00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.08.29 00:56:23 --- join: Speuler (~l@pD9502533.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 01:12:11 --- quit: Speuler (SendQ exceeded) 01:12:50 --- join: Speuler (~l@pD9502533.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 01:48:46 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 01:48:46 --- mode: bear.openprojects.net set +o ChanServ 01:48:46 --- mode: ChanServ set +l 83 02:46:43 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 02:54:47 hi all 02:55:30 how should i mdo this: 02:56:01 after bad word, ( FIND and NUMBER ) failed 02:56:14 i want to try this word as 02:56:18 1) shell command 02:56:26 2) filename for include 03:48:50 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:07:50 --- join: serg (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 04:07:51 --- quit: Serg_penguin (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:08:04 --- nick: serg -> Serg_penguin 04:08:14 re hi 04:10:27 --- join: cleverdra (julianf@0-1pool37-34.nas2.florence1.sc.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 04:13:08 hi 04:13:12 few mins... 04:16:06 hello Serg 04:17:46 i'm back 04:18:59 yesterday i digged out y parser, with its stupid error - non-return from INCLUDE 04:19:34 OK? 04:19:48 none, cant't fix.... 04:20:33 it doesn't parse INCLUDEd file, dumps all despite of { } and err's after its end 04:21:07 errors with what? 04:21:46 maybe, unknown word - it was too damn late night to remember 04:22:01 i turned on for a few mins while tea was heating.... 04:22:47 maybe, it even returns but chokes right after 04:23:16 but i have } after INCLUDE file.ext !!! 04:24:14 and second bad error - it does'nt parse included file, all { } go through 04:25:21 Could you put this online? 04:25:58 no, its at home. only if i'll remember it.... 04:26:17 : } 04:27:22 can't remember, only write anew..... 04:29:38 : } begin ascii { word count vtype ( vectored TYPE ) 04:30:07 nl? 0= eof? or 0= while 04:30:15 query repeat ; 04:30:26 something like this 04:32:45 : nl? tib# @ >in @ = ; ( end of line ? ) 04:34:00 --- quit: Fractal (bear.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 04:34:37 is where an online FORTH ? i could try... 04:35:05 Not that I know of. 04:35:54 --- join: Fractal (cwt@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth 04:36:04 dunno want waste traffic for re-download 04:39:35 what do u do now - trying ? 04:39:45 --- join: Fractal_ (wdqmpesk@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth 04:39:45 hello Fractal 04:40:03 Sup? 04:40:53 n/mind, to you i said only 'hello' 04:40:59 --- quit: Fractal (bear.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 04:42:30 Um. And I asked you sup? 04:44:33 what means sup ? 04:44:56 What's up? How's it going? 04:45:06 --- nick: Fractal_ -> Fractal 04:46:11 it goes to all burning hells, with 13 devils on its tail :) 04:46:32 Harsh... :) 04:46:43 i'm in cursive mood now, mean i curse everything goes by.... 04:46:56 Fair enough. 04:48:14 i caught hevy cold in amid of heat, my progs are gltching, choking and blowing roof.... 04:48:36 to 'blow one's roof' is Ru acronym for go mad' 04:48:42 'go mad' 04:49:15 and my kbd is jammI!!!ng :) 04:50:11 what do u write now ? 04:50:33 Nah, I'm just relaxing. 04:51:17 i plan to make optical joystick... 04:51:43 Oh... 05:02:45 --- join: sif (~sifforth@ip68-9-70-120.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 05:02:45 Type sif: (or /msg sif to play in private) 05:27:32 zz 06:20:36 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:22:58 --- join: tathi (~josh@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 06:39:04 --- quit: Serg_penguin (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:59:08 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 06:59:20 re hi... 07:26:03 --- join: I440r (mark4@pool-63.52.217.119.ipls.grid.net) joined #forth 07:33:23 --- quit: I440r ("bbl") 07:46:48 --- quit: Serg_penguin (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:50:19 --- join: ianni (ian@inpuj.net) joined #forth 07:50:26 re 07:50:48 hi 07:51:14 I was going to set up oracle, but I think I'll take up forth instead 07:51:40 what's a good generic unix forth 07:51:57 for a beginner to play with 07:52:15 try gforth maybe 07:52:25 http://www.gnu.org/directory/gforth.html probably 07:52:45 cool.. 07:53:28 or isforth (http://isforth.clss.net), which a guy on this channel is writing 07:53:43 yeah I saw him talking about it on efnet 07:54:18 I think it's far enough along to use it for lots of stuff 07:54:28 im looking for some code to play with now.. 07:54:29 haven't tried it for a while as I have a PowerPC machine 07:54:35 to get a feel 07:54:39 I got a ppc too 07:54:44 Mac OS X 07:54:56 anything else worth trying on that 07:55:11 I don't know, I don't keep track of all the forths out there 07:55:33 let me see if I can find a page that lists a bunch of them 07:56:33 i just want to find some actual code i can start compiling :D 07:56:35 atm 07:56:47 http://www.forth.org/compilers.html 07:56:48 ah 07:57:11 cool - http://www.cbel.com/forth_programming_language/ 07:57:23 forth.sf.net for a more comprehensive list 07:59:04 nice 08:01:02 this channel will probably be more active later on...other people probably have some good examples they could point you to 08:01:39 anyway, I have to go to a meeting now...ttyl 08:01:48 bye 08:06:53 ianni: for linux/*nix: there is also bigforth and TILE.. I hear they are interesting for the beginner.. bigforth apparently has an X11 interface and is slightly more advanced than gforth 08:07:05 however, i've only used gforth :P 08:07:35 most people just use gforth or something.. it's the more "popular" one even tho it's not even that great 08:08:38 yeh im using that 08:08:43 i found a tutorial, it's helpful. 08:08:49 thin - not that great compared to what? Or what is it lacking? 08:09:01 god, this code is pretty 08:09:03 so poetic 08:09:04 :D 08:11:08 cleverdra: no built in editor, documentation that lacks in some areas, like interfacing with libraries 08:11:15 hmm, some other things, but i forget 08:11:31 ianni: what code are you looking at? :) 08:11:41 just generic code 08:11:45 asics 08:11:51 forth code ? 08:12:05 thin - yes, some of the miscellaneous stuff in the distribution is undocumented -- it took me a bit to understand lib.fs 08:12:27 also, it's not a "pure" forth ;P 08:12:31 like isforth is ;P 08:12:39 thin - however, 'no built in editor'? It has a block editor, if that's what you mean. I have Emacs ;-) 08:12:56 thin - bah. It has ALLOCATE/FREE 08:13:11 that makes it impure and too ANS-like ? 08:13:57 thin - no, that means that it has easy access to dynamic memory. 08:15:21 should a forth os have dynamic memory stuff? should it have object oriented stuff? should it have floating point stuff? some of these things kind of go against the forth philosophy heh 08:16:07 i'm talking about a general purpose os 08:16:17 like windows & linux 08:16:32 take the best of windows, the best of linux, and the best of forth 08:16:34 and stir them up 08:16:36 and viola! 08:16:57 Linux has none of those that you mention, thin. Libc certainly has them. 08:17:08 also, the best of windows? What's that? 08:17:09 but what about the question of OO, dynamic memory? 08:17:30 cleverdra: windows is much more standardized, has a nicer gui, and is more userfriendly than linux 08:17:51 Goodness gracious, *more standardized*? 08:18:16 i'm talking about the user's perspective 08:19:19 Oh, that's an entirely different perspective. That's also wrong: traditional unix programs are better about 'user-visible standardization' 08:19:20 in linux, you have a myriad of different things done from different people.. if there are any problems, you have to be somewhat familiar console, the linux setup, /etc/ config files, so on 08:19:40 and you have to deal with the crappiest help system ever: man files :) 08:19:46 When you say 'the linux setup', I hear nothing at all. 08:19:55 thin - also 'info' files, and /usr/doc collections. 08:20:06 thin - and, don't forget, an extensive community. 08:20:07 man files are definitely not written for newbies :P 08:20:47 so erm 08:20:47 Anyway, if you think these things of Windows and Linux I don't much care to argue with you. What was the point of your "forth os" question? 08:20:52 how do I run these .fs files? :) 08:20:58 there's no Makefile anywhere.. 08:21:15 and i wouldnt expect there'd be a gforth binary yet.. 08:21:35 ianni - Makefile? What are you talking about? If you're trying to build gforth, read the INSTALL. It has 'configure' script. 08:22:19 I ran that 08:22:31 If you ran that, and it was successful, you have a Makefile 08:22:44 oh, guess i missed something 08:22:44 ahhh. 08:22:47 host type :) 08:28:22 --- quit: ianni (Excess Flood) 08:28:23 --- join: ianni (ian@inpuj.net) joined #forth 08:38:51 damnit, how can I not compile gforth.. haha 08:39:33 ahh found some stuff to help compile 08:42:08 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 08:54:03 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote closed the connection) 08:54:38 yay, running forth code for the first time 09:02:12 --- quit: clog (^C) 09:02:12 --- log: stopped forth/02.08.29 09:02:27 --- log: started forth/02.08.29 09:02:27 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 09:02:27 --- topic: 'Forth: Chuck Moore's Language. ANS Forth is a different language of the same name. | http://www.msmisp.com/futuretest/Forth's_Dilemma.htm | x86 Linux Forth coded in asm - http://isforth.clss.net | home of forth - http://www.ultratechnology.com' 09:02:27 --- topic: set by futhin on [Tue Aug 27 10:01:45 2002] 09:02:27 --- names: list (clog ianni tathi sif Fractal cleverdra @ChanServ onetom Robert thin OrngeTide) 09:05:18 --- join: ASau (ASau@158.250.48.197) joined #forth 09:06:31 Hello! 09:11:07 hi 09:13:10 (koi8:) äÏÂÒÙÊ ×ÅÞÅÒ! 09:13:26 cleverdra: you there? 09:13:45 A strange question. 09:13:53 cleverdra: the question was: should a general purpose forth os use dyanmic memory? oo? 09:14:17 cleverdra: the stuff about linux and windows wasn't part of the question. there was no "?" next to them 09:14:33 Why ones refused to continue tree organized vocabulary of FIG-Forth in ANS? 09:15:06 thin: Why don't use blocks? 09:15:35 We may assign that negative numbers are dynamic memory. 09:16:20 i need a project in forth now.. 09:16:27 Even more, block can be swapped easily 09:16:43 ianni: Write a forth shell. 09:17:05 asau: no, i'm prolly gonna use files, not blocks 09:17:06 ianni: We have asm shell (ash), C shell (csh)... 09:17:31 ianni: Why not to use Forth shell (4sh?)? 09:17:38 jesus 09:17:47 thin: Why files? 09:17:48 I just started forth today :D 09:17:54 and i'm not too familiar with shells 09:18:00 but i guess i dont see why not 09:18:18 ianni: You have much to do. 09:18:57 ianni: You are to design text-line-parameter passing syntax... 