07:35:43 print it out if you can't read it online :P 07:38:32 Herkamire: yes, I mean this. 07:39:58 Herkamire: Maybe, it's better to parse including 1 blank. 07:40:26 Herkamire: I.e., if "go" is defined, then... 07:40:41 Herkamire: "got milk" is just copied 07:41:08 TECO is an ancient editor or something.. 07:41:20 Herkamire: but "go milk" executes go and leaves two additional blanks 07:41:46 TECO is an editor for "real programmers". 07:42:04 --- quit: Miciah (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:42:09 TECO requires you understand what you're doing. 07:42:17 --- nick: Miciah_ -> Miciah 07:42:21 TECO requires you understand _VERY_WELL_ what you're doing. 07:43:00 ASau: maybe I'll check it out sometime. I haven't finished learning and being impressed by Vim 07:44:03 Herkamire: I don't like Vim. 07:44:03 TECO is OLD heh 07:44:16 it was used by fortran/cobol coders ;) 07:44:17 Herkamire: I'm impressed by TECO. 07:44:32 thin: Never mind. 07:44:55 thin: No relations. 07:45:21 thin: Forth is old too. 07:46:53 the vi interface has a learning curve 07:49:51 I see one thing vi lacks: a command laguage. 07:50:11 I can't do simple text formatting using vi only. 07:51:12 --- quit: Robert (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:52:24 hm 07:52:35 i don't know vi well enough to argue ;P 07:52:58 probably doesn't have the command language i guess 07:56:33 It does not, of course. 07:57:13 --- join: Robert (~Robert@robost86.tsps1.freenet6.net) joined #forth 08:07:16 ASau: don't know about all vi clones, but you can pass a script file to vim, so you should be able to do simple text formatting with it... 08:07:28 not that I've tried, but... 08:09:24 tathi: I can pass script files into anything that uses stdin 08:09:44 but I just want to write an expression and see result. 08:09:52 I believe vim does have a scripting language 08:10:09 and you have access to it from within the editor or from the command line 08:10:12 Not to strike something rather complex again and again. 08:10:37 I don't know what it's good for though, I haven't really learned anaything about it 08:11:20 everyone knows the BEST editor is edit.com for dos! 08:11:49 :P 08:11:53 no they don't 08:12:18 Well, I know my jobs are not so complex to require a 700K of Vim 08:12:23 the first time i installed linux 08:12:29 i was SO pissed off about the editors 08:12:30 plus a 100K docs. 08:12:34 they didn't have any good editors like EDIT.COM 08:13:19 I know that, e.g, 50K sed is enough. 08:13:22 ASau: I don't care about size. I have GIGs free on my HD and 100MB of unused memory usually 08:13:36 so long as it starts up fast I don't care how big it is 08:14:28 Herk.: I've sometimes to migrate with 1 or 2 diskettes... 08:14:40 all programmers in the world should be forced to use only a p75 with 16 megs of ram, and a 2 gig harddrive ;) 08:14:50 to systems, where I can't find anything except EDIT.COM. 08:14:50 or maybe just 1 gig hdd 08:15:03 ASau: cool :) 08:15:26 thin: the only thing people need GIGs for is music and movies 08:15:27 MS should include EDLIN.COM in their distribs. 08:15:43 In addition to DEBUG.COM which is always present 08:16:05 Herk: I think so too. 08:17:34 I've used approx. 2,5 MB of disk space for all my sources (I created) 08:17:38 I can't imagine needing more than 100MB for even a fancy, "modern", Graphical OS with all sorts of features 08:17:50 and I think it could be done in 10MB 08:17:58 and I'm struggling to use less. 08:18:21 I think it can be done in 1MB 08:18:45 i've got about 1 gig of essential content on my 40 gig hdd 08:19:54 1,5 MB is a rather thick book. 08:20:38 I don't think that an editor is 1/10 of complexity. 08:20:51 I don't think that an editor is _even_ 1/10 of complexity. 08:21:20 I think that an editor is less than 1/10 of complexity. 08:21:37 Vim doesn't fit. 08:24:31 Excuse me, I'll reply inaccurate. 08:24:48 I'm reading "Pride and Prejudice" in English. 08:24:52 I don't use all of vim :) 08:24:59 It is rather difficult for me. 08:25:41 Well. If you use a small part of vim, why should I use such a big editor 08:26:12 in the case I can use more complex and much smaller editor. 08:30:48 because it's not worth my time to shrink vim. the excess doesn't bother me much 08:30:58 I like the parts I use 08:33:36 ;) ed, man! man ed 08:33:40 NAME ed 08:33:57 SINOPSYS ed filename 08:34:05 DESCRIPTION 08:34:15 ed is a standard UNIX editor 08:34:19 08:34:23 :))) 08:34:33 Do you know this joke? 08:43:58 nice 08:49:00 TECO is much better than ed in the sense it works with characters, not the whole lines. 08:56:42 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 08:57:32 --- join: Robert_ (~Robert@robost86.tsps1.freenet6.net) joined #forth 08:57:45 welcome 08:58:02 --- quit: Robert (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: Robert_!~Robert@robost86.tsps1.freenet6.net))) 08:58:12 --- nick: Robert_ -> Robert 08:58:35 Hi :) 08:58:47 sif: :) 08:58:49 ianni: Word not found: :) 08:58:52 haha 08:58:56 forth bot.. that's beautiful :) 08:59:06 hi r0b 08:59:10 sif: me ? 08:59:11 ianni: Word not found: me 08:59:13 ;) 08:59:14 hehe 08:59:17 sif: Forth 08:59:18 ASau: Word not found: Forth 08:59:27 sif: forth 08:59:28 :))) 08:59:28 ianni: Word not found: forth 08:59:33 stupid bot! :) 08:59:47 sif: bot 08:59:48 ASau: Word not found: bot 08:59:53 :P 09:00:07 sif: @ . 09:00:07 sif: stupid 09:00:08 ianni: stack underflow 09:00:09 ASau: Word not found: stupid 09:00:15 ianni: :P 09:00:18 hehe 09:00:38 sif : stupid ." stupid stupid stupid" ; 09:00:43 ianni: You've losed you party. 09:00:43 hehe 09:00:50 ASau: huh? 09:00:59 I mean: against suf 09:01:01 I mean: against sif 09:01:06 oh yeah :) 09:01:07 I lost 09:01:41 Oh! Mistake! My poor English. :((( 09:01:58 :) 09:02:11 russian? 09:02:39 I lost my. Vs. English. 09:02:49 I lost mine. Vs. English. 09:02:59 ASau lol 09:03:23 ? lol <-- What does it mean? 09:03:36 it means "laughing out loud" 09:03:46 common internet anagram 09:03:59 I'll write down. 09:04:11 :) 09:08:45 you must not chat very much 09:09:07 not anagram... acronym 09:09:52 anagram is when you rearange the letters in a word or phrase (e.g. dood --> dodo) 09:09:52 errr 09:09:58 my mistake! 09:10:06 haha 09:10:10 <-- morning coffee 09:11:00 --- join: mslicker (~mark@64.27.199.31) joined #forth 09:11:48 so how can I decrypt machine code on a PPC 09:11:58 anyone doing icfp entry? 09:12:37 objdump -d 09:13:11 mslicker: are you licking Microsoft? 09:13:44 how can I write the code of a word to a file so I can objdump it? :) 09:13:58 just curious if theres any way I can analyze some of them arbitrarily. 09:14:00 I'm a newbie. 09:14:13 ianni: what word? 09:14:18 Herkamire: no specific one 09:14:20 ianni: Read the doc. 09:14:23 that I don't know...I don't use gforth much 09:14:24 ianni: what software? 09:14:25 ASau: ok. 09:14:28 gforth. 09:14:35 Ha! 09:14:41 I don't think gforth produces PPC object code 09:14:42 Read the gforth source 09:14:53 yeah, someone was telling me it was emulatd 09:15:10 ianni: do you want code for the builtin words? 09:15:31 I don't if gforth makes PF (body) accessible. 09:15:42 I don't know if gforth makes PF (body) accessible. 09:15:55 Herkamire: no I want to be able to interpret the code I get when I "see" words that are machien code. 09:16:02 arbitrarily. 09:16:03 mslicker: what's icfp? 09:16:07 maybe thats not possible 09:16:11 or silly 09:16:11 ianni: too bad :) there isn't any machine code for those words 09:16:16 Herkamire: ok. :) 09:16:19 tathi: http://icfpcontest.cse.ogi.edu/ 09:16:39 I thought it might be nice to have a Forth entry. 09:16:54 ok 09:16:58 mslicker: That's that contest? 09:17:05 see sp! 09:17:05 Code sp! 09:17:05 49B0: 81 71 C3 C0 7F 5E D3 78 - 83 5A 00 00 48 00 05 78 .q...^.x.Z..H..x 09:17:05 end-code 09:17:12 ianni: tathi is writing a colorforth that produces PPC object code, but I don't know of any other forths that do (and his isn't done) 09:17:26 all I was finding was international contest on functional programming, and that didn't seem right :) 09:17:46 mslicker: it looks cool 09:18:10 I was thinking of ding an entry in colorForth. 09:18:30 That would have to be worth some prize :) 09:18:45 is colorforth a functional language? 09:19:08 (I don't know the definition of a functional language, but I thought forth wasn't one of them) 09:19:12 you can use any language, there are no definiitons. 09:19:16 Joy is a functional analog of Forth. 09:19:22 See link on RuFIG. 09:19:39 Forth admits a functtional model. 09:19:59 Which is what the Joy research shows. 09:20:53 it's true, forth contains some of the functional paradigm 09:21:02 as well as iterative, concatenative, whatever ;P 09:21:48 s/whatever/etc 09:22:34 I just have boot strap colorForth so it can run on linux. 09:22:40 argh! 09:22:44 it starts today? :/ 09:22:49 yeah :) 09:23:02 in 35 minutes ? 09:23:04 I should have thought of it earlier 09:23:09 argh!!!! 09:23:11 i wanted to do it 09:23:23 except i work 09:23:26 hmmmm 09:23:28 I won't. 09:23:34 I can not. 09:24:24 mslicker: What is there: morning/afternoon/evening? 