00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.08.28 00:42:59 --- join: Fractal (cwt@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth 02:00:34 --- nick: onetom_ -> onetom 03:59:26 --- join: Speuler (~l@p3E9B8EEA.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 03:59:31 g'day 04:20:36 --- quit: Speuler ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.1") 04:22:38 --- join: Speuler (~l@p3E9B8EEA.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 04:41:28 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 04:41:43 --- quit: Serg_penguin (Client Quit) 04:48:17 --- join: cleverdra (julianf@65.137.37.0) joined #forth 04:53:50 --- join: sif (~sifforth@ip68-9-70-120.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 04:53:50 Type sif: (or /msg sif to play in private) 05:00:07 anyone interested in a forwarding email account yourname@forthfreak.de ? 05:13:10 Not I, Speuler. 06:29:32 --- join: tathi (~josh@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 06:29:33 Speuler: ? why should any1 b interested? 06:29:51 --- quit: Speuler (Connection timed out) 07:13:38 --- join: ASau (ASau@158.250.48.197) joined #forth 07:14:08 Good evening! 07:18:59 --- quit: Fractal (bear.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 07:19:16 evening, ASau. 07:19:42 Who can say, how the word to save image of system is called? 07:19:52 I mean common practice. 07:20:10 "Access denied" to the ANS :) 07:20:58 sif: vlist 07:20:59 ASau: Word not found: vlist 07:21:02 fsave build save ... gforth has something too, though it isn't a native executable image. 07:21:29 ASau - what is 'vlist' supposed to do? 07:21:38 sif: words 07:21:39 ASau: ." .( : if then do loop repeat until exit ... 07:22:19 Aha... 07:22:23 There used to be a less-guarded gforth here, but no more. 07:23:26 I've got an idea... 07:23:45 Something like "sourceless programming". 07:24:04 :) Interesting, I'm not new. :))) 07:24:14 --- join: Fractal (cwt@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth 07:24:58 I have advantage before C.M.: I'm working under OS. 07:25:27 How does an OS made sourceless programming easier? 07:26:21 I can reassign input and output streams, duplicate input stream to save log. 07:26:59 So I can see later, what I've done (wrong/good). 07:27:32 --- quit: Fractal (bear.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 07:27:38 This, of course, is not a pure sourceless. 07:27:47 --- join: Fractal (cwt@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth 07:28:22 Fractal: Hey, can you not flood with join/quit message? 07:28:44 ASau - he isn't. 07:28:45 Fractal: Stop for a while in one state. 07:29:46 Is he testing his modem? 07:31:39 He is doing nothing; OPN is splitting. 07:34:26 --- join: Serg_penguin (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 07:34:33 hi ! 07:35:16 i invented new control word, but dunno how to name it :) 07:35:21 pse help me :) 07:35:23 What does it do? 07:36:04 : ?? ifnot r> 2+ >r then ; 07:36:15 if true, next word is executed 07:36:25 It's been done, and given that exact name. 07:36:44 and what it is ? 07:37:00 The control structure you just described -- it was called '??' 07:37:13 if false, it SKIPS next word 07:37:19 seriosly ? 07:37:43 Wil Baden wrote a portable version of it using EVALUATE macros. 07:38:02 It's on his page as "The Ultimate Question" 07:38:03 what is EVALUATE ? 07:38:25 interprets a string as Forth source. 07:38:38 no such word in both my forts ( pre- dpans94 ) 07:38:40 OK 07:38:47 will do. how ? 07:38:53 EVALUATE is in dpans 07:39:11 what its stack comment ? 