09:19:21 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 09:19:31 hi 09:19:34 ianni:... pipe-line, redirection syntax and so on. 09:19:49 Serg: Äîáðûé âå÷åð! 09:21:14 asau: because files are easier to use.. it's to be a general purpose os like windows or linux 09:21:30 maybe there won't be filesystems 09:21:36 maybe everything will be objects or something.. 09:22:45 ASau: yeah, I think I need something simpler :) 09:23:29 draw a pyramid of asterisks 09:23:36 * 09:23:39 *** 09:23:41 too useless :) 09:23:43 ***** 09:23:44 heh 09:23:59 ill think of something one of these days. 09:24:04 hmmm 09:24:07 the webserver I found piqued my interest. 09:24:19 maybe I could get oracle communication going. that would be really cool. 09:24:35 maybe I could go about writing some C coed to talk to OCI and then talk to forth wit hthe C somehow. 09:24:46 is that easily done? 09:24:47 share lib? 09:24:53 shared 09:24:59 can't forth talk to OCI directly? 09:25:12 if you know what the interface is like.. 09:25:18 probably simpler too 09:26:01 how are libraries handled in forth? does every possible library need to exist in the forth dictionary or is there a way to only have certain ones loaded up? 09:26:24 what kind of libraries are you talking about? 09:26:40 well anything beyond the CORE words. 09:26:49 like if i wrote a SQL library for forth and wanted to sell it. 09:26:58 yeah, it gets loaded up when it's needed 09:27:00 like 09:27:04 how would i get that library into people's hands. 09:27:07 your code starts with 09:27:14 include sql.fs 09:27:23 and all the rest of the code 09:27:27 thin, but that would be to include the source for the library. 09:27:39 oh, so you just want to provide the ojbect? 09:27:42 i want to include a binary. is there a way for binaries to be linked in? 09:27:44 correct. 09:27:52 hmm, probably 09:28:04 probably could have some special word 09:28:07 hmm. 09:28:25 i couldn't figure it out looking at ANS forth. and I'm in the middle of writing my own forth and i don't really see a way to do it. but i must be missing something. 09:28:28 linkin sql.fs 09:28:32 no 09:28:33 hrm. 09:28:39 you have to code in linkin 09:28:47 linkin would have to look thru the binary itself 09:28:47 er 09:28:50 you'd have to have an object file format of some sort which would be a pre-compiled dictionary. 09:28:52 linkin sql.o 09:29:04 yeah, you would have to invent the whole thing 09:29:22 hrm. well i think i'll do that for my forth then. seems like a useful feature for a forth OS. 09:29:27 maybe the sql.o would look like this internally: 09:29:32 : someword ; 09:29:39 : someword2 ; 09:29:43 and that code would be in binary 09:30:15 thin, actually i could just do it as a normal forth source but have all the entries full of the hex values 09:30:23 that is the hex values for the compiled code. 09:31:03 and unresolved symbols could have the actual symbols in the code. and it would just use the normal forth processor. it would make for large object files but i wouldn't have to write a parser. 09:31:32 --- join: KOHTPA (ASau@158.250.48.197) joined #forth 09:32:40 what if the source is compiled 1:1 ? :P 09:32:53 thin, yah. that's what i'm thinking. 09:33:23 have you read eric raymond's "bazaar and cathedral" essay? 09:33:24 like : FOO ; 09:33:30 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 09:33:40 and also "the magic cauldron"? 09:33:52 one of the messages 09:33:53 is that 09:33:59 thin, yes. there is a response to that essay by Bruce Sterling. it's much more accurate. :) 09:34:04 you can't really sell software 09:34:09 --- nick: KOHTPA -> ASau 09:34:26 yeah i read bruce sterling's speech too 09:34:30 thin, oh i'm not selling the software. but i should have provisions in my OS to allow people to sell software. 09:34:59 i know you're not.. 09:35:04 and just giving binaries is a simple way to lock a customer into using you exclusively for support. which is what really makes the money. 09:35:21 but maybe instead of providing provision to allow people to sell software, why not provide provisions to allow people to sell services? :P 09:35:45 if you could load the libraries in a lang though that would be cool 09:35:51 thin, hrm. because i couldn't come up with any provisions. :) but i should think about it, seems like a decent idea. 09:36:02 ianni, yah. 09:36:06 re OT, ian from efnet 09:36:08 hehe 09:36:11 ianni: HEY! 09:36:16 --- part: Serg_penguin left #forth 09:36:16 zup 09:36:23 realized this is a BIT more hoppin than efnet 09:36:40 OrngeTide: what kind of os do you want to code? a general purpose one? competitive with windows/linux ? 09:37:26 thin, a forth desktop environment with realtime extensions. I would also like to use some of ideas in Jef Raskin's "Humane Interface" 09:38:27 hmm, is the "humane interface" available online? 09:38:42 i guess so 09:38:43 nevermind 09:39:08 thin, well it's a book by Jef Raskin (designer of the Macintosh UI and ultimiately the Macintosh). But there is a project on sourceforge that is an example of his idea for a new interface. 09:39:18 hmmm 09:39:25 I actually worked with Jef for a couple months. he's an interesting fellow. 09:39:27 OT: sounds like quite an undertaking 09:39:37 ianni, *shrug*. a forth OS should be pretty easy. 09:39:43 true 09:39:46 i just have to con people into writing all the drivers. 09:39:51 hah right 09:40:24 cuz i'm certainly not going to do anything beyond my own NIC and vesa framebuffer. (my forth is purely graphical using postscript for it's API) 09:40:54 OrngeTide: i think it's vital to keep the forthos as simple as possible at every level of abstraction (but it will get more and more complex at each level of abstraction).. 09:41:05 it'll still be less complex than windows tho 09:41:10 even at a higher abstraction than windows 09:41:20 thin, oh of course. 09:41:27 which is why i'm using postscript. :) 09:42:02 have you heard me talk about postscript and forth graphics script ? 09:42:13 no. i haven't. 09:42:31 aww.. you should've been paying attention to #forth yesterday :P 09:42:41 anyways, i am familiar with postscript 09:42:49 and i want to create something similar to postscript for forth 09:42:59 it won't have the static typing or whatever 09:43:08 but it'll have the same graphics vocabulary 09:43:09 my forth has static typing :) 09:43:10 moveto 09:43:13 rlineto 09:43:21 yeah i know, your forth is evil or something 09:43:36 i like static typing it helps me avoid stack mistakes :) 09:43:38 i'm not sure that a forth os needs static typing (not at the lower levels..) 09:43:59 how can you make stack mistakes if you factor it up properly? :P 09:44:00 i dunno 09:44:20 --- quit: Robert (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:44:24 it doesn't *need* it to operate. but it can benefit from it. and plus you get the bonus that you can use + for integers, double-ints, and floats :) 09:44:26 --- join: Robert (~Robert@robost86.tsps1.freenet6.net) joined #forth 09:44:59 thin, you can make a stack mistake within your factored word and it will trickle down to your other words. 09:45:10 ? 09:45:14 a static typing system is actually pretty thin and easy to do. and has no overhead for compile time. 09:45:29 a word is only going to have a maximum of 2 parameters passed to it 09:45:42 and is only going to manipulate a maximum of 3 items on the stack 09:45:51 : F 2 4 ; : D . cr ; : G F + D ; 09:45:55 there is some buggy code. 09:45:57 it's going to be pretty self contained.. 09:46:14 buggy how ? 09:46:16 a static typing system would see the problem instantly. 09:46:22 it displays 6 09:46:28 if you execute g 09:46:33 oops. i ment to do something else. :) 09:46:36 heh :P 09:46:45 sif: : :) ." SAY HELLO TO [FU]THIN!" cr ; :) 09:46:47 Robert: SAY HELLO TO [FU]THIN! 09:46:59 Hello, thin :) 09:47:24 s" futhin" 2 /string type 09:47:25 hi rob_ert :P 09:47:58 people try to tell me that i have to poke values directly into the machine like chuck. but i want langauge not for an electronic gadget but i want something to express algorithms. i think of forth words as legos and i can just stick them together. that's the advantage of a stack, you can just string stuff together. 09:48:13 absolutely 09:48:13 but i've always disliked stuff like +D and +F 09:48:18 implicit data passing 09:48:28 i haven't even used +D or +F yet 09:48:30 and i hate it when i do + instead of +D and end up with a leak 09:48:33 does chuck even use them? 09:48:35 :P 09:48:39 OrngeTide: Forth is like Lego, we losers can't use them. 09:48:49 robert, hrm? 09:48:52 robert: where are the losers? 09:48:54 * cleverdra realizes that OrngeTide means D+ F+ , and wonders where the others come from. 09:48:55 Just kidding :) 09:48:56 * Robert <--- 09:49:09 well you gotta forget your non-lego paradigms! 09:49:10 :P 09:49:12 * Robert isn't a very good forth coder. 09:49:47 cleverdra: oh. sorry i've been programming in my friends forth. it's +D and +F .. it's anti ANS Forth i think. 09:50:03 dont worry, it takes some time to develop good factoring skills 09:50:18 thin: I won't live that long :P 09:50:41 robert: hey, it prolly takes a few more months ;P 09:50:42 nah. it should take you a good month of seriously using forth before your factoring skills start to develop. 09:50:59 yeah, but you have to _try_ 09:51:05 when you code forth 09:51:20 I do, I do... 09:51:34 lies :P 09:51:40 Well, I'll try to write a Forth for my UltraSuperVerySecret project. 09:51:43 Pfff... 09:51:44 you just pretend you are coding pascal ;P 09:52:03 the way i started was by only using 1 line for everything i defined. (of course if you do stuff like create or case or something that doesn't count:) 09:52:28 OrngeTide - seems more anti-RPN, but OK. 09:52:38 thin: Pfff... 09:52:46 thin: How SHOULD I code then? 09:53:16 : play init game-loop finish ; 09:53:17 cleverdra: huh? how so? i still use a stack and pop stuff off it. 09:53:34 robert: except you don't need to initialize the variables in the snake game 09:53:54 thin: Hm? 09:54:27 at the begining when you define the variables, that's when you can initialize them 09:54:33 There's another thing I'm wondering... 09:55:07 If I factor out the main loop of a game, how could I break that main loop (or any other loop) from outside that word? 09:55:15 I mean.. 09:55:25 I factor out the _contents_ of the loop. 09:55:27 Like: 09:55:30 begin 09:55:35 blah bleh bluh 09:55:46 some-stuff repeat 09:56:01 How can I make bleh break that loop? 09:56:17 rdrop 09:56:20 ;P 09:56:22 or unloop 09:56:23 or exit 09:56:28 What's unloop? 09:56:30 they do different things tho 09:56:34 rdrop seems very unclean. 09:56:40 the only problem i have with factoring is that i have a hard time coming up with names for everything. 09:56:42 it's NOT unclean 09:56:45 Well, exit wouldn't be sufficient in many situations. 09:56:47 it's the most elegant way 09:56:50 I use it when I can. 09:56:51 Hehe. 09:56:56 : exit unloop rdrop ; 09:57:04 Ehehe. 09:57:10 What's "unloop"? 