09:24:43 Where do you sit? 09:24:47 afternoon 09:25:28 8.30 pm on my watches 09:26:37 I'm afraid I'm unable to start anything today. 09:26:47 mslicker: so your real motivation here is that you want to have the contest judges state that "colorForth is the programming tool of choice for discriminating hackers"? :) 09:26:51 the contest starts in about 2 and a half hours 09:27:02 in front of a large group of people? 09:27:12 tathi: indeed! :) 09:27:22 ooh, oo forth... 09:27:45 PDT = ? pacific time ? 09:28:03 yeah 09:28:06 2 and a half i guess 09:28:21 I think there is also a judges prize. 09:28:45 it would be worthy of that, if didn't place first. 09:28:55 okay 09:28:57 first is extreemly difficult. 09:28:59 who's interested in doing this? 09:29:03 any teams ? 09:29:13 i'm guessing that onetom will be interested 09:29:33 perhaps a team consisting of onetom, me, and anybody else interested ? 09:29:51 do know colorForth? 09:29:54 we're allowed to use any language and any combination of languages 09:29:55 I can join only for 1 day. 09:29:59 nope, i don't know colorforth :( 09:30:10 asau: there's the 72 hours option.. and there's the 24 hours option 09:30:28 asau: how much time in the next 72 hours do you have available? 09:30:30 thin: never mind, read the spec. 09:30:47 asau: ?? 09:30:56 thin: maybe Sun. 09:31:12 it doesn't matter if you have to sleep soon, that doesn't affect the contest 09:31:17 Not the Monday 09:31:31 you have some time available on saturday and sunday? 09:31:35 a few hours here and there 09:31:48 a few hours in between the things you have to do 09:32:14 hm 09:32:19 we'll have to see what the task is ;) 09:32:49 I have some time avail. on Sat. and Sun. 09:32:50 mslicker: how can you use colorforth? 09:32:51 OK. 09:33:02 there is no colorforth implementations for linux.. 09:33:14 * ASau gets colorForth 09:33:15 thin: I need to bootstrap it. 09:33:29 it's supposed to run on linux redhat 7.3 .. 09:33:43 you'll need to create a turnkey'd application i guess.. 09:33:49 a static executable that runs for them.. 09:33:52 yes, I'm generating an elf. 09:33:56 ah cool 09:33:57 Oh! I've completely forgot. 09:34:04 Maybe, gforth? 09:34:09 I'm trying to include the source in the elf. 09:34:23 hehe this contest looks fun 09:35:11 reading previous years 09:35:11 ianni: yeah :D 09:36:42 Look at Terry Loveall's c4th100.zip 09:39:18 www.users.qwest.net/~loveall/ 09:39:25 It is under DOS. 09:39:36 --- nick: Herkamire -> herk_away 09:41:14 mslicker: is it easy to generate an elf? is the elf format fairly simple ? 09:41:47 I have the colorForth sources in gas, so I'm just compiling them. 09:42:02 I striped out all the graphics, and floppy code. 09:42:20 only left with what I need. 09:42:41 I'm trying to interface it with std i/o 09:43:23 Then it process any data sent to it. 09:44:29 FILES? 09:45:04 no, no files, just linux system calls. 09:45:06 Or input stream only? 09:45:27 yes input sream, output stream. 09:45:33 OK. 09:45:37 I hope that is all I need. 09:45:47 All you need is love. 09:45:51 ;) 09:45:58 :) 09:46:44 haha 09:48:06 mslicker: which colorforth sources do you have in gas? chuck moore's ? loveall's ? 09:48:24 Chuck Moore's 09:48:34 originally in masm. 09:50:34 How do you change colors? 09:51:25 not sure I understand. 09:51:55 asau: tags 09:52:12 asau: tags are in the source.. the editor reads the tags and displays the color 09:52:29 and stores tags when you hit the keys while coding colorforth 09:52:40 mslicker: how familiar are you with colorforth? 09:53:00 thin: I know it quite well. 09:53:53 cool :) 09:53:57 Well. How your version differs from Loveall's 09:54:09 in the way to input text? 09:54:27 I'm under DOS. 09:54:36 mslicker: i tested chuckmoore's colorforth, but i wasn't able to execute any code.. LOAD didn't work and i thought i had the code correct :( 09:54:37 I don't know, this one will use Linux. 09:55:41 load compiles definitions, yellow words are executed. 09:56:08 you might have to test the words with the interpreter. 09:56:54 i had a yellow word to start execution of the block 09:57:22 : blah ; 09:57:22 blah 09:57:28 hmm, 09:57:29 i had something like that.. 09:57:31 heh 09:57:39 i'll have to try out colorforth again sometime 09:57:56 it's really nice I think. 09:58:04 starting fresh. 09:58:10 So, what Forth do we use? 09:58:14 mslicker: what have you coded in colorforth? 09:58:39 http://www.oakland.edu/~maslicke/colorforth/ 09:59:00 cool :) 09:59:15 you should hang out on this chan, we need more colorforthers here ;) 09:59:23 :) 09:59:27 tathi is coding a colorforth in ppc 09:59:35 neat! 10:03:47 chuck moore is finally updating www.colorforth.com 10:03:55 it'll be up on sept 2 :D 10:04:13 yes, I'm very excited. :) 10:05:41 hopefully some people have submitted code 10:05:47 for those things that he wanted code for.. 10:06:06 I did a couple. 10:06:32 In my directory, see mandelbrot, and jpeg. 10:07:31 did anyone here start forth without knowingany asm 10:07:52 mslicker: 17 blocks? ;) 10:08:38 9 blocks for jpeg 10:08:50 half are shadow blocks. 10:08:54 comments 10:09:29 ah 10:09:40 That one was a bit difficult, in time I'd like whitttle it down some more. 10:09:59 *+ multiply step... What' it? 10:10:44 mslicker: yeah, i'm curious how small chuck moore would've made it.. altho it probably would lack lots of features? 10:11:14 mine lacks a lot of features. 10:11:47 jpeg is not a simple one, but I'm sure Chuck could do better than me. 10:12:12 well you know his ide driver that is only like 2 lines of code ? 10:12:30 probably most other drivers have error checking and such.. 10:13:13 maybe, it depends on what you want to do of course. 10:14:22 file systems might require more extensive recovery. 10:14:54 sorry, what is does>? 10:15:20 does> puts code inside the word 10:15:29 the word being created 10:15:40 usually you use CREATE and DOES> together 10:15:45 so you create a word 10:15:51 and then DOES> basically says what code goes inside that word 10:15:56 right 10:16:01 cool thank you 10:16:11 so the word can be a word that does something 10:16:28 instead of being a dumb variable ;) 10:16:29 or a variable constant value 10:16:38 yeah that too 10:16:45 which is the example I'm looking at. 10:16:58 like, CONSTANT is probably defined something like this 10:17:03 yes exactly that 10:17:04 : CONSTANT CREATE , DOES> @ ; 10:17:13 so it creates the constant word 10:17:27 and when you put that word in, and store a number to it, it fetches that number automatically 10:17:34 so you don't have to type @ after it 10:17:39 :P 10:18:20 DOES> is cool because you can use it for creating programs that create programs ;) 10:18:21 so variables are just words. 10:18:26 Yeah :) 10:18:40 so 10:18:47 create , initializes a cell to 0 ? 10:18:48 or 10:18:49 .. 10:19:10 what is , 10:19:16 ahh, n/m 10:19:18 the , basically allocates a cell (the non-forth word) 10:19:26 right 10:19:36 here cell allot 10:19:49 it probably initializes it to 0 too 10:20:01 dont think so 10:20:04 : , 10:20:04 here cell allot ! ; ok 10:20:29 man, trying to wrap my head around this all 10:20:31 this is day #2 :) 10:20:42 :) 10:21:01 look at allot 10:21:05 does anyone know how to align a binary file? 10:21:06 allot might initialize it to 0 10:21:15 here + dup 1- usable-dictionary-end forthstart within -8 and throw dp ! 10:21:27 greek to me. 10:21:28 :) 10:21:31 yeah me too 10:21:35 10:21:41 dp = dictionary pointer 10:21:51 that's reassuring to hear you say that. 10:21:52 it's incrementing the dictionary pointer 10:21:53 :) 10:22:08 to make room for the word's new cell. 10:22:22 cool. 10:22:25 i suppose -8 is the cell length or something 10:22:30 "within -8" 10:22:34 magic! ;P 10:22:54 forth is wild 10:23:13 oh yeah! it's wild, wet, and sexy! ;P 10:23:14 and i thought asm was a true hackers language... this is just insane 10:23:19 heh 10:23:34 ianni: about your asm question, i think most people do start of knowing some asm 10:24:01 ianni: altho i haven't really coded that much, i read a whole book about it "assembly language step-by-step" by jeff dunteman (best asm book in the world!) 10:24:04 I think I can grok enough ASM. but I feel a bit disadvantaged, and wonder if I should 10:24:12 I read the first 1/4 of a good book on HLA once 10:24:17 was very enlightening 10:24:37 well it's probably not that big of a deal.. as long as you understand how the cpu works 10:24:49 how it accesses memory, etc 10:24:53 but that's only just useful 10:24:54 not required 10:25:33 i definitely recommend "assembly language step-by-step" :) 10:25:44 i didn't have to touch the computer at all when i read it 10:25:44 yeah 10:25:46 I think I'm ok 10:25:59 it was 99 % background 10:26:02 and 1% asm code 10:26:05 and i ran that in my head ;) 10:26:12 yeah 10:26:18 that was like what I read... all very abstract 10:27:46 ohhh mann!! ICFP's 2000 contest.. implement a ray tracer, a language called GML.. postscript-like 10:28:02 but it says it's gotta be dynamically typed :/ 10:28:19 if it wasn't dynamically typed, forth would've been great ;) 10:29:10 --- nick: herk_away -> Herkamire 10:29:15 colorForth is perfect 10:29:25 here here :) 10:30:36 thin: I thought you meant this years 10:30:44 heh, no 10:30:48 year 2000 10:30:50 :P 10:31:03 i'm more interested in machineforth at the moment than colorforth :P 10:31:09 colorforth seems complicated ;P 10:31:32 does anyone know about linking? on linux? 