07:39:22 ( addr -- ) ? 07:39:23 how? He parsed the input stream and compiled an IF around it -- it works exactly as yours does. 07:39:57 well, not exactly, because yours doesn't parse the input stream. For most cases his and yours are functionally identical. 07:40:10 Serg: And what Forth do you use? 07:40:31 www.forth.ru - gpforth and smal32 07:40:36 Serg - oh, EVALUATE. EVALUATE takes an ANS string, of course: ( addr len ) 07:42:05 does it look at STATE ? f i call EVALUATE from IMMEDIATE word in compile mode, it will compile or execute ? 07:42:06 Serg: I thought gpforth is ANS... 07:42:38 i'll look for EVALUATE, but i never seen it be4re... 07:43:25 Look at Small32 -- it's latter Larionov's work, as I remember. 07:44:11 oh-yeah-ah ! second Russian on #forth ! 07:44:25 where are u from, ASau ? 07:44:28 You are late. 07:44:40 late ??? 07:44:43 I've typed whois earlier :) 07:45:10 ))))))) 07:45:36 Now, I'm sitting in MSU (msu.su). 07:46:22 Serg: Do you read SU.FORTH? 07:46:29 moscow state university ? cool 07:47:06 Serg: Where are you sitting now? 07:47:13 12 hops from me, including gateway 5 feet from me :) 07:47:41 Chertanovo , Moscow district, at work 07:48:04 dunno read, no fido, no inet at home 07:48:11 He'll look at me, and say: "WAH!" 07:48:39 news:fido7.su.forth 07:48:39 pse gimme a news server capable of reading and posting it 07:48:50 news.forth.org.ru 07:49:12 will take news client and try 07:49:52 For posting you require to register on www.fido7.ru, if I remember correct. 07:50:00 You'll see notice. 07:56:02 --- join: Robert_ (~Robert@robost86.tsps1.freenet6.net) joined #forth 07:56:03 --- quit: Robert (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:57:25 --- nick: Robert_ -> Robert 08:15:49 zdrasztfujtye ruszkije tavarisi ;) 08:16:44 zdravstvuj tovaristch onetom! :) 08:23:11 Serg_penguin: u said last day that u hate rodent oriented OSes, right? 08:23:30 Serg_penguin: have u ever tried squeak? 08:23:31 rodent ??? 08:23:35 and u ASau ? 08:24:00 rodent = superclass of the mouse 08:24:17 but probably im wron gand asau said that 08:24:47 Serg_penguin, ASau: homework: squeak.org ! try it! 08:25:07 i had so many annoyng or even devastating misclicks... 08:25:09 its fairly easy 2 try it, so dont b afraid 08:25:20 and did NO destructive mistype on console 08:25:29 heard of one... 08:25:37 c c 08:26:04 im also not a fan of guis, so dont misinterpret me, but still.. 08:26:11 onetom: Looked at it. At first glance looks nice. 08:26:17 so console rulez, rat suxx - for cad only maybe.... 08:26:25 every1 here in #forth should know about squeak, ithink 08:26:33 onetom: Haven't dig it in 08:26:34 why ? 08:26:59 why? well, coz its a brother of forth, ithink 08:27:06 look: 08:27:18 computer ......... human 08:27:48 4th tries 2 pull the computer closer 2 human brain 08:28:31 so it tries 2 reach a "golden midway" starting from the computer side 08:28:46 computer ---> 4th >---- human 08:28:56 computer ---> 4th <---- human 08:29:22 while smalltalk does the same just approaching from the other side 08:29:56 computer -----> smalltalk <-- human 08:30:02 eeer... actually: 08:30:21 computer <---- smalltalk <== human 08:30:34 * cleverdra is totally unenlightened. 08:31:03 computer ==> 4th ----> human 08:32:00 A poll: Which newsreader do you use? 08:32:23 cleverdra: ah, nevermind. http://users.ipa.net/~dwighth/smalltalk/byte_aug81/design_principles_behind_smalltalk.html 08:32:38 I search for text-oriented news reader for DOS-session in Win95. 08:32:43 well, OK. 08:32:53 ASau: none. tho, tin seemed 2 b the most convenient 2 me 08:32:54 ASau - slrn with cygwin 08:33:24 The only machine I can access with minor config abilities. 