09:57:11 robert: the return stack is MEANT to be used 09:57:16 Bah ;) 09:57:21 it IS clean 09:57:33 it seems hackish at first, because you are only used to lamer languages 09:59:04 Robert - unloop is typically RDROP RDROP 09:59:24 cleverdra: i thought EXIT called unloop and then rdropped.. 09:59:25 hmm 09:59:37 robert: 09:59:40 thin - err, no. Perhaps you are thinking of LEAVE 10:00:01 (but LEAVE wouldn't do that either) 10:00:13 : exit rdrop ; works 10:00:14 :bword rdrop ; 10:00:15 So, er... : exit rdrop rdrop rdrop ; ? 10:00:16 : aword bword ; 10:00:18 Hmm... 10:00:33 this is all assuming that the size of the units on the return stack is one cell, which it isn't necessarily. 10:00:36 robert: rdrop basically brings you back to aword 10:00:47 thin - no, that's wrong. 10:01:37 : someword true? if rdrop then ; 10:01:37 : caller someword blah ; 10:01:37 if true, someword exits back to caller.. blah gets executed 10:02:13 No, that's wrong. 10:02:28 cleverdra: How does this work then, please explain. 10:02:50 : a caller blarf ; ( to use thin's CALLER ) 10:03:30 RDROP in someword destroys the address that points to BLAH, which is where someword would normally be jumping to upon exit. 10:03:47 What's next on the return stack is the address to BLARF, which CALLER put on the return stack when it was entered. 10:04:02 (well, CALLER didn't do this, the 'inner interpreter' did) 10:04:10 robert: who cares about rdrop, exit, unloop? you can easily test that at a forth by typing up a few test words ;P 10:04:25 The inner interpreter might be the SUB instruction. 10:05:21 sif: : someword if rdrop then 1 . ; : caller someword 2 . ; : a caller 3 . ; a 10:05:22 cleverdra: Word not found: rdrop 10:05:30 * cleverdra growls. 10:05:48 sif: : rdrop postpone r> postpone drop ; immediate : someword if rdrop then 1 . ; : caller someword 2 . ; : a caller 3 . ; a 10:05:49 cleverdra: 1 2 3 10:06:01 oopsy. 10:06:07 sif: : rdrop postpone r> postpone drop ; immediate : someword if rdrop then 1 . ; : caller someword 2 . ; : a caller 3 . ; true a 10:06:08 cleverdra: 1 2 3 10:06:34 Whose Forth is sif, again? 10:06:43 herkamire's 10:06:45 Herkamine? 10:06:49 Oh, yes. 10:06:59 blah. Try this in your nearest gforth instead. 10:07:16 Uhmmm... What does postpone do? 10:07:28 (assuming, again, that the elements on the return stack are 1-cell wide; the code given to sif should have either crashed or outputed '1 3') 10:08:39 Robert - it compiles the runtime semantics of immediate words and the compiletime semantics of non-immediate words. 10:09:12 heh, sif isn't forth 10:09:26 it's just some limited forth interpreter in C 10:10:00 cleverdra: So rdrop is a "macro" then? 10:10:16 --- quit: cleverdra (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:10:24 --- join: cleverdra (julianf@0-1pool37-34.nas2.florence1.sc.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 10:10:50 Robert - essentially RDROP in my code is a macro that is replaced at compile-time by R> DROP -- only R> and DROP are bound within the defnition of RDROP 10:11:46 contrast to --> : rdrop s" r> drop" evaluate ; immediate <--, where R> and DROP are bound on each execution of RDROP 10:16:06 cleverdra: so you didn't answer my previous question about the forth os.. do you think it should have dynamic memory stuff? oo stuff? :P 10:16:29 OK, thanks alot :) 10:16:29 bbl 10:18:03 i think i'm going to have to detail the requirements of the os, and break it down into its component pieces.. 10:18:18 it probably does need some sort of memory allocation 10:18:21 thin - I don't understand what you mean by OO stuff, though I understand that there have been interesting experiments with 'filesystems' built out of objects. Of course it should have dynamic memory; certain kinds of user-driven program just *need* this. 10:21:38 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 10:22:46 DeadZen: how did you install your OS ? :) 10:23:57 misphire 10:25:00 OrngeTide: have you tried out The Humane Interface ? 10:25:55 --- part: Serg_penguin left #forth 10:43:49 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 11:00:46 --- join: Miciah (~Didle@NBN-TNT2-pool1-152.coastalnet.com) joined #forth 11:02:31 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 11:19:25 I think a simple colorforth is appropriate for FML 11:19:46 except I haven't figured out how it should handle text :) :) 11:19:52 --- part: Serg_penguin left #forth 11:21:56 ooOOoo :) the FML scripts could request it's required "include files" by their [MD5] hash. 11:22:40 this way the client could cache include files, and be asured of using the correct one. it would save redownloading the same include file even across hosts 11:33:58 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 11:43:11 orion is free if you're a developer developing a j2ee app 11:43:19 misfire 11:47:15 Hi Herkamire :) 11:51:09 thin: Why don't use BLOCKs as a dynamic memory, I wonder? 12:00:03 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 12:05:27 hello :) 12:05:52 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 12:10:51 :) 12:11:32 --- quit: Robert (Remote closed the connection) 12:11:37 --- join: Robert (~Robert@robost86.tsps1.freenet6.net) joined #forth 12:13:00 --- part: ASau left #forth 12:18:57 --- quit: XeF4 ("leaving") 12:21:00 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 12:27:25 --- quit: cleverdra ("Leaving") 12:50:55 ASu/join squeak 12:50:56 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:55:07 --- quit: XeF4 (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 12:55:07 --- quit: onetom (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 12:55:07 --- quit: Herkamire (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 12:55:07 --- quit: Robert (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 12:55:07 --- quit: Miciah (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 12:55:08 --- quit: sif (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 12:55:08 --- quit: Fractal (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 12:55:08 --- quit: thin (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 12:55:08 --- quit: OrngeTide (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 12:55:08 --- quit: ChanServ (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 13:11:15 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 13:11:15 --- join: Miciah (~Didle@NBN-TNT2-pool1-152.coastalnet.com) joined #forth 13:11:15 --- join: Robert (~Robert@robost86.tsps1.freenet6.net) joined #forth 13:11:15 --- join: onetom (~root@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 13:11:15 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 13:11:15 --- join: OrngeTide (orange@65.19.141.250) joined #forth 13:11:15 --- join: thin (~thin@h24-64-175-61.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 13:11:15 --- join: Fractal (wdqmpesk@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth 13:11:15 --- join: sif (~sifforth@ip68-9-70-120.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 13:11:15 --- mode: card.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 13:20:29 --- quit: XeF4 (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 13:20:29 --- quit: onetom (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 13:21:11 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 13:21:11 --- join: onetom (~root@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 13:23:33 --- quit: Miciah (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 13:23:33 --- quit: Robert (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 13:23:51 --- join: Robert (~Robert@robost86.tsps1.freenet6.net) joined #forth 13:23:51 --- join: Miciah (~Didle@NBN-TNT2-pool1-152.coastalnet.com) joined #forth 13:28:12 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 13:29:16 --- quit: Robert (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 13:29:16 --- quit: Miciah (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 13:29:17 --- quit: XeF4 (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 13:29:17 --- quit: onetom (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 13:29:17 --- quit: Herkamire (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 13:29:21 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 13:29:21 --- join: Miciah (~Didle@NBN-TNT2-pool1-152.coastalnet.com) joined #forth 13:29:21 --- join: Robert (~Robert@robost86.tsps1.freenet6.net) joined #forth 13:29:21 --- join: onetom (~root@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 13:29:21 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 13:34:09 --- join: CrowKiller (Forther@Ottawa-HSE-ppp3654412.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 13:52:50 --- join: Speuler (~l@p3EE29484.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 13:56:54 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc2-login8.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 13:58:46 how do I clear the stack in gforth 13:59:18 clearstack 14:05:36 thanks 14:05:59 man writing code in forth is fun :) 14:06:05 the process 14:06:10 i just gotta learn to think in stacks .. 14:08:52 it never really gets easy 14:10:07 *nod* 14:10:16 i find it wuite easy, if you dont work with more than 4 items at a time 14:10:21 quite* 14:10:23 theres ways around it though 14:10:28 eg good design 14:10:48 such a high learning curve, yet such a low learning curve 14:10:51 =] 14:12:49 i was writing useful things in c, pascal, basic and asm, sooner than i was in forth.. and i learned forth last 14:13:45 and i still have a hard time writing substantial programs in forth.. 14:15:18 i've done games, big databases, operating systems, even forth compilers.. it's not like i'm inept 14:19:36 cool 14:19:42 I do Java and Objective C mostly ATM 14:20:23 im jsut trying to understand the ( adr -- n ) crap now 14:20:28 everything else I follow so far 14:20:29 if I build a homebrew machine, sure, i'll put Forth on it in the beginning, to get it running and work out the bugs.. but i'd use C in the long run 14:20:50 yeah? 14:20:53 why? 14:20:53 oh ( addr n -- )... that's how strings are notated a lot 14:21:01 address & length 14:21:06 no i jsut mean like undertadn thing I see it in words 14:21:13 err wtf did I just sayt 14:21:15 haha 14:21:16 tcn: do you ever use a negative string length? 14:21:21 rofl 14:21:33 xef4: not intentionally 14:22:11 ianni: that is the comment that says how many parameters the word takes, and after the -- is how many it leaves on the stack 14:24:09 gnu smalltalk is GPL 14:25:34 so "adr" is always there as the first word in that comment 14:25:35 ? 14:25:45 if so, that's confusing 14:26:00 it's not. addr means an address, i.e. a pointer 14:26:24 ianni: "(" is a word that starts a comment ending with ")" 14:26:40 ( n1 n2 -- n3 ) is a stack comment for a word that consumes 2 signed integers, returning 1 14:26:40 it's called a stack comment 14:26:43 and so-on. 14:26:48 when is something on the stack NOT an addr? 14:26:51 or whatever 14:26:58 an equivalent of a "void" word I guess? 