10:32:37 I'm trying to link in the source, but ends up not to be word aligned. 10:33:55 mslicker: i440r might know something 10:34:08 he should get on sometime today 10:34:35 you could ask on other channels.. #asm #assembler #debian #linux etc 10:34:54 good idea, thanks. 10:35:36 well i gotta go to work 10:35:37 bbl 10:35:52 bye 10:36:01 --- join: CrowKiller (Forther@Ottawa-HSE-ppp3653812.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 10:38:24 mslicker: you're trying to do what? I know a bit about linking from playing around with assembly language 10:38:53 I'm trying to link word-aligned data. 10:39:12 acutually colorForth source, in fact. 10:39:56 --- nick: CrowKiller -> CrowBRB 10:39:58 meaning you have the source in a file and you want to put it in a section in your ELF? 10:40:15 right. 10:40:51 I've done this, but it is byte aligned. 10:41:17 ok, don't know about that 10:41:21 how'd you get it to link in? 10:42:36 ld -o icfp icfp.o -b binary source -b elf32-i386 10:45:25 maybe I need to write a linker script. 10:45:36 that is intimidating :) 10:46:27 it's actually not that hard 10:48:12 FOR-AFT-THEN-NEXT... 10:48:21 explain, please. 10:48:31 though it's interesting, the linux program loader seems to not relocate things 10:49:13 I had a problem with that, my program wouldn't load because the address I had in the linker script wasn't available 10:49:18 took me forever to figure out 10:49:49 seems to work, just the data is shifted one byte. 10:50:08 cool 10:52:02 mslicker: ??? FOR-AFT-THEN-NEXT 10:52:27 no idea. 10:53:00 Hmm. 10:53:16 It's from Loveall's colorForth... 10:53:57 How much time until start? 10:54:36 --- join: I440r (mark4@pool-63.52.218.37.ipls.grid.net) joined #forth 10:54:50 Maybe I'll be able to see a task... 10:55:06 I440r: I have a question for you. 10:55:16 hi :) 10:55:18 ask 10:55:39 do you know how to link word-aligned data on linux? 10:56:07 err as in linking different compiled objects ? 10:56:30 the LINK process is another one of the reasons i think c and its ilk are fucked in the head 10:56:40 he's got colorforth source in a file, he wants the linker to put that (word aligned) into an ELF 10:56:59 hmm 10:57:22 err will colorforth source run undern linux ? 10:57:35 I'm going to make it :) 10:57:49 if teh data has been compiled/assembled as word aligned the linker should not unalign it 10:58:12 it is just source code, not machine code. 10:58:30 I440r: mslicker is doing this: ld -o icfp icfp.o -b binary source -b elf32-i386 10:58:31 paste me a little of the source, i dont quite understand what you mean 10:58:49 the data is in a separate file, just want that file copied into the data section of the executable 10:59:00 hrm 10:59:38 wouldn't be terribly hard to do with a linker script, but... 11:00:41 mslicker: have you tried making sure the last thing in the data section of icfp.o is word aligned? 11:01:08 I'll try that right now. 11:03:12 yay!! 11:03:15 it works 11:03:18 thanks 11:03:36 see... i knoew i could fix your problem :) 11:06:25 :) 11:07:57 hmm, I think this crazy idea might actually work. 11:09:15 seemed to run the colorForth source 11:10:51 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:12:24 --- join: ASau (ASau@158.250.48.197) joined #forth 11:12:26 cool cool 11:15:10 I'll see you guys later, thanks for the help. 11:15:44 --- quit: mslicker ("[x]chat") 11:18:14 Hmm... 11:18:41 tathi: And what d'you think about to take part? 11:19:18 thin: Your opinion? 11:22:12 take part in ICFP competition? 11:22:29 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:22:30 no, I'm busy this weekend 11:23:00 and I don't have an x86 box :) 11:23:51 Hmm. 11:24:02 I have no Linux installed. 11:24:23 I don't think it makes sense. 11:28:48 --- join: I440r (mark4@pool-63.52.218.35.ipls.grid.net) joined #forth 11:30:17 Does anyone know A.W.M.Horsts new-fig-forths? 11:31:53 not me... 11:37:25 ive looked at them, im impressed with his assembler but i couldnt use it 11:37:54 plus i never liked the fig model :) 11:45:32 I think if I can get his linux version running approx. the same way as dos one 11:50:06 that contest looks fun, but I probably won't enter. I'm going away this weekend, and I don't have an x86 box. 11:50:06 --- quit: thin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:53:41 what contest ? 11:54:50 hang on, let me find the url again... 11:55:28 Internation Conference on Functional Programming contest 11:55:43 http://cristal.inria.fr/ICFP2001/prog-contest/ 11:56:00 starts in about 3 minutes, runs for 72 hours or something 11:56:03 :) 11:56:08 anyone here wanna write isforht an editor ? 11:57:39 Anyone is going to participate? 11:58:08 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 11:58:34 XeF4: http://icfpcontest.cse.ogi.edu/ 11:58:44 Good night! 11:59:35 * I440r looks :) 11:59:37 yeah, sorry, I had the wrong URL there 11:59:53 ack, no time to prepare myself now 12:00:09 (read: get a proper night's sleep, etc) 12:00:32 Task is robot control. 12:00:55 In a simulated world. 12:01:27 hm hm im also not educated 4 such a challange.. 12:06:28 ASau: where can u c the task? 12:06:41 ah, got it 12:07:34 onetom: http://icfpcontest.cse.ogi.edu/task.html 12:08:05 ok guys, give me a minute or two and i might release the next isforth 12:08:22 what's new? 12:08:24 with dynamic memory management, text windowing and an option to make isforht case insensative 12:08:27 --- nick: CrowBRB -> CrowKilr 12:08:52 great 12:10:11 What do you think on the task? 12:11:06 I can explain some logic points to implement... 12:11:07 hmm... @1st glance its ... 12:11:23 but: I've got no Forth to debug code. 12:11:39 ASau: ? 12:11:40 I've got no linux. 12:11:44 ASau: ah, c 12:11:50 I'm under DOS. 12:12:14 ASau: gforth has a dos version and 0.5.0 has debugging capabilities 12:12:37 onetom: I use FIG dialect. 12:12:40 i'll try to build my own forth source editor, with each program having his own dictionary, and the editor having a master's spellbook or dictionary 12:12:49 I speak FIG dialect. :) 12:13:27 Of course, I can help in logic things. 12:13:45 But, maybe, not everytime in implementation. 12:13:52 ASau: do u know any fig 4th 4 linux? 12:14:06 A.Horsts. 12:14:10 A.Horst's. 12:14:46 But it differs in the way of ANTI-94. 12:14:52 does it have debugging cap.? 12:15:13 I don't use them. 12:15:30 I write at first time. 12:15:38 Or I fail. 12:16:04 : ... ; ... FORGET ... 12:16:07 :) 12:16:41 hmm, u, russians have a pretty extended forth site @ forth.org.ru... 12:16:54 I know. 12:16:57 but i dont understand russian ;( 12:17:17 If you want I can help. 12:17:19 it would b great if there were translations.... 12:17:35 eg, i saw there is also a wiki 12:17:42 Ah. 12:17:47 It is new. 12:18:12 we r working on an international ZWiki product w my friend 12:18:30 and w the original author of ZWiki (uknow, its 4 zope) 12:19:03 so, i'd love 2 c multilang wikis in the future ;) 12:19:42 @least the most important and established pages should b translated @ least partially, ithink 12:20:09 "02 Feb 2002. The Wiki is started on the site. Come, read, write." 12:20:28 From RuFIG news. 12:20:45 one: so someone translates from Russion into Hungarian into very bad English, then I translate into very bad Finnish and someone translates from there into very bad Swedish? 12:20:57 I'd like to see what the Swedish version would look like in that case.. 12:21:13 the english version can be peer reviewed 12:21:24 and the others toos 12:21:28 its a wiki ;p 12:21:37 Well. Do we join contest? 12:22:22 AS: I've no time and no steady net connection, so I can't. 12:22:49 im kind of to busy with school, missed two math class in a row because i didnt slept lol 12:23:36 onetom: ? 12:23:52 onetom: What do you think? 12:24:15 I can use any (rather classic) forth at your opinion. 12:24:46 I can use even colorForth with a penalty in a time. 12:26:12 is there a colorforth that runs under Linux? 12:26:18 I'm to meet my friend in 6 am. Now it is 11.30 pm. I've got 6-7 hours of free time. 12:26:41 mslicker said he can make. 12:27:23 mslicker? 12:27:24 ASau: sorry, im also 2 busy w business & university duties 12:27:34 Of course I'd rather prefer more classic forth. 12:27:51 I'll be away all weekend 12:28:03 Well. Then I also won't take part. 12:28:08 ASau: beside, im not clever enough 4 such a complex problem 12:28:10 Maybe in a year? 12:28:19 onetom: I can help. 12:28:32 ASau: it requires serious linear prorgamming skills, ithink 12:29:00 onetom: Graphs, and search. 