08:33:44 cleverdra: just try squeak and then we could discuss it 08:34:45 let the screenshots speak insted of me ;) 08:35:01 a specific application in squeak: http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/1794 08:35:09 onetom - I tried it briefly, but this was when I only had 16MB of RAM. It was a little, um, slow. 08:36:14 and a general 1: http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/uploads/683/squeak32.png 08:36:40 cleverdra: then its high time 2 try it again ;) 08:37:23 cleverdra: anyway its still not flashingly fast but this isnt the point 4 now 08:38:11 the whole structure of the system is the main subject u have 2 examine 08:38:55 and u experience how fast can a full, graphical system b built on top of a virtual machine 08:39:41 so probably we dont have 2 b afraid of that a 4thOS being too slow 09:15:26 --- quit: cleverdra (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:20:07 onetom: just because you said "computer ==> 4th ----> human" and "computer ----> smalltalk <-- human" doesn't mean anything, nor does it make it true 09:26:37 time for me to read design principles behind smalltalk 09:28:47 futhin: u will love it ;) 09:30:51 --- join: Serg_pingv (~Z@nat-ch1.nat.comex.ru) joined #forth 09:30:58 re hi 09:31:05 damned timeout... 09:31:27 onetom: i think it's more like "computer -->4th <==== human" or even .. "computer + forth <==== human" :P 09:32:22 or whatever, yeah.. twas just a faint idea... 09:32:47 but the mentioned article enlightens many things.. 09:32:55 --- quit: Serg_penguin (Killed (NickServ (Nickname Enforcement))) 09:33:17 --- nick: Serg_pingv -> Serg_penguin 09:33:33 kicked my time-out ghost 09:42:33 --- quit: Serg_penguin () 09:49:43 --- nick: futhin -> thin 09:50:14 thin[k]! 09:54:22 heh 09:56:19 You can't :-( 09:56:32 ? 09:56:49 BAH @ U lol ROFL~ 09:56:55 I'm just trolling a bit. 09:57:00 * Robert <-- excited :) 09:57:06 why are you excited? 09:57:40 * Robert is going to order an AVR board. New toys rule, I rarley get any :) 10:03:19 onetom: in forth, the words are objects. and the stack is the messaging channel 10:06:38 look at squeak's language: 10:06:39 MorphicEventEncoder 10:06:39 RemoteControlledHandMorph 10:06:39 NetworkTerminalMorph 10:06:39 NebraskaPasteUpMorph 10:06:39 | server |server := NebraskaServer new. 10:06:41 server startListeningOnPort: 9091. 10:06:43 (NebraskaServerMorph new server: server) openInWorld. 10:06:45 NetworkTerminalMorph openAndConnectTo: 'servername' port: 9091 10:06:54 they use longer names for the words 10:06:56 we should too! 10:42:55 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-QuebecCity-ppp81938.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 10:46:59 thin: but they use objects while we r not 10:47:21 onetom: we have an analogy of objects with WORDS 10:47:25 and we shouldnt either 10:47:43 still... 10:48:03 1tom: don't b 2 closed minded w/ words as ojbects ;ppp 10:48:15 They do not use !@#$%^& in words. 10:48:17 i would agree using longer names if we wanna implement such a comlex system 10:48:25 We should not use long words 10:48:37 Do they use vocabs? 10:48:58 Ha! 10:49:01 but until we break 4 simplicity we should avoid them 10:49:33 Switching to vocabularies I can write much more simple. 10:50:03 E.g.: SYSTEM TERMINAL PARAMETERS SET 80 ROWS 42 COLUMNS 10:50:17 MONOCHROME 10:50:24 :P 10:51:00 Sorry. 10:51:29 Oh, no! RIGHT!!! 10:52:40 ? 