14:27:06 oh, you were asking why i'd put Forth in my ROM.. because it's the simplest way to make it interactive, and therefore easiest to debug.. I wouldn't have to burn the ROM too many times. 14:27:32 I'd leave it on the ROM too, sorta like OpenBoot 14:27:34 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 14:28:00 ianni: the stack holds the parameters and the return values 14:28:18 well I know that much :) 14:28:33 some words don't effect the stack (they don't take parameters or have a return) such as "cr" 14:28:36 I guess I'll just accept it and grok forth (no pun intended) 14:28:46 Herkamire: yah swhat I meant by "void" 14:28:49 it would be commented like so: : cr ( -- ) 14:29:40 "emit" take one paremeter and does not return anything. it would be commented like so: : emit ( c -- ) 14:30:14 ( the "c" is a convention, hinting that emit is going to use the top of the stack as a Character) 14:34:37 so -- just represents the stack 14:34:41 or.. 14:34:42 what? 14:34:55 ok, this is making sense now 14:36:15 before -- after :) 14:38:09 awesome 14:38:10 ianni: a new 4th fighter... ;) welcome 2 our 4th commando 14:38:20 thanks 14:38:33 what is awesome? 14:38:37 tcn: retro 5 is in planning stages 14:38:42 tcn: ? 14:38:45 it's awesome that I undertand it 14:38:55 ive almost got the language down now 14:39:12 in lses than one 4th of a workday 14:39:12 :) 14:40:28 ianni: are you familliar with assembly programming? 14:40:44 on any platform 14:41:16 define familiar 14:41:26 familiar as in done actual work? no. 14:41:31 do you know assembly? 14:41:34 I read quite a bit on HLA once 14:41:35 CrowKiller: no 14:41:43 I understand the concepts 14:41:53 registers, etc... 14:41:57 basics 14:42:12 i hope for you ;p 14:42:28 CrowKiller: I understand forth though 14:43:02 I hope ;) 14:43:30 :D also wanted 2 say that 14:43:39 u hope ;) 14:46:00 crow: yeah, Retro 5 is only in the design phase.. i really need to fit together all the pieces instead of just jumping right in and coding like I did the last 4 times. 14:46:43 tcn: where r the plans? 14:46:59 on a few scraps of paper here 14:47:00 tcn: and how is it related 2 forthos? 14:47:05 it's not 14:47:17 paper?!?! jajjj :) 14:47:31 oh wait, i do have a file on my laptop 14:48:47 --- quit: Herkamire ("bye for now") 14:49:22 publish it on the web! wiki, wiki, wiki! 14:49:43 yes, OS.Notes, here we go.. It's just a simple unix-like OS without a real wall between user & kernel land.. 14:51:50 single address space, instead of loading every program at 0x80000000 14:53:04 i want to follow the unix model but handle sound, video, timing and communications better 14:54:33 it's a single user OS, not intended to replace unix SERVERS 14:55:17 and it's for hackers not lusers :) 14:55:27 yummm :) 14:55:38 tcn: like minix, then? :D 14:55:44 tho, network support would also b necessary 14:55:48 it's not message passing 14:56:16 i could ease the development too 14:56:25 s/i/it 14:56:52 damn! 14:56:56 so you're not volunteering :) 14:57:05 i would not like 2 tinker w floppies anymore 14:57:07 :)))) 14:57:23 are you the one with only 1 floppy drive for 3 computers? 14:57:52 tcn: im gonna volunteering - i hope so - just we r not talkin about this part now :) 14:58:46 no, im just the lazy 1 w lottsa hw but not much room 4 them 14:59:27 i don't really want help.. an OS needs 1 person to fit everything together not a hodgepodge like linux 14:59:43 i plan 2 read some already well written code 4 15:00:15 booting, net card driver, video driver 15:00:28 and rip the essence of them 15:00:53 that's what i do :) 15:01:03 tcn: but we also would like 2 have such an OS 15:01:08 so, plz let us help u 15:01:14 I think I've found nirvana, http://www.not-compatible.org/SOL/index.html 15:01:18 we beg ;) 15:01:41 once I have the basic OS written, i could share it.. don't want to release something half-assed though 15:03:08 tcn: but but but .... 15:03:45 then it would be like every other "new os" out there 15:04:09 "look, i wrote an OS" but completely useless 15:04:34 you should only share your best work 15:05:04 but not if you haven't written ANYTHING good :) 15:05:08 tcn++ 15:05:15 haha 15:05:22 we have no karma here 15:05:24 no wait, tcn 1 + 15:05:30 tcn 1+ 15:05:35 or 4+ 15:05:53 i just do it for the collective karma bot in the metaphysical ether 15:06:08 those are quicker versions eh? 15:06:28 yeah.. 1+ is usually the INC machine instruction 15:06:30 is there any way I can interpret machine code for a word, like, do certain hex values mean something 15:06:36 when I just get a dump of bytes 15:06:54 see 1+ for example 15:06:55 34E4: 48 00 1F 10 - H... 15:07:08 I guess like read docs on my chip or ? 15:07:16 http://tunes.org/~tcn/pub/ I have a few opcode tables there.. 15:07:33 im really liking this forth stuff 15:07:47 i had a hard time finding any OCTAL tables for the 80x86 so I wrote them the other day.. because the 80x86 is an octal chip 15:07:47 haha crazy I've been to this page, yesterday :) 15:07:57 welol im on a ppc :) 15:08:09 hahah 15:08:11 I see though. cool. 15:08:36 i couldn't tell you about the ppc.. all i know is it's 32-bit and has big & little endian modes :) 15:08:39 this is like... philosophical asm on crack 15:08:50 Heheh! 15:09:05 well, I just wanted more of a contextual answer, not a definitive one :) 15:09:09 Good...evening. 15:09:12 that serves quite well 15:09:17 Hi Robert 15:09:22 since it's a RISC i wonder if it would be tedious to write PPC assembly? 15:09:30 Does anyone know of any good AVR simulators, preferably for Linux? 15:09:31 hey bob 15:09:53 Hello, mr tcn ;) 15:09:54 i don't even know of AVR 15:10:26 * Robert knocks on proteusguy's head. 15:11:06 I want to write a virtual machine (stack based :-) for it, and then implement a Forth on top of that. 15:11:46 http://medo.fov.uni-mb.si/mapp/uTools/ 15:12:03 now what the hell is AVR? 15:12:05 The test board I'll get tomorrow has a 256kB flash card, hopefully suited for a forth dictionary :) 15:12:18 Atmel's chips. 15:12:20 could I write forth for somehting like a PIC chip? 15:12:35 Of course. 15:12:36 yup, if it's got a few Kbytes of memory 15:12:41 Check the FIG page. 15:12:47 Robert: gotcha. 15:12:49 tcn: What has? 15:12:54 the PIC 15:12:58 tcn: The AVR? 15:13:01 Oh. 15:13:12 Well, these things are usually RAM starved. 15:13:26 So, compiled Forth is usually what's used on them. 15:13:30 i think there's a big new PIC 15:13:36 Cross-compiled from another arch. 15:13:41 tcn: How big? 15:13:52 yeah, forth in ROM only needs 512 bytes or so of ROM 15:13:56 They can't run code from RAM anyway. 15:14:11 oh :) 15:14:27 That's why I'm writing a virtual machine. 15:14:45 So it can run code from the flash card, and put temporary variables and stacks in RAM. 15:15:03 I'll be getting two chips, one with 128 and one with 512 bytes of RAM. 15:15:17 what's pic's www site? 15:15:24 hm 15:15:28 www.microchip.com 15:15:30 yeah 15:15:49 FIG got links to Forth related PIC stuff. 15:16:07 Cool 15:17:53 Anyway... I'm going to implement that VM on PC too, so I can develop software (such as my Forth) in a good development environment. 15:18:08 8 binary switches isn't exactly good when it comes to coding. 15:18:13 And 8 LEDs for output, hehe. 15:18:24 However, it has got an RS232 port. 15:19:18 put in a serial bootloader with the dip switches 15:19:53 Robert: pic link on fig page? where? url? 15:20:22 onetom: Ehh.. that is, links to Forth compilers with PICs as target CPU. 15:20:29 In the "compilers" section. 15:20:34 :-) 15:20:40 Serial bootloader, hehe. 15:20:58 The problem is where to load TO. 15:21:38 i'm gonna use a serial bootloader for Retro 5 15:21:59 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 15:22:12 Well... I don't see a point in a serial bootloader, since there is nothing to load from :-) 15:22:24 Unless you want to use the serial connection as data bus. 15:22:31 Er.. 15:22:34 Nothing to load *to*. 15:22:51 umm.. from, say, my laptop running linux to my desktop running retro 15:22:57 Programs will have to be copied from the serial cable to the flash card, from where they can be executed. 15:23:04 Hehe. 15:23:15 So, what's retro all about? 15:23:23 * Robert feels he should know this. 15:23:32 how would I do something like write some forth that would print the time taken to execute something 15:23:50 so i could compare performance 15:24:08 Uh... just get the time before and after you execute a certain word. 15:24:38 nevermind. :) 15:25:14 * Robert follows ianni's advice. 15:25:17 i guess if i knew how toget the time I wouldnt have asked that 15:25:19 rob: (retro) it's a small OS i'm developing, for real hackers 15:25:55 Sounds very nice, got any page with a few lines of information? 15:26:07 Or could you describe the basic ideas of it? 15:26:11 --- quit: Kitanin ("MARKER -KITANIN- : [MORE] BLK @ DUP 0= IF ABORT THEN 1+ LOAD ; IMMEDIATE") 15:26:35 retro.tunes.org 15:27:13 ianni: gforth 0.5.0 have words for getting the time 15:28:03 i was thinking "Forth OS" but I think "simplified Unix" would be better 15:28:33 but simplified unix has been done before unix got all complicated 15:29:18 yeah, like the old unix 15:29:28 or even simpler 15:29:40 Forth UNIX? :) 15:29:47 heeeee 15:29:58 nah, you can run Forth under unix if you want 15:30:53 ianni: look (flood is comin) 15:30:55 What does it have to do with Forth then? 15:30:59 cr .( Timer support 2002.03.23 ) 15:30:59 : timer 2variable ; 15:30:59 : windup! ( d.ms timer -- ) 15:30:59 >r d>s &1000 um* ( convert to [microsec] ) 15:30:59 utime d+ r> 2! 15:30:59 ; 15:31:01 It should be pretty friendly to forth but C comes first 15:31:01 : windup+! ( d.ms timer -- ) 15:31:03 >r d>s &1000 um* ( convert to [microsec] ) 15:31:05 r@ 2@ d+ r> 2! 15:31:07 ; 15:31:09 : stopped? ( timer -- flag ) 15:31:11 2@ utime du< 15:31:14 * Robert notes he's writing Forth like christians are writing God. I'm scared. 15:31:14 ; 15:31:34 ianni: i use this stuff in gforth 4 makin timing 15:31:52 we also write Satan with a capital S... 15:32:31 Who? 15:32:34 You're a christian? 15:32:48 im christian 15:32:53 * Robert wonders how anyone can be both christian and a forther. Forth being the tool of the devil and all that... 15:32:56 christian morgenstern ;) 15:32:59 haha 15:33:19 yeah, i'm christian, not really a good one :) 15:33:35 christian = krisztián in hungarian - ithink so.. 15:33:36 onetom thanks 15:33:41 shit is still way over my head 15:33:43 heeh 15:33:50 I'm an ex-christian 15:34:10 though I believe in jesus' teachings even more after having given up christianity. ironic eh 15:34:11 heh.. i'm a bad christian for dabbling in other religions 15:34:16 X11christian ;) 15:34:20 I was an atheist before I learnt Forth, now I'm just brain-damaged. 