12:29:12 graphs? 12:29:19 ASau: beside many robotics related knowledge, like cognitive maps, and so on 12:29:39 Herk: How will you find the shortest way? 12:29:57 onetom: I don't think so. 12:30:13 Do not overcomplicate. 12:30:34 ASau: but still, the main obstacle is the lack of time 12:30:46 onetom: I know. 12:31:02 onetom: I also have too little time. 12:31:06 ASau: and im only experienced in pascal fully :( 12:31:07 yet 12:31:24 We can use pascal. :) 12:31:34 id rather try 2 conquer smaller problems 12:31:46 but pascal is not fun @ all ;) 12:32:14 eg, im gonna work 4 some mins on my ppm processor 12:32:41 I think it's a great task for Forth 12:33:04 Task is not for Forth. 12:33:11 Task is for you, Herk. 12:33:16 :) 12:33:34 I mean, I think Forth is the tool for this job 12:34:01 This task requires you know programming well enough. 12:35:07 And programming includes tasks of path finding in graph and many other algorythmic skills. 12:37:03 Yes :). 12:37:44 you need to be a good programmer. and you need a language or framework or something that has the basic capabilities that you need. 12:38:09 I see the next problems (for me) in using Forth: 12:38:26 1. I'm not under Linux. 12:38:50 I know Forth that has no linux equiv. 12:38:59 ASau: What OS? 12:39:04 DOS 12:39:07 LOL 12:39:08 why??? 12:39:12 get linux 12:39:14 dosonly.net 12:39:20 why DOS? 12:39:36 The same as "Why Forth?" 12:39:38 get a real shell... get linux 12:39:48 do you use a shell? 12:39:55 I can't imagine how anyone can deal with a dos prompt 12:40:02 I used to use one 12:40:04 I see no advantages of Linux. 12:40:06 then I discovered shells 12:40:24 Do you know about Volkov? 12:40:32 ASau: DOS is a crappy copy of a UNIX shell 12:40:35 Linux is a UNIX shell 12:40:42 no 12:40:45 does anyone here have an ftp server online ? 12:41:06 I440r: What for? 12:41:07 I do 12:41:10 ASau: sure 12:41:22 ASau: ok good 12:41:26 Forth internals have changed a lot since I last got heavy into forth. Is there a document(s) reviewing the differences in commonly used systems and why one would chose one over another? 12:41:26 ASau: probably most ppl on earth has used VC ;) 12:41:28 ASau: as long as you arent using command.com - LOL 12:41:32 if i dcc you the new isforth i can then ssh to my clss.net account and ftp it to there for release 12:41:50 linux is much better I can assure you 12:41:59 proteusguy: study work done by chuck and jeff fox 12:42:08 but I am ignorant of VC 12:42:29 ianni, onetom: Sometimes I'm sitting under Command prompt. 12:42:33 command.com is a joke to try to get work done in 12:42:36 CrowKilr: ptrs? 12:42:39 it's *pathetic* 12:42:46 proteusguy: www.ultratechnology.com 12:42:51 listen to the videos 12:42:55 read 12:42:58 try to do a dir/s and ctrl-c in DOS 12:43:07 and make a sandwich so you'll have something to do while you wait. 12:43:14 command.com + doskey + teco + sed + forth. 12:43:15 shit. i cant connect to the account :( i cant release this 12:43:20 Videos eh? Haven't seen them. I've been to the site but didn't find any architectural docs? 12:43:22 ASau: get linux :) 12:43:33 i dont know my login on teh account, its fully automated by ssh keys or something 12:43:44 i can send it to anyone who is interested in it tho 12:43:48 sed+awk+perl+bash+tail+tr+bc+gzip+tar+............................................................................ 12:43:48 For example, are dictionaries still implemented the same? 12:44:05 proteusguy: read about machineforth a little, colorforth a lot, aha even more 12:44:41 perl -> NUL 12:44:50 bash -> NUL 12:44:55 tail -> NUL 12:44:57 zsh 12:44:58 proteus: dictionaries are implemented however the implementor implements them. there is a lot of variation nowadays.. 12:44:58 onetom: what is VC? 12:45:00 bc -> NUL 12:45:12 ASau: What about find :) 12:45:15 im trying to build the best dictionary possible 12:45:16 you don't have that :) 12:45:22 find is god 12:45:39 basically I don't see how you can live with a cheap unix shell imitation when the Real Thing is free! 12:45:41 dir /s | find "..." 12:45:49 it will all be source, thats sure, the rest is unsure at all 12:45:49 ASau: yuck. MS DOS dir.com ? 12:45:56 *horrible* 12:46:04 how do you take it? :D 12:46:10 who wants 1.09b ? 12:46:15 ASau: do you happen to have a favourite small (not necessarily DPMI) DOS extender? 12:46:19 I do 12:46:27 I used 4dos 12:46:37 It was nice. tab completion. 12:46:50 ianni: linux got a lot of crap too, multiuser crap in particular, dont need that for a workstation 12:46:51 XeF4: command.com + doskey + teco + sed + forth + asm + C. 12:47:04 ianni: use bzip2 instead of gzip 12:47:12 gzip's more standard 12:47:15 XeF4: + MY 2 HANDS, LEFT and RIGHT :))) 12:47:23 ASau: nono, DOS extender as in a protected mode system for DOS 12:47:28 gzip -d XeF4: I'm a real man. :) 12:47:46 command.com and doskey... man, get out of the 1980's! 12:47:47 :) 12:47:49 I see no reason to use it. 12:47:56 XeF4: + MY 2 HANDS, LEFT and RIGHT :))) 12:47:58 lol :) 12:48:01 asau try tar xivf foo.tar.bz2 12:48:17 oo gnutar does bz2? 12:48:31 hmh 12:48:47 it does in debian :) 12:48:49 Didn't measure bzip2's compression. 12:49:03 but i cant get tar civf to create a tar'd bzip, it just creates a tar 12:49:03 gzip is not better than HA. 12:49:16 tar xziv will extract from a tar.bz2 tho 12:50:30 Well. You all are sitting under bloat OS that uses fast CPU and much of HD space. 12:50:59 I'm sitting under little OS, that uses small amount of HD 12:51:11 and doesn't require fast CPU. 12:51:21 :p 12:53:03 I can live pretty well within 3 floppies. 12:53:15 How many floppies do YOU need? 12:53:30 my computer doesn't have a floppy drive :) 12:53:46 or any other kind of removable media (stupid Apple computer...) :( 12:54:01 tathi: You're sitting under Mac. 12:54:12 no 12:54:20 linux system I built 12:54:27 I don't think Linux is useful on Apple's. 12:54:33 Hmm. 12:54:38 works just fine 12:54:41 A strange thing 12:54:49 What for? 12:55:00 think I got my system down to about 700 MB 12:55:20 And Mac BSD X? 12:55:29 about 250 of which seems to be gcc :) 12:55:50 I've had linux on this computer since before Mac came out with OS X 12:55:55 didn't see any reason to switch 12:55:56 gcc takes 250 MB??? :-[ -] 12:56:25 that may be source and all the intermediate build stuff...I don't remember exactly 12:56:44 deltree/y gcc*.* > NUL 12:56:52 +250 MB free. 12:56:57 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc2-login48.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 12:57:23 hi tcn 12:57:30 u want 109.b ? 12:57:49 tcn: http://icfpcontest.cse.ogi.edu/task.html ? 12:57:51 --- quit: proteusguy ("Client Exiting") 12:57:54 i cant log into the clss account rite now so i cant officially release it :) 12:57:58 Good evening! 12:58:30 hey 12:58:44 did this just get released? 12:58:59 yes 12:59:06 cept i cant upload it to the release site because i cant log in :P 12:59:31 tathi: Hmm. May be. 12:59:34 no the contest 12:59:46 ianni: an hour ago 12:59:48 oh heh 12:59:57 wow 13:00:06 * ianni ponders the problem 13:00:10 tathi: I don't believe in the compiler of more than 20 MB. 13:00:19 damn client server too 13:00:58 ASau: well, I'll check when I get a chance 13:01:12 Well. I don't believe in OS with weight of >20 MB. 13:01:13 I think it's bigger than 20 though 13:01:43 right on, asau :) 13:02:03 I don't believe in an OS whose sources I can't exhaustively review in a working week.. 13:02:08 tcn: What d'you think of a contest? 13:02:23 i'm still reading the protocol 13:02:48 XeF4: What OS d'you use? 13:02:53 there is not a standard one letter command for telling tar to compress with bzip2. you have to use --bzip2 or find out what the letter is on your system. 13:03:11 on our bsd box it was -Y, and on this computer it's -j 13:03:42 AS: for actual work? msdos,linux,amigaos, but I don't "believe" in any of them.. 13:03:55 :) 13:04:14 Herk: Write your own OS! :) 13:04:20 how about just pipe thru bzip2 13:04:41 tcn: They want a short written form. 13:05:03 tcn: As "tar cfz". 13:05:44 ASau: I will write my own OS eventually, unless someone else writes one that's just right (which tathi might be doing) 13:06:08 OS X may be more than 20 MB, but it's pretty and fast 13:06:11 so I don't care 13:06:13 tar -cjf ack.tar.bz2 ack works for me (Linux) 13:06:51 hm.. on fbsd 4.0 it was tar ycf 13:07:01 ASau: I already blow the money on a large, fast computer. so long as it works well and the computer I have, I don't care about size 13:07:17 what's VC? 13:07:55 The Volkov Commander, v.4.0 13:08:04 tcn: yeah, it's not standardized. If I remember correctly it's against POSIX to have the one letter it originally had. 13:08:20 ASau: oh. never heard of it. 13:08:31 Hmm. 13:08:51 Like a Norton Commander, but better. 13:09:17 It supercedes NC 3, but is less than 64K 13:10:01 asau: heh, these contest robots are crap.. they reboot if bumped 13:10:37 tcn: That's the rule of the game. :( 13:11:32 If you have Midnight Commander, tell me its size. 13:11:45 tcn: it doesn't kill your executable. it's just that you don't get a turn.