10:52:48 asau: yeah.. vocabularies is something that should be utilized _really_ effectively 10:52:50 like.. 10:52:54 with a forth operating system 10:52:58 and all sorts of applications running on it 10:53:08 vocabularies becomes a very important thing 10:53:45 Example is from my thoughts of an Forth OS. 10:54:08 ASau: is there such a document published somewhere? 10:54:41 btw, ive test drived squeak's collaboration features... 10:54:45 No. 10:55:11 I'm in deep thinking now. 10:55:11 well.. its terribly slow 4 me, even through a local (ether)net 10:55:20 Later I'll publish it. 10:55:29 ASau: it was a nice example 10:55:54 it has enlightened sg in me.. 10:56:11 the difference between the number of vocs 10:56:33 and the number of the levels of the voc search stack 10:56:48 I use no search stack. 10:57:03 I use tree-organized vocabulary. 10:57:11 As it is in Fig-Forth. 10:57:34 ASau: hmm.. could u teach a bit more about it 2 me? 10:57:55 From this point of view, the file system is like vocabulary: 10:58:25 USR LOCAL BIN file 10:58:38 can be used to open file 10:58:59 onetom: FORTH is a root vocab. 10:59:31 FORTH VOCABULARY V1 makes V1 in FORTH 10:59:35 --- join: Speuler (~l@p3E9B8EEA.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 11:00:14 I prefer to make vocabs IMMEDIATE for the reason to be said of later 11:00:34 k 11:00:54 then: V1 DEFINITIONS VOCAB V2 V2 DEFINITIONS VOCAB V3 11:01:05 We cons'ed this: 11:01:09 FORTH 11:01:10 go on. (i still cant envision how can u get rid of a search stack..) 11:01:12 FORTH V1 11:01:18 FORTH V1 V2 11:01:24 FORTH V1 V2 V3 11:01:48 then: VOCAB V4 adds 11:01:56 FORTH V1 V2 V4 11:02:16 FORTH VOCAB V5 adds 11:02:18 FORTH V2 11:02:32 like a tree in file system 11:02:36 --- quit: Robert (Remote closed the connection) 11:03:07 its okay, but this means 11:03:12 but you see current ( CONTEXT ) level and any lower level up to root ( FORTH ). 11:03:41 u cant do the function of .. in an fs on vocs? 11:04:06 --- quit: wossname ("well, here goes nothing") 11:04:09 nah.. how? 11:04:11 I'm thinking currently on this. 11:04:26 May be it isn't needed. 11:04:41 this "searching the lower levels" feature is the 1 11:04:52 what is usually realized by a voc-stack 11:05:38 I can implement a voc-stack only for doing ".." 11:05:59 At this time I see no usage except for ".." 11:06:20 k, but how can u implement the search facility? 11:06:37 It is automatic. 11:06:47 It is implemented in Fig-Forth. 11:07:09 sure, but how? 11:07:23 iguess, via a voc-stack ;p 11:08:00 The first word of newly created voc is linked through LF to the space (" ") word of current voc. 11:08:31 CURRENT @ @ is NFA of latest word defined. 11:08:58 CONTEXT @ @ is NFA of first word to start of. 11:09:37 CONTEXT @ @ is NFA of first word to start search of. 11:09:45 --- join: Robert (~Robert@robost86.tsps1.freenet6.net) joined #forth 11:10:44 Hmm, I've not mentioned. 11:11:12 ....... 11:11:14 In my example some words can be swapped: 11:12:31 SYSTEM TERMINAL PARAMETERS SET 42 COLUMNS MONOCHROME 80 ROWS 11:12:57 with the same result. 11:13:00 aha, thought so 11:13:22 Like a natural language. 11:13:28 but this "space word" and @ @ is still not clear... 11:13:52 @ @ = linked list fetching 11:13:55 But bad natural language -- may be English but not Russian 11:14:41 About space word: there is created a special word in vocabulary 11:14:56 its name consist of one blank char 11:15:05 thin: ah, true :) uknow im still not awake :) 11:15:06 so it cannot be input 11:15:31 aha.. 11:16:28 VOCABULARY VVV creates words VVV and a one-blanked word. 11:16:58 but FIND starts searching from the last defined word.. 11:17:01 This one-blanked one becomes the first word of new voc VVV 11:17:29 FIND starts from CONTEXT @ @ word 11:17:41 not from last defined. 