15:34:25 jesus would have wanted you to.. so that would make you a good christian, kind of. 15:34:26 onetom: Heh. 15:34:35 Robert: loll 15:34:37 christianity marginalizes everythign jesus (apparently) stood for 15:34:57 * ianni stops as to not encite a religuous debate, and takes onetoms timer code 15:35:09 ianni: yeah.. thats right 15:35:11 well.. people do a lot of things in his name.. but if you follow his teachings, more or less, you're a real christian 15:35:55 ianni: things considered 2 b said by jesus was not too bad 15:36:10 so if I follow his moral teachings, but do not believe in his divinity, I'm a real Christian? 15:36:22 depends on your definition of christianity 15:36:25 ianni: great ideas just like the 1s behind unix 15:36:32 I think if jesus of nazareth came back today 15:36:37 ianni: but not the best @ all 15:36:47 he'd totally chew out the catholics and a lot of the christians 15:36:50 for being stupid 15:36:51 heheh 15:37:19 yeah, and for lying with another man 15:37:32 eg ;) 15:37:33 bearing false witness - as it were ") 15:37:35 :) 15:37:37 or rather woman ;) 15:37:39 o_O That's what catholics do? 15:37:46 LOL, didnt you know ? hahha 15:37:48 it suits better for me ;) 15:38:02 All of them, I suppose? 15:38:07 hee hee 15:38:08 im not gay, just my boyfriend, uknow ;) 15:38:11 hahaha 15:38:20 onetom: I beleive you. 15:38:25 haha 15:38:58 but seriously: my gf is 15:38:59 * Robert wonders how you can go from Forth to gayness in just a few lines. 15:39:35 onetom: dunno about you but in the US we've been hearing about priests raping altar boys on a daily basis 15:39:39 haha 15:39:42 Robert: 4th minded ppl can achive many thing in 1/100 code size ;)) 15:40:03 Hrm. 15:40:45 tcn: Have you had any chatolic president since Kennedy? 15:40:46 tcn: i dont deal w the news much, and i ignore religious stuff even more 15:41:04 onetom: Raping isn't religion, you know. 15:41:06 religion is the bane of spirituality 15:41:09 hehe 15:41:11 Robert: lolll 15:41:31 Robert: really... wooow, never knew ;) 15:41:46 It's funny, think how many deaths christanity and islam have caused... because of differences. When you examine them both they are exactly the same. 15:41:51 rob: nope, i think kennedy was the only catholic pres. 15:42:08 so we're basically just killing each other cause we speak different languages 15:42:30 But you get perverts into the White House anyway.... 15:42:33 well it's not FUNNY. it's ironic 15:42:49 * Robert notes that not only catholics have strange sexual habits. 15:42:54 btw, heard what they've done in Norway? 15:42:59 Robert: I want to know how yo ucome to that conclusion 15:43:04 I'd think the converse. 15:43:13 Uhm... 15:43:14 well.. clinton & kennedy were famous womanizers but does that make them perverts? 15:43:15 esepcially for "good" catholics 15:43:20 Man by nature likes sex :) 15:43:27 if he didnt, we probably would not be here. 15:43:38 Like I come to all conclusions, I just speak and later I listen to what comes out of my mouth. 15:43:42 I'm so full of shit. 15:43:43 s/probably / 15:43:45 haha 15:44:05 Robert: LOL. I respect that 15:44:06 Robert: what about Norway?? 15:44:28 yeah 15:44:29 XeF4: They've arrested 160 persons for child porn crimes. 15:44:30 yes, what about it? 15:44:32 damn 15:44:40 ah, *nod* 15:44:43 That's hell of a razzia. 15:45:30 nah, time 2 continue workin 15:45:37 ianni: try the timing! 15:45:43 Have fun :-) 15:46:00 ianni: u r under linux, aint ya? 15:46:35 ianni: then the TIME bash command could also help in profiling 4 longer running tests 15:47:08 Hmmm... how do you get the time with a millisecond accurancy? (sp?) 15:48:43 darwin. 15:48:49 oh.. the pentium & up have a timestamp counter.. 15:48:52 onetom: I'm still learning forth as I go 15:49:21 onetom: I understand all but du<, d+, d>s, um*, 2!, ... 15:49:22 heheh 15:49:36 ianni: never forget that: u r learning a specific 4th implementation 15:49:42 onetom: *nod* 15:49:53 I am trying to understand it all before I run it. 15:49:54 RDTSC (stores a 64-bit number to EAX:EDX) increments every cpu cycle 15:49:55 ianni: what resembles the ancient 4th 15:50:18 ianni: but 4th in its essence is not that 15:50:35 ok. 15:50:46 ianni: 4th is rather a processor architecture 15:50:52 right. 15:51:23 ianni: WORDS STACKS BLOCKS as chuck moore says 15:51:32 blocks? 15:51:39 ah, nevemind 15:51:42 Haha :) 15:51:47 it's one big pandora's box 15:51:48 we gonna explain it later 15:52:16 um* = ? 15:52:37 stuff he read on www.ultratechnology.com 15:52:38 unsigned mixed mul 15:52:50 tcn: ;p 15:53:03 ianni: sec 15:53:09 "mixed" ? 15:53:13 datatypes? 15:53:36 I have a feeling everything in the real world is gonna look different as I walk home today 15:53:36 hahha 15:53:42 well... roughly 15:54:03 it requires 2 single cells as multiplicands 15:54:19 and returns a double cell as a result 15:54:36 cell size is implementation dependant 15:54:43 faster than multiplying normally, I assume 15:54:56 ? 15:55:00 n/m 15:55:01 dont think so 15:55:09 what do u mean by normaly? 15:55:10 I dont assume 15:55:15 nevermind.. 15:55:18 k 15:55:21 was paddling up the wrong creek 15:55:45 so timer is a double cell? 15:57:56 ah ok, cell=word 15:57:58 :) 15:57:59 hhe 15:58:05 the non-froth word 15:58:07 s/ro/or 15:58:21 well, yes 15:58:42 but it is refered 2 as cell 2 avoid this confusion 15:59:00 right. 15:59:06 d+ = double addition ? 15:59:15 2! = store 2 cells? 15:59:23 damn.. interacting with the linux sound drivers is harder than just writing my own driver 15:59:59 ahh,, im learning more and more.. this is addictive 16:00:34 2! ( x y addr -- ) y -> [addr], x -> [addr+cell] I think. 16:00:54 But...I'm just a kiddie with a brain screwed up by Forth. 16:01:20 wow, I don't know why all this jibberish is making sense 16:01:25 maybe it's al lthe nootropes I ate 16:01:26 haha 16:08:32 Good night, and may the Forth be with you. 16:08:37 likewise 16:08:48 * Robert takes his dark book of magic and leaves. 16:08:54 autoxr: yep. I use PB too :) 16:08:58 misfire 16:09:47 rofl.. look what I stumbled on.. 16:09:49 Terminus is an excellent game that will offer you hours and hours of enjoyment. Its open ended and persistent universe will suck you in and not let you go. If you want to quit sleeping, get fired from your job and have your significant other leave you, then I highly recommend it. 16:10:05 (end quote) 16:10:09 i thought it looked interesting 16:10:14 Hah. 16:10:16 and i _really_ want to play it 16:10:22 Tried the game yet? 16:10:24 Hehe. 16:10:30 but i'm not yet ready to sacrifice my life :D 16:10:30 Of course you do :-) 16:10:38 nope, and i won't because i don't have the hardware :) 16:10:57 it sounds fun though 16:11:02 tcn: hmm, your hardware is prolly faster than mine, therefore i can't play it :( 16:11:17 I have a P200. Is that enough? 16:11:18 i have no work, no wife, and as u can c im awake ;) 16:11:23 * thin laughs at all the forthers in this channel "i have the slowest computer!" :D 16:11:35 that's my assumption anyways ;P 16:12:11 the slowest desktop pc computer used extensively for connecting to irc, web browsing, etc (just to get specific) 16:12:13 it says you need a celeron 400 with a voodoo 3d card 16:12:13 thin: u have P200 while i have P2... mine dumber ;) 16:12:22 no, i have a p133 mhz 16:12:26 with 32 megs of ram 16:12:39 with 64 megs, you need for terminus :) 16:12:40 Hooray! 16:12:46 and X11 and glibc2.1 16:12:48 When will you discover the 80s are over? 16:12:53 http://www.thelinuxgurus.org/terminus.shtml 16:13:46 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@ip68-9-70-120.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 16:13:52 oh i see why i got it.. searching for full-duplex sound programming info. You can talk to each other on online games if you have a full duplex soundcard :) 16:14:30 thin: my general-use PC is a p100 with 24MB 16:14:36 tcn: terminus would be like mudding, about as addictive but with graphics and cooler maybe ;P 16:15:01 xef4: ooh! looks like you've got the best comp on #forth :) 16:15:11 i used to have a p75 16:15:17 mud's are just as good then :) 16:15:32 better cause you can even do them with an 8-bit micro 16:16:15 tcn, do you know anything about Motorola Exorterms? 16:16:17 wow, terminus is so absorbing you could forget to take a piss 16:16:25 xef4: nope 16:16:43 do you even know what they are? 16:17:03 thin: there r some 386dx40s in the room beside me... 16:17:17 thin: so, beware! ;) 16:17:24 onetom: heheh :D 16:17:25 hah, i own a 386dx33 16:17:38 i want a 386 16:17:42 thin: actually i really plan 2 use them as an xterminal 16:17:48 tcn: apparently some sort of intelligent terminal with MC6800L and 4KB ram. Google returns next to nothing on them 16:17:54 naw, i'd run linux on my 386 16:17:55 or qnx 16:18:02 i want my forth to be able to run without much change on my ti83 16:18:04 or later on.. a forth os! ;P 16:18:14 thin: if you leave near massachussetts, you can come get my 386 :) 16:18:34 thin: ive tried enth 0.2.x on it yet. it works fine 16:18:53 oh, i was designing a TI85 forth.. the memory management is a pain in the ass 16:18:55 CrowKiller: lol 16:19:26 * onetom is looking 4 his good old zx81... ;p 16:19:44 tcn: heh, does the 386 come with a monitor? :P 16:20:31 yeah, take your pick, a dim 17" or an older 14" with analog controls 16:21:04 thin: i also took screenshots about running X on a 386 w a hercules video card 16:22:26 zx80 liek processors are avaiable in such hardware as a gameboy, or ti graph calculators; now ARMs are everywhere 16:23:23 what's a good little device with a fairly big LCD screen? 16:23:28 and a keyboard 16:23:43 CrowKiller: sure. even, on both sides of my breast.. 16:24:10 tcn: and a keyboard... hah.. 16:24:34 tcn: if u dont want keyb probably palm's r the best 16:24:39 --- join: tathi (~josh@ip68-9-68-213.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 16:26:16 onetom: you can get a nice folding (laptop-like) keyboard for palm 16:26:36 true 16:27:51 I'm dissapointed that Handspring stopped making the Visors (with the expansion bay in the back) 16:27:55 i dunno.. i'm hoping e-ink displays will displace LCD's soon.. i'd like 2 pieces, a screen the size of a sheet of paper, and a keyboard with the computer inside it like the C64 16:28:05 yeah, those nice folding keyboards are extremely important to me if i ever get some pda or palm or whatever 16:28:18 well the folds are really annoying 16:28:27 i wanna be able to write books on the pda/palm/whatever 16:28:32 or irc 16:28:41 hm. can e-ink displays work in very high (>100C) ambient temperatures? 16:28:43 or code 16:29:00 i designed a 56-key keyboard with an 8-direction "joystick" in between J N M keys 16:29:11 xef4: dunno 16:29:29 tcn what folds? 