- 13:11:55 yeah 13:12:01 well, this sounds like fun 13:12:16 whose computer does it run on? 13:12:21 yeah, kind of wish I was going to be near a computer this weekend :) 13:12:22 not i 13:12:24 tcn: You're able to sink in a water. :) 13:12:50 tcn: 1.5GHz P4 with Redhat 7.0 13:12:58 thought 7.3? 13:13:11 7.x anyway, judges computer of course. 13:13:17 ok, good 13:13:31 and it's this weekend? 13:14:11 tcn: Are you going to take part in? 13:14:28 sure 13:14:55 What language do you choose? 13:15:39 C 13:16:40 hmm.. does the "lightning division" have a different task? 13:17:02 afaik, they just have to do it in 24 instead of 72 hrs 13:17:48 but who can prove it? :) 13:18:24 I think time is measured by submission arrival. 13:18:30 heh.. i'd like to see someone use Postscript 13:18:57 oh i see.. so if I get it in by noon tomorrow, i'm in the lightning division 13:19:14 not bloody likely, since i'm going dancing 13:19:18 tcn: What about normal Markov's algorythms? 13:20:06 a test server will be available.. 13:20:07 Or Prolog? 13:20:29 never heard of normal markov's :) 13:21:03 anyway, i'm using C, all by myself :) 13:21:41 rules: \special1 char -> [\special2] [char] [\special2] 13:22:01 only one \spacial2 in right side 13:22:14 may be \special1 == \special2 13:23:01 rules are looked from the start. 13:23:23 the first rule matched is applied 13:23:23 man, i can't believe they're allowing 100MB programs. Mine might be 100k between the source, executable, intermediate files & notes :) 13:24:03 then --- from the very beginning. 13:24:17 tcn: It is ICFP. 13:24:25 FP are very massive. 13:24:52 You can write an expression that does too much to fit in 100 KB 13:25:38 5a5a Petabyte 13:26:16 hehe.. so it's rigged in favor of FP's, and i'll go win it with a nonfunctional program ;) 13:26:37 actually C is sorta functional 13:26:47 tcn: I don't think so. But, good luck. 13:27:07 tcn: Do you participate in TUNES? 13:27:47 not lately 13:28:32 I don't believe TUNES-er telling such a nonsense. 13:28:51 "C is sorta functional" 13:30:57 it implements functions, of the mathematical variety. it's just not purely FP 13:38:00 Asm implements functions of mathematical variety too. 13:38:15 Asm is a functional language, but not pure. 13:38:42 what IS a pure language 13:38:52 how can you design programs WITHOUT functions 13:38:58 its not possible 13:39:41 Pure functional language is one using no reassignment. 13:39:52 no cycles 13:39:53 it's IMPRACTICAL to write most programs using nothing but functions 13:40:13 Ha! ha! ha! 13:40:19 Read more. 13:40:41 Reading is accessible on www.tunes.org 13:41:40 Only such low-level things as device drivers is practical to write in asm. 13:41:58 Only such low-level things as simple text editors is practical to write in C. 13:42:49 this ACFP problem is pretty low level 13:42:51 In such task as ICFP does, it is impractical to use procedural language 13:43:02 such as C. 13:43:10 Hmm. 13:43:49 navigating the room is pretty low-level, but outsmarting the other robots isn't. 13:44:17 You think that weighted search (for a move) with adaptation, based on others behaviour is pretty low level? 13:44:23 hehe 13:44:43 we shall see :) 13:45:09 I predict your robots frequent deathes in water-pools. 13:45:55 Or freq. reboots after being pushed. 13:46:08 how many lives do we get ? :) 13:46:33 You'll lose in speed. 13:48:10 keep in mind, we're opponents :) 13:48:30 if we spend too much time in here we'l both lose big 13:48:46 I do not participate. 13:49:03 mm loacl vars 13:49:08 beautiful 13:49:34 ianni: locals are bad thing 13:50:00 It is ANTI-94 forth's "advantage". 13:50:16 Use stack. 13:50:40 are you judging? 13:50:51 ianni: What prog.lang. do you use? 13:50:55 gforth 13:51:05 Before gforth? 13:51:10 I am using the stack - just using local variables 13:51:25 before gforth? objective C and java 13:51:48 lol 13:52:54 ianni: Visit ultratechnology.com, read "Thoughtful programming" 13:53:02 after Jeff Fox. 13:53:28 hehe.. my nethack experience will help me in this contest :) 13:53:51 I read this before 13:53:57 Or better, read the sources of gforth and try to change someting. 13:54:18 why 13:54:32 Or even better: rewrite gforth in asm, using no macro capabilities. 13:54:43 that's what isforth is, asau 13:54:48 See fig-forth realization. 13:55:01 ASau: easy there! ianni is very new to forth (two days?) 13:55:08 yeah. lol 13:55:11 1 day really 13:55:12 * XeF4 dives into his bunker before I440r notices isforth being compared to gforth 13:55:15 tcn: Has isforth locals? 13:55:21 Ok, Chuck said don't use locals 13:55:24 that's good enough for me 13:55:29 asau: i guess not 13:55:48 tcn: Don't know why? ;) 13:55:53 but locals are just an extension of using the return stack 13:56:06 why.. nethack? 13:56:21 tcn: locals allow you to do an ugly hack instead of factoring your code properly 13:56:22 why...no locals? 13:56:39 i440r doesn't like gforth, ans, etc.. 13:56:46 Herkamire: but that ugly hack unfortunately works faster on many processors 13:57:06 Xef: Don't think so. 13:57:10 XeF4: I doubt it 13:57:33 tcn: I don't like gforth and ans either 13:57:39 it's a good place to start though. 13:57:44 locals are faster because stack shuffling will always be a complete waste of time! 13:57:44 Have you got bench's? 13:58:05 a lot of forthers know it, so if you have questions. and it's documented. (not super well, but it's documented.) 13:58:17 F83 would be better 13:58:48 there shouldn't be much stack shuffling 13:59:52 using locals offsets in memory to pass CONSTANT ONLY information is great, the rest is a waste of time 14:00:27 CrowKilr: That're VAR's not locals. 14:00:59 * CrowKilr doesnt use the ANSI forth vocabulary at all sorry 14:01:31 * ASau does not use ANSI forth at all 14:01:46 ;) 14:02:05 hrm looking for modulo in gforth 14:02:08 whats common? 14:02:14 lol MOD nm 14:02:53 oh yeah.. and there's /MOD and /* 14:02:59 i mean */ 14:03:14 What's /MOD? 14:03:22 gives you the dividend? 14:03:29 (int devide) 14:03:31 divide 14:03:38 my /mod is machine code.. :P 14:03:56 ianni: /MOD ( a b -- aMODb a/b ) 14:04:09 ah 14:04:19 ianni: great, what is it? 14:04:20 would be cool if you could put comments in for the code words 14:04:33 ianni: how fast is it? 14:04:33 it's like 10 lines of hex, CrowKilr 14:04:42 how many bytes 14:04:42 fuck if I know, it's gforth :) 14:04:53 160 14:05:04 heh 14:05:07 i think 14:05:24 160 bytes for a 4-5 byte primitive? 14:05:26 LOLO 14:05:29 see inpuj.net/~ian/code 14:05:36 it's emulated machine code 14:05:38 not real.. 14:05:42 it's not really machine code I guess 14:05:46 it's just, not in forth :) 14:06:06 oops its there now 14:06:14 i440r: what is your size for a divide operation? 14:06:25 lets compare thing here straight 14:06:26 mind you this is portable probably 14:06:26 ;ppp 14:06:33 whatever it is 14:06:37 tsssss, invalid argument ;p 14:06:46 mh? 14:07:05 portability of an ABSTRACTION means nothing concretely 14:07:25 good assembly code, thoughtful code can outperform this by a magnitude 14:07:33 and forth is about that, magnitudes 14:07:48 Main CM advice: Write in real, not in abstract. 14:07:57 so 160 bytes to get a dividion result 14:08:00 beurk 14:08:01 lol 14:08:16 hehhe.. sneaky, they defined North as down for this contest :) 14:08:36 the assembly instruction is like 4 or 5 bytes longs 14:08:48 plus the overhead 14:09:02 if its small then you have something fast, easy isnt? 14:09:20 or tell me if im wrong, cause i think im right ;ppp 14:09:43 If I can learn forth here 14:09:49 I can code real forths that use real machine code. 14:09:50 :) 14:09:59 Crow: 2 bytes on i386, btw 14:10:47 ' MOD NFA ' / CFA - . 14:10:49 10 OK 14:11:01 10 bytes for / in my Forth. 14:11:56 ianni: the stuff in gforth is PPC machine code -- I've hand disassembled some of it 14:12:35 tathi: PPC doesn't have DIV-code? 14:12:54 10 byte is lot better than 160 14:12:57 ASau: it does have div. No MOD though 14:13:04 div word [si] , add si,2 (4 bytes) 14:13:19 really annoying sometimes 14:13:41 xef4: thanks for looking up ;p 14:13:49 tathi: I don't understand why 160... 14:14:13 ASau: me neither -- I'm building gforth so I can look... 14:14:20 no mod? that's bizarre :) Or do you subtract..? 14:14:35 yeah, divide, multiply, subtract 14:14:57 Hmm. 14:14:59 CF 14:15:05 pop bx 14:15:09 pop dx 14:15:11 pop ax 14:15:18 ... 14:15:20 div 14:15:33 ...div bx of course 14:15:56 With control of 0-division -- 10 bytes 14:16:31 control of zero division? 14:17:18 --- quit: XeF4 ("pois") 14:17:34 I'm seeing 13 instructions for /MOD 14:17:59 so 52 bytes 14:18:15 is this 16 bytes? 14:18:15 370C: 82 BE 00 04 3D 3F 00 01 - 91 21 02 88 7F D3 F3 78 ....=?...!.....x 14:18:18 right? 14:18:53 Ah! Understood! 14:19:05 i'm off to work on this problem.. hehe .. bye all 14:19:10 : / /MOD SWAP DROP ; 14:19:39 DOCOL SLMOD SWAP DROP SEMIS 14:19:44 Total: 10 bytes 14:21:19 CODE U/ 14:21:36 Others are high-level. 