11:17:44 (u should write some implementation example in 4th, ithink..) 11:18:23 There is two working vocs: CURRENT and CONTEXT show on them. 11:18:47 CURRENT shows on voc where new words are defined. 11:18:48 show? 11:19:49 CONTEXT points (this is from Rus. "to show" and "to point" are synonymic) to voc that is searched first. 11:19:56 umean, "CURRENT points on voc"? 11:20:04 hehe :) 11:20:07 yes. 11:20:10 just like in hungarian 11:20:32 show/point = mutatni 11:20:58 At first CONTEXT is searched, then CURRENT, then search stops. 11:21:02 what is the russian translation? smotree ? 11:21:13 pokazyvat' 11:21:40 pokazyvat' == point to/on (I don't know) 11:21:47 aha, c 11:22:17 point == ukazyvat' 11:22:24 pointer == ukazatel' 11:22:36 Point = peka, pointer = pekare. 11:22:42 (Free swedish lesson!) 11:22:47 :)) 11:23:01 Hey onetom, ASau :) 11:23:39 English is a terrible language... 11:24:10 Deutsch is better, but is less known by me. 11:24:35 German is...erhmm...not very easy, imo :) 11:25:18 It's easier: it has word-merging... 11:25:42 it has word-ending forms 11:26:15 it is much closer to Rus. to compare with Eng. 11:27:15 One terrible thing in Eng. is fixed sentence struc.: 11:27:45 actor acts on this 11:27:59 A sad thing. 11:28:01 should we all learn lojban? http://www.lojban.org ;) 11:28:33 I haven't seen it 11:28:40 go to it 11:28:57 the first page on the site describes it 11:29:49 In Rus. we can change emotions when swapping words in sentence. 11:30:26 would it be a good idea for all of us to speak in lojban? ;P 11:31:59 It is an American work. 11:32:25 It doesn't fit Russian and German at first. 11:32:46 I don't think it fits French. 11:33:00 it doesn't fit english 11:33:28 it's not supposed to fit.. dont worry about fairness 11:33:48 If I have different word spelling e.g. in Akkusativ and Genitiv -- it is natural for me 11:34:13 I won't use propositions for this purposes. 11:34:19 * onetom quits the lang lesson. bbl 11:34:27 OK 11:34:55 does any1 know how 2 win in samegame? 11:34:56 I'm tired of it. I don't know Eng. enough for this purpose. 11:35:09 ? 11:35:36 onetom: you just keep getting a higher and higher score.. 11:35:45 i don't think it ends 11:36:10 ' , . a b c d e f g i j k l m n o p r s t u v x y z 11:36:17 my strategy: collect large amounts of points by setting up large interconnected pieces 11:36:44 -- contradiction with Kolmogorov's limit 5 bit/char 11:36:47 asau: that's so that we don't have to use unicode 11:36:49 hm? 11:36:53 nm 11:36:57 i'm afk now heh 11:40:00 thin: but have u ever managed 2 clean up the table totally? 11:42:53 what table 11:44:20 oh 11:44:26 all the stuff? 11:44:32 yeah, i've gone onto level 2 11:45:11 i didn't play samegame in squeak 11:45:43 http://www.yook.de/samegame/ 11:45:45 i played it there 11:45:48 you get 15 bombs 11:45:58 bombs? 11:46:02 what bombs? 11:50:11 you use ctrl-mouse click or some such to destroy a block 11:50:40 ah, c. thats a cheat :) 11:51:29 no, you only get 15 bombs per level 11:51:41 it's almost impossible to advance without using a few bombs 11:52:16 thin: i think samegame as complex as chess.. 12:20:02 --- quit: Speuler (SendQ exceeded) 12:21:02 --- join: Speuler (~l@p3E9B8EEA.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 12:24:24 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@24-197-147-197.charterga.net) joined #forth 12:31:44 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote closed the connection) 12:40:41 --- quit: Speuler (Connection timed out) 12:41:01 --- join: Speuler (~l@pD9502533.