16:29:40 tcn: have you seen them 16:29:51 they are as nice as a laptop keyboard 16:29:54 where those folding keyboards foldup, there's a big gap.. pretty annoying 16:30:06 tcn: not the one's I've used 16:30:15 who makes it? 16:30:21 tcn: Targus 16:30:37 you fold it out, then slide the sections together 16:31:05 i see 16:31:10 i find it weird that so many laptop keyboards 16:31:30 hmm, anyone heard of an iPAQ? 16:31:47 i find it weird that so many laptop keyboards (and possibly the foldout ones) use big clicky keys.. 16:32:00 why do all the companies assume we need clicky keys? 16:32:08 as opposed to? 16:32:11 thin: what?? 16:32:13 i don't really need clicky keys 16:32:20 my thinkpad has non-clicky full size keys 16:32:26 thin: we need the tactile feedback 16:32:31 i'm not talking about clicky = noise 16:32:46 i'm talking about clicky as in the tactile thing 16:32:55 herk: well they should make them slightly thinner 16:32:59 like half size 16:33:16 thin: oh, I was wondering what you were complaining about 16:33:24 the height of the keys between the keyboard and the fingers = half sie 16:33:35 think: so you know the key is depressed enough to register a keypress 16:33:37 or maybe just make the whole keyboard flat 16:33:58 with no tactile feedback at all 16:34:04 except some bumps 16:34:11 that go click 16:34:15 you know what i mean? 16:34:22 thin: have you seen a targus folding keyboard? the whole thing folded (4 layers of keyboard) is 3/4 of an inch 16:34:28 including the case 16:34:30 i noticed that standard keys are 3/4 x 3/4 inch.. so all you foreigners are using a keyboard determined by our obsolete units of measurement :) 16:34:52 have you ever dealt with some flat keyboard? like the ones that come with the children fake-laptops? 16:34:57 that means that the keys and the backing together aren't much more than 1/8th inch thick 16:35:10 * tcn nods.. they suck 16:35:39 eh? 1/8th thick is good 16:36:11 if you think 1/8th is good, buy a Sinclair. I like my tactile keys. 16:36:50 well i'm talking more about portable keyboards 16:36:53 or laptop keyboards 16:37:58 standard keyboards are good but i'd get rid of the f-keys, cursor keys, number pad, and put a joystick in the center.. 16:38:17 so i don't have to move my hands back and forth to move the cursor 16:38:27 tcn: different from the "joystick" on the ibm trackpoints? 16:38:29 tcn: why do you want your joystick attached to your keyboard? 16:38:51 more like a nintendo controller pad.. the old style 16:39:15 thin: check out apples new laptops, and the Targus folding keyboard 16:39:35 thin: they are pretty flat 16:39:44 hahah.. the iPAD driver for that folding keyboard is 72k.. wtf? 16:40:00 so a joyswitch? I would still want some sort of analogue controller.. 16:40:09 yeah 16:40:31 tcn: interesting idea. I've never tried controlling tho pointer with a joystick though... it would work nicely in an ergenomic (split) keyboard 16:40:34 a joyswitch is simple to build, that's why 16:40:57 it could be like the trackpoint, just a tiny little stick in between the keys 16:41:07 tcn: my solution was to simply do away with the mouse :) 16:41:15 yeah 16:41:31 this joyswitch would be just like the 8 cursor keys 16:41:35 I rarely use it except for copy and paste between applications 16:42:39 i wonder if it would be easier to buy 56 microswitches, or build a 7x8 grid.. 16:42:40 and drawing 16:42:40 I would rather have a modifier or a toggle that would make the keys under my right hand act as arrow keys 16:44:21 .. or a chorded keyboard with a modifier for pitch/yaw/roll of the whole controller to act as a joystick 16:44:44 oh yeah, that Stowaway keyboard doesn't have any of the keys added in the last 20 years either.. 16:46:03 tcn: I don't know what you would do wit them in PalmOS anyway... 16:46:55 heh 16:47:54 I think the stowaway is great. 16:48:11 I had that in one pocket, and a visor in my other, and I was walking around with a laptop 16:48:22 in my pockets 16:48:25 cool.. 16:48:26 basically 16:49:24 now if only you had one of those displays that clips onto your eyeglasses, so it's 320x200 or 640x480, COLOR, instead of 128x128 or whatever the Palm is. 16:49:58 i bet you could use one of them with a PC104 (?) single board pc 16:51:16 theres a new motherboard from via 16:51:20 a new system indeed 16:51:26 mini ITX 16:51:31 about 1000 bogomips 16:51:39 power needed: 5W 16:51:43 pocket sized? 16:51:57 around the size of pc104 16:52:10 i dont recall the area but its small 16:52:57 perfect system for remote attacking insitutions and networks: you hide it somewhere, no fan, no noise, perfectly stealth ;p 16:53:16 5w, you can use a ups with a solar charger to power it lol 16:53:35 haha 16:53:59 we used to talk about doing that in college.. just sneak a packet sniffer in there.. 16:54:50 and with the huge growth of the "IT industry" fueled by morons, security has actually gotten worse :) 16:55:22 so you've got windows networks sending passwords practially in the clear 16:57:34 Crow: what does it cost? 16:57:47 I saw it in a linux journal 16:57:52 cant remember the name 16:58:01 the review was 10/10 16:58:14 tcn: people do that with Dreamcasts 16:58:38 i would to do that with my ti ;p 17:00:03 hm, use dreamcasts for packet sniffing? heh 17:03:46 dreamcasts run linux or bsd 17:04:08 anyway I would be happy if my gba could do that ;p 17:10:44 CrowKiller: do you have a url for this 5w chip? 17:12:29 try mini-itx.com or via.com 17:14:32 heh.. this thing is overkill for me.. 800mhz.. 1GB RAM.. crazy 17:15:10 anyway i gotta go take care of some things in the real world 17:15:21 take care 17:15:22 --- quit: tcn ("Leaving") 17:20:54 nooo! 17:20:58 i wanted to talk to tcn 17:20:59 bah :P 17:21:07 cause i'm reading the backlog 17:21:14 and finding things to bring up 17:21:50 --- join: Speuler (~l@p3EE29484.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 17:28:27 i remeber a url from the via website 17:28:58 mini-itx it is :) 18:10:02 --- part: XeF4 left #forth 18:35:08 futhin: http://www.beta4.com/seaside/tutorials/tutorial1.html 18:36:38 futhin: or u can also take a look @ zope's (zope.org) DTML or TAL if u wish 2 get ideas for FML 18:39:46 --- quit: Fractal ("BitchX: cleaner, drier, protects even better") 18:39:58 --- join: Fractal (fzazz@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth 18:51:21 --- join: galexand (galexand@207-pool10.ras10.ncral.tii-dial.net) joined #forth 18:51:28 ot said you guys are cool 18:51:46 hmmmm none of you know me from a flamewar about mup21 docs on the misc list do you? 18:57:17 --- quit: sif (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 18:57:17 --- quit: OrngeTide (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 18:57:17 --- quit: thin (card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 18:57:35 --- join: thin (thin@h24-64-175-61.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 19:02:38 galexand: welcome 19:03:32 hey herkamire 19:04:09 robert: why not put a forth machine on the AVR? that'll save you the time of implementing a forth ontop of it 19:05:07 is zope opensource? 19:09:42 --- join: i440r (~mark4@1Cust252.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 19:19:15 herkamire: i think so 19:19:44 finally :) I had to use google to find their license. 19:20:22 and it is opensource. not GPL, but they say that the FSF has designated it GPL compatible. cool 19:20:25 hey galexand: hi, don't know know you from any flameware about mup21 docs.. wanna tell me what it was about? ;) 19:24:32 --- quit: Miciah (Success) 19:26:15 --- join: Miciah (~Didle@NBN-TNT2-pool1-221.coastalnet.com) joined #forth 19:27:23 hi miciah :) 19:31:11 thin, i asked some questions about the mup21 because the documentation is so poor, and jeff fox got all defensive and started screaming about how he's such a patient teacher but nobody ever learns 19:31:28 heh 19:31:36 and i was like "so ... is this a fair way to describe this simple concept that you're upset everyone keeps getting wrong? because this is certainly not the description in the book" 19:31:52 so i finally wrote up a webpage with everything that i learned from the conversation except that arguing with jeff fox is similar to arguing with rms. :/ 19:32:06 cool, url? :) 19:32:25 jeff fox has been to this channel a number of times 19:32:44 http://d-1-200.dhcp-149-159.indiana.edu/misc/ 19:32:48 but he wasn't very responsive to me when i wanted to talk about the future of forth, business of forth, etc.. 19:33:01 maybe he's disillusioned now.. 19:33:05 tired of the whole thing 19:33:11 he's spent a lot of energy 19:33:16 on CLF, etc 19:33:18 i'm really interested in what he's doing but from the inside it looks like there's some definite validity to the claim that he's tried to start a little forth cult. 19:33:26 who is i440r btw. i used to live in bloomington indiana also. 19:33:36 i440r = isforth.clss.net 19:33:48 mark manning IV 19:33:52 hmmmmmm 19:33:56 oh well i don't think i knew him. 19:34:00 he's coding isforth 19:34:09 x86 linux forth coded in asm 19:34:11 i just got isforth :) 19:34:15 the first "pure" forth for linux ;P 19:34:26 i still want it self-hosting, get rid of the gas assembler files. 19:34:31 that's my favorite thing about pygmy. 19:34:38 and my biggest obstacle to writing my own. 19:34:40 gas assembler files ?? 19:34:45 isforth is using nasm 19:34:52 and i440r is working on an assembler for isforth 19:34:52 galexand hi :) 19:34:56 so he can metacompile it 19:35:04 im in nashville :) 19:35:29 yup 19:35:39 galexand you tried isforth ? 19:36:46 galexand: nice looking faq you got there :) 19:37:30 galexand: did you also search all the other messages jeff fox posted, and all the material on ultratechnology to discover all the info about mup21? 19:38:01 argh im badly lagged it seems :P 19:38:28 2 secs 19:38:32 not too bad 19:38:33 :P 19:39:13 [20:41] [i440r PING reply]: 22secs 19:39:14 woah! 19:39:18 that's the second ping response 19:39:23 from when i pinged #forth 19:39:34 i440r: stop downloading pr0n! ;P 19:40:14 im not, its an apt-get dist-upgrade 19:40:18 im all pr0n'd out 19:41:14 galexand you ever use a86/d86 assembler/debugger ? 19:42:23 he must be afk :P 19:44:16 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 19:49:48 i44r yes i have used that -- do you know eric? 19:50:03 i440r, i haven't run it yet but i was looking at it. 19:50:07 nasm gas whatever my point was it wasn't forth ;) 19:50:15 the metacompiler will please me :) 19:50:21 thin, mostly. 19:50:35 er i have used a86, looking at isforth. 19:51:06 galexand thats my take on it too, isforht ISNT a real forth till it has a meta compiler 19:51:06 ive said so many times 19:51:28 galexand you have any experience writing x86 assembler in forth ??? :) 19:51:28 AN asembler i mean 19:51:53 whenever i decide to write a 'real' forth i decide there has to be a good way from the very start to make it very metacompilable and i sit and think and sit and think and then i never write any code at all. it's happened like 4 times now. 19:52:00 i think i should just go ahead and accept that i'm going to clone pygmy forth. 