14:22:23 hmm, gforth is weird... 14:22:37 great this is the first step in creating our forth, we discussed one of the first important matter all togheter ;pp 14:23:25 the only "big" instruction I have in my vm is the */, its 8 bytes I think 14:23:36 Does anyone know what DIV on x86 returns in case of 0-divisor? 14:23:52 an interrupt ;p no i dont know 14:24:01 hmmm maybe in the docs 14:24:06 i dont have them they are on anither hd 14:24:28 the intel docs, the seocnd file under the idiv operation or dfiv whatever 14:25:04 you get a divide fault (int 0) 14:25:08 If an overflow occurs U/ must return -1 quotient and remainder. 14:28:11 ianni: this is a great place to learn forth. you can ask us questions, and mess with gforth, and pretty soon you'll be writing your own forth and bitching about gforth like the rest of us ;) 14:29:42 ianni: What OS d'you use? 14:30:07 --- quit: tcn ("Leaving") 14:31:32 CrowKilr: on the size issue, keep in mind that PPC has constant (32-bit) instruction length, so it's kind of hard to stay real small... :( 14:35:36 Mac OS X 14:36:07 I need a project to work on 14:40:33 Rewrite Microsoft Office in Forth? 14:40:59 Or netscape? 14:41:48 LOL 14:41:52 Ok. I'm on it. 14:41:55 ianni: most of us have trouble thinking small (in case you hadn't noticed) 14:41:57 Sweet. 14:42:31 tathi: i didnt know that 14:42:50 but all the way i was talking realtive to the machine i thaught gforth was running on 14:43:23 i want to learn programming for PPC! 14:43:46 but before I need a good forth 14:44:01 i wont learn assembler all over again i will have fun testing it in Forth 14:44:02 ;pp 14:44:32 like trying some bizarre constants instructions at every line or so 14:44:36 or just from the editor 14:44:55 like the feature of temporarly decompressing a .zip to read whats inside 14:45:39 the source would exist and runt, so the "command history" feature can be more like "source history feature 14:45:55 yeah, I want to do some of that kind of stuff with my colorForth 14:46:10 lot funnier than READINg about the asm 14:46:18 lot funnier to read and try it imediately 14:46:23 immediately ;p 14:46:27 :) 14:46:56 i thaught of a system, tell me your impressions, ill try t be as clear as im able to be 14:47:04 go for it 14:48:12 I will use a compiler that can only compile 128 different references ("call subroutine" operation) by program 14:48:26 and let the system define words in a looping matter 14:48:31 like having a endless stack 14:48:46 so if you define a 129th word, you can't use the first one anymore? 14:48:47 but for compiled code and for dictionary 14:48:51 yes 14:48:55 something like that 14:48:58 k 14:49:31 sounds small, but the overall memory footprint of the program may be a magnitude less 14:49:33 who knows 14:49:36 maybe jeff fox ;p 14:49:41 but he doesnt come here 14:49:45 anymore 14:50:14 I seem to remember this channel got pretty dead for a while right around when he was here... 14:50:27 eh now its bigger and funnier than ever 14:50:31 to discuss here 14:50:31 yup yup 14:50:53 Hi all. Anyone familiar with AVR chips? 14:50:53 --- join: OrngeTide (orange@65.19.141.250) joined #forth 14:51:09 wooo. hi 14:51:12 I can't read the EEPROM :-/ 14:51:26 Robert, i never used atmel stuff but my hardware engineer friend keeps trying to get me to use them. :P 14:51:28 oh. :( 14:51:43 i love atmel hardware 14:51:54 i like them better than pics 14:51:58 Don't know why, but when I try to execute the read EEPROM command, it hangs. 14:52:04 CrowKilr: Me too. 14:52:15 maybe its protected 14:52:29 if the fuse was enbaled , but i think its only in parallel programming 14:52:36 ??!? 14:52:50 dont know why it hangs 14:53:01 maybe a part defect if its old 14:54:07 Nope. 14:54:09 It's new 14:55:20 Hmmm... 14:55:35 I can read the EEPROM correctly using the programmer software. 14:58:17 that why i dont use eeprom 14:58:22 not very reliable 14:58:28 on atmel parts, at least on mine 14:58:41 at90s1200 at 8 mhz 14:58:55 at90s1200-12pi 14:59:12 12MHz total and industrial temp renage 14:59:21 range* 14:59:35 anyway fprth on those would be great 15:00:28 :) 15:00:48 the atmega series can reprogram themselves, and the system ona chip part look fantastic 15:00:57 avr + fpga 15:01:05 virtex are better though 15:01:07 but pricier 15:01:27 powerpc + major FPGA 15:05:56 there are special forth instructions for the AVR 15:06:18 like preincrement and after decrement fetches I think 15:09:20 Yeah 15:09:23 Hrmm.. 15:09:50 I want my EEPROM to work *sob* 15:17:30 Forth as a forth markup language would prove to the world that its worthy 15:18:15 only thing needed, a forth virtual machine, specifically made for 15:18:23 converting from a format to another 15:18:45 this virtual hardware is quite powerful, everybody would say that 15:18:55 and the industry, by a mean of a big company 15:18:56 --- join: galexand (galexand@42-pool9.ras10.ncral.tii-dial.net) joined #forth 15:19:08 will steal that "concept" and patent it 15:19:27 i think its already patneted 15:19:29 lol 15:19:32 iirc its great 15:19:58 its the perfect weapon against the PDF, .doc, .html, .mp3, all the files format will be dead 15:20:07 heh 15:20:08 they will disolve 15:20:10 into forth 15:20:27 forth is a solvent ;p it embraces the solution 15:20:39 in sanskrit 15:20:41 its called 15:21:06 samadhi 15:21:22 it comes from a zen book 15:21:28 lol 15:22:05 Forth: Zen of the digital world 15:22:07 lol 15:22:21 it would prove that zen is the only religion that is worth practising ;p 15:22:39 hihihi quick joke no mean to offense here 15:22:53 hahaha 15:23:17 man i want to live in the busch of africa 15:23:21 hahah bush? 15:23:52 as in "living in the bush", yes 15:28:11 I think I've found the error. 15:28:37 Seems like the AVR freezes when I use "rcall"... Hmm... wonder if stack pointer is fucked up. 15:30:58 I'M A FUCKING IDIOT! 15:31:08 Trying to using the stack without initializing SP :-/ 15:32:09 * Robert is happy :))) 15:32:11 Now it works. 15:32:26 * Robert pats himself. 15:32:34 * tathi cheers Robert :) 15:32:43 Thanks. 15:32:44 hooray!! 15:33:02 Well, now to the hard part ;-) 15:37:45 lice in the busch of africa? 15:37:49 live rather LOL 15:37:59 we know where your mind is... cheap american beer! 15:39:23 okay when your boss makes a big deal about not being upset at you for coming into work two hours late because you drank too much the night before, what does that really mean 15:40:50 galexand: lol 15:40:58 * ianni thinks 15:41:07 he wants you to do something 15:41:13 HEHE 15:41:22 i think he wants to make sure i don't move away from the state 15:41:39 --- join: mslicker (~mark@64.27.199.31) joined #forth 15:41:43 like i think i honestly work in an office where we get paid less and have as a reward absolutely no pressure whatsoever. 15:42:06 this is more than just my boss being a nice guy, this is capitalism. ;) 15:43:24 I want more money :) 15:43:31 everyone who does what I do gets paid lots more. 15:43:33 but 15:43:40 they took me under their wing, I have no colelge exp. 15:43:50 and i like it here decently. so I guess that's basically free money. 15:44:02 heh but once you've had a job for like a year college doesn't matter anymore 15:44:07 well 15:44:28 all my job experiences (4-5 years) was in like ASP/VBscript, "light C" "want to learn java" ad I'm a java engineer :) 15:44:35 so I got hired, learned java, then started working 15:44:40 so I owe them I feel :) 15:44:53 cause now my resume is about 10x longer 15:44:56 after 2 years 15:45:26 ive learned c, java/j2ee, objc, and oracle since then 15:45:33 :) 15:45:36 soon: forth :) 15:46:05 --- quit: Herkamire ("evening all, I'm off for the weekend. later,") 15:46:13 I wonder if i should learn ASM to help me learn forth, but I figure it's all the same. 15:46:23 I'm grokking it fine so far jsut got to get used to it. 15:48:32 hahaha kaii and zaurus are two almost identical competing linux pdas and they keep on making OS improvements. 15:48:34 nite 15:49:02 peace 15:51:52 --- quit: tathi ("later all...") 15:58:28 --- quit: mslicker ("[x]chat") 16:00:31 sorry i was away 16:00:58 i never used avr parts with sram 16:00:59 --- join: thin (thin@h24-64-175-61.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 16:01:17 nooo! i was disconnected :/ 16:01:46 ianni: forth cant be ;earned, why? because its not even made 16:01:53 forth isnt fully defined yet 16:02:01 avr? 16:02:08 forth aims for virtual hardware, forth must be the simplest and fastest possible 16:02:21 i was talking back to robert 16:02:38 sorry i didnt specified it 16:03:04 i still want to know what avr is :) 16:05:32 AVR = amtel's pic thingie 16:07:46 what's the status with ICFP's contest? 16:08:31 what the hell... 16:08:38 it looks more like an algorithmic task 16:08:40 than a language one 16:11:51 i440r: did you release isforth ? 16:13:16 is icfp right now? did it just start? 