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 12:47:04 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 12:49:23 Hey :) 12:49:29 hi :) 12:50:29 work is numbing my mind 12:50:53 I need to think about forth for a bit or something 12:51:19 :) 12:54:16 sif: : fib 0 1 10 0 do dup . swap over + loop 2drop ; fib 12:54:17 Herkamire: 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 12:59:13 onetom: http://w3.one.net/~jweirich/oostuff/forth.html 13:09:01 * onetom chks it 13:11:40 --- quit: ASau () 13:13:05 --- join: ASau (ASau@158.250.48.197) joined #forth 13:14:17 thin: its not bad. its similar 2 a pascal style obj system 13:15:14 it's one of the shortest implementations i've seen 13:15:16 thin: but its static and a static obj system is not really flexible.. 13:15:18 and it's well commented too 13:15:25 thin: there r shorter 1s 13:15:29 hm 13:15:44 brb, phone 13:15:53 mini-oof.fs in gforth 13:15:57 12lines 13:16:16 thin: nice link :) 13:17:58 thin: where's your fu? 13:18:23 dropped it 13:18:27 i think i'm going with this nick 13:18:43 i think it's time for a nick change 13:19:18 do you like it when people don't know who you are? 13:19:37 most people know who i am 13:19:49 it's a nick change now 13:19:55 i just got tired of "futhin" 13:20:10 ok 13:20:25 thin: did you do any work on FML? 13:21:17 thin: i liked futhin more 13:21:43 not yet, i haven't really done much forth stuff since saturday, because of work and other things 13:22:59 onetom: heh :) me too 13:25:50 is there a document that hints about what sort of thing FML is somewhere? 13:25:58 nope 13:26:30 only the chat logs of chuck moore's interview on here 13:28:46 somewhere on ultratechnology 13:28:57 google "fml site:ultratechnology.com" maybe 13:29:47 were you thinking of making a browser and a server? 13:29:56 --- join: djones (~djones@206.157.224.254) joined #forth 13:30:09 or hosting your files with a regular webserver (eg apache) 13:30:37 no idea 13:30:47 forth could take on many different properties 13:30:53 it could become something like .php 13:30:55 I'll say :) 13:31:04 or it could become like java 13:31:09 yeah :) I wrote a little thing like PHP 13:31:10 eww 13:31:12 or whatever.. 13:31:28 or it could be something like ASP ? 13:31:32 eww 13:31:50 asp and php are the same sort of thing 13:32:05 blah... php is way better than ASP. ASP is just crusty. 13:32:12 so is Java 13:32:16 :-) 13:32:23 that's my impression of PHP and asp... 13:32:36 I don't know much about asp except taht it's a lot like javascript 13:32:40 yeah, i was just throwing that out there without a clue ;P 13:32:52 I personally enjoy PHP... I think it's great. 13:33:07 yeah :) it's a pleasant cludge 13:34:17 however, if you use if for more than 2 hours at a time, it gets a bit boring. 13:35:19 the story of my... job 13:35:40 same here 13:35:45 tis why i'm on IRC at work. 13:36:06 i am forgetting another property that forth could have.. 13:36:13 1) php 13:36:23 2) ?? 13:36:39 2) webserver code, wiki, etc.. ? 13:36:51 perl? 13:36:55 I was thinking FML could be a simple forth with a bunch of usefull words defined. 13:37:16 perl & .exe files fall under the php category 13:37:47 it could be served to be executed on the client, or, someone could write an apache plugin or something that would execute it, and convert it to HTML and serve that to people with conventional browsers. 13:38:08 you could write a nose picker. 13:38:28 sounds useful to me right now... 13:38:29 I havn't gotten to making robot's yet. :-P 13:38:40