19:52:18 im basing isforht on teh LOOK and FEEL of fpc 19:52:21 but NOT the code heh 19:52:24 no i never wrote an x86 assembler. i wrote an arm assembler in C using what I learned from reading the pygmy source and it was very very easy. 19:52:32 hmmm i should get fpc. 19:52:48 i need to figure out a good way to run a forth on my palm. i'm contemplating giving up and buying one of the linux palmtops. :) 19:52:57 :) 19:53:10 galexand: you should be interested in isforth's assembler that i440r is working on.. it looks very similar to normal assembler "mov ax, bx" but it actually doesn't use parsing.. he uses a trick to parse it the forth way 19:54:02 woopsie galexand 19:54:04 hope i didn't spam you too much 19:54:06 lol 19:54:09 heh. 19:54:14 a trick? i bet he did it just like pygmy did. ;) 19:54:21 i cant handle bask ackwards assembler :P 19:54:43 never could get my head arround it 19:54:50 i made a solitaire game in pygmy that i enjoyed greatly -- i just wrote a few words to move cards around in a linklist and then some to print them and then a couple words to check if a given move is 'legal'. 19:55:10 and then i gave everything a single-character name and declared the function calls to be my ui and it worked great. 19:55:54 what is >r ? 19:55:57 and r> 19:56:01 push and pop? 19:56:02 to r 19:56:10 err yea but push and pop are bad names :P 19:56:17 return stack? 19:56:21 move from parameter stack TO Return stack 19:56:22 >r 19:56:31 yeah push and pop :) 19:56:49 man i've gone forthless too long i think it's time to go back to the fold. 19:56:56 hmmm i wish i had time 19:57:05 galexand who DOES have time hehe 19:57:16 its taken me TWO years to get isforth to where it is now 19:57:38 btw (and i tell everyone this) she can compile about a meg of source per second :P 19:57:58 i wrote a compiler for a c-like language in just a couple months once i decided how it should work. 19:58:04 but i can never convince myself how the whole forth system should look 19:58:34 im not designing isforth, i have a general feel for what i want and im letting IT design itself 19:59:43 man that was a lot of fun to write too 19:59:56 heh 19:59:58 yeah i need another good project 20:00:09 i need hel[ ;) 20:00:13 er help 20:00:15 some of us are interested in a forth os ;P 20:00:36 a pipe dream 20:00:39 i wrote all this code from 12/04/01 to 04/01/02 for my old palmtop and then i got a palm vx and haven't touched the old one since. :/ 20:00:51 a forth os is no pipe dream it's just hard to pick a platform, i think it really wants a forth platform. 20:01:14 machine forth virtual machine 20:01:20 it'll be implemented on top of that i'm guessing 20:01:23 or x86 20:01:38 if it's implemented ontop of the machineforth virtual machine 20:01:39 i would only really respect the machine forth vm if it were intended simply as an emulator for future hardware i think 20:01:45 i want a forth palmtop, i think it could really sing there 20:01:49 it could be pretty portable 20:02:05 the machineforth would just be implemented on other architectures 20:02:10 and the os would run on forthchips natively 20:02:24 and BLAZING FAST :D 20:03:45 aha! 20:03:50 the forth os will be named 20:03:53 ":D" 20:04:15 okay i am having trouble with defer> r> defered ! ....what is on the return stack? 20:04:18 before that 20:04:30 isos 20:04:30 heh 20:04:30 or i-sos :P 20:04:41 the return address 20:04:59 oh hahahahaha 20:05:22 i made the stupid assumption that the code couldn't possibly be right because it looked like you were storing a real return address. 20:05:26 but now it makes perfect sense. 20:05:31 return to 20:05:38 defered @ = 0 20:05:50 i don't even see the point of that syntax but that's really cute :) 20:05:51 yes - defered is zero to start with 20:05:58 0 put on the return stack 20:06:06 er 20:06:09 nevermind 20:06:10 that makes he first mneumonic an effective NOOP until we run the NEXT mneumonic 20:06:22 sometimes i mix up r> and >r 20:06:24 er 20:06:33 r> = get it from return stack 20:06:34 each mneumonic causes the previous one to be interpreted :) 20:06:38 >r = store to return stack 20:06:44 hmm i guess it's even relatively tolerant of 'intervening code' (width 100 [intervening code] endofit) so long as your stack remains balance, that's cool 20:07:18 so it just potentially wastes a stack level during the intervening code 20:07:31 i really want a ptsc1000 or whatever but they seem to have turned entirely into a bullshit company 20:07:38 they wouldn't even answer my email request for specs on their new chip 20:07:56 galexand where do you live now ? 20:07:59 north carolina 20:08:20 heh long way from indiana :P 20:08:24 yeah heh 20:08:31 hahahaha Linux for IGNITE 20:08:33 what the hell 20:08:38 indiana is my adopted home state 20:08:38 does anyone know the inside scoop on ptsc? 20:08:42 where you from? 20:08:43 galexand: the IGNITE chip (the new and improved successor to Sh-Boom) is 15 bucks 20:08:53 originally im from upstate ny 20:09:08 it's 350 mips, 15 bucks 20:09:45 that's far too :) 20:09:57 thin are developer specs available, and is it available in any form other than like bga? 20:10:31 bga? 20:10:44 a bunch of pdfs are available 20:10:46 ball grid array or whatever it is. you know impossible-to-experiment-with surface mount stuff. 20:10:49 and more if you sign up or something 20:10:53 oh really? they must have fixed the site or something. 20:11:03 or maybe it just doesn't show the important links in lynx. last time i couldn't find any dev stuff at all. 20:11:10 go to www.ptsc.com and at the big button that says "download" or whatever 20:11:11 click on that 20:11:27 their site sucks 20:11:41 go here 20:11:52 http://64.186.225.66/ 20:12:25 yup this is exactly what i was looking for. i probably thought it was an ad or something before, not used to clicking on numbered links from professional sites. :) 20:12:27 thanks! 20:13:11 yeah, it's a badly placed link 20:13:15 i didn't even click on it myself 20:13:18 somebody else did 20:13:24 but seriously linux for ignite 20:13:26 and gave me the url to one of the pdfs 20:13:33 jeff would be foaming at the mouth 20:13:50 heh, why? 20:14:15 linux is so bloatware compared to forth, putting it on a misc system doesn't make sense. 20:14:21 but then again ptsc is pretty fat for a misc system i'm sure ignite is fatter. 20:14:37 heh linux is only bloated because of the chosent development language 20:14:53 it is trying too hard to be all things to all people i fear. 20:14:55 it is difficult to NOT be bloated when you develop in C 20:15:02 i don't think forth can succeed in the traditional open source way. 20:15:09 i still consider it the ONLY os worth using 20:15:23 forth INVENTED open source heh 20:16:33 however the OSI (open source institute) has changed the definition of open source 20:16:48 however you want to say it the things that make linux great would not work for forth :) 20:16:57 it doesn't mean the definition of open PLUS the definition of source 20:17:01 it means something totally different 20:17:31 if i was going to do a forth operating system it would be a unix in forth 20:17:39 we could call it fix :) 20:17:49 ewww 20:17:55 because thats what it would do :) 20:17:55 why would you make it unix? 20:18:11 err... you want to make it a windows ???? 20:18:12 heh 20:18:23 i can't think of a good way to make something unixy in forth. 20:18:33 :) 20:18:47 just find a way to define pipes etc in forth and build on that :) 20:18:51 in fact i haven't even /heard/ of a serious attempt at making an all-forth system take advantage of memory protection and preemption in the ways that we all kind of expect. 20:19:17 i kind of like the idea of a normal-ish unixy kernel just running forth as the shell, but i think you'd lose a lot of the advantages if your device drivers weren't in forth. 20:19:32 though maybe if everything was written in forth there was just a wall between 'kernel forth' and 'user forth' then it could be pretty sweet wouldn't it. 20:19:43 heh if linux was coded in forth then "make bzImage" would take 4 seconds max :) 20:19:53 if isforth were teh compiler :) 20:19:57 http://www.art.net/Studios/Hackers/Hopkins/Don/unix-haters/handbook.html 20:20:01 learn why unix sucks ;) 20:20:16 unix haters handbook 20:20:20 gimme that url again when im in x or windows 20:20:39 im kinda busy rite now backing up a busted hard drive 20:20:52 got a loose surface mount thingie on it 20:20:58 unix is like democracy, it sucks so bad, the only thing that sucks worse is the competition. 20:21:00 gotta re-solder it 20:21:21 that's a false analogy cause i don't think there's a democratic country in this world ;P 20:21:40 thin usa is closest, its a democratic republic 20:21:44 cant get better than that 20:22:04 unfortunatly this country is going to hell in a hand-basket because of all the limp wristed liberal bed-wetters 20:22:10 no, that's not quite what i mean 20:22:13 hahahah 20:22:45 damned homosexuals are everywhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 20:22:48 :) 20:23:06 i think we're all most threatened by absurd wealth. 20:23:07 yes... as a christian i must FORGIVE them for being so 20:23:08 but 20:23:17 DONT confuse forgivness with tollerance 20:23:46 hahaha bloomington is the place for youbuddy 20:23:47 the media is highly influentional, and also polticians only show their good side, also lots of truths withheld from the public.. only like 30% of the usa population is voting ? the winner of the presidential election maybe actually has only 10% or 15% of the people for him.. 20:23:59 he's got no "majority consensus" but he would like you to believe so! 20:24:59 thin its a bit fishy when you get 100% voter turnout in certain towns in ILL_annoy too 20:25:17 specially when a large percentage of that percentage is either dead or a convicted criminal 20:25:29 weird how dead criminals always vote democrap 20:25:55 it's not really democratic.. i envision a democratic country as a place where all the voters understand the issues.. perhaps democracy needs computers.. people voting on issues online.. not just presidents, but voting on actual issues.. 20:26:09 i440r: there's only one political party 20:26:16 it's called the demopublican party 20:26:18 :P 20:26:30 thin it used to be that way in this country because only WHITE MALES who own LAND were allowed to vote 20:26:43 now... i have nothing against BLACK males with land voting... 20:27:05 but i dont think women or illiterates should be allowed to vote 20:27:53 women vote on emotion, very few of them use intelect to vote (there are exceptions) 20:28:13 like ayn rand 20:28:16 neway... about isforth... isnt it great ??? :) 20:28:24 it looks ilke ptsc is just pushing the ignite ip, not actual chips 20:28:55 it's inspirational :) 20:29:00 galexand: i emailed them and found out they'll sell 1 ignite chip for 15 bucks plus shipping and handling 20:31:56 hmmm if i can use it then it's a deal. 20:32:59 i recall some guy on here that had some plans to make a forth palm/pda 20:33:09 but not with ignite.. some other processor 20:33:22 it'd be interesting to do it with ignite.. 