16:16:04 yes 16:16:08 it started awhile ago 16:16:11 4 hours ago 16:16:19 68 hours to go! :D 16:16:33 i just got back from work 16:50:11 wow this icfp challenge sounds like a lot of fun. 16:51:16 yeah but it doesn't really seem very language dependant.. 16:51:25 the algorithm is prolly more important than the lang? 16:51:52 well the language you develop the algorithm will affect your thinking 16:52:10 also i think in this case it's not as simple as developing one algorithm from basic knowledge, i think the system is complicated enough you need to develop several and have play offs to decide your entry. 16:52:15 so you'll need rapid development. 16:53:44 yeah 16:53:56 the protocol seems very forth friendly, i'm happy about that :) 16:54:35 "Any malformed command will kill the robot. 16:54:37 wee! ;P 16:55:32 --- join: mslicker (~mark@64.27.199.31) joined #forth 16:56:25 hi mslicker :) 16:56:31 what do you think of the icfp task? 16:56:36 hey thin 16:56:43 and how does your colorforth port to linux go? :) 16:57:05 I think itt works, but I don't know about networking. 16:57:17 Too dificult for me, I think. 16:57:58 I don't know how to program sockets. 16:58:01 they run it on their server.. 16:58:12 i440r knows sockets, maybe he could download his knowledge to you ;P 16:58:18 isforth uses only syscalls 16:58:24 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again!") 16:58:35 and he's figured out sockets with syscalls 16:58:38 bah 16:59:02 Hmm. It seems I440r escaped... 16:59:06 he'll be back 16:59:13 I hope. 16:59:33 it's pretty hopeless without that. 16:59:44 hmmmm 16:59:52 as forther we must know these things 17:00:25 it would be pretty neat, though, 17:00:38 too cook up a custum language for this problem. 17:00:48 i got the pdf how to interface a realtek 17:00:53 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 17:00:58 well lets code the first part, lets not worry about communicating to the server 17:01:01 that's figurable 17:01:17 i'm more concerned about the ai 17:01:22 or the algorithm or whatever 17:02:10 mslicker: there are 3 packages out there that let you use stdin/out for interfacing with sockets 17:02:23 depends on the media 17:02:30 ethernet got frames 17:02:46 ppp use serial with a preamble and all the stuff 17:02:53 complciated, but lot of source 17:02:55 CrowKilr: no stream oriented connection, for icfp. 17:03:03 no, 17:03:11 kk 17:03:31 mslicker: check out tcpclient at http://cr.yp.to/ucspi-tcp.html 17:03:32 i was thinking in real life lol 17:06:56 thin: I think that might work. 17:08:47 great :) 17:20:29 w2 orngetide 17:20:30 oops 17:20:47 mslicker: the location of other robots on the map are only transmitted once? we're blind after that? :( 17:21:14 do you have ears? or a radar? 17:21:21 none 17:21:26 you're given a map to start of with 17:21:28 I think updates provide new informatiton. 17:21:39 #2 W 17:21:40 and the initial location of other robots 17:21:44 k so they can clock and repeat the simulation 17:21:55 robot 2 went west 17:22:55 oh nevermind 17:22:58 yeah 17:23:01 server's reply 17:23:56 thin: do you want to join my team? 17:24:23 mslicker: sure 17:24:34 great! 17:24:41 let's call the team "Thoughtful Programmers Group" ;) 17:24:55 sounds good :) 17:25:02 you know, ultratechnology's "thoughtful programming" essay 17:25:04 :D 17:26:02 can I send my project files? 17:26:11 mslicker: lots of people on #forth will participate in varying degrees, they just don't know it yet ;) 17:26:15 mslicker: sure.. 17:26:26 i was typing up some pseudocode 17:26:30 to get started on thinking about the problem 17:26:33 great ;p 17:28:34 got to go pick up a friend, be back in 45 mins 17:28:47 ok 17:45:15 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 17:57:13 Hey! ICFPers! 17:57:22 Have I missed smth? 17:57:43 Have you got sockets i/o? 17:57:58 we found a work around. 17:58:05 tcpclient 17:58:11 Oh! Congrat's 17:58:25 provides sockets as std i/o 17:58:37 Have you started a prj? 17:59:28 yes 17:59:33 I'm ready to share with ideas. 17:59:59 great, 18:00:28 I'm thinking first how to build this. 18:00:48 I see changes arrived. 18:00:52 Let me read... 18:01:01 * ASau reads refinements. 18:01:14 you guys working on the compo? 18:01:27 when is the deadline? 18:01:39 monday at noon. 18:01:46 cool I'll try to help maybe this weekend 18:01:52 great. 18:02:00 I dont know shit for forth, but I could just be able to help 18:02:03 lol 18:02:08 :) 18:02:08 im off -- good luck! 18:10:51 --- join: KOHTPA (ASau@158.250.48.197) joined #forth 18:10:51 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:11:07 * KOHTPA is back 18:11:15 --- nick: KOHTPA -> ASau 18:11:20 Well. 18:11:44 I see we know our position and all other positions. 18:11:51 In each moment. 18:12:03 right. 18:12:05 So, we see our enemies. 18:12:25 That is why we should navigate close to them. 18:12:34 but you don't know quite when they will move and when you move. 18:12:35 But not very close. 18:12:50 Well. 18:13:10 At first, we 'd determine the way we want to go. 18:13:20 To spend less money. 18:13:32 AIR? 18:14:08 yes you want to spend 1 if you are not in proximity. 18:14:20 yes 18:14:50 So at first we should determine the shortest ways between bases. 18:15:14 Of course, counting walls and water. 18:15:53 The shortest way in graph search... 18:17:33 we need a way to specify what we want to do, and the route planer will figure it out. 18:18:16 We want to chose those packages, that are light enough, 18:18:33 and require the easiest way to deliver. 18:19:21 yes chose lightest/shortest first 18:22:23 Oh, no! 18:22:46 The task is to _pick_ packages found on the desk. 18:23:00 It changes everything. 18:23:24 We 'd invent an adaptive method to decide. 18:23:59 packages can occur anywhere I think. 18:24:19 Not under water :) 18:24:32 :) 18:24:58 So we start. 18:26:04 We should wander in the direction of low wall&water density. 18:26:42 I think we want to go for the bases, don't we? 18:26:44 Mark (or pick) packages run into during the walk. 18:31:25 Let us decide who is coding? 18:32:10 ok 18:32:27 can I send you my files? 18:32:38 You have a compiler -- you code. Agreed? 18:32:55 Of course I can read your source. 18:32:57 OK? 18:33:09 ok 18:34:07 --- quit: sif (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:42:38 ASau? 18:44:34 --- join: Xuz (~Eliahn@bgp01132867bgs.ypeast01.mi.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:45:28 hey mslicker 18:45:28 Here. 18:45:29 i'm back 18:45:35 i was thinking about the problem 18:45:41 thin: Join us. 18:45:42 we could code up the server 18:45:48 and the client back-end 18:45:51 and the client front-end 18:46:01 and the client front-end will be relatively easy to implement 18:46:07 so people can implement various algorithms 18:46:11 and test them.. 18:46:23 thin: let me send you the source 18:46:24 the key is to make it easy to implement various algorithms 18:46:26 and test them out 18:46:35 indeed 18:46:50 asau: i'm already in.. i named it "Thoughtful Programmers Group" ;) 18:47:07 xuz: hi, long time no see :) 18:47:28 xuz: we're discussing the icfp contest http://icfpcontest.cse.ogi.edu/ 18:48:38 got steps 1 to 3, 6 lines of code. 18:48:58 of initialization 18:49:04 hmm 18:49:07 cool :) 18:50:35 mslicker: send my NUMBER-s 18:50:40 mslicker: sent my NUMBER-s 18:51:45 Hiya :) 18:51:46 mslicker: sent my system's glossary for comments 18:51:55 I assume thin used to be futhin? 18:54:36 ASau: you think I should code it forth? 18:56:52 I was just going to do it in assembler. 18:57:00 MS: ? 18:57:32 It is ready to run forth code. 18:58:08 i/o is not a problem for this. 18:58:12 colorForth is quite striped down. 18:58:23 why code this in asm 18:59:17 I think it would be messy dealing with linux syscalls in colorForth 18:59:25 xuz: correct 19:00:05 MS: Write a low-levels and go on higher. 19:00:05 ? 19:00:33 Have you got a separate Voc-List for your sys? 19:00:34 yeah, I wanted a low level language suited to this problem. 19:01:16 Well, we use no blocks, we use stdin/out. 19:01:35 yes 19:01:52 So we need KEY -> EXPECT and EMIT -> TYPE . etc. 19:01:57 I'll just read into the dicionary space. 19:02:20 Well, EXPECT and TYPE. 19:02:38 They i/o into dic. space. 19:02:46 right now, I have words like INT RL EL 19:03:04 INT parses an integer 19:03:29 RL reads a line 19:03:34 RL EL -- read/emit line ? 19:03:53 EL eat line 19:04:14 for consuming the rest of a line. 19:04:27 aha. 19:04:38 I have PR 19:04:51 or maybe it should be PW 19:05:04 prints a word 19:05:18 SPACE prints a space 19:05:24 We can send out the whole line. 19:05:35 right, 19:05:52 also I don't have to deal with this mess in colorForth. 19:06:02 not really a mess, 19:06:06 Just make it in internal buff. and send it out. 19:06:13 but easier in assembler. 19:06:17 right 19:06:20 Well. 19:08:38 maybe I could find a lower level of abstaction. 19:08:54 just so I don't have to deal with the syscalls. 