20:33:37 350 mips is fast isn't it? heh 20:36:05 this machine is 1392.1 bogomips :) 20:36:52 was it orngetide with a rabbit z80? :) 20:37:06 350mips is godly fast but i bet it eats a lot of electricity etc 20:37:19 i like the msp430 20:37:36 thats fast, risk with an orthagonal instruction set and uses next to NOTHING in power 20:37:39 i don't know it. 20:37:43 risC even 20:37:49 packaging is very important to me i don't want to solder surfacemount :) 20:37:49 its a ti chip 20:38:04 heh what you working on ? 20:40:23 /exec/killall isfor 20:40:27 argh 20:41:35 --- join: Forth (~Forth@1Cust252.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 20:41:40 there 20:42:44 i was going to make a sound card for my palm but i'm torn on that issue right now 20:42:57 heh 20:43:04 i shud get a palm :) 20:43:11 i really like my palm :) 20:43:18 99% of the isforht development was done on my laptop heh 20:43:28 but the screen is dying and i need another one and new one might be linux woohoo 20:43:35 well anyways i'm going out so have fun. see ya later. 20:43:36 ive worn away the lettering on most of the keys :) 20:43:51 galexand be regular here :) 20:43:59 we need more #forthers :) 20:44:25 --- quit: galexand ("etc") 20:46:05 bbl 20:46:07 --- quit: i440r ("BitchX: it isn't only my script, its also my client") 20:46:12 --- quit: Forth (Remote closed the connection) 20:54:13 IGNITE is only about 5 watts i think 20:54:17 350 mips, 5 watts 20:54:24 350mips is godly fast but i bet it eats a lot of electricity etc 21:14:38 --- quit: Herkamire ("g'night all") 21:14:59 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 21:27:58 --- join: I440r (mark4@pool-63.52.217.93.ipls.grid.net) joined #forth 21:30:04 --- quit: CrowKiller (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:30:35 hey i440r 21:31:00 galexand left before i could tell him that the IGNITE chips only use 5 watts (i think).. 21:31:11 350mips is godly fast but i bet it eats a lot of electricity etc 21:33:35 Hello, thin. 21:35:59 hi miciah :) 21:36:05 hi Miciah - you new to #forth ? 21:36:22 what are you doing futhin - attracting all kinds of forth weirdos :)))) 21:36:54 i got my forth magnet cranked! 21:37:05 haven't you noticed? like 8 new people in the last week! 21:37:16 :P 21:37:21 Yup, yup, new here. 21:37:43 It appears Irssi's highlight-when-people-say-my-nick feature is case-sensitive... 21:38:07 cool! 21:38:14 so your a forth coder then ? 21:38:31 Nope, but I'm learning Forth. 21:38:57 good ennuff :) 21:39:06 u came to the right place :) 21:39:10 what os u use ? 21:39:23 Debian GNU/Linux unstable, on this computer. 21:39:45 cool! 21:39:49 got isforth ??? :) 21:39:49 Indeed. 21:39:52 No. 21:40:03 I've apt-gotten gforth, but I've barely touched it so far. 21:40:05 i used to mirror debian, its the only linux i would ever run :) 21:40:16 well isforth isnt apt-getable yet 21:41:25 isforth is my linux forth compiler, not finished yet but VERY useable :) 21:50:16 miciah: i've got a forth website at http://sempiternity.org/forth/ 21:50:19 but it's under development 21:50:39 the page full of links is sorted and commented so that could be useful 21:50:47 but it's not yet complete 21:51:52 Miciah 21:52:10 Don't worry, I added 'miciah' to the highlight list. 21:52:16 ahh :) 21:52:43 if only i could type ctrl-G in mirc 21:52:44 ;P 21:53:18 heh 21:54:09 "Virtually all modern CPU's are designed around stacks." Is that right? 21:54:39 eh who knows 21:54:44 it's an ripped off excerpt 21:54:50 and somebody else on here disagreed 21:55:04 some guy who's coding a colorforth for ppc 21:55:14 i forgot the page i got it from 21:55:22 i'm replacing it with my own explanation of forth 21:55:30 'k'. 21:55:46 stuff like "forth is the language of an architecture. it is a virtual machine with two stacks, etc" 21:56:00 It is overall a nice introduction. 21:56:13 miciah: the forth stack kind of represents the assembly level 21:56:19 are you familiar with assembly? 21:56:24 A little. 21:56:35 well here's an exmaple: 21:56:41 mov ax, 1 21:56:45 mov bx, 3 21:56:48 add ax, bx 21:56:53 so ax has 4 now 21:56:54 I've not coded in it, but I can read simple code like that. 21:57:12 yeah, so anyways, it's kind of stacklike already 21:57:23 you put 1 on the stack, then 3 on the stack, then add them 21:57:24 1 3 + 21:58:50 forth is kind of like a macro assembler.. the primitives are kind of like macros, that is, they are blocks of asm code 21:58:59 and they get plugged in when you need them 21:59:14 it's nice because you can string a whole bunch of words together 21:59:18 Syntactically, maybe the asm is a bit like Forth code. 21:59:53 yeah, i think that chuck moore designed forth to reveal the inherent syntax or stack-like properties of asm 22:01:08 well, i got to go to bed, good night all 22:01:14 God natt! 22:04:23 anyone in linxu rite now ? 22:04:30 im in windows till my server is phixed 22:04:49 Eh? I'm running Linux... 22:05:03 can you do a man usleep or something? 22:05:09 Sure. 22:05:13 and tell me if it gives the minimum REAL sleep time ? 22:05:16 void usleep(unsigned long usec); 22:05:18 int usleep(unsigned long usec); /* SUSv2 */ 22:05:26 like if i ask for 1 us what will i REALY get as a minimum 22:05:43 ERRORS 22:05:43 EINTR Interrupted by a signal. 22:05:43 EINVAL usec is not smaller than 1000000. (On systems where that is considered an error.) 22:05:54 Is that helpful? 22:06:23 not realy, if you ask for 1 us delap your gona get 100 ms or something due to latency of the os 22:06:28 or it might be 100us 22:06:32 thats what i need to know :) 22:07:01 try man sleep 22:07:09 i know its in there somewhere 22:07:22 What about http://www.tac.eu.org/cgi-bin/man-cgi?usleep or some thing? 22:08:23 ill look :) 22:11:22 Are you sure the latency is constant enough to be documented? 22:13:28 yes 22:13:42 thers a minimum under linux but i cant remember what it is heh 22:14:20 aha that url is for a netbsd man page, bsd is very very very different :) 22:14:37 Yeah, sorry. 22:14:54 heh 22:14:55 At the bottom apparantly a RedHat-7.0 page can be selected. 22:15:04 aha :) 22:22:19 hey you seen teh sonli clie? 22:22:25 pda... runs palm-os! 22:22:32 can run all palm software 22:22:44 i can get one for $149 NEW 22:23:03 I don't know much about PDAs. 22:23:14 worlds thinest pda, 8 megs ram palmos 4.1 22:23:17 me either :P 22:23:57 Pah. My computer has more RAM than that. Tho it is a bit thicker. 22:25:13 hehe 22:25:21 this is upgradeable too :) 22:25:31 memorystick 22:25:51 Those're like bubble-gum, aren't they? 22:26:26 heh i dunno :) 22:26:38 hope they arent a sticky, wouldnt do the ram port any good :) 22:26:52 Idunno, I hate when my RAM chips come out. 22:27:12 lol, that never happens to me :) 22:27:39 Have you any Lisp experience? 22:27:52 nope 22:28:17 I'm just curious as to whether I'm the only person crazy enough to see similarities between Lisp and Forth. 22:28:41 well chuck moore started with lisp or something 22:29:59 Lisp is the other language I'm currently interested in. 22:30:30 im only interested in forth and assembler :) 22:32:30 I might work more on learning Assembly, but I like portability. 22:33:21 i dont care one iota about portability, its a MYTH 22:33:43 where you read "portable" i read "loss of control over how things get done" 22:34:01 part of why i absolutely HATE the c language 22:34:13 The most portable language there is. 22:34:19 c coders are CRAP coders, they need mommy to hold their hands for them 22:34:31 My mommy doesn't program. 22:34:36 they get the source code, mix it all up, throw it in the compiler and out pops a cake 22:34:52 bleh :P 22:35:11 i dont tar ALL c coders with that brush but 99% of them i do :)_ 22:38:36 But if I one day get an iBook or switch operating systems, assembly code will need much more porting than, say, Forth, Lisp, C, Ruby, or TCL code. 22:43:12 well, lets see 22:43:19 therse not a "linux source" 22:43:24 thers a "linux 238496529384658923 sources" 22:43:35 all interleaved into the same source files via conditional compilation 22:43:43 automatic sphagetti code 22:43:48 instant obfuscation 22:43:53 c is NOT portable 22:44:01 and porting asm is a SNAP 22:45:45 btw, my HATE for teh c language couldnt possibly be stronger. yet it does get stronger and stronger every day 22:46:24 i dont MEAN to make enemies because of it, but im a "say it as i see it" kinda person 22:48:39 Do you know much about the various assembly OSs? 22:49:02 not realy 22:49:16 i tend to avoid most other peoples code 22:49:31 i might download it and look at it briefly but 99% of the time i just discard it heh 22:49:53 That's the impression I get of Forth and assembly programmers. 22:50:06 i have a difficult time reading other peoples source files, they look to me like a rose garden that has been allowed to weed over. 22:50:14 they tend to have a look of being "unkept" to me 22:50:24 if you see my isforth sources you will understand what i mean 22:50:38 They look unkept, too? 22:51:10 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 22:51:23 hi 22:51:35 no 22:51:40 they are well tended :) 22:51:54 isforth.clss.net - grab the sources and read em 22:52:07 first of all, i format them to be readable 22:52:12 second of all i COMMENT my code 22:52:35 if you have thought about your code enough that you can explain it to someone else you have thought about it enough to code it 22:52:37 PERIOD 22:52:54 formatED or will format / comment ? 22:53:20 is where an assembler in forth ? 22:53:45 NOT to add CODE words to dictionary, but to compile separate proggies in ASM 22:53:48 ? 22:54:08 macro-ASM 23:12:31 z 23:12:56 --- quit: Serg_penguin () 23:20:33 Towers of Hanoi don't want to quit. 23:31:53 space 23:31:54 i think 23:32:11 which one were you running 23:32:15 itterative or recursive? 23:32:32 Former. 23:32:34 Space worked. 23:33:35 itterative is my method, i borrowed the display words from peter midnights code tho :) 23:33:50 I saw $20 and soncufed it with &20. 23:35:01 I thought ^T was an odd key to use. 23:35:02 heh 23:35:09 $20 = 32 23:35:12 $ makes it hex 23:35:20 %1011011011 makes it binary 23:35:29 \37714423 makes it octal 23:35:44 ^t ? 23:37:12 $20 is ^T. 23:37:26 aha heh 23:37:26 Rather, &20 is ^T. 23:37:32 $20 is a space :) 23:37:39 Yeah. 23:37:55 'x' is how i do character literals in isforth 23:37:58 not [char] x 23:38:01 but!!!!! 23:38:06 ' ' wont work 23:38:12 use bl or space or $20 23:38:22 ' ' is interpreted as a "tick tick" 23:42:57 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 23:52:14 Privet, serg ;) 23:52:32 Hey to you too, I440r :) 23:52:45 hi 23:52:49 Today I'll get my AVR board!! 23:52:56 * Robert <--- excited. 23:54:50 avr ?? 23:55:03 Yeah, check www.atmel.com 23:55:21 whats AVR briefly ? 23:55:33 A cute little chip family. 23:55:53 Semi-advanced microcontrollers. 23:55:58 A lot better than the PICs ;) 23:56:19 ok\ 23:56:38 can one make universal comp out of it ? 23:56:47 weak one like zx.... 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.08.29