19:09:05 Hmm. Do you want to code everything in asm? 19:09:25 no, majority in colorForth 19:09:46 You have to code RL and PR. 19:10:06 Well, it's 6.10 am. 19:10:16 yeah. 19:10:24 I am to go. See you later on the net. 19:10:47 ok 19:11:21 --- part: ASau left #forth 19:27:34 --- join: galexande (galexand@129-pool9.ras10.ncral.tii-dial.net) joined #forth 19:27:34 --- quit: galexand (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:27:44 --- nick: galexande -> galexand 19:31:42 --- join: Miciah_ (~Didle@NBN-TNT2-pool1-221.coastalnet.com) joined #forth 19:37:14 --- quit: mslicker ("[x]chat") 19:44:48 --- quit: Miciah (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:44:49 --- nick: Miciah_ -> Miciah 20:05:44 --- quit: Xuz ("ircII EPIC4-1.1.5 -- Are we there yet?") 20:14:52 --- quit: galexand ("etc") 20:24:31 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:16:30 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 21:23:49 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust171.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 21:46:50 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again!") 21:59:13 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust171.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 22:08:30 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 22:13:06 --- join: I440r (mark4@pool-63.52.217.106.ipls.grid.net) joined #forth 22:27:41 --- join: ASau (ASau@158.250.48.197) joined #forth 22:27:49 I'm back. 22:28:12 wb :) 22:28:25 Hmm. Where's mslicker? 22:28:35 dunno 22:44:44 How do you think... 22:45:16 How much time will it take to tune linux to work through unknown MS LAN? 22:45:37 Any suggestions? 22:45:48 I mean to speed up. 22:48:24 erm no idea heh 22:49:07 Linuxoids! Hey, where are you? 22:52:53 who ? 22:53:19 Are you a linuxoid? 22:56:51 not realy heh - but im working on it :) 22:58:46 How did you tune networking? 22:59:22 i didnt 22:59:35 debian did heh 23:00:06 Hmm. 23:00:22 New MS? Or new Apple? 23:03:48 ? 23:03:54 debian gnu linux on a pc 23:06:36 --- join: KOHTPA (ASau@158.250.48.197) joined #forth 23:07:00 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:07:08 --- nick: KOHTPA -> ASau 23:17:06 i440r: yeah, you might wanna teach mslicker a little bit about programming sockets since you probably know a bunch about it (for linux..) cause the icfp contest requires interfacing with the server via sockets.. and mslicker is porting colorforth to linux.. 23:24:01 :) 23:24:19 im not an expert but i know SOME :) 23:30:11 Well. I'm starting slack. 23:30:16 Reboot. 23:30:19 --- quit: ASau () 23:34:05 Good morning, #forth! 23:34:15 Darn, I was so stupid yesterday 23:34:40 I was looking for an EEPROM hardware failure, and I had forgot to initlalize the stack pointer :-( 23:35:50 robert: you are implementing the forth architecture on your AVR ? 23:37:36 Not yet, I'm still designing it. Was playing with the AVR, to learn about it. 23:38:09 robert: well earlier you said something about implementing a stack machine and THEN implementing a forth for it.. 23:38:17 Yup. 23:38:21 i just wanted to point out you can skip that step 23:38:26 and just implement a forth machine 23:38:27 That's what will be done, eventually. 23:38:40 Skip what step? 23:38:47 you don't need to implement a forth 23:38:57 What should I implement, then? 23:39:00 just implement the forth machine 23:39:07 the forth architecture.. 23:39:29 Uhmm.. and then? How should it look up words, compile and so on? 23:39:49 i.e instead of stack machine THEN a forth compiler just implement something like machineforth.. 23:40:13 Machineforth is just 32 very primitive Forth words, right? 23:40:16 good question, i don't know how machineforth looks up words 23:40:19 27 words 23:40:24 See? 23:40:43 well implement machineforth :P 23:40:43 It has to have I/O, compiler etc. 23:40:47 machineforth = l33t 23:40:56 no compiler 23:41:00 i/o is there.. 23:41:05 what are you talking about ? 23:41:06 How? 23:41:09 chip has i/o 23:41:17 Heh. 23:41:32 you can implement the dictionary using machineforth instructions 23:41:42 probably 23:41:51 you don't need a "compiler" 23:41:56 machineforth is the compiler isn't it? :P 23:42:02 but implement the dictionary 23:42:04 No. 23:42:04 i dunno 23:42:05 Heh. 23:42:10 fine 23:42:12 dictionary = compiler 23:42:21 hmm.. 23:42:28 A compiler = looks up a word and outputs the address. 23:42:29 i really should learn more about machineforth 23:42:32 (Basically :) 23:43:14 I'm thinking about something a little bit more complex than machineforth. And, NO 5-bit instructions :-) 23:43:18 Oh, btw... 23:43:27 Do you know how machineforth pushes values to the stack? 23:43:34 why would you want anything more complex than machineforth ?? 23:43:39 I sae the instructions were just 5 bits long. 23:43:49 machineforth = simplest, smallest, and _fastest_ forth implementation 23:43:51 To make it big and bloated!@$#! 23:44:08 Machineforth is what Chuck's forth CPUs run, right? 23:44:11 fastest forth implementation even if you implement it on some other architecture i'd bet ;P 23:44:16 yeah 23:44:23 forthchips use machineforth 23:44:32 I'm not so sure, I want as much as possible implemented as low-level assembly code. 23:44:33 altho i think mup21 chips might've used cmforth 23:44:46 Too many high-level definitions will slow the thing down. 23:44:55 chuck went from cmforth to sourcless programming to machineforth to colorforth 23:45:26 I'm not Chuck :) 23:45:28 robert: nahhh, not if the stuff is actually the forthchip's assem 23:45:52 And, this is a microcontroller _interpreting_ the tokenized forth code. 23:46:05 Not a fast chip with 3 data busses. 23:46:12 what? you aren't going to implement machineforth? :( 23:46:37 "interpreting tokenized forth code" != any kind of forth architecture implemented :( 23:46:47 ah, u r here 23:46:51 Hm? 23:47:04 That is, forth primitives. 23:47:25 Such as + - ?branch etc. 23:47:42 About the same as machineforth. 23:47:44 Anyway... 23:47:53 I'm wondering, how does machineforth do "lit"? 23:47:54 ummm 23:48:07 Pushing an (8-bit?) value to the stack. 23:49:19 SUPER COOL QUOTE THAT I'VE INVENTED: 23:49:38 "Coding in Forth is about changing your perspective of the problem until it is a trivial problem" -- thin 23:50:45 OK. 23:51:13 Code a forth program that proves that a^n+b^n=c^n, for integer numbers of a,b,c and n, n > 2. 23:51:19 Uhm. 23:51:38 That the equation has no solutions* 23:51:47 Make THAT a trivial problem :) 23:51:51 So... 23:51:59 Would anyone mind answering my question? :) 23:52:38 thin: nice, concise rephrasing of what chuck tought us 23:53:09 Hehe. 23:53:13 thin: im gonna translate it and nail it on the top of the wiki 23:53:13 onetom: Do you know? 23:53:17 --- join: sbk_ (~kbs@dsl-65-184-98-221.telocity.com) joined #forth 23:53:17 robert: first off, it doesn't really apply to mathematical problems.. second of all, nobody gives a shit about mathematical problems ;) 23:53:27 thin: Sure we do! 23:53:33 onetom: ya better include the "-- thin" ;) 23:53:36 thin: Number theory is better than heroin! 23:53:44 Hi sbk_ 23:53:47 Robert: hehe ;p 23:53:52 hi robert 23:54:02 robert: your some weird crack addict math freak ;P 23:54:11 robert: check the ultratechnology sites .. 23:54:17 for the machineforth stuff 23:54:21 http://www.ultratechnology.com/f21cpu.html#cpu 23:54:24 there is lit 23:54:26 # 23:54:28 ummm 23:54:31 let me get you another link 23:54:34 a faq for mup21 23:55:17 http://d-1-200.dhcp-149-159.indiana.edu/misc/p21faq.html 23:55:21 thin: Robert is joking! 23:55:23 hopefully it's a little helpful 23:55:27 OK... I checked colorforth.com/X18.html 23:55:37 onetom: About what? 23:55:45 onetom: Number theory or machineforth? 23:55:58 Robert: about a^n... 23:56:03 Oh, hehe. 23:56:06 Yes, I were. 23:56:10 Robert: what should b proved? 23:56:14 Even thin could see that, right? 23:56:17 Robert: its not a tautologie 23:56:23 yes i could 23:56:24 onetom: That it has no integer solutions. 23:56:30 i am omniscient! 23:56:32 "tautologie"? 23:56:36 all-powerful! all-knowing! 23:56:57 oh! and i can argue philosophy ;P 23:56:59 Robert: always true logical expression/statemnt 23:57:20 Robert: thats tautológia 23:57:26 --- quit: sbk_ ("Leaving") 23:57:47 tautology probably 23:57:54 y instead of ie 23:58:03 Hrm.. I just wanted to know how to push a number in machineforth. 23:58:09 rarely does "ie" exist in english words 23:58:14 at the end that is 23:58:26 robert: it puts it on the stack! 23:58:33 thin: "die" :D 23:58:42 robert: jeez, it's not rocket science 23:58:42 Hm? 23:58:43 2 23:58:54 machineforth code: 2 23:58:57 boom! 23:58:59 it's on the stack! 23:59:02 amaaaaazing! 23:59:12 there's no "mov ax, 2" 23:59:13 it's just 23:59:13 2 23:59:16 And...ehm...how do I know 2 isn't an instruction? 23:59:18 "2" 23:59:25 it knows, it's magical! 23:59:29 How are these numbers stored anyway? 23:59:36 on the stack... 23:59:37 In a whole word? 23:59:40 ... 23:59:46 there's a stack on the forthchip y'know.. 23:59:47 In the program, of course. 23:59:55 Stop trolling, dear. 23:59:59 we're talking about forthchips here 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.08.30